57020 réponses à ce sujet

[DreamerM]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

beckaliz wrote...

@ CGG:

You must link me this Fenders + Hawke. I insist n

Sillyness for Top.


by Rinkara

For some reason (can't imagine why) that reminds me of THIS. (caution, language) (more caution, it's DA2 In a Moment)

[CulturalGeekGirl]

SurelyForth wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Also, love Fenders+Hawke. I've also seen a lot of interesting Alistair + PC + Anders (as a third brought in for fun) fics, though I haven't actually read any of them yet, as they're often really bloody long, with chapters and chapters of angst before the good stuff. I am impatient! 

I wish there was more Alistair + PC + Anders fic. 

Fenders still shreds my brain, and not even the idea of them with a Hawke who has slept with both of them can make it work for me. The only person who has made the presence of Fenris and Anders in the same sexual encounter work for me at all is (NSFW) Rattsu.

EDIT: WOOOO 1900 pages! wagers on when we hit 2000?

I assume that you (and everyone else in this thread) have seen Gone-batty's Turning Point by now? Before I saw it, I was violently against the idea of Fenris+Anders. By the end I was completely and irrevocably hooked. It has nothing NSFW in it, either (mature warnings are for kissing and blood, nothing more.)


it starts with a fight, of course.

My favorite mechanic for Fenders is Anders realizing that what has been done to Fenris is just as unjust as what has been done to mages, and using that realization to allow him to be the bigger man, at least as far as spewing less venom directly toward Fenris. If he does this during the span of the normal game, it does change continuity, of course... but I also don't think it's inherently out of character.

When Anders first loves a Rival!Hawke who fears mages and thinks he's a moron for merging with Justice, he does so in part because he believes that if he can win Hawke over, he can convince anyone. That's what the manifesto kiss scene is about, on a fundamental level... "Please love and accept me! Your love will prove I'm not a monster, and your acceptance will prove that any reasonable person can be turned to my cause!" So for me it can work if Fenris is a stand-in for Rival Hawke, at least at first.

It can also work in the context of a post-game where Fenris and Anders both survive, both helped defend the mages, but neither are romancing Hawke (especially if LikesGirls!Hawke is with Isabella). Because after the chantry goes up, I picture Anders crashing from his manic high under the pressure of having to deal with killing that many innocent people and not paying for it, and finally having that "Hey, I admit that Tevinter is not something to aspire to!" talk I have always wanted from him.

I know this is a cardinal sin, but I often feel that the characters in DA2 act... not unreasonably, per se, but in a way that paints Hawke as even more inactive and foolish than I think is intentional. I know the writing burden was already huge and the wordcount for companions matched that in origins, but the way Fenris and Anders bicker is just... unacceptable to me. Morrigan and Alistair disagreed on reasonable and sensible things: both possessed worldviews regarding certain things that were both entirely reasonable, when viewed from different perspectives. I can't imagine any way to reconcile them with each other. The same thing goes for any of the bickering between any two companions in DA:O and DA:A (their relationships either fundamentally can't evolve or do). But Anders cannot and clearly does not imagine that Tevinter is perfect, the amulet gift convo says as much explicitly. If he were to say to Fenris early on that he understands that Tevinter is bad, and hopes that mages can learn to not repeat those mistakes, and even that he would oppose oppression by mages just as fiercely as oppression of mages it would help everything a great deal, but he doesn't. I've heard explanations as to why him never actually using any of the most logical arguments is in character, but I haven't heard one that resonates with me, at least not in the presence of any Hawke who gives a fig about both of them.

As for Fenders+Hawke, there are several ideas for it that work for me personally, from the "lolzy crackfic" to the "people behaving more reasonably than they do in game." For the former, competing over Hawke leads to sexy situations that Hawke joins in. For the latter, it just involves Hawke actually making them have a conversation that starts with getting them to go back to first principles.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 05 juillet 2011 - 01:47 .

[DreamerM]

Whoops clonepost!

Here, have a Youtube DA2 Spoof instead! 

More language caution

Modifié par DreamerM, 05 juillet 2011 - 01:42 .

[highcastle]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

You can be my wingman any time, highcastle.

You know it.

