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[River5]

Act III banter:

Anders: Not all mages are weak.
Fenris: True. Hawke, for instance, is not weak.
Anders: You specifically don't mention me.
Fenris: That's also true.
Anders: I'll prove to you that I'm not weak.
Fenris: Prove it to yourself. You're convincing no one else.

I do sense a certain yearning for approval here...    After all, why should Anders care what opinion Fenris has of him if he completely hates him, or doesn't care about him one way or another?

And, reading the other exchanges between these two, it seems that Anders keeps trying to convince Fenris that mages aren't all bad, or that his people have suffered just as many injustices as the slaves in Tevinter, mostly.

If not, they are trying to provoke each other.

They only become really mean to each other when it comes to Hawke, or in their specific quests.

Oooh!  TOPS!  Hmmm...  Let's see...  I have nowhere near you guys' talent, but this is my modest contribution to Anders fanart that doesn't involve screenshots or fanfiction...  Lol!

Modifié par River5, 05 juillet 2011 - 07:17 .

[ipgd]

River5 wrote...
I do sense a certain yearning for approval here...    After all, why should Anders care what opinion Fenris has of him if he completely hates him, or doesn't care about him one way or another?

Because being hated doesn't feel that great, even if you hate the person back?

Anders has a very externalized self-image, at any rate. How others view him affects him.

[SurelyForth]

River5 wrote...

Act III banter:

Anders: Not all mages are weak.


Fenris: True. Hawke, for instance, is not weak.
Anders: You specifically don't mention me.
Fenris: That's also true.
Anders: I'll prove to you that I'm not weak.
Fenris: Prove it to yourself. You're convincing no one else.

I do sense a certain yearning for approval here...    After all, why should Anders care what opinion Fenris has of him if he completely hates him, or doesn't care about him one way or another?

And, reading the other exchanges between these two, it seems that Anders keeps trying to convince Fenris that mages aren't all bad, or that his people have suffered just as many injustices as the slaves in Tevinter, mostly.

If not, they are trying to provoke each other.

They only become really mean to each other when it comes to Hawke, or in their specific quests.

I...care what people who I dislike think about me. It's difficult not to when I'm confronted with it on a daily basis.

It's like every child that's been bullied ever. Why should they allow their bullies that power over them? Are they all secretly wanting to bend their bullies over a bar and have their way with them or vice versa? Or is there something in us as people that seeks validation from others and is more likely to be drawn to feedback that reinforces certain negative/positive feelings we have about ourselves?

And, they might only be really mean to each other when it comes to Hawke or during their quests (which isn't true, since the Ella banter isn't during the quest), but it is clearly representative of how they feel about each other.

[ademska]

River5 wrote...
I do sense a certain yearning for approval here...    After all, why should Anders care what opinion Fenris has of him if he completely hates him, or doesn't care about him one way or another?

And, reading the other exchanges between these two, it seems that Anders keeps trying to convince Fenris that mages aren't all bad, or that his people have suffered just as many injustices as the slaves in Tevinter, mostly.

If not, they are trying to provoke each other.

preface: your perspective isn't one of alteration in fic, but of possibility within canon confines, so that's how i'll be arguing in this post.

of course anders tries to convince fenris that mages aren't bad/should be free/etc. anders tries to convince everyone of that - it's... kind of the crux of his character. it's possible to interpret his yearning for fenris' acceptance on a personal level, instead of him trying to sway another vehement mage hater over to his side, but given how anders assimilates the broad plight of mages into his sense of self, it's not likely or very strong a point.

your argument is that romantic love transcends logic, and that's all well and good, but you've sort of led into the problem with that statement here:

They only become really mean to each other when it comes to Hawke, or in their specific quests.

hawke is the love of anders' life, no matter who or what hawke is or does. if you shut anders down early or break up with him later, he still displays extreme jealousy toward hawke's other LIs and extreme trust and love in hawke him/herself. in fic, you might be able to smash down that barrier, but if we're talking about the legitimate possibility of anders and fenris becoming involved, this is an obstacle that is on its face insurmountable. fenris may be capable of moving on, but anders never does. he's such a pretty little creep

and the fact that they are terrible toward each other in their personal quests is not something that should be dismissed so easily. party banter is all well and good (though they're nasty to each other there too), but the true test of their feelings toward one another should be during the times when the spotlight is, you know, on them.

edit: also all the words surely just said

Modifié par ademska, 05 juillet 2011 - 07:30 .

[autumnyte]

ademska wrote...

River5 wrote...
I do sense a certain yearning for approval here...    After all, why should Anders care what opinion Fenris has of him if he completely hates him, or doesn't care about him one way or another?

And, reading the other exchanges between these two, it seems that Anders keeps trying to convince Fenris that mages aren't all bad, or that his people have suffered just as many injustices as the slaves in Tevinter, mostly.

