57020 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sialater wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

In the context of DA2, Fenris and Anders have to react badly to a Hawke blood mage.

One of the reasons I've never bothered to make one.  The lack of comments are disturbing. 

That and all that blood is just icky. 

This could be a fun excersize, how do you think Anders would have reacted to blood magic Hawke?

Personally, I think Anders hatred towards blood magic is similar, wholly or in part, to Justice's hatred towards demons. Stemming from insecurity. Anders doesn't wnat to be a maleficar in the same way Justice does not wan to be a demon.

In light of this, Anders seeing Hawke "falling to blood magic", might make him even more insecure, hence would have an aggressive first reaction. I am not sure if he could be brought to accept the idea however, especially since his condition is deteriorating.

Ideally, I'd prefer if Anders would refuse to romance a blood mage character. He might express infatuation then quickly shut if off.

[ademska]

Dunizel wrote...
I'll wait to see something more about it, Iìm not too exited atm  I seriously don't want to pay just for a map and waves of random mobs and darkspawn to kill, for a weapon and some "revelations" on Hawke lineage.
I would like to see if there is some sort of serious enjoyable story first...

the achievement list has lots of noise about wardens and such. people expect something to do with some of the awakenings crew.

i'm actually incredibly excited, but then i love da2 unrepentantly, so.

mostly i'm just super relieved it's not post-game, because i don't want them to reveal anything about anders until we've got the proper context of a full game.

[Patriciachr34]

Dunizel wrote...

They revealed the DLC

http://dragonage.bio...2/addon/legacy/

Forum Thread

"Playable from any point in the DAII campaign" so nothing post-game, apparently is just something about the Hawke family. 
I'll wait to see something more about it, Iìm not too exited atm  I seriously don't want to pay just for a map and waves of random mobs and darkspawn to kill, for a weapon and some "revelations" on Hawke lineage.
I would like to see if there is some sort of serious enjoyable story first...

Yaaaa! Just in time for my birthday!

[ademska]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
This could be a fun excersize, how do you think Anders would have reacted to blood magic Hawke?

Personally, I think Anders hatred towards blood magic is similar, wholly or in part, to Justice's hatred towards demons. Stemming from insecurity. Anders doesn't wnat to be a maleficar in the same way Justice does not wan to be a demon.

In light of this, Anders seeing Hawke "falling to blood magic", might make him even more insecure, hence would have an aggressive first reaction. I am not sure if he could be brought to accept the idea however, especially since his condition is deteriorating.

Ideally, I'd prefer if Anders would refuse to romance a blood mage character. He might express infatuation then quickly shut if off.

hm, i think, considering he actually breaks off a relationship with hawke just for listening to a demon, that having a blood mage spec would completely preclude a relationship with anders. he allows himself to be in that relationship against his better judgment anyway, because he sees hawke as exceptional, and while i don't think speccing a blood mage would destroy his feelings for hawke, i can't see him having any softer a reaction than with the demon in night terrors.

as far as game mechanics are concerned, though, that's not exactly viable, so alternatively... maybe it would only work with the rival mechanic? like, friendmancing is out, but rivalmancing stays.

[Sialater]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sialater wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

In the context of DA2, Fenris and Anders have to react badly to a Hawke blood mage.

One of the reasons I've never bothered to make one.  The lack of comments are disturbing. 

That and all that blood is just icky. 

This could be a fun excersize, how do you think Anders would have reacted to blood magic Hawke?

Personally, I think Anders hatred towards blood magic is similar, wholly or in part, to Justice's hatred towards demons. Stemming from insecurity. Anders doesn't wnat to be a maleficar in the same way Justice does not wan to be a demon.

In light of this, Anders seeing Hawke "falling to blood magic", might make him even more insecure, hence would have an aggressive first reaction. I am not sure if he could be brought to accept the idea however, especially since his condition is deteriorating.

Ideally, I'd prefer if Anders would refuse to romance a blood mage character. He might express infatuation then quickly shut if off.

Interesting.  I'd actually have to agree with you.  I think Fenris would actually be more forgiving in that respect since he already sees Hawke as exceptional.  Anders?  Despite his apparent unwavering love for Hawke, there are lines he can't allow to be crossed, such as dealing with Torpor.

[Dunizel]

ademska wrote...

the achievement list has lots of noise about wardens and such. people expect something to do with some of the awakenings crew.

i'm actually incredibly excited, but then i love da2 unrepentantly, so.

mostly i'm just super relieved it's not post-game, because i don't want them to reveal anything about anders until we've got the proper context of a full game.

