57020 réponses à ce sujet

[ademska]

highcastle wrote...

While Anders may have that dialogue, the mage underground is not comprised solely of mages. The woman who gives you the quests for the underground in Act 2 is not a mage. And Anders is not directly involved in the underground after what happens in Dissent (according to the codices, at least), so he wouldn't really know those mages anymore. I don't think the underground is gone for good, as much as Anders is trying to stay away from them to keep them safe.

isn't she gone in act 3? anders talks not only about free mages he knows forced down or out, but of the underground being devastated in general. perhaps it's not gone, but i think it's more likely that by act 3 it's certainly not the active player it once was. i don't know the depth of anders' involvement with them and there's so little information that positing a most likely answer is impossible, but re: the underground itself, i think it's safe to say they're dunzo by act 3.

eta: OOH YAY ummmm um um
linkage instead of pastage for andersbutt

Modifié par ademska, 03 juillet 2011 - 10:17 .

[DreamerM]

highcastle wrote...

While Anders may have that dialogue, the mage underground is not comprised solely of mages. The woman who gives you the quests for the underground in Act 2 is not a mage. And Anders is not directly involved in the underground after what happens in Dissent (according to the codices, at least), so he wouldn't really know those mages anymore. I don't think the underground is gone for good, as much as Anders is trying to stay away from them to keep them safe.

According to the Codex he avoided the Mage Underground after the incident with Ella, but shortly before Act 3, he dove back in with a gusto. According to the Codex it's unclear whether he or Justice is responsible for him taking up the "mage freedom" banner again.

So my guess would be he underestimated how much the Underground had fallen appart in his absence. This would explain how anxious he is.

[highcastle]

DreamerM wrote...

highcastle wrote...

While Anders may have that dialogue, the mage underground is not comprised solely of mages. The woman who gives you the quests for the underground in Act 2 is not a mage. And Anders is not directly involved in the underground after what happens in Dissent (according to the codices, at least), so he wouldn't really know those mages anymore. I don't think the underground is gone for good, as much as Anders is trying to stay away from them to keep them safe.

According to the Codex he avoided the Mage Underground after the incident with Ella, but shortly before Act 3, he dove back in with a gusto. According to the Codex it's unclear whether he or Justice is responsible for him taking up the "mage freedom" banner again.

So my guess would be he underestimated how much the Underground had fallen appart in his absence. This would explain how anxious he is.

I think this interpretation is likely correct, however just to play devil's advocate, the codex text reads:

"After his attack on Ella, Anders lost
interest in the cause of mage revolution. Convinced that he was no
better than an abomination, Anders was determined to gain mastery over
the spirit inside him... or die trying. It is increasingly apparent
that he is losing this struggle. Prone to wild mood swings between deep
melancholy and manic determination, Anders has again taken up the
mantle of mage freedom - though it is unclear whether this decision came
from Anders or Justice." (from the DA Wiki)

So while we know he's taken up the mantle of mage freedom, we don't know he's done so with the Underground again.

ademska wrote...

isn't she gone in act 3? anders talks not
only about free mages he knows forced down or out, but of the
underground being devastated in general. perhaps it's not gone, but i
think it's more likely that by act 3 it's certainly not the active
player it once was. i don't know the depth of anders' involvement with
them and there's so little information that positing a most likely
answer is impossible, but re: the underground itself, i think it's safe
to say they're dunzo by act 3.

Well, she leaves after Act 2, but Hawke was never an integral part in the Underground even if he wanted to be. So it's hard to say how active they are anymore. I agree that it's unlikely they're very powerful or active by the time Act 3 rolls around, else Anders wouldn't have needed to take such drastic measures against the Chantry.

This coincides with my statement to shorts a while back about not knowing Anders' role in the underground. If he was their leader or at least a prominent member, it's not surprising they would have fallen apart without him.

[Evilnor]

I always got the impression that Anders was a fringe member at best for the Mage Underground and that they didn't necessarily trust him. That's what I read into the codex entries and quest dialogues on my first playthrough, anyway. It was, after all, there well before Anders ever got there, with established smuggling routes and everything. And the entire dialogue around the Dissent quest in act 2 made me think he was doing something he wasn't supposed to. It's certainly established that he helped them in general, though.