[SurelyForth]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
My favorite mechanic for Fenders is Anders realizing that what has been done to Fenris is just as unjust as what has been done to mages, and using that realization to allow him to be the bigger man, at least as far as spewing less venom directly toward Fenris. If he does this during the span of the normal game, it does change continuity, of course... but I also don't think it's inherently out of character.

When Anders first loves a Rival!Hawke who fears mages and thinks he's a moron for merging with Justice, he does so in part because he believes that if he can win Hawke over, he can convince anyone. That's what the manifesto kiss scene is about, on a fundamental level... "Please love and accept me! Your love will prove I'm not a monster, and your acceptance will prove that any reasonable person can be turned to my cause!" So for me it can work if Fenris is a stand-in for Rival Hawke, at least at first.

It can also work in the context of a post-game where Fenris and Anders both survive, both helped defend the mages, but neither are romancing Hawke (especially if LikesGirls!Hawke is with Isabella). Because after the chantry goes up, I picture Anders crashing from his manic high under the pressure of having to deal with killing that many innocent people and not paying for it, and finally having that "Hey, I admit that Tevinter is not something to aspire to!" talk I have always wanted from him.

I know this is a cardinal sin, but I often feel that the characters in DA2 act... not unreasonably, per se, but in a way that paints Hawke as even more inactive and foolish than I think is intentional. I know the writing burden was already huge and the wordcount for companions matched that in origins, but the way Fenris and Anders bicker is just... unacceptable to me. Morrigan and Alistair disagreed on reasonable and sensible things: both possessed worldviews regarding certain things that were both entirely reasonable, when viewed from different perspectives. I can't imagine any way to reconcile them with each other. The same thing goes for any of the bickering between any two companions in DA:O and DA:A (their relationships either fundamentally can't evolve or do). But Anders cannot and clearly does not imagine that Tevinter is perfect, the amulet gift convo says as much explicitly. If he were to say to Fenris early on that he understands that Tevinter is bad, and hopes that mages can learn to not repeat those mistakes, and even that he would oppose oppression by mages just as fiercely as oppression of mages it would help everything a great deal, but he doesn't. I've heard explanations as to why him never actually using any of the most logical arguments is in character, but I haven't heard one that resonates with me, at least not in the presence of any Hawke who gives a fig about both of them.

But he doesn't want to play nice with Fenris, because Fenris gives him no reason to. Hawke has to help Anders, at least that once, and he has to on some level appreciate him enough to keep him around. Fenris wouldn't bother to help Anders free Karl, and he certainly wouldn't continue to associate with him after the whole Justice reveal (if Anders was even comfortable enough to share that information with him). 

And I'd say that both Fenris and Anders have reasonable viewpoints considering their upbringings, but they're also self-loathing to a degree and hypocritical. There's just so much poison in their own water, that I can't see them seeking out more without any personal gain to level it out. Hawke, as I said before, is forced by the game to help them in some capacity before they'll commit to her/him. Neither Anders nor Fenris would ever even offer that much to the other, so it makes perfect sense that they never care to see past what the other presents to them. They hate everything the other stands for, neither are selfless enough to help the other without some mediary (ie Hawke) and, as the game progresses, Anders becomes even less accessible and Fenris finds a niche with someone who is comfortable for him (two, actually, if you consider his friendship with Donnic another indicator that he's drawn to stable individuals and not looking to be anyone's one bright light or whatever).

I also think Anders doesn't speak out more openly against Tevinter, especially with Fenris around, because it could be construed as some small admission that what he wants is legitimately fraught with peril. If he plays it neutral, or keeps throwing the Not All Mages Are Like Your Magisters, And They Deserve A Chance To Be Free card, he can avoid saying "Yeah, this could turn out to be not so awesome." 

ETA: To celebrate 1900 pages...art by Pyromaniac

Modifié par SurelyForth, 05 juillet 2011 - 02:25 .

[beckaliz]

@SurelyForth

When does he become friends with Donnic?