If not, they are trying to provoke each other.

preface: your perspective isn't one of alteration in fic, but of possibility within canon confines, so that's how i'll be arguing in this post.

of course anders tries to convince fenris that mages aren't bad/should be free/etc. anders tries to convince everyone of that - it's... kind of the crux of his character. it's possible to interpret his yearning for fenris' acceptance on a personal level, instead of him trying to sway another vehement mage hater over to his side, but given how anders assimilates the broad plight of mages into his sense of self, it's not likely or very strong a point.

your argument is that romantic love transcends logic, and that's all well and good, but you've sort of led into the problem with that statement here:

They only become really mean to each other when it comes to Hawke, or in their specific quests.

hawke is the love of anders' life, no matter who or what hawke is or does. if you shut anders down early or break up with him later, he still displays extreme jealousy toward hawke's other LIs and extreme trust and love in hawke him/herself. in fic, you might be able to smash down that barrier, but if we're talking about the legitimate possibility of anders and fenris becoming involved, this is an obstacle that is on its face insurmountable. fenris may be capable of moving on, but anders never does. he's such a pretty little creep

and the fact that they are terrible toward each other in their personal quests is not something that should be dismissed so easily. party banter is lovely, but the true test of their feelings toward one another should be during the times when the spotlight is, you know, on them.

I don't think the bolded part is strictly true. If Hawke makes a deal with the demon during Night Terrors, Anders wants nothing to do with her/him romantically. So there is a deal-breaker where Anders is concerned, albeit a rather drastic one.

In terms of Fenris and the Ella situation, its strange that if you take him along during Tranquility, what he says to Anders afterwards is almost verging on sympathy. Then that really nasty, mean banter triggers and it's like WTF Fenris? What happened to "it's not a condemnation"?

[River5]

ademska wrote...

River5 wrote...
I do sense a certain yearning for approval here...    After all, why should Anders care what opinion Fenris has of him if he completely hates him, or doesn't care about him one way or another?

And, reading the other exchanges between these two, it seems that Anders keeps trying to convince Fenris that mages aren't all bad, or that his people have suffered just as many injustices as the slaves in Tevinter, mostly.

If not, they are trying to provoke each other.

preface: your perspective isn't one of alteration in fic, but of possibility within canon confines, so that's how i'll be arguing in this post.

of course anders tries to convince fenris that mages aren't bad/should be free/etc. anders tries to convince everyone of that - it's... kind of the crux of his character. it's possible to interpret his yearning for fenris' acceptance on a personal level, instead of him trying to sway another vehement mage hater over to his side, but given how anders assimilates the broad plight of mages into his sense of self, it's not likely or very strong a point.

your argument is that romantic love transcends logic, and that's all well and good, but you've sort of led into the problem with that statement here:

They only become really mean to each other when it comes to Hawke, or in their specific quests.

hawke is the love of anders' life, no matter who or what hawke is or does. if you shut anders down early or break up with him later, he still displays extreme jealousy toward hawke's other LIs and extreme trust and love in hawke him/herself. in fic, you might be able to smash down that barrier, but if we're talking about the legitimate possibility of anders and fenris becoming involved, this is an obstacle that is on its face insurmountable. fenris may be capable of moving on, but anders never does. he's such a pretty little creep

and the fact that they are terrible toward each other in their personal quests is not something that should be dismissed so easily. party banter is all well and good (though they're nasty to each other there too), but the true test of their feelings toward one another should be during the times when the spotlight is, you know, on them.

edit: also all the words surely just said

Actually, I'm more talking about the possibility for people who came up with the "Fenders" pairing for fanfiction and fanart purposes to interpret Fenris and Anders' behaviors as being "more" than just pure hatred for one another.

It isn't canon.  But by twisting / removing a few events, it becomes somewhat believable.

The game isn't trying to sell us Fenders, that's for sure.  And I would never even have come up with Fenders on my own!  Not in a million years no way!  Lol!

But now that Gone Batty introduced me to it, I just can't UNSEE!  

I've read a lot of posts saying that an Alistair / Anders (for example) pairing would be more believable, but that Fenders makes no sense at all.

That's basically what I've been trying to say since the beginning.  Neither are canon, neither make more sense than the other.  The human mind sees only what it WANTS to see.

If someone REALLY wants to see Fenders, they will see it!

If someone feels like Anders / Alistair will make sense, they'll find arguments (or signs) to convince themselves too.

And trying to say that it makes no sense for Anders and Fenris to fall in love is ludicrous, because "falling in love" (a.k.a. infatuation) has nothing to do with logic; but developing a romantic partnership does.

That's basically my whole point on the issue, that for some reason it seems I just can't manage to explain...  Lol!