[SidheKate]

DreamerM wrote...

During the "Key to my heart" mission, (which is only available if you're romancing him? I'm not sure) Hawke gives him a key to get into the secret passageway from darktown into the basement of Amell manor (I'm assuming the same basement used to accquire the will in act 1.) If you mention that "war is coming" he'll say "would that it had come sooner" and say that the Mage Underground has been devastated by Meredith's crackdown. He doesn't say it's entirely gone, but I got the impression that it'd been gutted, and that was contributing to Anders's ever-increasing desperation.

If you're not romanching him, his "check in" dialog at the beginning of Act 3 includes him saying that all of the mages of the underground have been 1) captured 2) killed or 3) turned to blood magic in their desperation. And hence all the mages not locked in the tower that Hawke meets in Act 3 are blood mages.

[legbamel]

SurelyForth wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...
They didn't have to defend themselves

Wat.

It's exactly what I said? They didn't have to defend themselves, and I've seen people expressing disdain for the fact that they did defend themselves. If you annul the Circle in Ferelden, there's no mention of the mages there fighting back. It's part and parcel of being a mage under the Chantry. You're imprisoned, you have to take the Harrowing or be made tranquil, and at any time your life could be ended because of something you're completely innocent of doing.

But the mages in the Ferelden Circle had to have been pretty demoralized by the events immediately prior, not to mention that a lot of them were already dead and a lot of the survivors were blood mages (some of whom were likely as shocked by thte woman you can spare or kill on your way up the tower to save Cullen stop Uldred at the lengths to which he went).  That's not the same situa...oh, wait.  Okay, it's not quite the same.  Actually, I don't remember ever anulling the Circle.  Do you ever go back or see the people who were in that little foyer?  Were they killed as well?

elvinor wrote...
I always got the impression that Anders was a fringe member at best for
the Mage Underground and that they didn't necessarily trust him. That's
what I read into the codex entries and quest dialogues on my first
playthrough, anyway. It was, after all, there well before Anders ever
got there, with established smuggling routes and everything. And the
entire dialogue around the Dissent quest in act 2 made me think he was
doing something he wasn't supposed to. It's certainly established that
he helped them in general, though.

He always struck me as the kind of guy who would thrust himself into a group about which he felt passionate no matter how the other member felt about him.  He proabably got all of the really crappy and hard jobs because he'd do them and be excited about it while the other members rolled their eyes and "stood watch" at a nearby coffee shop with a big window.  And in Dissent he was doing something he wasn't supposed to do: he was sneaking into the Gallows not to sneak out a mage but to confront Templars.

Modifié par legbamel, 04 juillet 2011 - 12:04 .

[upsettingshorts]

(This is a Jade Empire coffee break)

Regarding the Mage Underground... I would like to have, you know, seen them. For reasons that have to do with the earlier discussion and because Dragon Age II suffers from a ton of gameplay/story segregation issues. That we basically have to guess and infer from hints in the Codex as to the Underground's relative membership, Anders' status within it, and their overall goals is a problem - far beyond what its vagueness does to weaken anyone's argument that relies on a particular interpretation of their role.

In a Harry Plinkett voice:  In a story about the mages rebelling from the Chantry the role of a resistance movement is important.

I don't think I'll ever be able to come up with a comprehensive list of the number of instances in which the game fails in this way.

(Henpecked Hou's wife would blow up a Chantry)

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 04 juillet 2011 - 12:33 .

[AquilaChrysaetos86]

Hello, accidentaly delurking, and sorry for my random, it's late!

Anyway, ignore this post. I meant to post in the prompt group but am a noob.

So, Anders is a pretty swell guy huh?

Modifié par AquilaChrysaetos86, 04 juillet 2011 - 12:26 .

[upsettingshorts]

AquilaChrysaetos86 wrote...

So, Anders is a pretty swell guy huh?

For a crazy man sure.

[highcastle]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

AquilaChrysaetos86 wrote...

