57020 réponses à ce sujet

[Soapbubbles]

I think Anders and Justice were too caught up in always trying to make change happen immediately for them to win over the people. They spent seven years trying to make the whole situation better without really planning anything out. Anders may have wrote a manifesto, but he didn't seem to have any real idea about how to make things work or to build up a resistance beyond a few apostates.

Maybe if the situation Anders was in at the beginning of DA2 stayed the same, where the common folk were willing to defend a mage, spread more widely, change could have occurred without becoming radical. But Janders was impatient.

[Heidenreich]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

beckaliz wrote...
And, KoP, what would you like me to say to you? I do not capitulate to the demands of the populace in general, however I do find some quality in you that facilitates in me a desire to alleviate this jealousness of which you speak.

It is my desire to recieve some written affection as well, for my constant councelling in regards to sophisticated courtsmanship has left me realizing that I yearn for an identitcal exchange for expressing mutual desire to establish long term relationships, specifically with the people of this thread, as they have caught my attention and stimulated my intellectual curiosity. You, being one of them.

Heidenreich wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

*snip of awesome*

And now I am getting jealous, no one is saying sweet words to me like that [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/sad.png[/smilie]

It's
K, KoP. I'll just keep carying you off into the sunset when you say all
the right (or wrongly right even) things. Let them have their open
marrage. I'll be your stalker! [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/angel.png[/smilie][smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/heart.png[/smilie] I have cookies, and a swimming pool!

k srsly I'm creeping myself out [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/w00t.png[/smilie]

It is the good kind of creepy....

BTW, when are we going to get there? You've been carrying me off into the sunset for several days now...

We'll get there eventually. We keep stoping to have debates about things like the validity of Fenders, and such. I blame CGG, since she's great at derailing my brain in a single post <3. Shall we bring her with us to this fabled sunset? 

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ highcastle
I can only talk about the movie. I know the book was more nuanced and complex, hence why I am not a huge fan of the movie. But yes I should have specified, I meant V from the movies. Can't say about V of the books, though they do sound similar.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Heidenreich wrote...

We'll get there eventually. We keep stoping to have debates about things like the validity of Fenders, and such. I blame CGG, since she's great at derailing my brain in a single post <3. Shall we bring her with us to this fabled sunset? 

On the condition that we take River, Beckaliz and Queen with us. And on a full moon, that sounds moe like us than a meh sunset.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 07 juillet 2011 - 02:14 .

[Heidenreich]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Heidenreich wrote...

We'll get there eventually. We keep stoping to have debates about things like the validity of Fenders, and such. I blame CGG, since she's great at derailing my brain in a single post <3. Shall we bring her with us to this fabled sunset? 

On condition that we take River, Beckaliz and Queen with us. And on a full moon, that sounds moe like us than a meh sunset.

Done. But only if we can bring Yami and Surely too. Also? by flirting, we are in fact discussing Anders, who's king at playing hard-to-get by being both amazingly sexy and incredebly insane. "No, don't, I'll only hurt you."

If that line doesn't scream reverse psycholgy, nothing does ;p

[highcastle]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ highcastle
I can only talk about the movie. I know the book was more nuanced and complex, hence why I am not a huge fan of the movie. But yes I should have specified, I meant V from the movies. Can't say about V of the books, though they do sound similar.

You should read it. It's a very interesting portrayal and the links between Anders and V are pretty clear. (I remember re-reading it when DA2 first came out and seeing some parallels to the dialogue at one point, but it's been long enough now and I've been buried in Ulysses that any explicit examples escape me at present.) Plus, it references a fascinating and dark political era (that would be Britain under Thatcher), the rhetoric of which can be linked to Circle and the Chantry in Thedas.

[ipgd]

beckaliz wrote...

