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[CulturalGeekGirl]

ademska wrote...

ipgd wrote...

And another quote for the ANDERS NEVER SLEPT WITH KARL BECAUSE HE DOESN'T MENTION IT TO FEMALE HAWKE ****fests:

"No matter who the player is, Karl was always someone [Anders] was romantically involved with," says Gaider. "The part of him the player is exposed to, however, is different. Anders doesn't mention Karl to a female Hawke because Jennifer Hepler [Anders' writer] didn't think he would -- and also because a player who prefers to think of Anders as straight is welcome to do so."

i feel like i should bookmark this for the next time i pick a fight about this. you know, in the next hour or so.

Also: that post can be read as Bioware admitting that a guy can have a relationship with another guy at some point in his life and still realistically identify as straight.

I'm just sayin'. I'm all about self-defined sexualities, and that your personal decision as to what sexuality you identify with can shift during your life.

Ugh what a TERRIBLE top. Have some Fenders to make up for it: 

source.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 10 juillet 2011 - 02:10 .

[ipgd]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

You don't honestly think the word of God will settle the grumbling, do you? How adorable.

There were other Words of God essentially stating as much that were non-specific enough to weasel around, but this is a direct unmaneuverable statement.

And let's face it, these kids aren't going to go with the "JUST BECAUSE HE BANGED A DUDE ONCE DOESN'T MEAN HE'S ALWAYS GAY" thing. That would require, like, an acknowledgment that physical contact with a man doesn't render you completely and forever a homosexual. Build a thousand bridges and nobody calls you an engineer, but suck one dick!

[beckaliz]

ipgd wrote...

beckaliz wrote...

It would be like if Varric said later, "Oh yeah guyz Anders was fake he was just a figment of Hawke's imagination, Hawke was really just multiple personality disorder freak y'know and stuff" (Not a direct parallel obviously but that's how it made me feel.)

hawke wasn't a collective of like, thousands of souls trapped in rock basically doing astral projection all day, though

it wasn't exactly an m night shyamalan twist 

It just left me feeling... unsatisfied.  It had a lot of that overbearing and odd sort of Japanese philosophy stuff. Uh. That's not really coherent. Um. What am I trying to say...  I enjoy some anime and manga and stuff, but the Japanese have a whole lot of spiritual philosophy in their culture that, not to put too fine a point on it, is just plain foreign. Sometimes I have a hard time wrapping my head around it, even with the literal translation subtitles instead of the reinterpretation that happens too much in dubbing. The ending of some anime I just have to ignore to enjoy the rest of it. In other cases, the ending sours the rest of it.

ademska wrote...

._. i like ffx

and its ending

and yuna

what of it

Awwww it's ok. I'm definitely not saying that I think anyone who liked it is stupid for liking it. Not at all! I just really, really didn't see the point of it.

I'll admit that, regarding FFX, I have a rather obtuse perspective. The game is too long, however, for me to feel like going back to it to improve my attitude.


I'm sure I can put Anders into this somehow without pic spamming. It's difficult to articulate at the moment because I am distracted. Mom keeps yammering at me. Well, some people are dissatisfied with Justice's role in what happens in DA2, with the Chantry bombing and everything else. That he ceases to become a character on his own and is simply there to manipulate events. I'm dissatisfied with the spiritual oddities of FFX and Tidus just being a complete fabrication. (However I was also dissatisfied because they made me play that underwater football thing.)

[ademska]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Also: that post can be read as Bioware admitting that a guy can have a relationship with another guy at some point in his life and still realistically identify as straight.

I'm just sayin'. I'm all about self-defined sexualities, and that your personal decision as to what sexuality you identify with can shift during your life.

what are you TALKING about, CGG? if a man has sex with another man even once he is immutably, indomitably gay, that's just science

on the serious, when i argue with people who have no concept of sexuality vs sexual identity, i immediately begin slamming my face into walls.


@Queen: juppppp that's bevelle.

edit:
@becka: oh, hon, i'm not actually mad, i'm just being trollish. it's got a lot of detractors and i understand a lot of the criticism. as this isn't the ffx forum, i won't get into why i took no issue with the spirit-y bits, but no worries at least.

