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[CulturalGeekGirl]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

So, how did your Hawke learn templar abilities? According to Alistair, they are secrets well hidden. Did she join the Order for a period of time and then jump off the train before she had to take her vows? Or did she find an ex-templar still addicted to lyrium and then traded lyrium in exchange for his knowledge?
Or... stuff...

In my headcanon she entered formal training while in Lothering, and used the destruction of the town to blow it off/fake her death, so she has several years of "official" training. She joined up half expecting to have to flee before taking her vows (because how often do they stay in the same place that long?) but part of her kind of wanted to change the institution from the inside, if she managed to stay long enough to actually complete the training. After a while she realized that the system was pretty screwed up, with the most heavily dogmatic and anti-mage recruits being praised and advanced over those who were more open-minded.

For a while, she actually wondered if this was business as usual, or if the templars had gotten away from what the Grand Clerics truly intended. She actually was incredibly excited to get a chance to talk with a Grand Cleric when she met Elthina, she was half convinced that when she told someone who was like, super holy, they'd be like "Oh dear, the Templars are like that? We must fix this immediately!" It was actually her interactions with Elthina that convinced her that modern Andrasteism is unsalvageably corrupt.

So I assume she had several years of training in Lothering, and her first few skillups are simply as a result of her mastering skills she already had the basics of. Later, I assumed she picked up advanced skills from various Templars and ex-templars in Kirkwall, including possibly Cullen, who I think she's actually a bit friendly with... in a slightly pitying way, You know, the way someone who is nice decides to sit with that one kid who nobody ever talks to.

That's another thing she fights with Anders about (I'm sure); a lot of templars aren't really templars by choice. They're bastards or inconvenient extra children or foundlings or orphans, and pretty heavily and harshly indoctrinated. Some, like Alistair, manage to resist (and he was old enough at ten to have some sense of self before he went in) but others, especially ones who came in super young, are as much victims as the mages. That's my headcanon for Cullen, actually - raised in the Chantry by someone who messed with his head pretty horribly. This adorable Alistair and Cullen  fic probably has a lot to do with that.

That's why Lir - Chantry trained, devout Andrastean, sympathetic-toward-templars Lir - is fine with the Chantry going up. Because it's not really Andraste's chantry, and it needs to be torn down and rebuilt from the fundamental principles, so that people like Anders don't get screwed over, but also so people like Cullen don't get brainwashed.

(I'm not caught up on the thread yet... my interview seemed to go pretty well, and now I'm off to have dinner with an old friend... and then fly home again tomorrow. Just wanted to pop by to drop a wall of text and say hi! /flails)

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 08 juillet 2011 - 12:49 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Perhaps it's the whole 'interacting with other people in general' part that seems to elude him.

I actually think that is true. Even in Awakening, his constant humor seems to show that and of course the merger with Justice increased that more, imo.

[SurelyForth]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

"I don't want you. What I want is to stare longingly at you from afar while you stay away from other romantic relationships - like a ripe, celibate  apple just out of my reach. That I can never have. Because I don't want it. Also, get a cat."

 This made my night. 

Oh, Anders. So perplexing.

[Ryzaki]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

"I don't want you. What I want is to stare longingly at you from afar while you stay away from other romantic relationships - like a ripe, celibate  apple just out of my reach. That I can never have. Because I don't want it. Also, get a cat."

 

LOL

As for how my Hawke got templar abilities. I RP him picking them up from fighting Bethany and Malcolm. Mal didn't want his son vulnerable to any mage since he was fully aware of how dangerous a mage could be and having an excuse to have Beth practice her magic wouldn't hurt, I RP it as him being a bloodmage (not demon friendly though) and teaching Hawke how to recognize being controlled and how to throw it off. (It atleast explains the Idunna incident to me). Hawke picks up more skills by fighting mages in Kirkwall and asking templars about their skills in exchange for favors. (I'm sure Keria? Whatever the templar's name is you save) would've been grateful enough to give Hawke some pointers. So his skills are pretty weak compared to someone say like Meredith but he is capable enough to take out a mage if necessary. 

Once he reaches Kirkwall he gets better and better until he's cutting down mages and demons left and right. Meredith also teaches him a few tricks when he goes after the three apostates. 

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I actually think that is true. Even in Awakening, his constant humor seems to show that and of course the merger with Justice increased that more, imo.

I got the impression that, overall, the other people in the Awakenings crew found him incredibly annoying. Even Sigrun pulls out her grumpy face at him just for asking a rather innocent question about the Legion of the Dead, and that's rare of her. Might just be my imagination.

I get the feeling that Sigrun likes him most of the time, and their teasing is pretty playful. Same with Oghren, so maybe Anders just gets on well with dwarves?

