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[ipgd]

I imagine the memory loss happens more when he's highly emotional than specifically when "Justice" takes over. He remembers what happens in the Fade, for instance, and the moments where he temporarily does his blue strobe thing. Blocking out "traumatic" memories as a defense mechanism isn't unheard of, anyway.

I just don't really see why he would lie or mislead himself into believing that he and Justice are fully merged in the way I can for why he would build artificial separations between himself and Justice.

[Soapbubbles]

In Act 1, I see Anders as hosting a spirit who comes out if he lets his guard down. By the end of it, there isn't really and Anders or a Justice, but that pesky Venganderstice thing.

[KnightofPhoenix]

ipgd wrote...

I imagine the memory loss happens more when he's highly emotional than specifically when "Justice" takes over. He remembers what happens in the Fade, for instance, and the moments where he temporarily does his blue strobe thing. Blocking out "traumatic" memories as a defense mechanism isn't unheard of, anyway.

He seems to forget what he does / say when he does his blue strobe thing. At least that's what I remember. Can some block memory of traumatic events a few seconds after they happen?
But I do not remember the fade thing, so I could be wrong.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 juillet 2011 - 02:28 .

[Taihsigva]

I'll say upfront that dissociative disorders aren't anything I've studied in great detail, but episodes where Justice appears to come out, the loss of memories that Anders experiences, and his description of feeling possessed in the conversation with Merrill strike me as having similarities to IRL depersonalisation disorder or disassociative identity disorder. So rather than Anders and Justice being two different entities, he's one person or one soul or however that metaphysical concept works in Thedas, just with, to put it crudely, multiple personalities. What I've read on the topic suggests that a person's different personalities are rarely individual complete "people", and that they are likely formed by attempting to suppress or dissociate from particular memories or emotional experiences. Which sounds a lot like what Janders does when he, er, demonises the parts of his personality that he associates with Justice.

As for the blue glowy superpowers... this always occurs during highly emotional moments. We know from the discussion of the Tranquil among other things that emotion and the Fade are connected, so perhaps the explanation for this could be, not Justice "emerging", but something in the unique nature of a soul combining a mage and a spirit that allows Anders to draw greater power from the Fade when experiencing strong emotions? The beserk rage, well, people doing things they would never otherwise do while basically freaking out is hardly unique to abominations..

[highcastle]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

But is he possessed by Justice in Act 1 and 2?
I personally think that he is possessed by Justice, or Vengeance, in Act 3 and not before. Before, they kept struggling or Anders was giving in as he gradually doens't mind it.

If the codex mentions a struggle between Anders and Vengeance for control, then this seems to imply that they are seperate before Act 3 and with one trying to take control over the other.

But...thinking that defies what the game tells you. What Anders tells you. And what the devs tell you with things like the Anders' short story. It also disregards Anders' struggle to retain control in Tranquility and Dissent. So...I'm confused by why you think he's not possessed. Unless you think glowing blue is a natural condition for a mage. In which case, can Hawke glow green? It's my favorite color.

But even assuming the glowing and boomy voice thing aren't possession symptoms, there's the little matter of going into the Fade in Act 2 and meeting a facet of Justice of there. In Anders' body. Now, it'd be fallacy to call it Justice completely. Something of Anders remains, because should you betray/kill him there, Anders explicitly states that you killed him. Not Justice. He felt the death as his own. So while he may default to more Justicey traits in the Fade, the two are still mingled to some degree.

This is a difference in goals. But they follow similar patterns.
I am nto sayign that the end result of the merger wouldn't have been something similar. I am questioning the similarity of them with Anders in act 1.

Well...we don't see Sophia, Uldred, or the Baronness immediately after their possessions. So we don't know what they were like under similar time frames. Sophia and the Baronness have both had hundreds of years to acclimate. We don't know how long Uldred may have been possessed. And how are their patters similar? Because if you strip their motivations away, then they're just a series of numerical values for us to fight. It's motivations that make us human...or abominations, I guess.

Anders in Act 3 is not the same as Anders in Act 1. But I think Anders from Act 1 is close to Anders from Awakening, with obvious change considering his problem. But I do not see him as possessed by Act 1.

