57020 réponses à ce sujet

[highcastle]

@Shorts: Sadly, we don't know much about Anders' resistance movement beyond he was part of one. He deliberately keeps Hawke in the dark. It's possible the Mage Underground is a couple of guys hanging out in somebody's basement. It's equally possible they're a loosely organized rebellion with a lot of members. In that case, it's possible Anders was recognized as their leader. It's equally possible he was just on the fringes. We just don't know.

As for the Cumberland thing, we don't know if it's sanctioned by the Circle or not (or if we do, I missed out on hearing about it). If it is, then once more there's no chance for a rebel mage to be recognized.

Edit for ToP:


Silver-Raven's commission of Noah/Anders for me.

Modifié par highcastle, 03 juillet 2011 - 05:38 .

[SurelyForth]

Except I believe that the Kirkwall mages were always going to die, no matter what Anders did. So Anders didn't remove the right for them to keep doing what they're doing, he just forced the decision between fighting or death a bit sooner. And he gave them a reason to fight when under different circumstances, they might not have been as...inspired (not the exact word I want, but close enough).

[leggywillow]

SurelyForth wrote...

Except I believe that the Kirkwall mages were always going to die, no matter what Anders did. So Anders didn't remove the right for them to keep doing what they're doing, he just forced the decision between fighting or death a bit sooner. And he gave them a reason to fight when under different circumstances, they might not have been as...inspired (not the exact word I want, but close enough).

I also believe this is true.  Ser Karras (I think) says that Meredith has sent for the Rite of Annulment about halfway through Act 3, well before the Chantry goes boom.  You can argue that just because she sent for it doesn't mean it will be approved, but considering what Sister Nightingale says when you meet her... seems like the Divine's choices were annulling the Circle or declaring a Divine March on Kirkwall.

[upsettingshorts]

highcastle wrote...

We just don't know.

You raise fair points about the Mage Underground, though you'd think if they were a significant force at all they'd have a post Chantry Jenga'ing plan for a follow up strike.  There's no evidence any mages are prepared for what happens at all. 

highcastle wrote...

As for the Cumberland thing, we don't know if it's sanctioned by the Circle or not (or if we do, I missed out on hearing about it). If it is,then once more there's no chance for a rebel mage to be recognized.

True, but Wynne and Anders seemed to take it seriously enough.

SurelyForth wrote...

Except I believe that the Kirkwall mages were always going to die, no matter what Anders did. So Anders didn't remove the right for them to keep doing what they're doing, he just forced the decision between fighting or death a bit sooner.

I'm not sure I understand why that interpretation has any appeal.  It diminishes both Anders' - for being the catalyst - and Elthina's - for being the roadblock - importance, and turns Meredith into something of a force of nature as opposed to just a deeply flawed individual.  

leggywillow wrote...

You can argue that just because she sent for it doesn't mean it will be approved, but considering what Sister Nightingale says when you meet her... seems like the Divine's choices were annulling the Circle or declaring a Divine March on Kirkwall.

I'm not so sure that they - the Chantry - would go with escalation, but they might - absolutely. This just seems like the most boring and unsatisfying way to interpret the story to me.  I recognize however, that this is an entirely subjective position.

That said, I'm not sure "they would have died anyway" would be a legitimate defense in say, a murder trial.  People are still responsible for their actions, even if fate might have led to the same consequences.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 03 juillet 2011 - 05:47 .

[highcastle]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

highcastle wrote...

We just don't know.

You
raise fair points about the Mage Underground, though you'd think if
they were a significant force at all they'd have a post Chantry
Jenga'ing plan for a follow up strike.  There's no evidence any mages
are prepared for what happens at all. 

highcastle wrote...

As
for the Cumberland thing, we don't know if it's sanctioned by the
Circle or not (or if we do, I missed out on hearing about it). If it is,
then once more there's no chance for a rebel mage to be recognized.

True, but Wynne and Anders seemed to take it seriously enough.

The other Circles all rise up after the fact (at least in the pro-mage ending; I can't speak to the pro-templar one as it holds no appeal for me). This suggests there is some sort of plan in play. Possibly other Underground rebels ready to lead the resistance once Kirkwall goes boom as the catalyst?