That said, I am somewhat annoyed by how he treats Nate. Nathaniel keeps getting a bad rap for being grim, but really he's just quiet and curious about the world, and Anders won't have a legitimate conversation with him. There's even that one banter that ends with Nate saying "You're impossible to talk to," and it's true, Anders is just being deliberately obtuse and infuriating there.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 08 juillet 2011 - 01:09 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
That said, I am somewhat annoyed by how he treats Nate. Nathaniel keeps getting a bad rap for being grim, but really he's just quiet and curious about the world, and Anders won't have a legitimate conversation with him. There's even that one banter that ends with Nate saying "You're impossible to talk to," and it's true, Anders is just being deliberately obtuse and infuriating there.

Yea I felt for Nate at that point.

It is really bad that Oghren sounds more supportive to Nate, while Anders is acting like an ass.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 juillet 2011 - 01:27 .

[Soapbubbles]

Anders has a talent for acting like an ass with just about everyone but dwarves. The more I look at Awakening, the less dramatic the change in Anders seems.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Soapbubbles wrote...

Anders has a talent for acting like an ass with just about everyone but dwarves. The more I look at Awakening, the less dramatic the change in Anders seems.

Indeed, I think there was a lot of foreshadowing in many ways.

Though I still believe that the execution of Ander's transformation, coul have been done a bit better, specifically with more focus on Justice.

[TotoroTori]

I just wanted to pop in and say I fangirled so badly when I saw Anders in the new trailer and they he was going Justice/Vengeance about something. And it comes out 6 days after my birthday!
so even though I am turning 23 I am making a birthday list and on that list I want a kiss from Knight!

Also here is an experimental doodle I did a while back

I was trying to go with guilty Anders......but yeah I need more fluff!


Also with Awakening Anders, I dunno why but it always felt like he was being distant about somethings and thats why he acted like he did.

Modifié par TotoroTori, 08 juillet 2011 - 01:42 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

TotoroTori wrote...
so even though I am turning 23 I am making a birthday list and on that list I want a kiss from Knight!

Anything for you

Oh dear what they are going to do with this

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 juillet 2011 - 01:45 .

[Soapbubbles]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Indeed, I think there was a lot of foreshadowing in many ways.

Though I still believe that the execution of Ander's transformation, coul have been done a bit better, specifically with more focus on Justice.

How, exactly?  Like, instead of Anders saying from the start that he and Justice are of one mind, that Justice's personality from Awakening actually sticks around?  

I wish Justice was similar to who he was in Awakening, and you could hear his thoughts on the merger.  In DA2, Justice was just this force that vied for control of Anders, and not the developing person he was in Awakening.  

[YamiSnuffles]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

"I don't want you. What I want is to stare longingly at you from afar while you stay away from other romantic relationships - like a ripe, celibate  apple just out of my reach. That I can never have. Because I don't want it. Also, get a cat."

So Anders should start a relationship with Sebastian?
Maker NOOOOOOO!

[KnightofPhoenix]

Soapbubbles wrote...
How, exactly?  Like, instead of Anders saying from the start that he and Justice are of one mind, that Justice's personality from Awakening actually sticks around?  

I wish Justice was similar to who he was in Awakening, and you could hear his thoughts on the merger.  In DA2, Justice was just this force that vied for control of Anders, and not the developing person he was in Awakening.  

Like CGG and you, I wish we could communicate with Justice on some level. No, I don't think we sshould be able to "fix" Anders. But I believe that this would help us understand the whole thing better (as igpd explained eloquently, the whole thing is confusing), and give us a perspective on Justice himself.

That said, it may be hard to have two characters in one, but I don't see why it can't be feasible.

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Soapbubbles wrote...
How, exactly?  Like, instead of Anders saying from the start that he and Justice are of one mind, that Justice's personality from Awakening actually sticks around?  

I wish Justice was similar to who he was in Awakening, and you could hear his thoughts on the merger.  In DA2, Justice was just this force that vied for control of Anders, and not the developing person he was in Awakening.  

That said, it may be hard to have two characters in one, but I don't see why it can't be feasible.

What can I say:
Why do something if you cant do it HARD. 

[Soapbubbles]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Like CGG and you, I wish we could communicate with Justice on some level. No, I don't think we sshould be able to "fix" Anders. But I believe that this would help us understand the whole thing better (as igpd explained eloquently, the whole thing is confusing), and give us a perspective on Justice himself.

That said, it may be hard to have two characters in one, but I don't see why it can't be feasible.

I think the game could have started out with the two of them as separate minds, and Hawke gets to know both of them.  Then, over the course of the game, their thoughts and actions merge until even the player isn't sure who is Justice and who is Anders.  Janders can then run around and be a pile of contradictions or something.