Modifié par River5, 05 juillet 2011 - 07:58 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

ademska wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
I've had arguments with friends in real life that have lead us to agreeing that there are certain subjects upon which we disagree at base principles. But there is just enough common ground between Anders and Fenris (both agree that some mages are dangerous and some can be trusted) that there is room to maneuver. They're just both too pig-headed to take that first step. So you need a little push.

and this is what i was getting at before when i mentioned people giving very reasoned, well-written arguments in defense of the possibility of fenders. you recognize that fenders is not possible without changing their interactions within the game, and thus we have a supposition that either (or worse, both) must be willing to overcome their pigheadedness toward the other. i know, i know, it's fic, and you've already stated that you appreciate fic where subtle things are altered to provide an enjoyable experience. i do too. it's within the very nature of fanfic to ticker with presented canon.

however, to me? achieving even the most distant of fenders requires far, far more alteration than anything i've read in hawke/anders stuff, no matter the interpretation of anders or hawke.

i mentioned this last night as well, but now that we're operating within an argument paradigm of alteration in fic for funsies, i'll restate it: the other great obstacle in fenders is that anders falls in love with hawke. now, anyone who's been in fandom more than a day knows its predilection to eliminate the hypoteneuse, but once again you've got a dramatic changing of story events to be overcome, and i don't see the appeal. and since we're speaking in fic terms now versus what's possible or not within canon confines, appeal is everything.

the potential outcome is healthier for anders, maybe, and i understand that's why you like the idea, CGG, but what about fenris? someone, i think surely, said upthread that anders devolves significantly by act 3, especially if not in a relationship with hawke, while fenris has largely begun to progress with his life as a free man. what does this largely impossible relationship bring to the table for him?

For me, one of the important conversations that never happens can only happen with a mage!Hawke, and that's Anders asking Fenris what he would do if the Templars showed up to take Hawke away, if they tried to force Hawke into the circle. If Hawke isn't a mage, there's still a muted version of this idea, which I feel is neglected in mage/templar arguments: if the Templars had their way, Hawke, regardless of class, would never have been born. Fenris would still be running, friendless. Hawke is a physical embodiment of the good that can come from a mage having a family and living outside the circle.

I think they can agree on a lot of things: blood magic is bad, an the temptation of blood magic and posession are the greatest threat to any mage. Mages who fall prey to it must be carefully monitored, if not outright executed (poor Merril). The fact that they disagree about what percentage of mages are likely to turn to blood magic will always be a sticking point, definitely, but that's pretty much the only thing they fundamentally disagree on. 

Fenris gains a number of things: his hate must fade, at least a little, which is something that I consider to be good for him, much in the same way that I believe Velanna's softening is good for her (and this is coming from the perspective of someone who is herself unspeakably angry about what was done to the Dalish). I see Fenris's hatred of mages and hatred of slavery becoming a united purpose that actually makes sense: hatred of those who have power over others abusing that power.

I want to clarify a thing: I don't think that Fenders is better than Fenris/Hawke or Anders/Hawke, in any quantifiable way. I don't think it's even as good for either of them as their relationships with Hawke are. That's why I mostly see it in situations where Hawke is with Isabella, removing all the other options. I also think it's interesting when Hawke is part of a triad, for the same reason: it keeps one of them from being left out in the cold, especially in universes where Isabella skips town and never comes back.

Then again, I'm also fond of a form of love story that most people find completely uninteresting: someone who is still in love with someone they can't have coming to terms with that fact, even if it doesn't mean completely getting over them. For me, you don't need to change the fact that Anders loves Hawke and will always love Hawke in some way. In fact, I wouldn't change that. In my Fenris romancing playthroughs where Anders is alone, I assume he's still in love with Hawke even after he leaves her to go to wherever he ends up (hopefully with someone from Awakenings). I do consider being in love with Hawke a fundamental part of Anders character that I prefer to be unaltered, but in cases where that love is not returned, I don't feel like that completely precludes him ever having another relationship in the future. I once saw a movie about two people who were essentially stalking their exes (their exes were now dating each other) and ended up falling for each other during their frequent interactions where they aided each other in their stalking. Now the movie wasn't great, but I found the premise marvelous. I've seen people who maintained Anders-grade crushes on another person for over a decade, and then eventually realized that the dream of the other person was something they had inflated to crazily idealistic levels, which is what I feel Anders has done in situations where Hawke does not return his love.

I also don't think any of the established relationships in Dragon Age are perfect enough as presented in game to be considered inviolate OTPs for me. But I pretty much have few to no OTPs anymore, anyway.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 05 juillet 2011 - 08:04 .

[SurelyForth]

River5 wrote...
I've read a lot of posts saying that an Alistair / Anders (for example) pairing would be more believable, but that Fenders makes no sense at all.

Except it was in the terms of "threesome with PC" and I even said that I know it's not a thing, but rather the manifestation of my rampant, fangirly love (and a holdover of my canon Warden, whom I have ficced about a lot and who cared/cares a great deal for both of them). I have made no attempts to justify such a pairing because I know it's just fangirly lust. And I'm fine with Fenders as a manifestation of that same lust, but it's attempts to make it seem like it's canon, or that there's any there there at all, when pretty much all indications are otherwise, that makes me think I'm playing a different game than other people.

