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[ademska]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Ah I see, I never read that. Thanks!

The theory makes sense, but there is still the issue of Anders succumbing to his Justice aspect on rivalry. If he pretty much "designed" it to be wrong, then how would he sucumb to it if it has no power on its own and he still thinks it's wrong? Is it because of depression that is pressuing him to succumb to his other aspect? In essence, what makes his Justice aspect stronger than his Anders aspect? 

And sorry for not paying closer attention to your posts vis-a-vis this subject before, and I appreciate you taking the time to explain.

it's not as dichotomous as all that. ipgd has explained in general terms that 'justice' is a scapegoat for bad actions and 'anders' is the personality to which janders likes to align himself, but people (even merged beings) are more complex than that.

janders speaks regularly of how 'his' (anders') anger and rage corrupted justice, which is a less black and white dispersement of blame. as hawke influences janders' opinion of himself on friend vs rivalry, the way he perceives the differences between 'anders' and 'justice' are bound to change accordingly. on the rival path, he views 'justice' as a force to fight against, an embodiment of everything 'anders' must avoid becoming, while on the friend path he more likely just doesn't differentiate between the two, and if he does, then he doesn't view 'justice' as wholly terrible.

[River5]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ipgd wrote...
Well, it's still him. The compartmentalization he does would do nothing towards stopping him from satisfying his "Justice"-aspect desires, but after he's already done so, it makes him feel better about it to think that it was out of his control and "Anders", whom he identifies with, wasn't ultimately responsible.

I did not try rivalry, but does Anders shift the blame to Justice after doing what he did in Act 3?

Yes, he does.  He immediately goes "Justice...  Vengeance took me over", is convinced that he has made his friend a demon, and refers to Justice/Vengeance as "the monster inside him".

He stresses that they are two completely different beings.

[KnightofPhoenix]

River5 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ipgd wrote...
Well, it's still him. The compartmentalization he does would do nothing towards stopping him from satisfying his "Justice"-aspect desires, but after he's already done so, it makes him feel better about it to think that it was out of his control and "Anders", whom he identifies with, wasn't ultimately responsible.

I did not try rivalry, but does Anders shift the blame to Justice after doing what he did in Act 3?

Yes, he does.  He immediately goes "Justice...  Vengeance took me over", is convinced that he has made his friend a demon, and refers to Justice/Vengeance as "the monster inside him".

He stresses that they are two completely different beings.

Hmmm, well ipgd's theory makes a lot of sense now.

I don't know, now I am completely lost and confused.

Do people here like that much ambiguity?

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 juillet 2011 - 04:05 .

[ipgd]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I did not try rivalry, but does Anders shift the blame to Justice after doing what he did in Act 3?

Yes, totally. Compare:

Friend:
Rival:

On the friend path, lots of "we're merged" wording. On Rivalry, lots of "I ('Anders') wasn't responsible; 'Justice' did it".

[Taihsigva]

ipgd wrote...

River5 wrote...

So you're saying that some Janders has a real dissociative personality disorder?  And that Anders and Justice are both constructs of a single mind?

No. He wouldn't be dissociative so much as the guy who says "a demon made me do it" so many times he starts to believe it. He'd still be one person with a singular thought process, he just wants to believe he ("Anders") isn't responsible for the things "Justice" does. So that's how he articulates it, and he really starts to believe it on the rivalry path, while he works through it and accepts his whole self on the friend path.

I think where dissociation becomes a useful model is for the blackouts on the rivalry path, the blanks in his memory that he refers to. He ends up believing it so thoroughly, and associating such mental stress and trauma with what "Justice" does, that he starts taking on aspects of a dissociative disorder. Though not to the extent that he would qualify for a clinical diagnosis - there are degrees, of course.

[ademska]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Do people here like that much ambiguity?

almost as much as arguing on the internet

bsn is the perfect place for me!


edit:
@Taihsigva

the concept you're looking for is "fugue state", which is a hell of a lot more plausible for janders than DID

Modifié par ademska, 08 juillet 2011 - 04:09 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

ipgd wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I did not try rivalry, but does Anders shift the blame to Justice after doing what he did in Act 3?