Eh, I would very much like to see some of the Awakening Crew, but I somehow feel they will avoid import messes and just avoid it. I want to be proved wrong. But I was seriously angry when Nate didn't show up in my game for example, because he wasn't in the Broodmother fight. 
And who died or survived in the Keep was a tricky mess even in Awakening. Maker knows DA2 would benefit from some Sigrun for example, or hell, even Ogren again. Maybe they can cheeer up Anders too. 

I'm happy it is not post-game too though.
I think post-game deserves an expansion, not some 2-4 hours long DLC

[KnightofPhoenix]

ademska wrote...
hm, i think, considering he actually breaks off a relationship with hawke just for listening to a demon, that having a blood mage spec would completely preclude a relationship with anders. he allows himself to be in that relationship against his better judgment anyway, because he sees hawke as exceptional, and while i don't think speccing a blood mage would destroy his feelings for hawke, i can't see him having any softer a reaction than with the demon in night terrors.

Oh I didn't know he breaks off completely. That's good!
I'd like more moments like that please. Does he break off on rivalmancy as well? If so, I don't see why a rivamance Anders wouldn't break off with a blood mage.

I think Anders thinking that Hawke is exceptional, would make him overreact. Essentially it would be like this "If the exceptional Hawke fell to blood magic, then how can I resist doing the same?"

[Ryzaki]

Anders only breaks up with Hawke if Hawke takes Torpor's deal or lets Anders think he/she did. As long as Hawke tells Anders it was a trick just talking to Torpor doesn't make him break up with Hawke.  

Modifié par Ryzaki, 07 juillet 2011 - 09:59 .

[ademska]

Dunizel wrote...
Eh, I would very much like to see some of the Awakening Crew, but I somehow feel they will avoid import messes and just avoid it. I want to be proved wrong. But I was seriously angry when Nate didn't show up in my game for example, because he wasn't in the Broodmother fight. 
And who died or survived in the Keep was a tricky mess even in Awakening. Maker knows DA2 would benefit from some Sigrun for example, or hell, even Ogren again. Maybe they can cheeer up Anders too. 

I'm happy it is not post-game too though.
I think post-game deserves an expansion, not some 2-4 hours long DLC

well, the da2 team certainly didn't have much problem ignoring some of the character choice options of origins and awakening in the main game, lol, so i hope they do that again if they're implementing awakening wardens. people can **** and moan all they want about personal canon continuity, but if you're going to kill off incidental characters for funsies or neglect to upgrade your base in your game, too bad for you.

after all, look at anders.

i doubt we'd see sigrun either way, though; there's no female dwarf model in da2.

[ademska]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Oh I didn't know he breaks off completely. That's good!
I'd like more moments like that please. Does he break off on rivalmancy as well? If so, I don't see why a rivamance Anders wouldn't break off with a blood mage.

I think Anders thinking that Hawke is exceptional, would make him overreact. Essentially it would be like this "If the exceptional Hawke fell to blood magic, then how can I resist doing the same?"

he breaks it off either way; i thought it was one of the cooler moments of da2. i suggested the rivalmance option simply for expansion of choice, but now that i think about it, i take it back. players (and hawke) know the stigma and consequence of blood magic, they shouldn't be a shocked when a character condemns them for it. it would add some really nifty immersion.

i'd say that thought pattern is consistent with both friend- and rivalmancing him. unlike fenris, who i agree might be slightly more accepting if only because hawke is the only mage he already trusts (and blood magic is potentially an extension of that trust), anders' self-perception is closely tied into hawke's actions and opinions. do you think a blood mage hawke would garner rival points, or does it sort of transcend the linear spectrum?

and @Ryzaki, you can't tell him it was just a trick if you actually took the deal. you can't lie to him. so... yeah, the point stands.

[Ryzaki]

ademska wrote...
and @Ryzaki, you can't tell him it was just a trick if you actually took the deal. you can't lie to him. so... yeah, the point stands.

 

Maybe I read your post wrong but you said if you listened to Torpor. Not if you took Torpor's deal. The two are different things. 

ademska wrote...

hm, i think, considering he actually breaks off a relationship with hawke just for listening to a demon, that having a blood mage spec would completely preclude a relationship with anders. he allows himself to be in that relationship against his better judgment anyway, because he sees hawke as exceptional, and while i don't think speccing a blood mage would destroy his feelings for hawke, i can't see him having any softer a reaction than with the demon in night terrors.

as far as game mechanics are concerned, though, that's not exactly viable, so alternatively... maybe it would only work with the rival mechanic? like, friendmancing is out, but rivalmancing stays.