The flirting establishes relationships for more important discourse at other times.  We're taking a break between heavy debates. If nobody said anything at all between heavy debates, the thread would lose some of its charm. But please, if you have a topic for discussion, do not hold back. It's not a serious question, but I have asked if anyone thinks there are hero or anti-hero figures with which Anders shares any similarities, whether in personality or in personal history.

There's crack and then there's bizarre personality cult circlejerking :innocent:

[Heidenreich]

ipgd wrote...

beckaliz wrote...

The flirting establishes relationships for more important discourse at other times.  We're taking a break between heavy debates. If nobody said anything at all between heavy debates, the thread would lose some of its charm. But please, if you have a topic for discussion, do not hold back. It's not a serious question, but I have asked if anyone thinks there are hero or anti-hero figures with which Anders shares any similarities, whether in personality or in personal history.

There's crack and then there's bizarre personality cult circlejerking :innocent:

Are you lonely, Ipgd? You're welcome to join us! I'll invite my ever so handsome but totally not into women best friend along, just for you! The .. full moon I think it was? is lovely this side of insanity! <3

Modifié par Heidenreich, 07 juillet 2011 - 02:22 .

[beckaliz]

ipgd wrote...

beckaliz wrote...

The flirting establishes relationships for more important discourse at other times.  We're taking a break between heavy debates. If nobody said anything at all between heavy debates, the thread would lose some of its charm. But please, if you have a topic for discussion, do not hold back. It's not a serious question, but I have asked if anyone thinks there are hero or anti-hero figures with which Anders shares any similarities, whether in personality or in personal history.

There's crack and then there's bizarre personality cult circlejerking :innocent:

Hahaha referring to the flirting or the question about who Anders might remotely resemble?

Honestly I'm not quite sure yet what the specific definition of "crack" is in the way people use it here. I can infer from context but clarification would be most welcome.

[River5]

beckaliz wrote...

@River5  & KoP
Y'all are killing me with my barely remembered French from high school. Um. Il pleut un peu je pense?  Je faire un promenade a velo. 
AND DID U KNO THAT DAVID GAIDER WAS AT MONTREAL JAZZ A COUPLE WEEKS AGO HUH DID YA? Totally on topic. :B

Shoot!  I missed him!  Lol!  Not that I'd expect to be able to spot him in a crowd!  

And yes, *sigh* it seems that we have ventured too far away from the topic...  Though isn't the whole point of this thread to discuss Anders AND start kissing everybody?  And...  Shouldn't we get to know each other a bit better before getting down to the kissing?  Now I'm confused...    Lol!

@KoP (quick aside) Arabic from what nationality?  I used to bellydance a lot, but had to stop about 2 years ago because of health problems (will probably try to start again if I ever get better).  So I unfortunately know very little arabic poetry, but I LOVE the music.

Okay, so about the superheroes...

I made a post a little while ago pointing out the similarities between Bruce Banner (the Incredible Hulk) and Anders (Justice)...  "Don't make me angry...  You wouldn't like me when I'm angry..."  

I definitely agree with the "V for Vendetta" comparisons...  Well, obviously!  Lol!  Since that was the very first thing I ever posted on DeviantArt.

As for others...  I'll have to give it more thought...

But Thor (from the latest movie) looks exactly like the way I would have pictured King Maric (or Cailan) in my mind...  I'm just saying!

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Heidenreich
Of course, the more the merrier.

@ Highcastle
I am certainly curious. I am reading A Clash of Kings as we speak and the series is rather long. But as soon as I am done, I'll have to check Discworld and V.

[Taihsigva]

highcastle wrote...

In the book, it's made clear that Britain actually was
in anarchy after the nuclear war. It was everything V wanted...and it
led to the fascist state Susan (in the movie, Sutler) rules over.
Similar to how in Thedas, mages were once outside of the Circle's
control and their actions led to the Circle's creation. Neither V nor
Anders have any clear plan for preventing this from happening again.

