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[beckaliz]

@Soapbubbles:

That makes perfect sense. *nod* The worst we see of it is what Quentin does to Leandra, and then what Orsino does to himself at the end. Demons and shades and abominations everywhere get kinda "meh" after a while and it's hard to keep them directly associated with "oh yeah a blood mage summoned these douchebags". I'd like to see the really twisted stuff more often, I'd like to see the line between "health = mana" and "dancing with demons for fun and profit" be more clear. Because obviously you can use blood magic as controlling blood and health and people, but that's different from summoning evil things from the Fade.


@River:

I'm afraid I did.  On my virgin/canon PT, too. Correm did it. *points to icon* It's why "I'm Not Calling You A Liar" is so sad for me. Friendmanced him then executed him, then heard that song at credits... "I love you so much I'm gonna let you kill me".


ETA for top:




ETA to not spam below:


Adorable!

Modifié par beckaliz, 07 juillet 2011 - 03:36 .

[River5]

beckaliz wrote...

@Soapbubbles:

That makes perfect sense. *nod* The worst we see of it is what Quentin does to Leandra, and then what Orsino does to himself at the end. Demons and shades and abominations everywhere get kinda "meh" after a while and it's hard to keep them directly associated with "oh yeah a blood mage summoned these douchebags". I'd like to see the really twisted stuff more often, I'd like to see the line between "health = mana" and "dancing with demons for fun and profit" be more clear. Because obviously you can use blood magic as controlling blood and health and people, but that's different from summoning evil things from the Fade.


@River:

I'm afraid I did.  On my virgin/canon PT, too. Correm did it. *points to icon* It's why "I'm Not Calling You A Liar" is so sad for me. Friendmanced him then executed him, then heard that song at credits... "I love you so much I'm gonna let you kill me".

But why...  Why would he do such a thing?    What was he thinking?

Lol!  Did anyone show Adam that?  

[Soapbubbles]

DA2 also seemed to forget that demons and abominations were supposed to be able to devastate villages and wipe out masses of people, and they become dime-a-dozen mooks for you to kill. Blood magic was also something you had to make a deal with a demon to use, and that just seems set to the side. Unless that many demons make deals with mages in Kirkwall everyday, for seven years...

Dialogue in the game talks about how bad blood magic is, but it rarely demonstrates it aside from the situation with Merrill. Quentin was more of a mad man who would have done horrible things with or without blood magic, and Orsino was outrageously stupid.

Also, whenever someone in game uses blood magic, they go crazy or become abominations almost immediately. Everyone besides Merrill and Hawke must be incredibly weak-willed or something.

[highcastle]

Soapbubbles wrote...

DA2 also seemed to forget that demons and abominations were supposed to be able to devastate villages and wipe out masses of people, and they become dime-a-dozen mooks for you to kill. Blood magic was also something you had to make a deal with a demon to use, and that just seems set to the side. Unless that many demons make deals with mages in Kirkwall everyday, for seven years...

Dialogue in the game talks about how bad blood magic is, but it rarely demonstrates it aside from the situation with Merrill. Quentin was more of a mad man who would have done horrible things with or without blood magic, and Orsino was outrageously stupid.

Also, whenever someone in game uses blood magic, they go crazy or become abominations almost immediately. Everyone besides Merrill and Hawke must be incredibly weak-willed or something.

The thing with Kirkwall is that it exists on the spot where some seriously bad mojo went down centuries ago, the effects of which still seem to be influencing everybody from the mages in the Gallows to the Arishok himself (compare his behavior in Act 1 to the end of Act 2). The codex entries for the Enigma of Kirkwall certainly seems to hint at this.

So if we take into account that the city itself seems to be designed as a giant, maleficarum glyph, than we can excuse some of the rampant abominations and the frequent appearances of blood mages as a side effect to its presence over a (for lack of a better word) Hellmouth. The Veil is also rather thin in Kirkwall, which explains the prevalence of demons.

I agree we saw a great many blood mages and abominations in DA2. But I think it's intentional. I think it's going somewhere in some expansion or sequel. There's something under Kirkwall, something more than the demons we've already faced. I have theories, but I really hope the game explores this and answers these questions. Because if that's the case, than all those demons and abominations and maleficarum are there for a reason...