[ademska]

SurelyForth wrote...
But he doesn't want to play nice with Fenris, because Fenris gives him no reason to. Hawke has to help Anders, at least that once, and he has to on some level appreciate him enough to keep him around. Fenris wouldn't bother to help Anders free Karl, and he certainly wouldn't continue to associate him after the whole Justice reveal (if Anders was even comfortable enough to share that information with him).

this nails it on the head for me. CGG, you make some very salient points about what anders could do to overcome his barriers and get close to fenris, though i'm not sold on it because justice is implacable, but more importantly it's a two-way street. the reason fenders doesn't work is because it would also require substantial effort on fenris' part to overcome massive trauma and a consequent (valid) viewpoint.

the other massive barrier fenders must cross that so many people ignore is anders' canonical love for hawke. even if shut down early or if romanced and dumped, if fenris is romanced anders still broadcasts his jealousy and protectiveness loud and clear. hawke, on a rival path, IS willing to make those concessions for anders. why would anders fall for anyone else, especially someone like fenris?

fenders just... makes no sense to me in any context no matter how good the writer unless it's complete au and thus holds no appeal.

[ademska]

beckaliz wrote...

@SurelyForth

When does he become friends with Donnic?

in one of the many dialogues where people talk to aveline about donnic and she has no idea what's going on in his life, anders mentions that donnic's in agreement with him about magey stuff.

edit: OH FENRIS my b, yeah, like dreamerm said, he hangs out with fenris to play cards. i thought that entire set of dialogues very interesting and real.

Modifié par ademska, 05 juillet 2011 - 02:42 .

[DreamerM]

beckaliz wrote...

@SurelyForth

When does he become friends with Donnic?

During Party Banter in Act 3, Fenris and Aveline will talk about how Donnic heads over to Fenris's place to play cards. Fenris actually seems to like playing cards: he "never misses" the game that Varric hosts in the Hanged Man.

And if you don't romance either of them, Fenris and Isabella end up "together" all on their own.

So Fenris, perhaps uniquely of Hawke's little team at the end of the game, actually has a fairly happy life going for him. He's got friends, hobbies, his freedom, and even a possible romantic interest. Things are good.

Then the Chantry goes up and Hawke ruins all that. Damnit Hawke.

Modifié par DreamerM, 05 juillet 2011 - 02:49 .

[River5]

beckaliz wrote...

I knew someone online once who liked Frodo x Sam.

*shudder*

Wait?  Frodo and Sam aren't canon? 

*runs and hides* 

(Seriously though, I kept watching all three movies expecting them to kiss...  I was so disappointed when it didn't happen.  The way Sam keeps saying "Mr. Frodo" all the time sounded like he was seriously pinning for him...)

[River5]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Also, love Fenders+Hawke. I've also seen a lot of interesting Alistair + PC + Anders (as a third brought in for fun) fics, though I haven't actually read any of them yet, as they're often really bloody long, with chapters and chapters of angst before the good stuff. I am impatient! 

I wish there was more Alistair + PC + Anders fic. 

Fenders still shreds my brain, and not even the idea of them with a Hawke who has slept with both of them can make it work for me. The only person who has made the presence of Fenris and Anders in the same sexual encounter work for me at all is (NSFW) Rattsu.

EDIT: WOOOO 1900 pages! wagers on when we hit 2000?

I assume that you (and everyone else in this thread) have seen Gone-batty's Turning Point by now? Before I saw it, I was violently against the idea of Fenris+Anders. By the end I was completely and irrevocably hooked. It has nothing NSFW in it, either (mature warnings are for kissing and blood, nothing more.)


it starts with a fight, of course.

I have been completely converted to Fenders by Gone Batty (and that very comic) also...  Better yet, before Fenders, Fenris was directly at the very top of my "most hated characters of Dragon Age EVER".

He had absolutely zero redeeming value whatesoever, and I couldn't relate to him in any way...

And then Gone Batty went and did this...  And as I saw Anders falling in love with Fenris, I did too!  Lol!

So that's pretty terrible to admit, but I'm having a hard time being sympathetic to Fenris unless he is involved in a relationship with Anders...  And, when it is the case, I absolutely LOVE him.

I can like Fenris on his own better now, but never as much.

Alistair and Anders together do not make as much sense because I find them to be too much alike.

Modifié par River5, 05 juillet 2011 - 03:03 .