[highcastle]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Soapbubbles wrote...

Anders has a talent for acting like an ass with just about everyone but dwarves. The more I look at Awakening, the less dramatic the change in Anders seems.

Indeed, I think there was a lot of foreshadowing in many ways.

Though I still believe that the execution of Ander's transformation, coul have been done a bit better, specifically with more focus on Justice.

...but that's how abominations in the DA 'verse work. Look at Kitty in DAO. Once she possesses Amalia, neither she nor the little girl are precisely the same. Look at Sophia Dryden. She's not really Sophia anymore, and the demon implies it's not the same entity either.  Anders actually retains more of his default personality than most abominations, but the fact of the matter is that neither he nor Justice are precisely the same entities as before.

A case could be made that it works differently for spirits than it does for demons, but that's just conjecture. But asking to see more of Justice is really asking the devs to revise how their lore works. And that's just...well, not going to happen, most likely.

[KnightofPhoenix]

highcastle wrote...
...but that's how abominations in the DA 'verse work. Look at Kitty in DAO. Once she possesses Amalia, neither she nor the little girl are precisely the same. Look at Sophia Dryden. She's not really Sophia anymore, and the demon implies it's not the same entity either.  Anders actually retains more of his default personality than most abominations, but the fact of the matter is that neither he nor Justice are precisely the same entities as before.

A case could be made that it works differently for spirits than it does for demons, but that's just conjecture. But asking to see more of Justice is really asking the devs to revise how their lore works. And that's just...well, not going to happen, most likely.

But that's the thing. Is JAnders an abomination?
I am not sure yet.

I think JAnders, even in Act 3, is quite different fron say Uldred or the Baroness. So saying that JAnders is most certainly an abomination (or an abomination like the ones we have seen) is conjecture as well imo.

One major difference is how long it's taking Anders to lose control, as opposed to Uldred who was taken over instantly. I think Anders and Justice's slow and gradual devolution (or evolution) into a merged entity, could have had us explore both sides. And at the end (by Act 2 or 3), they merge and become something different.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 juillet 2011 - 02:03 .

[ademska]

Soapbubbles wrote...
I think the game could have started out with the two of them as separate minds, and Hawke gets to know both of them.  Then, over the course of the game, their thoughts and actions merge until even the player isn't sure who is Justice and who is Anders.  Janders can then run around and be a pile of contradictions or something.

the problem with that proposition is that it relies on a supposition that they are, in fact, two separate minds at all. i find it much more likely  that they're not.

call me a plebe, but i enjoy the way they executed the janders transition (not to be confused with the way they executed janders himself ZING). if you pay attention, there is plenty of snarky, charming party banter from anders throughout act 1 sprinkled in with his seriousness, and it gradually deteriorates over the course of the timeline. the only improvement i can fully endorse is to just... give us more time with him, i suppose; i'd never refuse that. but then, i like ambiguity in characters.

[Soapbubbles]

ademska wrote...

the problem with that proposition is that it relies on a supposition that they are, in fact, two separate minds at all. i find it much more likely  that they're not.

call me a plebe, but i enjoy the way they executed the janders transition (not to be confused with the way they executed janders himself ZING). if you pay attention, there is plenty of snarky, charming party banter from anders throughout act 1 sprinkled in with his seriousness, and it gradually deteriorates over the course of the timeline. the only improvement i can fully endorse is to just... give us more time with him, i suppose; i'd never refuse that. but then, i like ambiguity in characters.

I liked Justice in Awakening, so when I heard about both of them in DA2 I was really hoping for just that, both of them.  We get to see how Anders changes and deteriorates, but never really get to see the Justice part of the equation.  Justice's scenes are mostly him in 'grr mad me smash' Vengeance mode, and not the thoughtful, curious, and nuanced spirit from Awakening.

Really, I'm a fan of Justice and I miss him sometimes. 

[highcastle]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

highcastle wrote...
...but that's how abominations in the DA 'verse work. Look at Kitty in DAO. Once she possesses Amalia, neither she nor the little girl are precisely the same. Look at Sophia Dryden. She's not really Sophia anymore, and the demon implies it's not the same entity either.  Anders actually retains more of his default personality than most abominations, but the fact of the matter is that neither he nor Justice are precisely the same entities as before.

A case could be made that it works differently for spirits than it does for demons, but that's just conjecture. But asking to see more of Justice is really asking the devs to revise how their lore works. And that's just...well, not going to happen, most likely.

But that's the thing. Is JAnders an abomination?
I am not sure yet.