Also, I'm kind of a Characterization Cop. I don't step outside of canon very often unless there's plenty to back it up, and I have a tendency to avoid fanarts that do.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 05 juillet 2011 - 08:15 .

[ademska]

River5 wrote...
Actually, I'm more talking about the possibility for people who came up with the "Fenders" pairing for fanfiction and fanart purposes to interpret Fenris and Anders' behaviors as being "more" than just pure hatred for one another.

It isn't canon.  But by twisting / removing a few events, it becomes somewhat believable.

The game isn't trying to sell us Fenders, that's for sure.  And I would never even have come up with Fenders on my own!  Not in a million years no way!  Lol!

But now that Gone Batty introduced me to it, I just can't UNSEE!  

I've read a lot of posts saying that an Alistair / Anders (for example) pairing would be more believable, but that Fenders makes no sense at all.

That's basically what I've been trying to say since the beginning.  Neither are canon, neither make more sense than the other.  The human mind sees only what it WANTS to see.

If someone REALLY wants to see Fenders, they will see it!

If someone feels like Anders / Alistair will make sense, they'll find arguments (or signs) to convince themselves too.

And trying to say that it makes no sense for Anders and Fenris to fall in love is ludicrous, because "falling in love" (a.k.a. infatuation) has nothing to do with logic; but developing a romantic partnership does.

That's basically my whole point on the issue, that for some reason it seems I just can't manage to explain...  Lol!

but my point is that you can't interpret it differently without actually changing some aspect of their characters. that's not alternate interpretation, it's straight-up alteration.

alistair/anders is considered possibly more plausible because in the context of awakening were they to meet it would not require any alteration of the core aspects of their characters to be realistic.

perhaps i'd be more inclined to buy that logic =\\= love argument if anders wasn't actually janders, a being whose ability to compromise his core values is almost completely obliterated. he will side with templars at full rivalry, yes, but it's the result of six years of someone he deeply cares about beating him down and ends in suicide. perhaps if we were just talking about two regular people whose personalities and beliefs were diametrically opposed, i could believe it, but this janders.

re: hawke, yes, there is in fact ONE instance that turns anders off hawke, but he still expresses jealousy toward other LIs and trusts hawke with later stuff. he can't compromise his beliefs on blood magic (which aren't incidental to fenris) to be in a relationship with hawke, but it doesn't negate his feelings for hawke.

if someone wants to see fenders, they will, but they probably won't be looking at it through an accurate interpretation of either character. that's the bottom line.

Modifié par ademska, 05 juillet 2011 - 08:41 .

[YamiSnuffles]

Trying... so hard... to stay out... of Fenders... argument! I will argue forever about it and I honestly don't care enough to devote so much time.

So instead, have a cracky shipping comic before I explode:

Dedicated to the lovely SurelyForth who inspired it. <3

Modifié par YamiSnuffles, 05 juillet 2011 - 08:30 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

ademska wrote...
but my point is that you can't interpret it differently without actually changing some aspect of their characters. that's not alternate interpretation, it's straight-up alteration.

if someone wants to see fenders, they will, but they probably won't be looking at it through an accurate interpretation of either character. that's the bottom line.

See, this goes too far for me.

My argument is that their fundamental characters do not have to change, only circumstances need to change. The circumstances are not the character. Fenris and Anders never have cause to have a prolonged discussion about this. They are never put into a situation where they have to interact seriously for a decent period of time.

These changes in circumstances could be something as simple as Fenris being sent on an errand that takes him to Anders' clinic without the presence of Hawke, or something as major as an extended treatment/convalescence that requires Anders and Fenris to spend substantial periods of time together. Pretty much all the good Fenris stories I've read involve a circumstance change without any character change. And I think that minor circumstance changes can be believable in fic. A lot of the better Hawke/Anders fic I've read contains minor circumstance changes.

Now, the issue you may have is that a minor circumstance change that results in Anders and Fenris getting involved during the course of the game would naturally lead to them behaving differently toward each other in later acts. And I entirely agree with you on that. But I don't think that's changing the characters, it's having a change in circumstance lead to a character development that is still in character, but wouldn't otherwise happen. It's known in Pratchett-speak as the "trousers of time."

For instance, imagine an Anders/Hawke fic where Hawke decides to go to the fade and try to talk with Justice there during act 2. That's a decision which is itself in-character, but which would probably result in a character development (an increase in Hawke's understanding of Justice's motives) that would change many act 3 interactions. Alternately, imagine a completely character-unrelated circumstance change: a world where Meredith is struck by lightning and killed sometime around Act 2. That's an intervention of fate that would probably cause all the characters to develop differently as a result. They wouldn't be acting out-of-character, they'd just be reacting to a different set of circumstances.

I'm fine if you say it never works for you. I'm fine with you saying that it always rings false when you read it. I'm fine with you saying it doesn't fit with your conception of the characters. But saying that people who write or concieve of it are probably inaccurately intepreting the characters? That goes a bit too far, and sounds a lot like you're saying that the fact that you dislike Fenders means you understand the characters better than people who do think that Fenders is understandable in some circumstances.