[beckaliz]

@DreamerM:

Ahhh ok, gotcha. Some of the party banter I miss, for various reasons. And, well, it depends on who you take with you. o_O I've never actually had Aveline and Fenris both in my party at the same time much.

River5 wrote...

beckaliz wrote...

I knew someone online once who liked Frodo x Sam.

*shudder*

Wait?  Frodo and Sam aren't canon?  [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/w00t.png[/smilie]

*runs and hides*  [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/grin.png[/smilie]

(Seriously though, I kept watching all three movies expecting them to kiss...  I was so disappointed when it didn't happen.  The way Sam keeps saying "Mr. Frodo" all the time sounded like he was seriously pinning for him...)

I just want there to be mans out there who can be BFF without being gay. T_T Is that so much to ask for? ;~;

[Heidenreich]

beckaliz wrote...

@DreamerM:

Ahhh ok, gotcha. Some of the party banter I miss, for various reasons. And, well, it depends on who you take with you. o_O I've never actually had Aveline and Fenris both in my party at the same time much.

River5 wrote...

beckaliz wrote...

I knew someone online once who liked Frodo x Sam.

*shudder*

Wait?  Frodo and Sam aren't canon?  [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/w00t.png[/smilie]

*runs and hides*  [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/grin.png[/smilie]

(Seriously though, I kept watching all three movies expecting them to kiss...  I was so disappointed when it didn't happen.  The way Sam keeps saying "Mr. Frodo" all the time sounded like he was seriously pinning for him...)

I just want there to be mans out there who can be BFF without being gay. T_T Is that so much to ask for? ;~;

Nope, not at all. Varric and M!Hawke is a perfect example of the ultimate bromance ;p Actually Fenris was my M!Hawke's BFF 4 lyfe in my "I like chicks" m!hawke playthrough. I also have a  "Dirty hoe-bag who sleeps with every dude in kirkwall, Bela's my ****-hag" playthrough as well. Because he simply must be FESTOONED with ruffles.


It creeps my husband out at just how much enjoyment I get out of my Gender swap Angel Hawke playthrough who bedded Fenris and then ran sobbing, heartbroken, to Anders

[DreamerM]

beckaliz wrote...

Ahhh ok, gotcha. Some of the party banter I miss, for various reasons. And, well, it depends on who you take with you. o_O I've never actually had Aveline and Fenris both in my party at the same time much.

Me neither. Aveline and Fenris are both tanks, so I usually took one or the other, depending on if I needed someone to aborb damage or dish it out.   I noticed that Lyrium Ghost ups Fenris's critical hit chance so I started pumping skill points into his Dexterity and made him the Tank who can land criticals like a Rogue can. Sort of like how my Isabella could double as a Tank just because I upped her attack and defence as well as her Cunning and Dexterity.

Uh, this is off topic.

[Heidenreich]

OKAY so before I go to bed, I'm TOTALLY ninjaing this post to say:

Yami is amazing. *nodnod* I have no idea if she's posted it yet or not, but I'm SLEEPY and it made me giggle!

[ashyraine]

River5 wrote...

beckaliz wrote...

I knew someone online once who liked Frodo x Sam.

*shudder*

Wait?  Frodo and Sam aren't canon? 

*runs and hides* 

(Seriously though, I kept watching all three movies expecting them to kiss...  I was so disappointed when it didn't happen.  The way Sam keeps saying "Mr. Frodo" all the time sounded like he was seriously pinning for him...)

haha I also play Lord of the Rings Online (or well did before DA sucked me in) and there are lots of Frodo/Sam and Gandalf/Hobbits jokes

edit: and ummm.. 1900 pages! Have some gay to celebrate



by the glorious Yamisnuffles

Modifié par ashyraine, 05 juillet 2011 - 06:06 .

[Evilnor]

by runaire

Modifié par Evilnor, 05 juillet 2011 - 07:39 .

[Arquen]

I have to say I can't get on board fenders either. There is just no reality or universe where I see them together like that. Tolerating eachother is hard enough.

From a fenris fan pov I can't see him ever being able to accept what Anders did both with justice and to the chantry. At best I hope they would find a common thread to balance on, but romance? Nope, just don't see it. That being said yaoi fans and slash fans baffle me, but to each their own.