 

Listening to Torpor's offer isn't enough to end the relationship. Taking said offer is. I feel he'd treat a bloodmage in a similar way. If said bloodmage didn't learn it from a demon and take demon offers he'd be a bit willing (rivalry) to have a romance with them. If you're demon friendly however all bets are off. 

Though it would be interesting to have him reject a bloodmage Hawke. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 07 juillet 2011 - 10:18 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

ademska wrote...
he breaks it off either way; i thought it was one of the cooler moments of da2. i suggested the rivalmance option simply for expansion of choice, but now that i think about it, i take it back. players (and hawke) know the stigma and consequence of blood magic, they shouldn't be a shocked when a character condemns them for it. it would add some really nifty immersion.

i'd say that thought pattern is consistent with both friend- and rivalmancing him. unlike fenris, who i agree might be slightly more accepting if only because hawke is the only mage he already trusts (and blood magic is potentially an extension of that trust), anders' self-perception is closely tied into hawke's actions and opinions. do you think a blood mage hawke would garner rival points, or does it sort of transcend the linear spectrum?

The problem is that the game does not potray the stigma of blood magic when it comes to the mage PC because of plot armor. Hence why I believe that the spec should be unlocked in some sidequest, maybe via a demon, and not just automatically out of nowhere. And it should be so as to show the gravity of the PC's actions.

I think Anders' rejection of a blood mage Hawke should transcend the spectrum. But that's why I think it's more practical to have two meters.

[Dunizel]

ademska wrote...
i doubt we'd see sigrun either way, though; there's no female dwarf model in da2.

THAT's a serious injustice!

Which should be promptly rectified.

We have already in our group Anders and Justice.
After all it is safe to say that Anders was hard not to recruit at all (he is persistent enough), and somehow thay tried to explain how he met Justice anyway. 
Nate had  his cameo (sometimes bugged even if he was alive and a Warden), many recruited him, but I even know many that didn't even want to give the Howe a second chance.
Sigrun and Velanna were even more skippable than the others. Not to mention you could skip their Joining, but let's assume they were Wardens. But they were both really inclined to die in the Keep, or at least their epilogues were really vague. SIgrun that "that time didn't run away" or Velanna disappearing...sure, they can say they weren't really dead after all.

My point being, that again the one we could see again is Ogren :°D 
Alistair as grey Warden would be more epic, Strout not so much to be honest...

[ademska]

Ryzaki wrote...

ademska wrote...
and @Ryzaki, you can't tell him it was just a trick if you actually took the deal. you can't lie to him. so... yeah, the point stands.

 

Maybe I read your post wrong but you said if you listened to Torpor. Not if you took Torpor's deal. The two are different things. 

ademska wrote...

hm, i think, considering he actually breaks off a relationship with hawke just for listening to a demon, that having a blood mage spec would completely preclude a relationship with anders. he allows himself to be in that relationship against his better judgment anyway, because he sees hawke as exceptional, and while i don't think speccing a blood mage would destroy his feelings for hawke, i can't see him having any softer a reaction than with the demon in night terrors.

as far as game mechanics are concerned, though, that's not exactly viable, so alternatively... maybe it would only work with the rival mechanic? like, friendmancing is out, but rivalmancing stays.

 

Listening to Torpor's offer isn't enough to end the relationship. Taking said offer is. 

justice attacks hawke in the fade for listening vs outright fighting it, and when you wake up anders assumes you have taken a deal unless you go out of your way to correct him otherwise. this says to me that janders equates listening with dealing. which makes sense, given his black and white viewpoints.

[Ryzaki]

ademska wrote...
justice attacks hawke in the fade for listening vs outright fighting it, and when you wake up anders assumes you have taken a deal unless you go out of your way to correct him otherwise. this says to me that janders equates listening with dealing. which makes sense, given his black and white viewpoints.