Well...you're welcome to your opinion, but I think you're wrong. Anders says he's possessed. Judging by what we read from Ms. Hepler in the short and what we see in Tranquility, I don't know how you can doubt that. Anders is possessed. In some ways he acts like his old self, in others he doesn't. He's more openly selfless. While DAA!Anders was willing to help people too (he was caught helping a minor lord at one point, I believe), he always looked after his own safety first. DA2!Anders is far more willing to risk his own skin for the sake of poor refugees. And those DAA!Anders helped were generally in a position to help him, too. Call it mutual reciprocity. DA2!Anders doesn't seem to expect anything for his efforts. It's true altruism.

Janders still has all of Anders memories. It's not entirely surprising that he'd default to Anders' base personality, but at the end of the day they're just the same. And as the schism becomes more apparent, he has two choices: embrace the changes (friendship path) or reject them (rivalry). This is reflected in the game and causes part of the dicotomy between Acts 1/2 Anders and Act 3 Anders.

The other reason for the changes is Anders' actions. As Act 3 approaches, he knows he's going to have to take direct action against the Chantry. He distances himself from his friends/lover. That sends him into a bit of a depressive state. I don't actually think the possession has as much to do with his depression here as does his decision to nuke the Chantry and end his own life (which is the outcome he assumes will occur). That sort of weight on your shoulders would make anyone a bit miserable, abomination or not.

Anyway, it's late in my time zone so I'm hitting the hay. Stay groovy Anderstians.

(Sorry, just saw X-Men: First class. Picture Charles saying that last line and you'll know where my head's at these days.)

[ademska]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I think it is likely that they are
seperate beings until Act 3. I base that on Anders not knowing what
Justice does when he takes control. This seems to indicate, to me at
least, that they are either seperate entities, or seperate
personalities. I think one can communicate with a different personality,
which can develop independently from the other.

But I know little about psychology, and am basing this mostly on Batman's Two Face [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie]
Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

see, this is why i like the ambiguity of anders, because it's allowed you to reach the conclusion that janders is in a constant state of metamorphosis/assimilation until act 2 or 3, and there's nothing to directly contradict that, while i tend to believe that the merger was complete from the second it happened. there's plenty of discussion in backlogs on this that i'm sure you've read, so i'll sum it up with hopefully minimal ass-kissing by saying that ipgd's take on it mostly has me yup'ing.

Soapbubbles wrote...
I liked Justice in Awakening, so when I heard about both of them in DA2 I was really hoping for just that, both of them.  We get to see how Anders changes and deteriorates, but never really get to see the Justice part of the equation.  Justice's scenes are mostly him in 'grr mad me smash' Vengeance mode, and not the thoughtful, curious, and nuanced spirit from Awakening.

Really, I'm a fan of Justice and I miss him sometimes. 

there seems to be a general sentiment that just because we're hearing adam howden's for most of the game means we're not interacting with justice unless anders gets glowy or during that one part in night terrors. just as anders' changes in da2 are informed by his behavior in daa, so too does it inform justice's character evolution.

it's a difficult concept to wrap one's head around, because we're dealing with a sort of unprecedented character archetype, a merged being, but the reason so many of us refer to da2 anders as "janders" is because he isn't just anders. janders isn't the anders show, guest starring justice -- when you look at janders, you're seeing both of them.

[KnightofPhoenix]

highcastle wrote...
But...thinking that defies what the game tells you. What Anders tells you. And what the devs tell you with things like the Anders' short story. It also disregards Anders' struggle to retain control in Tranquility and Dissent. So...I'm confused by why you think he's not possessed.

I don't really recall the game telling me that, but I may have misremembered. Like I said, I could be wrong. That was my impression of the character.

The reason as to why I did not get the impression that he was posessed that early, is that there wouldn't be a point in his struggle and the codex saying that Vengeance and Anders fought for control would be kind of meaningless if Vengeance already controls him. And Anders resisting seems to imply that he is his own entity / personality. It seems to me that there is either a barrier between the two personalities, and maybe we can interact with each individually. Or they are seperate entities, one taking control over the other, or merging and becoming something else (between act 2 and 3).

But like I said, I could be wrong, I am not stressing on the validity of my position, especially since I do not remember that much when it comes to him apparently. I may have to read the wikia and revise my position.

That said, Anders being an abomination from the get to go, makes romancing him that much weirder to me

highcastle wrote...
While DAA!Anders was willing to help people too (he was caught helping a minor lord at one point, I believe), he always looked after his own safety first. DA2!Anders is far more willing to risk his own skin for the sake of poor refugees. And those DAA!Anders helped were generally in a position to help him, too. Call it mutual reciprocity. DA2!Anders doesn't seem to expect anything for his efforts. It's true altruism.