And Wynne at least is a Circle mage, indicating why she'd take it seriously. Anders is fresh from the Circle in DAA. He may not think it quite so important once he's cemented as an apostate.

[leggywillow]

highcastle wrote...

@Shorts: Sadly, we don't know much about Anders' resistance movement beyond he was part of one. He deliberately keeps Hawke in the dark. It's possible the Mage Underground is a couple of guys hanging out in somebody's basement. It's equally possible they're a loosely organized rebellion with a lot of members. In that case, it's possible Anders was recognized as their leader. It's equally possible he was just on the fringes. We just don't know.

Hawke: Excuse me, are you the Kirkwall Mage Underground?
Anders: ---- off, we're the Mage Underground of Kirkwall.

[upsettingshorts]

This is somewhat against the flow of conversation but...

highcastle wrote...

 (at least in the pro-mage ending; I can't speak to the pro-templar one as it holds no appeal for me).

I like it in the "I hope we can contain this revolt before it explodes into full scale continental total war in which a lot of people will die horribly" sense.

That such an attempt does ultimately fail isn't something Hawke knows at that point.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 03 juillet 2011 - 05:50 .

[ladyofpayne]

If it was possible I 'd like to see sex scene Anders + MHawke more brutal. Grab him, break his clothes and on the bed. OOOOOOOOOOOO!

[ipgd]

You raise fair points about the Mage Underground, though you'd think if they were a significant force at all they'd have a post Chantry Jenga'ing plan for a follow up strike. There's no evidence any mages are prepared for what happens at all.

The Circle mages, no. We don't know what the underground was up to, though, and they are presumably a different group.

If it was possible I 'd like to see sex scene Anders + MHawke more brutal. Grab him, break his clothes and on the bed. OOOOOOOOOOOO!

what

no

[highcastle]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

This is somewhat against the flow of conversation but...

highcastle wrote...

 (at least in the pro-mage ending; I can't speak to the pro-templar one as it holds no appeal for me).

I like it in the "I hope we can contain this revolt before it explodes into full scale continental total war in which a lot of people will die horribly" sense.

That such an attempt does ultimately fail isn't something Hawke knows at that point.

I could support that, except that to do so requires you to hold a bunch of people innocent of Anders' actions responsible for it. That's a failure of logic I can't make. Especially with a mage or a character whose family consists largely of mages. I just personally can't come up with a good motivation for any of my characters to do this.

Modifié par highcastle, 03 juillet 2011 - 06:04 .

[upsettingshorts]

It's no less difficult an ethical leap to make than implicitly (or explicitly) endorsing terrorism and the destruction of the religious institution the entire continent - for the most part - holds sacred.

That goes back in to what I've said before: You pick terrorism or the police state in the end. It's not pretty either way.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 03 juillet 2011 - 06:12 .

[SurelyForth]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

Except I believe that the Kirkwall mages were always going to die, no matter what Anders did. So Anders didn't remove the right for them to keep doing what they're doing, he just forced the decision between fighting or death a bit sooner.

I'm not sure I understand why that interpretation has any appeal.  It diminishes both Anders' - for being the catalyst - and Elthina's - for being the roadblock - importance, and turns Meredith into something of a force of nature as opposed to just a deeply flawed individual.  

I don't think so. Anders is still a catalyst, because he's the one who did something drastic to ensure that what happened in Kirkwall would be too large to be handwaved or easily forgotten. 

As for Elthina, it shows the failure of her (in)action. In her attempts to balance the needs of everyone, she proved herself an ineffectual enough leader that Meredith felt fine going over her head. It's a counterpoint to those who see Elthina as a voice of reason. Yes, she is reasonable, but she's applying reason to a situation where reason is isn't going to work because of the growing madness of one of the most powerful players. 

And Meredith doesn't have to be a force of nature to get the Annulment, she just needs to be able to present Justinia with a reason, which we know from Leliana shouldn't be too difficult considering the whole Exalted March thing. 

[upsettingshorts]

SurelyForth wrote...

I don't think so. Anders is still a catalyst, because he's the one who did something drastic to ensure that what happened in Kirkwall would be too large to be handwaved or easily forgotten.

I don't see "sped along the inevitable" as a particularly inspiring action.

Meh.