Chiming in to note that I don't believe V wanted society to ultimately end up with the same sort of organisation (or lack thereof) as it had after the nuclear war... That was the point of the story about the land of take-what-you-want contrasted with the land of do-as-you-please (I might have slightly misremembered the names).

Of course, there's also the similarity of both V and Anders heroically fighting to save a teenage girl from potential rapists in a thoroughly dramatic fashion. Only, erm, V didn't nearly kill her afterward as well... 

...and now I want to see Awakening!Anders giving Justice the speech that book!V goes into before he blows up the statue of Madam Justice. And Justice being utterly confused.

[beckaliz]

highcastle wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ highcastle
I can only talk about the movie. I know the book was more nuanced and complex, hence why I am not a huge fan of the movie. But yes I should have specified, I meant V from the movies. Can't say about V of the books, though they do sound similar.

You should read it. It's a very interesting portrayal and the links between Anders and V are pretty clear. (I remember re-reading it when DA2 first came out and seeing some parallels to the dialogue at one point, but it's been long enough now and I've been buried in Ulysses that any explicit examples escape me at present.) Plus, it references a fascinating and dark political era (that would be Britain under Thatcher), the rhetoric of which can be linked to Circle and the Chantry in Thedas.

I've got the graphic novel among my possessions, I think. I only read it once. I was a little startled because I'd seen the movie first. lulz. But I know enough to know that Alan Moore was TO'd about the changes they'd made and refused to have his name put on the movie.

So I'll have to reread it again sometime (read: probably won't get around to it), and think about Anders while I do it. @~@

[KnightofPhoenix]

River5 wrote...

@KoP (quick aside) Arabic from what nationality?  I used to bellydance a lot, but had to stop about 2 years ago because of health problems (will probably try to start again if I ever get better).  So I unfortunately know very little arabic poetry, but I LOVE the music.

Syrian.

Get well soon! And let me know when you take up belly dancing again
:P

[River5]

Heidenreich wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Heidenreich wrote...

We'll get there eventually. We keep stoping to have debates about things like the validity of Fenders, and such. I blame CGG, since she's great at derailing my brain in a single post <3. Shall we bring her with us to this fabled sunset? 

On condition that we take River, Beckaliz and Queen with us. And on a full moon, that sounds moe like us than a meh sunset.

Done. But only if we can bring Yami and Surely too. Also? by flirting, we are in fact discussing Anders, who's king at playing hard-to-get by being both amazingly sexy and incredebly insane. "No, don't, I'll only hurt you."

If that line doesn't scream reverse psycholgy, nothing does ;p

Oooh!  Full moon it is!!!  I love to howl!  

[highcastle]

Taihsigva wrote...

highcastle wrote...

In the book, it's made clear that Britain actually was
in anarchy after the nuclear war. It was everything V wanted...and it
led to the fascist state Susan (in the movie, Sutler) rules over.
Similar to how in Thedas, mages were once outside of the Circle's
control and their actions led to the Circle's creation. Neither V nor
Anders have any clear plan for preventing this from happening again.

Chiming in to note that I don't believe V wanted society to ultimately end up with the same sort of organisation (or lack thereof) as it had after the nuclear war... That was the point of the story about the land of take-what-you-want contrasted with the land of do-as-you-please (I might have slightly misremembered the names).

Of course, there's also the similarity of both V and Anders heroically fighting to save a teenage girl from potential rapists in a thoroughly dramatic fashion. Only, erm, V didn't nearly kill her afterward as well... 

...and now I want to see Awakening!Anders giving Justice the speech that book!V goes into before he blows up the statue of Madam Justice. And Justice being utterly confused.

Well...V was in many ways an idealist. He wanted the land of do-as-you-please, but did very little aside from mentor Evey and share some of his vision with her in the hopes of achieving it. Similar to how Anders wants mage freedom but has no ideas about how to bring it about without things devolving into an Imperium-style mageocracy (not that I think that's what would happen if mages were free, but it's a concern of characters in the game). Like V, the only thing Anders can think to do is share his vision with someone else and hope they'll take over the cause.