This is not entirely accurate. Anders wanting to save Amaranthine, while risking his own life, is altruism and I doubt he cared about the strategic and geo-political value of the city.

And good night

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 juillet 2011 - 02:46 .

[ipgd]

What I took away from the "struggling" was that he was basically fighting against the scape goated part of himself he's labeled as "Justice". Like, the same kind of struggling the guy in the Chantry complaining about his itchy junk does. He's sectioned off those thoughts and feelings as "wrong", or, to put it more specifically, attributed all of his traits that he associates with Justice to the personified "Justice" part of himself, something he's lead himself to believe has more autonomy than it actually does, and then labeled that part of himself "wrong", and all of the traits he attributes to that part of himself as "wrong" by association, regardless of what they actually are. If that makes any sense. Which it doesn't, but I'd explained this much better a thousand times and I'm sure you all remember by now. So I'll basically just say "HEY I HAVE AN OPINION REMEMBER IT."

Modifié par ipgd, 08 juillet 2011 - 02:56 .

[River5]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

But is he possessed by Justice in Act 1 and 2?
I personally think that he is possessed by Justice, or Vengeance, in Act 3 and not before. Before, they kept struggling or Anders was giving in as he gradually doens't mind it.

Well, Justice is inside Anders' body and can take completely over at times even in Act 1 (the "Tranquility" quest with Karl).  I think that defines as being "possessed".

Not to mention the short story that was written by Jennifer Hepler where Anders refers to himself as "we" (while Justice controls his body), and then says "suddenly I'm alone" when he recovers, and is back in control.  This happens immediately after they join.

I don't believe it is more different by the end of Act 3...  When Anders says "we are one now" (friendship), I don't take this as an indication that Anders has been taken over by Justice entirely, and/or that there truly is no longer any difference between the two...  I think it's more a way of saying "we finally think and act as one, 'cause we've adapted to our situation, and have stopped fighting each other for control".  They've achieved a form of symbiosis through collaboration.

While on rivalry, the complete opposite is occuring.  Anders says that Vengeance took him over, has memory lapses where his own consciousness seems to be completely suppressed, etc.

There's also that whole episode in the Fade where, after they get out, Anders mentions that he hates the Fade because he doesn't like being a passenger in his own skin.  And then expresses his belief that Justice must feel the same way because he is at the mercy of every decision Anders makes.  And even goes as far as saying "No wonder it's become a prison for him".

I've said this before, but this could have been SO much simpler if they'd just made the whole joining thing similar to the Tok'ra.  With Justice trying to go Goa'uld on Anders if you have him on rivalry.

[KnightofPhoenix]

ipgd wrote...

What I took away from the "struggling" was that he was basically fighting against the scape goated part of himself he's labeled as "Justice". Like, the same kind of struggling the guy in the Chantry complaining about his itchy junk does. He's sectioned off those thoughts and feelings as "wrong", or, to put it more specifically, attributed all of his traits that he associates with Justice to the personified "Justice" part of himself, something he's lead himself to believe has more autonomy than it actually does, and then labeled that part of himself "wrong", and all of the traits he attributes to that part of himself as "wrong" by association, regardless of what they actually are. If that makes any sense. Which it doesn't, but I'd explained this much better a thousand times and I'm sure you all remember by now. So I'll basically just say "HEY I HAVE AN OPINION REMEMBER IT."

This is getting confusing, but question. Can we thus have an interaction with the personified Justice part on its own?
Because that's essnetially what I am asking. Regardless of whether Justice is a seperate entity or seperate personality, what I would have wanted is more exposure to the Justice side of it.  

[KnightofPhoenix]

River5 wrote...
Well, Justice is inside Anders' body and can take completely over at times even in Act 1 (the "Tranquility" quest with Karl).  I think that defines as being "possessed".

Not to mention the short story that was written by Jennifer Hepler where Anders refers to himself as "we" (while Justice controls his body), and then says "suddenly I'm alone" when he recovers, and is back in control.  This happens immediately after they join.

I'd see that more as "in the process of being possesssed". I don't know.

There's also that whole episode in the Fade where, after they get out, Anders mentions that he hates the Fade because he doesn't like being a passenger in his own skin.  And then expresses his belief that Justice must feel the same way because he is at the mercy of every decision Anders makes.  And even goes as far as saying "No wonder it's become a prison for him".

Isn't that implyingg they are seperate though? As in either seperate entities or seperate personalities?