Anyway, unlike some people who say they're done and leaving threads... I'm done and leaving to play some Jade Empire.  Have fun people.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 03 juillet 2011 - 06:21 .

[River5]

ipgd wrote...

Oh, it's this debate again.

Yes, it is...    Isn't Anders just full of awesome!  <3

[beckaliz]

Meredith had already sent off for the Rite of Annulment. She had more a chance to get it than not, due to what's been mentioned about the threat of an Exalted March.

Because of the (possibly deus ex machina? dunno) influence of the idol, she probably would have done it anyway, regardless if her request was denied or accepted.

Some mages surrender. Obviously based on Hawke's sympathy or lack thereof, they have a choice besides fight or die. This lets the player take Hawke fighting with the Templars as sort of "crowd control". That is an oversimplification however, and there are more subtle points to that interpretation I take from it (which have nothing to do with Anders being selfish or not), but Hawke can make Cullen an ally and keep Meredith from going wholesale slaughter on the mages. This is Hawke's influence, but also it helps Cullen decide to defy Meredith. He wouldn't have done so if she had the Rite in hand from the Divine.

Personally I think Anders gave the mages more of a chance than if Meredith had actually had the Rite authorized officially. She loses legitimacy by going outside official channels. So it's more likely that any mages on the fence between "I want to live free" and "they have the right to do this to us because we are monsters, and I trust the Chantry" would be more likely to say, "hey! You're breaking the law! WTF!!"

Anders being selfish... Well, Hawke can say to him, "You're a murderer! The deaths of those in the Chantry and the mages are on YOUR hands!" To which Anders replies that he knows. But he had more strategy than just going after the Templars directly, which I think he would have done if he was going from more of a vengeful perspective. It's not like the sisters in the Chantry beat up and raped mages.

I don't think that making decisions on someone else's behalf because you think you know best is selfish. Arrogant perhaps. Narcissistic? Perhaps. But we really do lack knowledge of ANY input he's had from the Mage underground and mages on the inside. So we don't know what kinds of things they may have said to him to influence his decision.

Maybe it's semantics. But I think it's universally acknowledged that his perception of reality isn't stable at that point. He is taking the decision into his own hands, but I SERIOUSLY doubt he has ANY thought that he's doing it for his OWN good. He says during "Justice" that he thinks mages would be better off in open warfare. So he thinks that fighting and dying is better for THEM, and he never expects Hawke to spare his life, even romanced!

His reality is not the same as everyone else's, so his decision making is flawed, but he is not acting selfishly if he has no aim to personally benefit from the act.

EDIT (this is what I get for posting from my phone):

And really, it's not even semantics. It's people's perceptions of the word "selfish". I say perception, because if you look at the dictionary definition of the word, it doesn't describe who he is and what he does AT ALL. I'm not going to C&P the definition because that's just pedantic.

Modifié par beckaliz, 03 juillet 2011 - 07:14 .

[beckaliz]

highcastle wrote...

Edit for ToP:


Silver-Raven's commission of Noah/Anders for me.

Oh, Noah! <3

"Siiiiigh. Fine, fine, I'll be Viscount! Bastard Brann. *muttermutter*"

[ademska]

whew, glad we're done with the agency-mandate-legitimacy debate ew.

we're about half a page beyond this, but i'd also like to point out to the presumably-gone UpsettingShorts that the most likely reason a mage underground makes no real appearance in the denouement of act 3 is because they've dissipated. anders explicitly states in a dialogue that nearly every free mage he knows has been locked up and/or made tranquil. you may take that as paranoid ramblings, of course, but it's perfectly in-line with meredith's other act 3 actions.

Modifié par ademska, 03 juillet 2011 - 08:11 .

[Evilnor]

ademska wrote...

whew, glad we're done with the agency-mandate-legitimacy debate ew.

we're about half a page beyond this, but i'd also like to point out to the presumably-gone UpsettingShorts that the most likely reason a mage underground makes no real appearance in the denouement of act 3 is because they've dissipated. anders explicitly states in a dialogue that nearly every free mage he knows has been locked up and/or made tranquil. you may take that as paranoid ramblings, of course, but it's perfectly in-line with meredith's other act 3 actions.