Or maybe I've just been reading too much House of Leaves. Either way, I'm off to bed Anderstians.

[beckaliz]

River5 wrote...

beckaliz wrote...

@Soapbubbles:

That makes perfect sense. *nod* The worst we see of it is what Quentin does to Leandra, and then what Orsino does to himself at the end. Demons and shades and abominations everywhere get kinda "meh" after a while and it's hard to keep them directly associated with "oh yeah a blood mage summoned these douchebags". I'd like to see the really twisted stuff more often, I'd like to see the line between "health = mana" and "dancing with demons for fun and profit" be more clear. Because obviously you can use blood magic as controlling blood and health and people, but that's different from summoning evil things from the Fade.


@River:

I'm afraid I did.  On my virgin/canon PT, too. Correm did it. *points to icon* It's why "I'm Not Calling You A Liar" is so sad for me. Friendmanced him then executed him, then heard that song at credits... "I love you so much I'm gonna let you kill me".

But why...  Why would he do such a thing?    What was he thinking?

Lol!  Did anyone show Adam that?  

I absolutely love talking about Correm. <3 I bet other people are sick of hearing about him. XD

As I said, it was my virgin PT so I knew nothing about the game beyond that the character was named Hawke, refugee from Lothering, and was voiced. Everything about the game was a surprise. Many pleasant surprises. Then the unpleasant surprises, like Mother's death.  And of course the Chantry bombing. My shock was great, and Correm's was also. No metagaming at all.

Anyway, to make a long story short, and save me some writing for my fanfic which deserves more attention than I give it, Correm felt like Anders had left him no choice. Anders expected to pay for his crime. Correm knew that only he could do it. There was no way that he'd let anyone else do it. Then he sided with the Templars. 

If you'd like a more detailed explanation of what he was thinking, I can send you a message. :3 I'm in theory going to write it down but I don't know when that'll end up really being.

[Soapbubbles]

highcastle wrote...

Soapbubbles wrote...

DA2 also seemed to forget that demons and abominations were supposed to be able to devastate villages and wipe out masses of people, and they become dime-a-dozen mooks for you to kill. Blood magic was also something you had to make a deal with a demon to use, and that just seems set to the side. Unless that many demons make deals with mages in Kirkwall everyday, for seven years...

Dialogue in the game talks about how bad blood magic is, but it rarely demonstrates it aside from the situation with Merrill. Quentin was more of a mad man who would have done horrible things with or without blood magic, and Orsino was outrageously stupid.

Also, whenever someone in game uses blood magic, they go crazy or become abominations almost immediately. Everyone besides Merrill and Hawke must be incredibly weak-willed or something.

The thing with Kirkwall is that it exists on the spot where some seriously bad mojo went down centuries ago, the effects of which still seem to be influencing everybody from the mages in the Gallows to the Arishok himself (compare his behavior in Act 1 to the end of Act 2). The codex entries for the Enigma of Kirkwall certainly seems to hint at this.

So if we take into account that the city itself seems to be designed as a giant, maleficarum glyph, than we can excuse some of the rampant abominations and the frequent appearances of blood mages as a side effect to its presence over a (for lack of a better word) Hellmouth. The Veil is also rather thin in Kirkwall, which explains the prevalence of demons.

I agree we saw a great many blood mages and abominations in DA2. But I think it's intentional. I think it's going somewhere in some expansion or sequel. There's something under Kirkwall, something more than the demons we've already faced. I have theories, but I really hope the game explores this and answers these questions. Because if that's the case, than all those demons and abominations and maleficarum are there for a reason...

Or maybe I've just been reading too much House of Leaves. Either way, I'm off to bed Anderstians.

I hope they expand on it and explain (not quite) everything in the next game/book.  It would be silly to set up this entire Hellmouth situation then write it off or ignore it.  I'd be disappointed if they did.  They better link it to Sandal's prophecy about magic returning and all that. :happy:

[beckaliz]

Soapbubbles wrote...

I hope they expand on it and explain (not quite) everything in the next game/book.  It would be silly to set up this entire Hellmouth situation then write it off or ignore it.  I'd be disappointed if they did.  They better link it to Sandal's prophecy about magic returning and all that. :happy:

You know I think I've heard what Sandal says but I can't really remember.