And you could make a case that V did try to kill Evey at one point. Or at least made her think he was going to kill her. 

@KoP: A Song of Ice and Fire is awesome and also well worth your time. Especially when it comes to drawing parallels with DA2, as the devs have cited it as an inspiration in many matters.

[DreamerM]

Read "song of Ice and Fire" to find out where blood magic came from. Really, I think if the Bioware Loremasters didn't lift that idea from George R.R Martin's "blood maegi" wholesale, then they basically just added demons and called it good. And so it was.

[beckaliz]

River5 wrote...

Heidenreich wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Heidenreich wrote...

We'll get there eventually. We keep stoping to have debates about things like the validity of Fenders, and such. I blame CGG, since she's great at derailing my brain in a single post <3. Shall we bring her with us to this fabled sunset? 

On condition that we take River, Beckaliz and Queen with us. And on a full moon, that sounds moe like us than a meh sunset.

Done. But only if we can bring Yami and Surely too. Also? by flirting, we are in fact discussing Anders, who's king at playing hard-to-get by being both amazingly sexy and incredebly insane. "No, don't, I'll only hurt you."

If that line doesn't scream reverse psycholgy, nothing does ;p

Oooh!  Full moon it is!!!  I love to howl!  

Flo & teh Machinez: Howl ... Cos Flo & teh Machinez is awesome and their credits song makes me cry. T_T After executing Anders.

And I'll go anywheres you gaiz want to~

You guys put me into such a good mood, I want to draw Anders. But I need a shower after playing with my flamethrower.

[highcastle]

DreamerM wrote...

Read "song of Ice and Fire" to find out where blood magic came from. Really, I think if the Bioware Loremasters didn't lift that idea from George R.R Martin's "blood maegi" wholesale, then they basically just added demons and called it good. And so it was.

Martin's a god among men, but he didn't invent blood magic. The idea of it can actually be traced back to various religions across the globe. One famous example would be the Aztecs, who sacrificed the blood and hearts of their victims for power ranging from a good harvest to assured victories in battle. Greeks also believed in the power of blood, and various authors throughout time have incorporated these beliefs into fantasy lit.

Not to say the blood magic in the game isn't connected to ASOIAF's system, but the roots go even deeper than that.

[Dunizel]

highcastle wrote...
 Similar to how in Thedas, mages were once outside of the Circle's control and their actions led to the Circle's creation. Neither V nor Anders have any clear plan for preventing this from happening again.

I think they are similar, because they are both somehow romantic/idealistic personalities. That, and the fact that they are sure to represent an idea. Anders himself says he is the mage cause. 
Both suffered and ended up wounded in their minds. 
But, that said, V is much more grounded and aware of the real state of the world I think. He is more cunning, he makes a better use of the media (Anders' manifesto wasn't a great success, probably), he chooses a series of important victims before his last show. In the world of V, he is like preparing the stage for his grand finale. And in making that, he somehow tries to prepare not only Evey but the people too. 
Anders strikes me for his romantic view of this revolution he imagines. The Chantry explosion seems more like a complete breakdown than a well thought plan. Honestly, it is a desperate act, he is driven by an impulse (more so in the rivalry path even), but I think he really didn't plan anything after that. He didn't really prepare the other mages, not even in Kirkwall, not to mention the population (there is the Manifesto, only, and we don't know if it had any success). I still remember after the explosion when he says on the streets something like "I didn't expect something like this to happen". Well...what did he expect? Really, a romantic revolution with mages siding with Hawke and conquering their freedom? Aside the fact that apparently they weren't even able to defend themselves...
My point being, V had a plan and prepared his stage, Anders didn't and was even more emotionally unstable than V. 