Bah, sorry to get weighty.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 05 juillet 2011 - 08:51 .

[ademska]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
many words, all of them excellent

see, this is where we differ as a matter of preference. hawke/anders, or mose specifically anders-->hawke, is something i consider sacrosanct, at least during the canon of the game. this is probably mostly because i am a very silly lady, but i also just consider it integral to anders' character.

i will gladly concede that post-game there is perhaps a possibility of anders moving on after they part ways, but the only motivation i have to make fenders work at that point (beyond the obvious aesthetics lol) is the benefit of evolution either of them gain in a relationship. you answered my question about fenris gorgeously, and i totally agree that those things would be nice for him, but i would argue that either of them could have those same purposes served better and with less required character metamorphosis with other non-hawke people. specifically: anders with the warden or somesuch, and fenris with isabela or someone new of similar freedom-loving disposition.

like i said in reply to someone else, maybe i would be more into it if one of the parties involved wasn't janders. they do have some common ground, but it seems eclipsed by a burning inability to compromise with each other. for me, the benefits of a relationship just don't outweigh the encumberances of getting there.


@yami, jump in the pool! the water is fine discussion is great, and if you have good stuff to add i'd love to hear it!

Modifié par ademska, 05 juillet 2011 - 09:00 .

[Patchwork]

I do wonder if Fenris' attitude to Bethany belonging in the circle would have softened if she hadn't met her fate. He was never outright mean to her in the same way he is to Anders or Merril. In a non mage Hawke run would Bethany have become the exception friendship mage Hawke does?

In literature and fanfic I confess I have a weakness for angsty one sided love. In real life it would be repellent and even in visual media I don't like it but reading about it makes me weak in the knees. So perhaps that is the reason I like my Anders pining.

My preferences to one side, Fenders requires losing a key element of both characters to be feasible. Janders has to widen his scope of justice and Fenris needs to see Anders as something other than a bomb waiting to go off. If that doesn't happen in seven years with everything they go through together it's unlikely to. The most civil conversation they have is over the Keeper's death.

Awakening Anders and Fenris on the other hand might have got on well after a few years.

[SurelyForth]

One of my issues with the scenario that you put forth, CGG, is that scenes such as that feel false. They are clearly orchestrated to achieve a desired end, which in this situation is Fenders. There's flexibility within the story to say "hey, they had a civil conversation!" or "Oh, they totally got along for a few weeks!" but overall? I think it's part of their characterizations that they feel so strongly for their own stuff that they can never see past the views of someone that opposed to them without a total alteration of character.

Now...Anders allows for that alteration, but Fenris really doesn't. A rivaled Fenris is not that much different from a friended Fenris, nor does the relationship feel different in the end. I personally cannot see Fenris yielding just because he has a one-on-one conversation with Anders, or is healed by him for awhile. He pretty much knows as much about Anders as Hawke does, and rejects him wholly. More time together isn't really going to fix that, I don't think.

[ademska]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
See, this goes too far for me.

My argument is that their fundamental characters do not have to change, only circumstances need to change. The circumstances are not the character. Fenris and Anders never have cause to have a prolonged discussion about this. They are never put into a situation where they have to interact seriously for a decent period of time.

. . .

I'm fine if you say it never works for you. I'm fine with you saying that it always rings false when you read it. I'm fine with you saying it doesn't fit with your conception of the characters. But saying that people who write or concieve of it are probably inaccurately intepreting the characters? That goes a bit too far, and sounds a lot like you're saying that the fact that you dislike Fenders means you understand the characters better than people who do think that Fenders is understandable in some circumstances.

Bah, sorry to get weighty.

not at all weighty, it's just debate <3

don't misunderstand, @River5's argument (and i may be in error here) seemed like it was predicated on re-interpreting their canon interactions to birth a potential relationship, and the heart of the argument was that love defies logic - that we shouldn't limit ourselves to a logical discussion of why they are not compatible because a relationship could bud regardless.

i fundamentally disagree with this. in fact, i think it's outright incorrect.

there was no talk of changing of circumstance in that discussion, and my statement (which i admit was a bit blanket) does not include circumstantial changes.

...that said, i can't get behind changes in continuity either, but here we're positing personal interpretation of characters, which is a lot less touchy, not at all objective, and really what i prefer to discuss. i'm building up a big ol' post about it now, but i needed to get this out in the open first.

[beckaliz]

SurelyForth wrote...

One of my issues with the scenario that you put forth, CGG, is that scenes such as that feel false. They are clearly orchestrated to achieve a desired end, which in this situation is Fenders. There's flexibility within the story to say "hey, they had a civil conversation!" or "Oh, they totally got along for a few weeks!" but overall? I think it's part of their characterizations that they feel so strongly for their own stuff that they can never see past the views of someone that opposed to them without a total alteration of character.