I really want to know more. I mean I wouldn't just be disappointed, I'd be kind of irritated. My Hawke went through lots of emotional trauma because of that stupid enigma of Kirkwall.  >

But, something else you said, you're supposed to make a deal with a demon to be able to use blood magic at all? Like, just using health for mana and that fun stuff? Is that similar to a spirit healer needing to make a connection with a spirit?

[Soapbubbles]

beckaliz wrote...

You know I think I've heard what Sandal says but I can't really remember.

I really want to know more. I mean I wouldn't just be disappointed, I'd be kind of irritated. My Hawke went through lots of emotional trauma because of that stupid enigma of Kirkwall.  >

But, something else you said, you're supposed to make a deal with a demon to be able to use blood magic at all? Like, just using health for mana and that fun stuff? Is that similar to a spirit healer needing to make a connection with a spirit?

I remember from the first game it was mentioned several times that a mage needed to deal with a demon to use blood magic.  I'd have to go find codices or something for specifics.

I wonder just how important that enigma of Kirkwall is in the scheme of things.  I really hope it isn't just a cop out for the crazy in that town.

[ipgd]

Mages don't need to make a deal with a demon to learn blood magic. It's just such a taboo practice that it's very difficult to figure out how to learn without going to a demon. Jowan is an example of a blood mage who learned from books, though.

Modifié par ipgd, 07 juillet 2011 - 03:52 .

[Evilnor]

Soapbubbles wrote...

beckaliz wrote...

You know I think I've heard what Sandal says but I can't really remember.

I really want to know more. I mean I wouldn't just be disappointed, I'd be kind of irritated. My Hawke went through lots of emotional trauma because of that stupid enigma of Kirkwall.  >

But, something else you said, you're supposed to make a deal with a demon to be able to use blood magic at all? Like, just using health for mana and that fun stuff? Is that similar to a spirit healer needing to make a connection with a spirit?

I remember from the first game it was mentioned several times that a mage needed to deal with a demon to use blood magic.  I'd have to go find codices or something for specifics.

I wonder just how important that enigma of Kirkwall is in the scheme of things.  I really hope it isn't just a cop out for the crazy in that town.

My personal speculation is that Kirkwall is the place where the Magisters physically passed into the Fade and made their attempt to invade the Golden City.  Massive amounts of slaves went "missing," and the entire city was built to enhance magic?  Something big went down in that place, and that's the biggest I can even think of.

[Soapbubbles]

ipgd wrote...

Mages don't need to make a deal with a demon to learn blood magic. It's just such a taboo practice that it's very difficult to figure out how to learn without going to a demon. Jowan is an example of a blood mage who learned from books, though.

D'oh. Was it that basic blood magic could be learned from books, and that the powerful stuff, like what Uldred was up to, needed demons?

@evilnor,  I'd never thought of that! I think that makes more sense than just magisters doing blood rituals, otherwise Tevinter would be even worse than it already is.

Modifié par Soapbubbles, 07 juillet 2011 - 03:57 .

[beckaliz]

Evilnor wrote...

My personal speculation is that Kirkwall is the place where the Magisters physically passed into the Fade and made their attempt to invade the Golden City.  Massive amounts of slaves went "missing," and the entire city was built to enhance magic?  Something big went down in that place, and that's the biggest I can even think of.

That makes a lot of sense. I like that idea. If they don't explain it otherwise to us soon, that'll be my headcanon.

Modifié par beckaliz, 07 juillet 2011 - 03:57 .

[ipgd]

Soapbubbles wrote...

D'oh. Was it that basic blood magic could be learned from books, and that the powerful stuff, like what Uldred was up to, needed demons?

No, demons are just the most accessible source of knowledge regarding blood magic. There are too few books and too few blood mages to spread it commonly that way.

[Soapbubbles]

ipgd wrote...

No, demons are just the most accessible source of knowledge regarding blood magic. There are too few books and too few blood mages to spread it commonly that way.

Ah, thanks for clearing that up then. 

Kirkwall has a lot of books or reading circles about blood magic then.  Those pesky Hellmouths making things worse.