 

Yeah but Anders doesn't break up with Hawke for just speaking with the demon. Justice flips out believing Hawke is dealing with the demon and you can even says as much to Anders with the whole "Justice would've did that if I told him beforehand wouldn't he." and Anders agrees. Anders has little reason to break up with Hawke just for Hawke talking to a demon. Justice flips out (and since my Hawke's not romancing him there's no breaking up to be had) and Anders assumes Hawke killed him because Hawke was taking the deal. (why Hawke can't go "I was not letting your spirit take my head off for a trick." I dunno.). Anders breaks up with Hawke for taking a demon's deal and killing him to do it in the game I played, not because he/she conversed with a demon. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 07 juillet 2011 - 10:28 .

[ipgd]

Oh Ryzaki, must we have another incredibly specific semantic nitpick argument? You know what she meant.

[ademska]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
The problem is that the game does not potray the stigma of blood magic when it comes to the mage PC because of plot armor. Hence why I believe that the spec should be unlocked in some sidequest, maybe via a demon, and not just automatically out of nowhere. And it should be so as to show the gravity of the PC's actions.

I think Anders' rejection of a blood mage Hawke should transcend the spectrum. But that's why I think it's more practical to have two meters.

i've said that i love the game unrepentantly, and i think the duality meter is much, much better than dao's terrible approval meter, but i agree completely.

blood magic is far too large a part of the overarching kirkwall plot to relegate to the sidelines in a spec. i can personally ignore it for story purposes, but yeah no, mainstreaming it into a standardized spec option sort of removes the 'other'-ness of the specialization -- far moreso than any of the other available ones.

the problem with blood magic is that with the exception of anders, it could fit neatly on the friendship+rivalry system for every character. i like your two-meter idea, but seems limited in application - namely, to fenris with slaves vs mages and to anders with blood magic.


@Ryzaki, you are... gonna have to reword some of that, because it's mildly incomprehensible.

[Ryzaki]

ademska wrote...

@Ryzaki, you are... gonna have to reword some of that, because it's mildly incomprehensible.

 

The last sentence is the most coherent bit. 

Anders breaks up with Hawke for taking a demon's deal and killing him to do it. It wasn't simply talking to the demon or even taking it's offer (since I'm sure taking the demon's offer in act 1 doesn't lock Hawke out of Anders' romance). It was sacrificing Feynriel for selfishness and killing Anders for that same selfishness. 

I'm of the mind it was mostly because Hawke killed him to complete the offer that leads to the breakup. It was a pretty blatant stab in the back. Kind of bummed Hawke can't choose to break up with an LI for them betraying him/her. 
 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 07 juillet 2011 - 10:59 .

[Dunizel]

Speaking of demons and deals, what does Anders say if you accept the offer of the demon in the Deep Roads? I always punch him, I like it too much

[KnightofPhoenix]

ademska wrote...
i've said that i love the game unrepentantly, and i think the duality meter is much, much better than dao's terrible approval meter, but i agree completely.

I think DA2 took a step in the right direction in that regard. But it could go farther.

the problem with blood magic is that with the exception of anders, it could fit neatly on the friendship+rivalry system for every character. i like your two-meter idea, but seems limited in application - namely, to fenris with slaves vs mages and to anders with blood magic.

I think a dual meter can be applied to a lot of situations. One for "liking" and one for "respect".
Liking would refer to the way the PC acts in front of said companion, how they speak, what they say...etc.
Respect would be more about beliefs and actions.

[Giggles_Manically]

I dont think any scale could ever capture the complexity of a relationship though.

F/R is far better then Approval.
But its not overly deep.

You can rival a companion and hate them.
While you can still rival them and care for them.

Yet the game treats it as the same thing.
It needs some flags that get set under certain choices and dialouge that affect things.

[Ryzaki]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I dont think any scale could ever capture the complexity of a relationship though.

F/R is far better then Approval.
But its not overly deep.

You can rival a companion and hate them.
While you can still rival them and care for them.

Yet the game treats it as the same thing.
It needs some flags that get set under certain choices and dialouge that affect things.

 

Yes.

I had a self absorbed Hawke who was snoobish and looked down his nose at Izzy. Yet the game acted like the two were BFFs. 

[Giggles_Manically]

I actually loved in Origins seeing companions hate the Warden.

I want that back.

[ademska]

Ryzaki wrote...
The last sentence is the most coherent bit. 

Anders breaks up with Hawke for taking a demon's deal and killing him to
do it in the game I played, not because he/she conversed with a demon.

Anders breaks up with Hawke for taking a demon's deal and killing him to do it, not because Hawke talked with a demon. 

I'm of the mind it was mostly because Hawke killed him to complete the offer that leads to the breakup. It was a pretty blatant stab in the back. Kind of bummed Hawke can't choose to break up with an LI for them betraying him/her.