Yes, totally. Compare:

Friend:
Rival:

On the friend path, lots of "we're merged" wording. On Rivalry, lots of "I ('Anders') wasn't responsible; 'Justice' did it".

Yea but that can be equally used to say that they are seperate, with friendship being more of a mutual merger, while rivalry has justice taking over.

But I'll check the vids out.

[River5]

ipgd wrote...

River5 wrote...

So you're saying that some Janders has a real dissociative personality disorder?  And that Anders and Justice are both constructs of a single mind?

No. He wouldn't be dissociative so much as the guy who says "a demon made me do it" so many times he starts to believe it. He'd still be one person with a singular thought process, he just wants to believe he ("Anders") isn't responsible for the things "Justice" does. So that's how he articulates it, and he really starts to believe it on the rivalry path, while he works through it and accepts his whole self on the friend path.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ah I see, I never read that. Thanks!

The theory makes sense, but there is still the issue of Anders succumbing to his Justice aspect on rivalry. If he pretty much "designed" it to be wrong, then how would he sucumb to it if it has no power on its own and he still thinks it's wrong? Is it because of depression that is pressuing him to succumb to his other aspect? In essence, what makes his Justice aspect stronger than his Anders aspect? 

And sorry for not paying closer attention to your posts vis-a-vis this subject before, and I appreciate you taking the time to explain.

Well, it's still him. The compartmentalization he does would do nothing towards stopping him from satisfying his "Justice"-aspect desires, but after he's already done so, it makes him feel better about it to think that it was out of his control and "Anders", whom he identifies with, wasn't ultimately responsible.

It's not a bad theory, but the Codex still refers to the situation as Justice and Anders fighting for control...  So if they wished to go with Janders being 100% "one" and simply saying "the demon made me do it", they are doing a pretty poor job at illustrating it.

Still, I find it interesting that dissociative identity disorder's symptoms are, among others:

• Multiple mannerisms, attitudes and beliefs which are not similar to each other
• Unexplainable headaches and other body pains
• Distortion or loss of subjective time
• Depersonalization
• Derealization
• Severe memory loss
• Depression
• Flashbacks of abuse/trauma
• Sudden anger without a justified cause
• Frequent panic/anxiety attacks
• Unexplainable phobias
• Auditory of the personalities inside their mind
• Paranoia

This is pretty close to Anders' case...  And I was under the impression that this is what the writer used in order to make the Anders / Justice situation more "relatable"...

[Soapbubbles]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Do people here like that much ambiguity?

Only on weekends.

For me it depends upon the series, and how much time I want to invest into it.  I'm starting to like ipgd's theory more than mine.

[ademska]

@River5
actually, hepler used bipolar disorder as the basis for anders' psychological state, which falls rather perfectly in line with the colloid being theory.

DID is completely different and, if you study it in-depth for a hot minute, really not applicable to anders, at least not to the extent bipolar disorder is.

Modifié par ademska, 08 juillet 2011 - 04:14 .

[Taihsigva]

ademska wrote...

edit:
@Taihsigva

the concept you're looking for is "fugue state", which is a hell of a lot more plausible for janders than DID

Ah, okay, thanks. The resources I have at my disposal at the moment are... not exactly the most clear about the nature of each specific classification.

[ipgd]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yea but that can be equally used to say that they are seperate, with friendship being more of a mutual merger, while rivalry has justice taking over.

Wouldn't explain him describing them as merged much earlier in the game, though.

River5 wrote...

It's not a bad theory, but the Codex still refers to the situation as Justice and Anders fighting for control...  So if they wished to go with Janders being 100% "one" and simply saying "the demon made me do it", they are doing a pretty poor job at illustrating it.

It's all very inconsistent. Any theory has to do a lot of fighting to reconcile everything. I just find this theory to be the most coherent one I can think of. The "separatist" one is more superficially obvious, but it has a lot of psychological holes that I don't think it satisfies as well as the merged one does.