[leggywillow]

ipgd wrote...
No, demons are just the most accessible source of knowledge regarding blood magic. There are too few books and too few blood mages to spread it commonly that way.

See, that's what I always thought about blood magic.  Going to demons for blood magic is similar to scouring the black market.

But Anders says this to Fenris: "You know, to use blood magic you must look a demon in the eye and accept his offer."

I guess that most mages are taught to believe blood magic is impossible without demons to encourage them to stay away from it, but it seems like a mage like Anders, who questions the Chantry, wouldn't be taken in by that.  Thoughts?

[Hill-Hurwitz]

ipgd wrote...

Mages don't need to make a deal with a demon to learn blood magic. It's just such a taboo practice that it's very difficult to figure out how to learn without going to a demon. Jowan is an example of a blood mage who learned from books, though.

This.

It's just easier to learn it from spirits. They've lived a long time, and have seen enough to be good teachers.

And, personally, I don't hold with blood magic automatically being EVIL. It's dangerous, certainly, but I would think more in a pernicious way... like each time you use it the lure to reach deeper and demand more is harder to ignore. A mage would definately have to be strong to avoid digging too deep or going off the deep end. So, yeah, dangerous. But so is lyrium.

[Soapbubbles]

Anders is pretty against blood magic at first, so I guess he accepted that idea because he couldn't see any good person reasonably using blood magic.

In DA:O blood magic seemed a bit more dangerous and ambiguous, which I liked. There was this sort of 'is the price worth it' dealio going on that made too much blood magic and demons the path to madness. I also liked demons a bit more in DA:O, to me they were less evil and more really unpleasant. I don't like how DA2 makes everyone and everything crazy from the getgo. Again, Hellmouth-ness.

Modifié par Soapbubbles, 07 juillet 2011 - 04:31 .

[Evilnor]

In many ways, blood magic is shown to be more potent than regular magic, but like anything that can push you beyond your normal capabilities, such as so many types of drugs, it's easy to misuse and I'm guessing may be somewhat addictive, as well. Probably more of a psychological addition, but that would still qualify. Demons could be then seen as drug dealers, allowing further access to more power . . . but for a price. The price becomes higher as the need increases, of course. Supply and demand, after all.

Ultimately, in the most dire amount of need, the deal to become an abomination arises, and while it's implied the deal must be agreed to on both ends, this doesn't mean that agreement can't be under the influence of mind control or coercion, hence why abominations can make more abominations fairly easily.

Not saying that's the only way for a blood mage to progress, but it certainly would make sense to me.

[Soapbubbles]

It's the only kind of magic Templars can't ward against, so I can see why rebel and/or apostate mages might use it. Lady Harriman is an example of blood magic being like a drug. She kept asking the Desire Demon for more and more power, and sounded rather ragged and desperate when you confront her. I wish she wasn't just dlc.

[ipgd]

leggywillow wrote...

See, that's what I always thought about blood magic.  Going to demons for blood magic is similar to scouring the black market.

But Anders says this to Fenris: "You know, to use blood magic you must look a demon in the eye and accept his offer."

He also says this:

    * Anders: So, when you first did blood magic, it was... just an accident, right?
    * Anders: You cut yourself and realized the power? You didn't actually deal with a demon?
    * Merrill: Oh, no. I did.
    * Anders: Why would you do that?
    * Merrill: I needed his help. He was really very nice about it.
    * Anders: Of course he was! He's using you to get a foothold in a mortal brain!
    * Merrill: He's a spirit. He offered me his aid. I hardly think you're one to criticize.

It's all just a matter of accessibility, as far as I know. Demons might offer more raw power but I think that's just a general thing, not specifically blood magic.

[beckaliz]

From the Dragon Age wikia: (not that the wikia is the Ultimate Authority)

"In the contemporary world, blood magic is described as being one of the more "sinister" types of magic. Blood magic is the magical practice of using blood, life itself, as a potent fuel for magical spells. This life may be supplied by the mage, or by willing or unwilling sacrifices. It lets the mage control the minds of others as well as use their very own life force to fuel their power. This practice is so rare in Thedas now that it can now only be learned from contacting a demon, with the risk of becoming an abomination."

I wonder how mage!Hawke is supposed to learn this. I guess it's one of those things the game makes us come up with our own theories?