Now...Anders allows for that alteration, but Fenris really doesn't. A rivaled Fenris is not that much different from a friended Fenris, nor does the relationship feel different in the end. I personally cannot see Fenris yielding just because he has a one-on-one conversation with Anders, or is healed by him for awhile. He pretty much knows as much about Anders as Hawke does, and rejects him wholly. More time together isn't really going to fix that, I don't think.

This.

[ademska]

@CGG

SurelyForth wrote...
One of my issues with the scenario that you put forth, CGG, is that scenes such as that feel false. They are clearly orchestrated to achieve a desired end, which in this situation is Fenders. There's flexibility within the story to say "hey, they had a civil conversation!" or "Oh, they totally got along for a few weeks!" but overall? I think it's part of their characterizations that they feel so strongly for their own stuff that they can never see past the views of someone that opposed to them without a total alteration of character.

Now...Anders allows for that alteration, but Fenris really doesn't. A rivaled Fenris is not that much different from a friended Fenris, nor does the relationship feel different in the end. I personally cannot see Fenris yielding just because he has a one-on-one conversation with Anders, or is healed by him for awhile. He pretty much knows as much about Anders as Hawke does, and rejects him wholly. More time together isn't really going to fix that, I don't think.

Ser Bard wrote...
My preferences to one side, Fenders requires losing a key element of both characters to be feasible. Janders has to widen his scope of justice and Fenris needs to see Anders as something other than a bomb waiting to go off. If that doesn't happen in seven years with everything they go through together it's unlikely to. The most civil conversation they have is over the Keeper's death.

Awakening Anders and Fenris on the other hand might have got on well after a few years.

what i'm drawing from your argument is that, given the right change in circumstance, fenders becomes feasible without refashioning some core aspect of each/either character. i thus assume your counterpoint to Ser Bard is that no scenario over the course of those six years (at least that we see) allowed that kind of interaction time required for them to bond in any significant way.

i ask you, then - where is the line between character evolution and alteration? when it deviates from canon, don't they become one and the same?

my overarching point is that fenders is not possible with the characters as they are canonically written. when you change some circumstance that forces the characters to overcome barriers they indisputably never overcome during the game proper (which was the point of my comment to @river5), you have already fundamentally changed the character.

please note, i am not saying this is not a valid form of storytelling, and authors who engage in it (including myself!) can be wonderful writers with just as valid a point as those who never deviate from canon. fic is inherently suited to this, and i love it. but the point is that it is still a deviation from canon, and thus an acknowledgement that within the confines of canon, fenders does not work.

Modifié par ademska, 05 juillet 2011 - 09:46 .

[YamiSnuffles]

My thing is that while Fenris can eventually acknowledge that Hawke- and Hawke alone in all the world- is a mage that deserves to be free, Hawke has really different circumstances than Anders. Fenris seems to see Anders as an embodiment of nearly everything wrong with mages. Fenris hates mages because they have a lot of power that most people don't have and he thinks it is inevitable that they will use that power to control others. He thinks every mage will eventually fall to the demons that whisper to them.

I'm not saying that Justice is a demon, but Fenris certainly doesn't seem to draw any distinctions. To him, Anders is an abomination. He's yet another weak willed mage who let himself become an uncontrollable monster. Anders is dangerous to himself and others- thus, the perfect example of why Circles exist. Fenris might be able to make an exception for Hawke but Hawke isn't an abomination. As far as the game is concerned, Hawke also is never a bloodmage. But my point is, Fenris grows to respect Hawke. He doesn't respect Anders in the slightest.

Then you have Anders. Why would he want to be with someone who thinks his kind are the worst kind of garbage? Beyond that, how would it do anything other than bring out the worst in him if he did? When in a antagonistic relationship, Justice becomes all the more single minded. Justice seems more demonic when he's constantly being called a demon- the very thing that Fenris would likely do. Because while Anders might be able to swing Fenris into the some mages aren't so bad and they certainly aren't all blood mages camp, you said yourself, CGG that they would only do that if Anders acknowledged that there are very bad mages. It's really hard for me to imagine a situation in which Anders could take himself out of the very bad mages category. I mean, Fenris knows all the good things that Anders does, but he doesn't care. He's seen the clinic and he's likely been healed countless times by Anders over the years. No amount of good cancels out Anders being an abomination in his eyes.

Thus, on Fenris' end you have someone who essentially despises what Anders is. Being with someone like that really isn't going to help Justice start to broaden his horizons. Instead it will make him angrier and more narrow minded. Thus the loop will never end. Fenris won't respect Anders until he can prove he's not dangerous and Anders can't be anything but dangerous with a very pissed off Fade Spirit inside of him.

Sorry for the big giant blocks of text. I don't have anything against people who like Fenders. I just don't get it. And since we've been talking about it all day long without me coming any closer to comprehending it (beyond aesthetics) I likely never will get it.