[ademska]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
This is getting confusing, but question. Can we thus have an interaction with the personified Justice part on its own?
Because that's essnetially what I am asking. Regardless of whether Justice is a seperate entity or seperate personality, what I would have wanted is more exposure to the Justice side of it.  

i don't think we can, which is i rejected the idea of getting to know justice more in da2.

if you want to understand justice's evolution as a character, all that's required is simply looking at anders, at the views he espouses, which are in part justice's views, and using daa as a frame of reference.

[River5]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

River5 wrote...
Well, Justice is inside Anders' body and can take completely over at times even in Act 1 (the "Tranquility" quest with Karl).  I think that defines as being "possessed".

Not to mention the short story that was written by Jennifer Hepler where Anders refers to himself as "we" (while Justice controls his body), and then says "suddenly I'm alone" when he recovers, and is back in control.  This happens immediately after they join.

I'd see that more as "in the process of being possesssed". I don't know.

There's also that whole episode in the Fade where, after they get out, Anders mentions that he hates the Fade because he doesn't like being a passenger in his own skin.  And then expresses his belief that Justice must feel the same way because he is at the mercy of every decision Anders makes.  And even goes as far as saying "No wonder it's become a prison for him".

Isn't that implyingg they are seperate though? As in either seperate entities or seperate personalities?

Exactly.  This is complete speculation (since it's never been confirmed), but I'm still convinced that they are two separate entities even by the end of Act 3.  Or else, I really don't see how Anders could say "And if I pay for that with my life...  Then I pay.  Perhaps then Justice would at least be free".

And he says that right after having said previously  "When Justice and I merged, he ceased to be..."

If he doesn't exist anymore...  If you two are a single entity/personality...  Then how come you're suggesting that Justice is still *trapped*, and your death could free him?

Now don't play dumb with me, buddy.

I think that Anders and Justice have full awareness of each other at all time, and it is difficult for them to identify which thought / impulse belongs to one, or the other.

They don't need to have a conversation in Anders' head in order to communicate, as they already KNOW what each other is thinking / feeling.  Perhaps this allows for a melding of personalities of sorts, that becomes more and more pronounced as time go by.  But I remain pretty convinced they are two distinct beings in one body.  Just having trouble with "personal boundaries", so to speak.  So, even "they" can't quite say where one ends, and the other begins.

And the more they are in agreement, the more they have a feeling of "oneness", and aren't able to perceive the difference between one or the other themselves.  Same is same, after all.

The more they disagree, the harder it is to adapt, the more they feel like two separate beings...  And, as a result one has to try to suppress the other for control (Anders' memory lapses when Justice takes over, especially in Act 3).

Anyway, that's my theory...

Modifié par River5, 08 juillet 2011 - 03:36 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

We are being all over the place here. Some are saying they are merged. Some say they are separate. Some say they are separate till act 2-3. And perhaps the wiser ones are saying this is all pretty confusing. And that's not mentionning the debates about who is controlling who, influencing who or if it's equitable.

Ambiguity is good...bu I am not sure I like that much ambiguity.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 juillet 2011 - 03:39 .

[ipgd]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

This is getting confusing, but question. Can we thus have an interaction with the personified Justice part on its own?
Because that's essnetially what I am asking. Regardless of whether Justice is a seperate entity or seperate personality, what I would have wanted is more exposure to the Justice side of it.  

In this interpretation, no, technically. Because "Justice", as an individual autonomous entity, doesn't actually exist; he's an anthropomorphized construct within Janders's mind that he's built as a scapegoat. Literally speaking, they would be technically and macroscopically seamlessly merged, but Janders internally identifies with "Anders" and internally vilifies "Justice" and has created a dichotomy in his head where "Anders" and "Justice" encapsulate his positive and negative qualities respectively. In order to absolve himself of responsibility for his actions, he externally paints "Justice" as an autonomous force that is beyond "Anders's" control. "Anders" is thereby innocent, and because Janders wants to identify more strongly with "Anders", it makes Janders feel "innocent" as well.

Neither "Anders" nor "Justice" would really exist, as separate people or personalities or whatever you want to call it. They are merged into a new entity, Janders, who is both but neither and indivisible.

And I'll just link this again I GUESS

Modifié par ipgd, 08 juillet 2011 - 03:41 .

[River5]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

We are being all over the place here. Some are saying they are merged. Some say they are separate. Some say they are separate till act 2-3. And perhaps the wiser ones are saying this is all pretty confusing. And that's not mentionning the debates about who is controlling who, influencing who or if it's equitable.