[River5]

ademska wrote...

@River5
actually, hepler used bipolar disorder as the basis for anders' psychological state, which falls rather perfectly in line with the colloid being theory.

DID is completely different and, if you study it in-depth for a hot minute, really not applicable to anders, at least not to the extent bipolar disorder is.

I really saw it as a combination of the two.  Some aspects used from bipolar disorder, and some aspects used from dissociative identity disorder.

Nothing restrained her to using only a "pure model", so to speak.  We are dealing with an hypothetic, supernatural case of spirit possession.  So you can be allowed to play with that a lot.

Also, I've never seen a person suffering from bipolarity go "a demon made me do it"...  Or create another "entity" in order to take the blame for their bad behaviors.  That's more DID.

Bipolarity is a mood disorder...  The person may have ideas of grandiosity (Anders seeing himself as the next Andraste) or think they are imbued with some holy mission...  But that's pretty much as far as it goes.

Modifié par River5, 08 juillet 2011 - 04:22 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

ipgd wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yea but that can be equally used to say that they are seperate, with friendship being more of a mutual merger, while rivalry has justice taking over.

Wouldn't explain him describing them as merged much earlier in the game, though.

It could be him not knowing what he is talking about. Or using the wrong word. I don't know.

Too much psychology for me in one night, I'll have to retire.

[River5]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ipgd wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yea but that can be equally used to say that they are seperate, with friendship being more of a mutual merger, while rivalry has justice taking over.

Wouldn't explain him describing them as merged much earlier in the game, though.

It could be him not knowing what he is talking about. Or using the wrong word. I don't know.

Too much psychology for me in one night, I'll have to retire.

Got to go to bed too!  I'll be back tomorrow morning for more psychology talk! 

[ademska]

River5 wrote...
I really saw it as a combination of the two.  Some aspects used from bipolar disorder, and some aspects used from dissociative identity disorder.

Nothing restrained her to using only a "pure model", so to speak.  We are dealing with an hypothetic, supernatural case of spirit possession.  So you can be allowed to play with that a lot.

Also, I've never seen a person suffering from bipolarity go "a demon made me do it"...  Or create another "entity" in order to take the blame for their bad behaviors.  That's more DID.

DID patients don't actively diffuse blame for actions to their alters, though, and the alters aren't created as scapegoats; like, that's just not how DID works.

you're right in that we can't use bipolar disorder as a blanket template for anders' psychology and physiology, because, well, fantasy, but i don't think it's necessary or even possible to reconcile the gaps there with DID, which is a medically controversial subject anyway. i'm much more comfortable, as someone who studied a bit of psychology, labelling anders' mental state as 'based loosely on bipolar disorder as a writing mechanic but with obviously diverging points'.

Modifié par ademska, 08 juillet 2011 - 04:28 .

[beckaliz]

Possession. Anders is possessed. There is no question in my mind that he is possessed from the moment Justice takes a dive-bomb into his person. There is a spirit inhabiting his body. He is possessed by the spirit.

Whether in friendship or rivalry, whether he blends harmoniously with the spirit or clashes with it, the spirit is still inside him. That's what I'd consider to be "possession". Not a matter of control or personna. Psychology aside, it is a man with a Fade spirit swimming around in there. I think that whether they can be separated or not isn't part of the issue. There will always be a duality of sorts.

Modifié par beckaliz, 08 juillet 2011 - 04:47 .

[Amondra]

 I just want to show everyone the commission I had done for my fanfic by Pyromaniac03

[Ryzaki]

Wow that is beautiful.

Does Pyromaniac03 have a deviantart page?

[Amondra]

Ryzaki wrote...

Wow that is beautiful.

Does Pyromaniac03 have a deviantart page?

Yeah for some reason it deleted the link when I posted<_<

Here it is

[Ryzaki]

Amondra wrote...
Yeah for some reason it deleted the link when I posted<_<

Here it is

Thanks!