[Evilnor]

I guess some people are just drawn to hate/hate dynamics. I see the same thing in fandoms for Harry Potter and various animes all the time and it continues to make my skin crawl and break my brain every time. While I could maybe see the two characters involved come to some sort of grudging yet never verbally acknowledged friendship , or at the worst mutual respect, if you will (for example, say Zuko and Katara from Avatar:TLA or Goku and Vegeta from DBZ), the angry sex or "they were really in love all teh timez!" part just escapes me.

With Anders and Fenris, literally the only reason those two walk in the same circles and have the same friends is because of Hawke. They would likely be at each other's throats quite easily without him/her (and almost are sometimes even so), and I don't mean with kisses. I think the best they could really ever come to in the course of the game is grudging respect that's never voiced. If you believe Fenris, not even that is possible, at least from his side, and Anders seems to view him as little more than an animal.

Modifié par Evilnor, 05 juillet 2011 - 10:17 .

[SurelyForth]

My brain needs a respite and, fortunately, Emmav has posted this gorgeous Anders sketch! Yay!

Modifié par SurelyForth, 05 juillet 2011 - 10:23 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

SurelyForth wrote...

One of my issues with the scenario that you put forth, CGG, is that scenes such as that feel false. They are clearly orchestrated to achieve a desired end, which in this situation is Fenders. There's flexibility within the story to say "hey, they had a civil conversation!" or "Oh, they totally got along for a few weeks!" but overall? I think it's part of their characterizations that they feel so strongly for their own stuff that they can never see past the views of someone that opposed to them without a total alteration of character.

Now...Anders allows for that alteration, but Fenris really doesn't. A rivaled Fenris is not that much different from a friended Fenris, nor does the relationship feel different in the end. I personally cannot see Fenris yielding just because he has a one-on-one conversation with Anders, or is healed by him for awhile. He pretty much knows as much about Anders as Hawke does, and rejects him wholly. More time together isn't really going to fix that, I don't think.

I think we've gotten down to a place where it's all about fundamental differences in preference. That's pretty much where I want to get to in any argument about why I like X and someone doesn't... the place where it's entirely opinion based. 

I'm actually going to discuss my history of not liking fanfic. If you just want to read my conclusion about where I fundamentally differ in fanfic preferences, scroll down to the TL:DR




I used to not like any fanfic. I basically believed that a creator deserved to have complete control over his or her characters until the creator died, at which point the characters should go into the public domain after a reasonable amount of time. Transformative and parody works were fine, also. In short: League of Extraordinary Gentlemen? Fine. 10 Things I Hate About You? Great. The Simpsons Episode of South Park? Sublime. Harry/Snape (and yes that was a pairing a friend of mine liked)? MAKER, NO!

At the same time, I read and liked a lot of comics. I worked in a freaking comic book store, so I understood circumstance differences: Hey, in this Universe Bruce and Selena married, and they have a kid, and she is also a superhero! In this universe Storm and Wolverine are dating in the future! In this universe Superman landed in the USSR and is a communist icon! (and yes, a startling number of these Alternate Universes seemed to exist largely to achieve a romance that is impossible in canon). Still, Batman in Batman: the Animated Series is the same guy as he is in Batman: Year One, and that's the same character who appears in the Dark Knight. I might like or dislike different interpretations of the character, but they're all at least attempting to be the same fundamental personality reacting to different circumstances. Still, I pretty much always liked Batman, and even if I prefer certain interpretations or realities, and even if I think certain worlds were better written, I can't say objectively "these three comics are actually Batman, and these three comics aren't him."

Some of the comics that had radically different circumstances and character interactions weren't even AUs. They were reboots, or retcons, or simply a similar thing happening again with one small aspect changed: this time X didn't have a gun, this time Y broke down and cried, this time Z actually killed that guy. So the exploration of what happens when circumstances are fundamentally changed has always been a thing that I've accepted pretty much without question, even outside the realm of fanfiction. See also: that episode of Futurama where they meet the versions of themselves from an alternate dimension where the only thing that is different is that all coin flips have the opposite result, and because of that tiny change, Fry and Leela are married.

One of my favorite characters in all of television has a story like this: Rimmer from Red Dwarf. In an episode fairly early on, they meet a version of him from another dimension. They only have one small divergence point in their lives: one of them was left back in third grade, and one of them wasn't. This caused one of them to be a mewling, cowardly failure of a human being, and the other one to be brave, self-sacrificing, charming and successful. The idea that a simple, early twist of fate can so fundamentally change a man is something that I have always been fascinated with.

To sum up where I was at that point: AUs created by the original creator - awesome, and still count as the same character. Fanfic? Bad.