Ambiguity is good...bu I am not sure I like that much ambiguity.

Lol!  Don't worry, I think that both Anders and Justice are completely confused themselves, and after 10 years have still yet to figure it out!  

[ipgd]

River5 wrote...

If he doesn't exist anymore...  If you two are a single entity/personality...  Then how come you're suggesting that Justice is still *trapped*, and your death could free him?

Now don't play dumb with me, buddy.

He wants to believe that Justice is a separate entity, because he's not entirely comfortable with some of the things he's done.

And while I can find psychological justifications for a merged Anders to make it sound like he's two people in one head, I can't think of a satisfactory one for why an Anders who is two people in one head would lie and say they are seamlessly merged when they are not. The inconsistencies need to be reconciled for any coherent theory and I haven't seen one that deals with them from the split end.

I'd rather they just be two people, since that'd be a lot easier to wrap my head around, but I just can't justify it psychologically.

Modifié par ipgd, 08 juillet 2011 - 03:50 .

[River5]

ipgd wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

This is getting confusing, but question. Can we thus have an interaction with the personified Justice part on its own?
Because that's essnetially what I am asking. Regardless of whether Justice is a seperate entity or seperate personality, what I would have wanted is more exposure to the Justice side of it.  

In this interpretation, no, technically. Because "Justice", as an individual autonomous entity, doesn't actually exist; he's an anthropomorphized construct within Janders's mind that he's built as a scapegoat. Literally speaking, they would be technically and macroscopically seamlessly merged, but Janders internally identifies with "Anders" and internally vilifies "Justice" and has created a dichotomy in his head where "Anders" and "Justice" encapsulate his positive and negative qualities respectively. In order to absolve himself of responsibility for his actions, he externally paints "Justice" as an autonomous force that is beyond "Anders's" control. "Anders" is thereby innocent, and because Janders wants to identify more strongly with "Anders", it makes Janders feel "innocent" as well.

Neither "Anders" nor "Justice" would really exist, as separate people or personalities or whatever you want to call it. They are merged into a new entity, Janders, who is both but neither and indivisible.

And I'll just link this again I GUESS

So you're saying that some Janders has a real dissociative personality disorder?  And that Anders and Justice are both constructs of a single mind?

If there wasn't a short story where some mage named Anders joined with some spirit named Justice...  And we didn't clearly see Anders in control most of the time in the mortal world, while Justice immediately took over in the Fade...  Then I'd buy this theory in a heartbeat.

[Soapbubbles]

All these theories are fun. I like to know how other people interpret the same things I see.

Janders is a great big pile of confusing, but it's boring to just leave it at that. And I guess explaining the same theory multiple times with different words does get old. Maker knows I'm tired of defending Sansa no matter how much I love her.

[KnightofPhoenix]

ipgd wrote...
In this interpretation, no, technically. Because "Justice", as an individual autonomous entity, doesn't actually exist; he's an anthropomorphized construct within Janders's mind that he's built as a scapegoat. Literally speaking, they would be technically and macroscopically seamlessly merged, but Janders internally identifies with "Anders" and internally vilifies "Justice" and has created a dichotomy in his head where "Anders" and "Justice" encapsulate his positive and negative qualities respectively. In order to absolve himself of responsibility for his actions, he externally paints "Justice" as an autonomous force that is beyond "Anders's" control. "Anders" is thereby innocent, and because Janders wants to identify more strongly with "Anders", it makes Janders feel "innocent" as well.

Neither "Anders" nor "Justice" would really exist, as separate people or personalities or whatever you want to call it. They are merged into a new entity, Janders, who is both but neither and indivisible.

And I'll just link this again I GUESS

Ah I see, I never read that. Thanks!

The theory makes sense, but there is still the issue of Anders succumbing to his Justice aspect on rivalry. If he pretty much "designed" it to be wrong, then how would he sucumb to it if it has no power on its own and he still thinks it's wrong? Is it because of depression that is pressuing him to succumb to his other aspect? In essence, what makes his Justice aspect stronger than his Anders aspect? 

And sorry for not paying closer attention to your posts vis-a-vis this subject before, and I appreciate you taking the time to explain.

[ademska]

River5 wrote...
If there wasn't a short story where some mage named Anders joined with some spirit named Justice...  And we didn't clearly see Anders in control most of the time in the mortal world, while Justice immediately took over in the Fade...  Then I'd buy this theory in a heartbeat.

you hear adam howden's voice; that doesn't necessarily mean you're not seeing/hearing justice -- it's hard to argue you don't hear his influence, at the very least. this theory is not that they're dissociative, it's that they're completely merged. they're the same person, and that person is neither justice nor anders.