And yeah that's...really annoyin even more so when you keep fixing it and it refuses to hyperlink until you throw your hands up and just paste the whole link. Then all of a sudden it wants to work. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 juillet 2011 - 06:11 .

[TotoroTori]

Amondra wrote...

 I just want to show everyone the commission I had done for my fanfic by Pyromaniac03

>image<

Wow that is beautiful! I get the feeling of Justice meeting the Godess of War&Wisdom for some reason I will be honest

Looks like I got another story to read on my kindle!

[Amondra]

TotoroTori wrote...

Amondra wrote...

 I just want to show everyone the commission I had done for my fanfic by Pyromaniac03

>image<

Wow that is beautiful! I get the feeling of Justice meeting the Godess of War&Wisdom for some reason I will be honest

Looks like I got another story to read on my kindle!

I was like dancing around my house when I got it! I based it on how Anders and Justice (or Janders) try to keep Hawke in the dark about their plans.  however you can see one of her eyes isn't covered so Thera(my Hawke) isn't as blind as they think and she is letting them do as they please, because she agrees.

I just wanted to go with something out of the norm of romance.

[TotoroTori]

Amondra wrote...

TotoroTori wrote...

Amondra wrote...

 I just want to show everyone the commission I had done for my fanfic by Pyromaniac03

>image<

Wow that is beautiful! I get the feeling of Justice meeting the Godess of War&Wisdom for some reason I will be honest

Looks like I got another story to read on my kindle!

I was like dancing around my house when I got it! I based it on how Anders and Justice (or Janders) try to keep Hawke in the dark about their plans.  however you can see one of her eyes isn't covered so Thera(my Hawke) isn't as blind as they think and she is letting them do as they please, because she agrees.

I just wanted to go with something out of the norm of romance.

Oh I didn't see the eye wasn't covered! I had to look very closely. Its funny I was reading something about how someone tried the Anders romance and said they just couldn't enjoy it and said he wasn't a good romance and it just broke my heart so when I see art like this and fanfics I get all happy and just want to do "I'm so happy to have people who love Anders as well!
But sometimes I wonder who is the bigger cat person me or Anders?

[Amondra]

TotoroTori wrote...

Amondra wrote...

TotoroTori wrote...

Amondra wrote...

 I just want to show everyone the commission I had done for my fanfic by Pyromaniac03

>image<

Wow that is beautiful! I get the feeling of Justice meeting the Godess of War&Wisdom for some reason I will be honest

Looks like I got another story to read on my kindle!

I was like dancing around my house when I got it! I based it on how Anders and Justice (or Janders) try to keep Hawke in the dark about their plans.  however you can see one of her eyes isn't covered so Thera(my Hawke) isn't as blind as they think and she is letting them do as they please, because she agrees.

I just wanted to go with something out of the norm of romance.

Oh I didn't see the eye wasn't covered! I had to look very closely. Its funny I was reading something about how someone tried the Anders romance and said they just couldn't enjoy it and said he wasn't a good romance and it just broke my heart so when I see art like this and fanfics I get all happy and just want to do "I'm so happy to have people who love Anders as well!
But sometimes I wonder who is the bigger cat person me or Anders?

LOL when it comes to being a cat person Anders wins over me.  I have one cat now, and she will be the only cat I will ever have.  She kinda fell into my life, and I love her to death.

I loved his romance.  How charged it was, and how complex he can be.  I even enjoyed his corny lines.  LOL sometimes corny love lines are nice.  I also relate to him on some things so there were point where I was like "Oh my goodness I am romancing myself":?

When it comes to Anders in whole as a character, the sides of love and hate are split right down the middle, there really isn't a "meh" choice with him.  Some people hate people hate his romance, because they hate what he did at the end.  Which I really believe, a nice chunck of people would have had a different view if they actually got to help at least.  So they can be like " I did that with a poop bomb!"  It is amazing how peoples opinion chage based on whether or not they did it.

I notice a lot of Fanfics with them leaving Anders in the end or kill him (I could also be like the worst when it comes to looking for fanfics)