Acquiring specializations in DA:O made a lot more sense. Talk to Morrigan, get her to teach you shapeshifting. Talk to Alistair, get him to teach you Templar skills. Find the phylactery in the elven ruins, learn Arcane Warrior. (Totally kick-ass specialization, by the way.) In DA2 they're just... there. Some things I like making my own decision about, like how Hawke feels and reacts to things. But other things I'd like to, well, know.

Does anyone know if Anders even mentions blood magic in relation to Hawke if Hawke picks up blood magic?

Modifié par beckaliz, 07 juillet 2011 - 04:47 .

[ipgd]

beckaliz wrote...

From the Dragon Age wikia: (not that the wikia is the Ultimate Authority)

"In the contemporary world, blood magic is described as being one of the more "sinister" types of magic. Blood magic is the magical practice of using blood, life itself, as a potent fuel for magical spells. This life may be supplied by the mage, or by willing or unwilling sacrifices. It lets the mage control the minds of others as well as use their very own life force to fuel their power. This practice is so rare in Thedas now that it can now only be learned from contacting a demon, with the risk of becoming an abomination."

Presuming this is cited from a codex and isn't just wrong, it's probably worded that way to further the demonization of blood magic by the public; Jowan pretty definitively shows you don't need a demon to learn, given he learns it from a book.

I wonder how mage!Hawke is supposed to learn this. I guess it's one of those things the game makes us come up with our own theories?

From daddy Hawke, possibly.

Modifié par ipgd, 07 juillet 2011 - 04:50 .

[leggywillow]

beckaliz wrote...
Does anyone know if Anders even mentions blood magic in relation to Hawke if Hawke picks up blood magic?

Nope, no one says a word.

[Soapbubbles]

So is it that demons make powerful spells done with blood magic easier, and less costly? Well, if it's that, then demons just make magic easier in the first place. I bet the risk/reward is just too high for most mages though.

I don't remember any of the characters mentioning what spec Hawke chose. Otherwise Fenris would have had some harsh words with my mage.

Most of what we know about blood magic, and magic in general, in the game comes from very biased view points, like the Chantry.  The codices are subjective and magic has simply been vilified for centuries, so whether or not information regarding magic is true is up for interpretation.

Edit:  There are some things I just took at face value when I read them, because I hadn't really thought about them too hard.

Oh Wednesdays, giving me nothing to do but post. 

Modifié par Soapbubbles, 07 juillet 2011 - 05:04 .

[Evilnor]

ipgd wrote...

leggywillow wrote...

See, that's what I always thought about blood magic.  Going to demons for blood magic is similar to scouring the black market.

But Anders says this to Fenris: "You know, to use blood magic you must look a demon in the eye and accept his offer."

He also says this:

    * Anders: So, when you first did blood magic, it was... just an accident, right?
    * Anders: You cut yourself and realized the power? You didn't actually deal with a demon?
    * Merrill: Oh, no. I did.
    * Anders: Why would you do that?
    * Merrill: I needed his help. He was really very nice about it.
    * Anders: Of course he was! He's using you to get a foothold in a mortal brain!
    * Merrill: He's a spirit. He offered me his aid. I hardly think you're one to criticize.

It's all just a matter of accessibility, as far as I know. Demons might offer more raw power but I think that's just a general thing, not specifically blood magic.

Of course, demons don't have to offer blood magic, but it's logical that most would if it was addictive enough to send customers back for more.  It's an intriguing thought that a blood mage who specifically deals with demons would have more power than one who doesn't, i.e. using that sort of thing as a yardstick to measure them by within the spectrum of blood mage power.  I do agree on the accessibility issue, though, just like Merrill's demon was the only one around who could teach her about the Eluvian.

As for Anders' comment to Merrill, I'm guessing at this point in the story, Anders kind of likes Merrill and is honestly confused at how someone who seems so nice and innocent could willingly deal with a demon, when all other blood mages he's known of have been power hungry for power's sake or desperate for their lives, and she is obviously neither. 

Also, I find it hard to believe that blood magic could be discovered by accident (or even if Anders gave that comment serious thought).  If that was the case, we'd probably have little kids skinning their knees and becoming accidental blood mages before they're even found by the templars.