Then one day I was working at a job where part of my job was to write dialogue for a character who I had known and loved for many years. And one day I thought "man, if I weren't getting paid for this, it would totally be fanfiction." At that point my brain exploded. What differentiated Kevin Smith's kind-of-crappy Batman comic from the really awesome story about Batman that my friend made up? Pretty much just the fact that Kevin Smith is famous enough to get a publisher to say "we can sell enough copies to make a profit if his name is on it." Then I hear about John Scalzi writing an entire novel that was an AU fanfiction reboot without permission, only seeking to get it published after it was completed, and retroactively getting permission. That meant that something that had been written as fanfiction had retroactively become not fanfiction just by someone signing a paper. The lines between fanfiction and pro fiction blurred forever in my eyes.

So basically, I've always thought that fundamentally changing the circumstances that characters are in and retelling the story could be a valid, in-character storytelling technique. It's a technique I've encountered since elementary school: the Muppet Babies vs. the Muppet Show, for instance (they tell completely contradictory stories of the Muppets' first meeting). The fundamental difference is that I have no separate mental rules for fanfiction compared to profiction. If copious use of "what ifs"  is OK for Batman, it's OK for Anders. If the DCAU tells a story about Dick Grayson becoming bitter and hateful while Detective comics tells a story about him becoming cheerful and approachable, but this difference is accounted for by different associated circumstances, both are valid as long as the character rings true for me in both stories. And if someone writes a fic where Anders and Justice had a slightly less horrifying joining and thus his outlook is different, I can read that too (and the fic I'm thinking of when I say that is Hawke/Anders.) 

TL;DR

Now, it seems to me that a lot of people in this thread have different rules for fanfiction than they do for non-fanfic, when it comes to alternate universes and the like. Is that accurate?

For instance, if an episode of Star Trek shows an Alternate Universe where Picard never got shot in the heart and as a result never became captain, that isn't out of character. But if a fanfic posited a universe where Picard left Star Fleet to take care of his ailing father and thus never became captain, that wouldn't be acceptable?

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 05 juillet 2011 - 10:44 .

[leggywillow]

Evilnor wrote...
With Anders and Fenris, literally the only reason those two walk in the same circles and have the same friends is because of Hawke. They would likely be at each other's throats quite easily without him/her (and almost are sometimes even so), and I don't mean with kisses. I think the best they could really ever come to in the course of the game is grudging respect that's never voiced. If you believe Fenris, not even that is possible, at least from his side, and Anders seems to view him as little more than an animal.

I don't get the fascination with hateful relationships either.  Okay, yes, angry sex scenes can be fun and sexy, but when the overall relationship is as entirely hateful as Anders and Fenris... it just doesn't work.

Fenris and Anders never reach a point of grudging respect.  EVER.  If anything, their dislike for each other seems to actually grow from Act 1 to Act 3.  In Act 1, Fenris seems to dislike Anders mostly because he's a mage.  By Act 3, Fenris still dislikes Anders for his mageness but also seems to have added a layer of hatred for Anders himself (judging from his statement about "Bethany/Hawke isn't a weak mage... but you are.")

The only "rivalry" relationship between the companions in this game that I could see developing into a legitimate relationship is Isabela and Aveline.  Not their relationship specifically (since I really don't picture them together), but in terms of how their relationship develops.  They develop a genuine respect for each and are able to learn from each other despite their differences.

Modifié par leggywillow, 05 juillet 2011 - 10:49 .

[Evilnor]

I like AUs, actually. I like seeing how different a single, simple decision or detail makes an entire world or character shift. Like you, CGG, I often find it fascinating. There's lots of little what-ifs I think about myself, and it's just interesting to explore them like ripples in a pool from a single pebble. I might add that one of my favorite book series is basically a world of AU's, Roger Zelazny's Chronicles of Amber, where there's one "real" world that all the rest of the worlds are mere "shadows" of, with only minor differences separating each shadow.

The trick with fanfic, of course, is that it has to be a good story. People just changing things willy-nilly and not thinking out the consequences fully annoys me in canon as well as fanfic.

[ipgd]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Now, it seems to me that a lot of people in this thread have different rules for fanfiction than they do for non-fanfic, when it comes to alternate universes and the like. Is that accurate?

I think where "canon" fiction and fan fiction are separated are by the different standards to which they are held.

Reminds me of a blog post on the subject I read years ago:

If [...] the writer of a canon develops a character, they 'grow up'. If [...] a fanwriter develops a character, they are no longer the same character. Character development in fanfic, therefore, is nearly impossible. Writers of original fic are praised for deviating from their characters as they originally stood, and writers of fanfic are praised for keeping their character 'sounding like [that character]'.

Such changes are theoretically possible to be done well, but they're looked at with a very critical eye.

Though, I'd go as far to say even long running comic book series are technically fanfiction in that regard -- in that the material passes through many hands, and the audience expects characters to remain static, "in character", lest they be looked upon as "rogue authors" ruining the source material. Once the very original author(s) have left the equation, there is a pressure to remain consistent and faithful to the original. More small scale, strictly original fiction series receive the opposite criticism.

I guess that might be the reason why I have about as little interest in endless franchises such as Batman as I have for fanfiction.