I think JAnders, even in Act 3, is quite different fron say Uldred or the Baroness. So saying that JAnders is most certainly an abomination (or an abomination like the ones we have seen) is conjecture as well imo.

One major difference is how long it's taking Anders to lose control, as opposed to Uldred who was taken over instantly. I think Anders and Justice's slow and gradual devolution (or evolution) into a merged entity, could have had us explore both sides. And at the end (by Act 2 or 3), they merge and become something different.

Well...the game tells you he's an abomination. Repeatedly. The codex defines an abomination as any creature possessed by a demon. Whether or not you define Justice as a demon leaves some wiggle room here, I'll admit. But he undeniably possesses Anders.

And every abomination we've seen has been a bit different. Sophia just wanted to see the world. Uldred had some crazy plan about turning everyone into abominations. The Baronness was vain and greedy. Trying to say there's some specific formula for abominations is over-simplifying the matter. While I hardly like using Merrill as an example, there is one matter I agree with her on: demons are all different from one another. Just like humans and elves and dwarves. The Dalish see no differences at all between demons and spirits and don't classify them into categories like rage, sloth, valour, or justice. They are just entities, and I think that interpretation should be considered.

When it comes to Janders, though, you have to acknowledge that lore says when a demon/spirit possesses a host, both are changed immediately. It's been proven again and again. And it's pretty obvious from the start that Anders is not the same as he was in Awakening. I know you want more Justice. He's a cool guy. But it doesn't keep with the lore. So I guess...let it go, maybe?

[KnightofPhoenix]

ademska wrote...

Soapbubbles wrote...
I think the game could have started out with the two of them as separate minds, and Hawke gets to know both of them.  Then, over the course of the game, their thoughts and actions merge until even the player isn't sure who is Justice and who is Anders.  Janders can then run around and be a pile of contradictions or something.

the problem with that proposition is that it relies on a supposition that they are, in fact, two separate minds at all. i find it much more likely  that they're not.

I think it is likely that they are seperate beings until Act 3. I base that on Anders not knowing what Justice does when he takes control. This seems to indicate, to me at least, that they are either seperate entities, or seperate personalities. I think one can communicate with a different personality, which can develop independently from the other.

But I know little about psychology, and am basing this mostly on Batman's Two Face 
Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

[KnightofPhoenix]

highcastle wrote...
Well...the game tells you he's an abomination. Repeatedly. The codex defines an abomination as any creature possessed by a demon. Whether or not you define Justice as a demon leaves some wiggle room here, I'll admit. But he undeniably possesses Anders.

But is he possessed by Justice in Act 1 and 2?
I personally think that he is possessed by Justice, or Vengeance, in Act 3 and not before. Before, they kept struggling or Anders was giving in as he gradually doens't mind it.

If the codex mentions a struggle between Anders and Vengeance for control, then this seems to imply that they are seperate before Act 3 and with one trying to take control over the other.

And every abomination we've seen has been a bit different. Sophia just wanted to see the world. Uldred had some crazy plan about turning everyone into abominations. The Baronness was vain and greedy. Trying to say there's some specific formula for abominations is over-simplifying the matter.

This is a difference in goals. But they follow similar patterns.
I am nto sayign that the end result of the merger wouldn't have been something similar. I am questioning the similarity of them with Anders in act 1.

When it comes to Janders, though, you have to acknowledge that lore says when a demon/spirit possesses a host, both are changed immediately. It's been proven again and again. And it's pretty obvious from the start that Anders is not the same as he was in Awakening.

Anders in Act 3 is not the same as Anders in Act 1. But I think Anders from Act 1 is close to Anders from Awakening, with obvious change considering his problem. But I do not see him as possessed by Act 1.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 juillet 2011 - 02:21 .

[dragonageobsessed]

Finished playing the game a few days ago. I was romancing Anders. When he destroyed the Chantry, I was shocked, but then realized that this act was necessary and pales in comparison to the persecution of mages by the templars and their Chantry. There was never a question in my mind not to fully support Anders, and of course I chose the "run off as fugitives" ending. But I can't stop thinking about him. This has happened a couple of times in the past with other fictional characters. It happened with Alistair. But with Anders it's really more intense. I love every part of him, I hate Sebastien and Fenris for their bigotry, I support Bethany and Merril and all the other mages. But more than that I just want Hawke to be with Anders. The whole relationship was really special. When he says he used to be with that mage who became tranquil, then when he says he can't resist you anymore, then when he consoles you when Leandra dies. And then when you finally support Anders fully after the Chantry incident, and run off together. The worst part is I know my obsession with a fictional character is stupid, and means nothing, and the way it makes me feel doesn't matter at all. But I still can't stop thinking about him :/ This is why I should stop playing Bioware games...