It's also established by the start of Act 1 that Kirkwall has a large number of people sympathetic to getting mages out of the Gallows, which means there are probably quite a few members of the Mage Underground who are not mages.  Probably most of them, actually.  By Act 3 when Meredith is the acting Viscount, this would probably be a hanging offense if it wasn't before.  Public executions would either serve to grow the movement or cowe sympathizers into keeping their heads down, and since it's established that the Mage Underground is all but gone by Act 3, I'd lean toward the latter option. 

When all your sympathetic ears are disappearing one by one, either by prison, death, or merely turning away to save themselves, it can be really depressing.  No wonder Anders feels he has to take such drastic measures.

[DreamerM]

Anders doesn't kill Elthina because he wants her dead. He doesn't murder her. He sacrifices her, and everyone else in the Chantry, to his cause.

THAT, I think, is the key difference between Anders and Janders. Anders wouldn't ever have used people like that. Janders can't stop himself.

[beckaliz]

Just for curiosity's sake, where does it say that the mage underground is gone? Is it from one of the codices I haven't bothered reading yet?

[ademska]

beckaliz wrote...

Just for curiosity's sake, where does it say that the mage underground is gone? Is it from one of the codices I haven't bothered reading yet?

it's not a codex entry, it's a dialogue anders has in act 3, i don't remember exactly where. he says something along the lines of, "every mage i know, made tranquil or forced into hiding" under meredith's regime. it logically follows that that includes the mage underground, haha.

[DreamerM]

ademska wrote...

it's not a codex entry, it's a dialogue anders has in act 3, i don't remember exactly where. he says something along the lines of, "every mage i know, made tranquil or forced into hiding" under meredith's regime. it logically follows that that includes the mage underground, haha.

During the "Key to my heart" mission, (which is only available if you're romancing him? I'm not sure) Hawke gives him a key to get into the secret passageway from darktown into the basement of Amell manor (I'm assuming the same basement used to accquire the will in act 1.) If you mention that "war is coming" he'll say "would that it had come sooner" and say that the Mage Underground has been devastated by Meredith's crackdown. He doesn't say it's entirely gone, but I got the impression that it'd been gutted, and that was contributing to Anders's ever-increasing desperation.

[ademska]

DreamerM wrote...
During the "Key to my heart" mission, (which is only available if you're romancing him? I'm not sure) Hawke gives him a key to get into the secret passageway from darktown into the basement of Amell manor (I'm assuming the same basement used to accquire the will in act 1.) If you mention that "war is coming" he'll say "would that it had come sooner" and say that the Mage Underground has been devastated by Meredith's crackdown. He doesn't say it's entirely gone, but I got the impression that it'd been gutted, and that was contributing to Anders's ever-increasing desperation.

thank you! i was sure i wasn't hallucinating. and i'm also fairly certain i quoted his "every mage i know" line verbatim or near it.

yeah, so, mages gone, underground decimated, they're obviously not around to do anything before or after chantry jenga, or be involved with it at all. whatever that contributes to the above argument.

so here's a more superficial question because i am very tired: why do people mod anders' facial hair?

[highcastle]

While Anders may have that dialogue, the mage underground is not comprised solely of mages. The woman who gives you the quests for the underground in Act 2 is not a mage. And Anders is not directly involved in the underground after what happens in Dissent (according to the codices, at least), so he wouldn't really know those mages anymore. I don't think the underground is gone for good, as much as Anders is trying to stay away from them to keep them safe.

[beckaliz]

DreamerM wrote...

ademska wrote...

it's not a codex entry, it's a dialogue anders has in act 3, i don't remember exactly where. he says something along the lines of, "every mage i know, made tranquil or forced into hiding" under meredith's regime. it logically follows that that includes the mage underground, haha.

During the "Key to my heart" mission, (which is only available if you're romancing him? I'm not sure) Hawke gives him a key to get into the secret passageway from darktown into the basement of Amell manor (I'm assuming the same basement used to accquire the will in act 1.) If you mention that "war is coming" he'll say "would that it had come sooner" and say that the Mage Underground has been devastated by Meredith's crackdown. He doesn't say it's entirely gone, but I got the impression that it'd been gutted, and that was contributing to Anders's ever-increasing desperation.

Ohh, I see! Ok. Correm is the only one so far I have romanced Anders with and he's a snarky!Hawke so he was more like "Hey Merril's gone let's get it on :D" <3