V also took steps to set up a replacement--a better version of himself. That's Evey. She goes through everything V does, but he takes pain to keep her compassionate. Or maybe he doesn't and it just happens inadvertently. That's up for debate depending on your interpretation. But Anders on the friendship path seemingly does something similar with Hawke. Especially a mage!Hawke. He says once or twice that Hawke can be the leader/example people need.

Hm...I didn't think about it honestly, the comparison stands, though only for a friendly Hawke of course.
I'm not sure that V had that intention from the start, maybe not even Moore thought about it, it took years to complete V for Vendetta after all...but surely, the "prison chapters" are a turning point and I think that Evey's role is revealed there.

Also, I love V for Vendetta and Moore, but I've studied it for a comic translation course a year ago, so I might be wrong on some points...
Still, yes, there are a lot of common points with Anders...

DreamerM wrote...

Read "song of Ice and Fire" to find out where blood magic came from. Really, I think if the Bioware Loremasters didn't lift that idea from George R.R Martin's "blood maegi" wholesale, then they basically just added demons and called it good. And so it was.

When I saw the Grey Warden, in my mind I had only the Night's Watch to be honest...

Modifié par Dunizel, 07 juillet 2011 - 02:47 .

[Giggles_Manically]

I dont see the V and the Anders comparison at all.

Anders and the Punisher yes.
Both men are very twisted by their path and driven by large amounts of hatred against very specific types of people.

Templars/Criminals.

However.... the Punisher under no circumstances will target innocent people, or let them come to harm. Which Janders does do.

Although the Punisher is a bit more creative shall we say.
Aka Polar bear:

Which ten seconds later ate a dude.

I doubt Anders can beat that.

[Soapbubbles]

The nature of blood magic in ASoIaF is more intimidating and horrible than in DA2. Probably because blood magic was a staple of mages in Kirkwall and it lost its weight. In DA:O blood magic gave me a similar sort of feeling I got from those books. It was a dreadful last resort that either the depraved or desperate used, and usually had horrible consequences.

I never really saw consequences for blood magic outside of Merrill's arc. Every other mage spilled blood and cast spells, and it stopped being scary. It sort of became an 'oh more blood magic' sort of thing, and I became tired of it instead of wary of it. Does that make sense?

[highcastle]

@Dunziel: I agree with pretty much everything you said. Both V and Anders are definitely romantics/idealists. But how much V actually planned after his death remains a point of debate among scholars. He definitely planned his revenge to a meticulous degree, but how much he really thought of what would happen after his death is all conjecture. Did he care? Or was he satisfied now that everyone he held responsible for the crimes committed against him was dead?

Anders very much cares about what happens after his death. He wants mage freedom. But you're right, there doesn't seem to be a clear agenda for how to achieve that. I think he absolutely thought Hawke (at least on the friend path) would lead the mages in a revolt and it would be glorious. Which is rather naive, but also understandable given Anders' upbringing in the Circle. How much real strategy would he know? Not much. I can't imagine the templars encouraging their charges to read The Art of War, after all.

[Dunizel]

Soapbubbles wrote...

I never really saw consequences for blood magic outside of Merrill's arc. Every other mage spilled blood and cast spells, and it stopped being scary. It sort of became an 'oh more blood magic' sort of thing, and I became tired of it instead of wary of it. Does that make sense?

That's a problem of DA2 and Kirkwall I think, in Origins blood magic sounded a lot more dangerous. In DA2 using blood magic was just a way to achieve more power, the real danger was to become an abomination, but it happened only when you were out of control. Blood magic or not...so...

[River5]

beckaliz wrote...

River5 wrote...
Oooh!  Full moon it is!!!  I love to howl!  

Flo & teh Machinez: Howl ... Cos Flo & teh Machinez is awesome and their credits song makes me cry. T_T After executing Anders.

And I'll go anywheres you gaiz want to~

You guys put me into such a good mood, I want to draw Anders. But I need a shower after playing with my flamethrower.

Awesome, AWESOME song...  Love it!!!

What?  Executing Anders...    Tell me you didn't...