So, Anders is a pretty swell guy huh?

For a crazy man sure.

Has the Anders Thread ever given you the impression we were turned off by crazy?

[AquilaChrysaetos86]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

AquilaChrysaetos86 wrote...

So, Anders is a pretty swell guy huh?

For a crazy man sure.

But that's the best kind!

Edit: @Hi-C - I knew someone would get in there with that! Makes it no less funny.

Modifié par AquilaChrysaetos86, 04 juillet 2011 - 12:37 .

[upsettingshorts]

highcastle wrote...
Has the Anders Thread ever given you the impression we were turned off by crazy?

What's given you the impression I meant that as a serious criticism? 

[ipgd]

I've met crazy men much more swell and agreeable than Anders, for sure. I don't think I'd even place him in the upper brackets.

[DreamerM]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Regarding the Mage Underground... I would like to have, you know, seen them.

There is SO MUCH in this game we should have seen.

We should have seen Anders's deal with Justice.

We should have seen the living conditions in the Mage Circle and the Attrocities committed against mages for ourselves.

We should have seen Janders's real head-ripping power, as opposed to his "glowy and voice-changy" power.

We should have seen (or at least been given some idea) of what the Giant Evil Mirror can do and why everyone is so afraid of it.

We should have gotten to read Anders's manifesto.

We should have had more chances to get to know Meredith and Orsino before Act 3

We should have had the option of turning Anders in to the Templars.

We should have been able to question Elthina about Harrowed mages being made Tranquil against Chantry law.

We should have seen the Mage Underground.

So may should haves.

[upsettingshorts]

That was... kinda what I was saying yes.

[highcastle]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

highcastle wrote...
Has the Anders Thread ever given you the impression we were turned off by crazy?

What's given you the impression I meant that as a serious criticism? 

Oh, I take very little seriously. Probably how I ended up with the thread calling me Hi-C.

[legbamel]

I don't think I'd want to actually read the "manifesto". I suspect it's comprised mostly of unrelated paragraphs scribbled in a moment of inspiration, strike-throughs of the things Justice insisted he include that were unlikely to inspire or sway anyone, and doodles of kittens and rainbows...plus Isabela's crude stick-figure pron. (I don't know why I picture her doing all her little naughty doodles as stick figures with circle boobs but I do.)

[ademska]

what's it with you and the head-ripping? we got to read all about it in its all mortal kombat gory glory, i think blowing up a building with people inside sufficed without added cinematics, especially ones that would cause even more people to give anders a nice present between the shoulderblades.

oh no, but we've been on this discussion path before, haven't we?

Modifié par ademska, 04 juillet 2011 - 01:11 .

[DreamerM]

highcastle wrote...
So while we know he's taken up the mantle of mage freedom, we don't know he's done so with the Underground again.

We don't know he's officially acting with the Mage Underground, that's true, but it is a pretty sure thing that he has at least checked up with them, so he knows how decimated they are.

highcastle wrote...
This coincides with my statement to shorts a while back about not knowing Anders' role in the underground. If he was their leader or at least a prominent member, it's not surprising they would have fallen apart without him.

This is likely. But personally, I think it might be more likely if Anders was himself excluded from the Mage Underground. Or at the very least, his involvement was strictly limited.

The guy flies into a glowy murderous rage when he sees Templars. If I was trying to keep a secret underground mage smuggling opperation a secret, he is exactly the sort of guy I would want to avoid having around. That and his comparatively high profile in Darktown, where the peasantry protects him from the Templars but his free clinic (and his own status as a mage) is the worst kept secret in Kirkwall. Of course people are just going to assume that the apostate in the undercity is going to have ties to the Mage Underground, it's obvious. If I were the ACTUAL mage underground, I'd want to severely limit how deeply he could compromise the opperation should the Templars ever finally put duty before inconvenience.

Anders does tell Hawke in Questioning Beliefs that he fancies himself a leader and thinks he's the one who's going to lead the revolt. But I think that's Justice giving him delusions of grandeur. I have to admit that for all Anders's political drive, I never really understood what he planned on doing, exactly. Before the Kaboom, that is.