[beckaliz]

dragonageobsessed wrote...

Finished playing the game a few days ago. I was romancing Anders. When he destroyed the Chantry, I was shocked, but then realized that this act was necessary and pales in comparison to the persecution of mages by the templars and their Chantry. There was never a question in my mind not to fully support Anders, and of course I chose the "run off as fugitives" ending. But I can't stop thinking about him. This has happened a couple of times in the past with other fictional characters. It happened with Alistair. But with Anders it's really more intense. I love every part of him, I hate Sebastien and Fenris for their bigotry, I support Bethany and Merril and all the other mages. But more than that I just want Hawke to be with Anders. The whole relationship was really special. When he says he used to be with that mage who became tranquil, then when he says he can't resist you anymore, then when he consoles you when Leandra dies. And then when you finally support Anders fully after the Chantry incident, and run off together. The worst part is I know my obsession with a fictional character is stupid, and means nothing, and the way it makes me feel doesn't matter at all. But I still can't stop thinking about him :/ This is why I should stop playing Bioware games...

It's nice to have something that you can find enjoyable. It seems like you care about the characters. That's important.

And really, don't feel to hard on yourself. It's an obsession that doesn't hurt anybody, unless you never get any sleep and don't go to work and start seeing things in the dark corners of your bedroom. You're not, are you? 

Don't worry, you're not alone. 

[ipgd]

River5 wrote...

So you're saying that some Janders has a real dissociative personality disorder?  And that Anders and Justice are both constructs of a single mind?

No. He wouldn't be dissociative so much as the guy who says "a demon made me do it" so many times he starts to believe it. He'd still be one person with a singular thought process, he just wants to believe he ("Anders") isn't responsible for the things "Justice" does. So that's how he articulates it, and he really starts to believe it on the rivalry path, while he works through it and accepts his whole self on the friend path.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ah I see, I never read that. Thanks!

The theory makes sense, but there is still the issue of Anders succumbing to his Justice aspect on rivalry. If he pretty much "designed" it to be wrong, then how would he sucumb to it if it has no power on its own and he still thinks it's wrong? Is it because of depression that is pressuing him to succumb to his other aspect? In essence, what makes his Justice aspect stronger than his Anders aspect? 

And sorry for not paying closer attention to your posts vis-a-vis this subject before, and I appreciate you taking the time to explain.

Well, it's still him. The compartmentalization he does would do nothing towards stopping him from satisfying his "Justice"-aspect desires, but after he's already done so, it makes him feel better about it to think that it was out of his control and "Anders", whom he identifies with, wasn't ultimately responsible.

[River5]

ipgd wrote...

River5 wrote...

If he doesn't exist anymore...  If you two are a single entity/personality...  Then how come you're suggesting that Justice is still *trapped*, and your death could free him?

Now don't play dumb with me, buddy.

He wants to believe that Justice is a separate entity, because he's not entirely comfortable with some of the things he's done.

And while I can find psychological justifications for a merged Anders to make it sound like he's two people in one head, I can't think of a satisfactory one for why an Anders who is two people in one head would lie and say they are seamlessly merged when they are not. The inconsistencies need to be reconciled for any coherent theory and I haven't seen one that deals with them from the split end.

I'd rather they just be two people, since that'd be a lot easier to wrap my head around, but I just can't justify it psychologically.

Perhaps I'm assuming that Anders is a very loyal friend to Justice, as on the friendship path he keeps protecting the spirit (and his behavior), and fully takes the blame for what happened to them.

There's always a huge amount of guilt coming from Anders whenever he expresses his thoughts about what Justice must be going through...  Or his fears of having turned him into a demon.

So by saying "No.  I'm the one responsible for this, do not blame it on Justice", he may actually be trying to make it up to his friend, somehow (or make amends).  Perhaps even wishing for Hawke to kill him in order to free Justice at last.

[KnightofPhoenix]

ipgd wrote...
Well, it's still him. The compartmentalization he does would do nothing towards stopping him from satisfying his "Justice"-aspect desires, but after he's already done so, it makes him feel better about it to think that it was out of his control and "Anders", whom he identifies with, wasn't ultimately responsible.

I did not try rivalry, but does Anders shift the blame to Justice after doing what he did in Act 3?