[ademska]

Arquen wrote...
I have to say I can't get on board fenders either. There is just no reality or universe where I see them together like that. Tolerating eachother is hard enough.

From a fenris fan pov I can't see him ever being able to accept what Anders did both with justice and to the chantry. At best I hope they would find a common thread to balance on, but romance? Nope, just don't see it. That being said yaoi fans and slash fans baffle me, but to each their own.

i'm going to bite because i've very tipsy and very bored and have ****** poor judgment right now. why do fans of s/s relationships baffle you anymore than people who ship non-canon heterosexual pairings, if that is in fact what you're implying? if you have a general opinion of people who jump on ships, baller, i gotcha, otherwise

but yeah no fenders is incomprehensible to me. you put it well from a fenris fan's perspective; the chantry bit is especially poignant given sebastian's banters with him, and his gradual respect of what the chantry offers and the templar order. from the perspective of an anders fan, i can't see anders ever falling into an actual sexual relationship with someone whose overbearing character trait is an enduring hatred of mages. hawke on the pro-templar rivalry path still does not approach fenris' vehement beliefs (just as pro-mage friendship hawke does not come close to anders'), and to romance anders hawke must show some sort of affection toward him. just as anders gains friendship if hawke gives fenris to danarius(!!!), so too i imagine fenris would gain friendship if anders could be similarly screwed over. they just really ****ing hate each other

i've seen people give reasoned arguments on how these obstacles can be overcome, but dismissing the very cores of their respective personalities and belief systems, which potentially endure hawke's ribbing for six years without bending, just seems lazy and emphatically out of character.

[kromify]

fenders fics don't do it for me either. gonebatty's drawings do!

[ademska]

kromify wrote...
fenders fics don't do it for me either. gonebatty's drawings do!

blammo!

[Arquen]

Nothing to do with s/s relationships. I personally do not understand why fans immediately put together 2 men or boyish pretty men (yaoi) that in the stories/movies/whatever they are in have no sexual relationship. It isn't about homosexual it is about forcing two people together who have maybe a friendship or an implied bromance and take it to mean explicit sexual relation.

Frodo and sam
Cap'n jack sparrow and will
Name 2 anime men.. anywhere...

It just baffles me why they must always end up making out/ having sex, being in a relationship because... what? Two hot men doing hot stuff is hot? I don't get the appeal is all.

[kromify]

i think fenders was meant to be ironic and then canonballed

[ReiSilver]

Arquen wrote...

Nothing to do with s/s relationships. I personally do not understand why fans immediately put together 2 men or boyish pretty men (yaoi) that in the stories/movies/whatever they are in have no sexual relationship. It isn't about homosexual it is about forcing two people together who have maybe a friendship or an implied bromance and take it to mean explicit sexual relation.

Frodo and sam
Cap'n jack sparrow and will
Name 2 anime men.. anywhere...

It just baffles me why they must always end up making out/ having sex, being in a relationship because... what? Two hot men doing hot stuff is hot? I don't get the appeal is all.

...because it is hot for the fans of it? No seriously, sometimes it's just that shallow and I don't see that as a bad thing when it comes to fan-art/fiction. I'm personally not especially attracted to the female form so looking at art of two guys together works well for me, s/s also allows the audience to decide who they'd rather be identifying with more easily rather then feeling they should be identifying with a specific character because they share that gender. Watching anything romantic used to give me the squicks until I stumbled upon m/m fanart/fiction and after getting into that I was able to broaden out to where het-romance no longer squicked me and I could get into anything regardless of the gender of the characters involved, as long as there was some interesting chemistry. All thanks to slash!

As for the non-canon romance I've always had relationships with guys that started as friendships and then became something more over time, I'd also say it's pretty hard to tell friendly affection from romantic affection from the outside of a relationship. Especially if two friends on-screen have more chemistry then the canon love interests or even just a more interesting dynamic.
Even I don't always 'get' a fandom coupling, other times I wont be pairing characters until a specific scene, then it's suddenly 'hello UST, when did you get here?'. And it goes on both/all sides of the fence in fandom, I've seen quite a few Aveline/Isabella, Fenris/Aveline and Merrill/Isabella floating around the fandom.