Modifié par DreamerM, 04 juillet 2011 - 01:15 .

[DreamerM]

ademska wrote...

what's it with you and the head-ripping?

I am a sick, sad person who revels in blood and messy, messy death. Now you know.

[ipgd]

Blood and messy death are swell when they are appropriate.

[AquilaChrysaetos86]

legbamel wrote...

I don't think I'd want to actually read the "manifesto". I suspect it's comprised mostly of unrelated paragraphs scribbled in a moment of inspiration, strike-throughs of the things Justice insisted he include that were unlikely to inspire or sway anyone, and doodles of kittens and rainbows...plus Isabela's crude stick-figure pron. (I don't know why I picture her doing all her little naughty doodles as stick figures with circle boobs but I do.)

That's not my fault at all is it, with that silly fic I wrote?

And I dunno, the part of the manifesto he reads to Hawke on the rivalry path seems reasonably coherent. I rather thought Justice would take Anders' lead in that regard, given that he was educated in the Circle. He must have some idea of what would and wouldn't be appropriate/effective, at least before he descends too far into madness.

[ademska]

DreamerM wrote...
The guy flies into a glowy murderous rage when he sees Templars. If I was trying to keep a secret underground mage smuggling opperation a secret, he is exactly the sort of guy I would want to avoid having around.

that's not true, though. gameplay and story segregation aside, he only jumps into glowdom during moments of extreme emotional distress about templar stuff. gameplay and story segregation aside, as you can lead him through templar hotbeds without incident, he's perfectly capable of being in the gallows and talking to cullen without getting all literally blue in the face. there are several cutscene instances involving templars where anders holds it together just fine. if anything, glowing rage time is sparing compared to... not glowing rage time.

i'm certainly not one to deny anders' craziness, but i think some people have a tendency to overcharacterize it. he's unstable and self-destructive, but he's not psychopathic by any stretch of the definition. anders isn't a caricature, frothing at the mouth and best kept jacketed in an institution because he can't feed himself.

That and his comparatively high profile in Darktown, where the peasantry protects him from the Templars but his free clinic (and his own status as a mage) is the worst kept secret in Kirkwall. Of course people are just going to assume that the apostate in the undercity is going to have ties to the Mage Underground, it's obvious. If I were the ACTUAL mage underground, I'd want to severely limit how deeply he could compromise the opperation should the Templars ever finally put duty before inconvenience.

now this is a more compelling argument for him not being involved directly in the underground, though my counterargument is that that kind of high-profile altruism is nothing but good for the mage cause. hawke knows who anders is beyond "that healer with the free clinic in darktown", but nobody else does.

i have a great deal of difficulty picturing anders just furiously scribbling notes on paper and begging at the door to be let into the underground clubhouse for six years.

edit: and as far as other people's reactions to him were they afforded an opportunity to get to know him better, bethany certainly has no problem with his attitude. she's very stable, and she finds herself in completely agreement with him in their more political dialogues. i highly, highly doubt that a group of renegade apostates vigilantly fighting for mage freedom would have a problem with anders, especially durings acts 1 and 2 when he's far more pleasant to be around.

Modifié par ademska, 04 juillet 2011 - 01:30 .

[ipgd]

ademska wrote...

anders isn't a caricature, frothing at the mouth and best kept jacketed in an institution because he can't feed himself.

He certainly manages to feed himself in his short story just fine, all right.

[DreamerM]

ipgd wrote...

Blood and messy death are swell when they are appropriate.

I think if there's one place where it could not be more appropriate, it's in the depicition of a Church Bombing.

I think their refusal to show us the carnage caused by Anders's actions is another way this game failed. No, we don't need another reason to murderknife Anders, we get the idea. But even if you don't want to murderknife Anders then you should at the very least have to look the full horror of what he's done right in the face before deciding to validate his actions.

It's like their treatment of Bethany/Carver's death. By keeping all the unpleasent parts offscreen, you're never allowed to have a real emotional reaction to what's happening.

But yeah, this is a debate we've been through before. I don't need any more Rivalry points.