...and how does he come to the conclusion that hawke took the deal? because hawke listened to it in the first place. this is completely semantics, and while sometimes semantics are important to philosophical discussion, this is just stupid. like, mindblowingly stupid.

anders breaks up with hawke for dealing with a demon, that was the entire point.

now if you want to debate how this affects how anders hypothetically interprets a blood mage spec, by all means.

dealing with a demon obviously has an indisputable negative impact on anders, as there's no way to negotiate out of the break-up. you said you thought that, as long as demons weren't directly involved in the acquisition of a blood magic spec, you think it would just result in rivalry gain (maybe exclude the possibility of friendmancing him), but i'm more inclined to agree with KoP's interpretation, which is that anders would see that use of blood magic as a weakness in hawke and thus a possibility for himself.

the entire point of the rivalry path with anders is to convince him that he's better served opposing justice and retaining as much individuality as possible. blood magic incurs rivalry points, sure, but that's not the endgoal of the path itself.  if hawke becomes a blood mage, the one magical thing anders wholeheartedly detests, hawke has significantly undermined anders' confidence in him as an ultimate authority. this does not tie in with the rivalmance ending, where anders is persuaded by the almighty wonder that is hawke to side against everything he believes.

actually, this might partly be why they didn't incorporate reactions to blood magic. it has the potential to pretty signifincantly undermine the dynamic between hawke and anders.

[Ryzaki]

ademska wrote...
...and how does he come to the conclusion that hawke took the deal? because hawke listened to it in the first place. this is completely semantics, and while sometimes semantics are important to philosophical discussion, this is just stupid. like, mindblowingly stupid.

anders breaks up with hawke for dealing with a demon, that was the entire point.

Then that's your point. Not that Anders breaks up with Hawke *just* for listening to a demon. Otherwise Anders should have a "no relationship" point in Act 1. Where you can listen to a demon. Or even during Seb's quest where again Hawke can have a conversation with a demon. 

And again Hawke can deal with a demon before that with no consequences. It's about dealing with *that* demon and the circumstances of the deal that lead to the breakup. (Unless dealing with act 1 demon means one can't romance Anders.) 

now if you want to debate how this affects how anders hypothetically interprets a blood mage spec, by all means.

dealing with a demon obviously has an indisputable negative impact on anders, as there's no way to negotiate out of the break-up. you said you thought that, as long as demons weren't directly involved in the acquisition of a blood magic spec, you think it would just result in rivalry gain (maybe exclude the possibility of friendmancing him), but i'm more inclined to agree with KoP's interpretation, which is that anders would see that use of blood magic as a weakness in hawke and thus a possibility for himself.

I'm inclined to believe killing Anders and involving someone innocet (Feyrniel) in said deal had far more to do with him breaking up with Hawke than just Hawke talking to a demon. I don't see Anders as detesting Merrill as much as he thinks she's foolishly following the advice of something that she can't control. I see more expasperation and irritation in his dealing with Merrill than hate. Similar to a templar Hawke I are inclined to believe that as long as Hawke doesn't harm anyone other than him/her self Anders will try to get him/her to see the light. 

Now Justice might go off the wall just becase Hawke's talking to a demon but I'm inclined to believe Anders is reasonable enough to realize that demons can give useful information if one isn't naive enough to fall for their tricks. And positive enough to try to get Hawke to stop dealing with demons anyway he can. 

He flips his lid with Feynriel because it's a horrible act to him. 

the entire point of the rivalry path with anders is to convince him that he's better served opposing justice and retaining as much individuality as possible. blood magic incurs rivalry points, sure, but that's not the endgoal of the path itself.  if hawke becomes a blood mage, the one magical thing anders wholeheartedly detests, hawke has significantly undermined anders' confidence in him as an ultimate authority. this does not tie in with the rivalmance ending, where anders is persuaded by the almighty wonder that is hawke to side against everything he believes.

actually, this might partly be why they didn't incorporate reactions to blood magic. it has the potential to pretty signifincantly undermine the dynamic between hawke and anders.

...Okay? Not sure what this has to do with what I'm saying. 

Actually I wouldn't mind if Anders reacted negatively to my Hawke frankly I'd love that. It would enhance the dynamic in my view at the current moment he's all "you're an example to mages everywhere." to my bloodmage. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 07 juillet 2011 - 11:11 .