Modifié par ademska, 10 juillet 2011 - 02:20 .

[beckaliz]

ipgd wrote...

And another quote for the ANDERS NEVER SLEPT WITH KARL BECAUSE HE DOESN'T MENTION IT TO FEMALE HAWKE ****fests:

"No matter who the player is, Karl was always someone [Anders] was romantically involved with," says Gaider. "The part of him the player is exposed to, however, is different. Anders doesn't mention Karl to a female Hawke because Jennifer Hepler [Anders' writer] didn't think he would -- and also because a player who prefers to think of Anders as straight is welcome to do so."

This is awesomesauce.

Thank you for this. <3:wub:



ETA:
@ademska: Feel free to PM me with that. I'm interested.

Modifié par beckaliz, 10 juillet 2011 - 02:26 .

[Giggles_Manically]

I love reading all those posts from homophobes on the Mass Effect boards who are acting like the world is going to end because there are going to possible M/M options in ME3.

But of course lesbian options are fine right?
I mean two women having sex is hot right? While two guys..,.. UCK!

[ipgd]

beckaliz wrote...

I'm dissatisfied with the spiritual oddities of FFX and Tidus just being a complete fabrication.

He... wasn't, though >.> Tidus wasn't really any less real than the aeons, and they certainly had a significant and tangible impact on the world. Certainly far from the ridiculous Shyamalan "HE WAS IMAGINING IT ALL ALONG" plot twists. He just didn't come into the world through a vagina.

It does raise philosophical questions about what is necessary to be human or "real".

[dragonageobsessed]

Anders says it best, I reckon. You don't just fall in love with a person's body, but their soul too. People are so concerned with labelling themselves these days, but I don't want to buy into that. I'll find love wherever I find it, and I don't think I need to "name" love anything other than love.

[beckaliz]

ipgd wrote...

beckaliz wrote...

I'm dissatisfied with the spiritual oddities of FFX and Tidus just being a complete fabrication.

He... wasn't, though >.> Tidus wasn't really any less real than the aeons, and they certainly had a significant and tangible impact on the world. Certainly far from the ridiculous Shyamalan "HE WAS IMAGINING IT ALL ALONG" plot twists. He just didn't come into the world through a vagina.

It does raise philosophical questions about what is necessary to be human or "real".

There's some part for Justice in a discussion on this topic, I'm sure, but I'd have to put a lot more thought into it before I could even begin. 

[ipgd]

beckaliz wrote...

There's some part for Justice in a discussion on this topic, I'm sure, but I'd have to put a lot more thought into it before I could even begin. 

Justice is hilariously similar to Tidus, now that I think about it. The Fade is basically the dreams of men.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

ipgd wrote...

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

You don't honestly think the word of God will settle the grumbling, do you? How adorable.

There were other Words of God essentially stating as much that were non-specific enough to weasel around, but this is a direct unmaneuverable statement.

And let's face it, these kids aren't going to go with the "JUST BECAUSE HE BANGED A DUDE ONCE DOESN'T MEAN HE'S ALWAYS GAY" thing. That would require, like, an acknowledgment that physical contact with a man doesn't render you completely and forever a homosexual. Build a thousand bridges and nobody calls you an engineer, but suck one dick!

The problem is that I've seen the Karl thing used as a sexuality kudgel on poor girls who say "I think of Anders in my personal playthrough as straight, even though I'm cool with the idea of him being gay or bisexual as well."  I'm of the opinion that it's perfectly valid for them to think that, and it's perfectly possible that Anders considers himself straight if he is romancing a female Hawke. If Karl was his first but after that he's dated primarily women, it's not unreasonable for him to consider himself straight at this point. (I'm not saying that's the most likely interpretation, I'm saying that it is one plausible one.)

If they deny Karl's existence, then they're wrong. But if they look at Karl and say "sure that happened, but if on a playthrough with F!Hawke Anders doesn't see fit to mention it, it may be because he doesn't consider it as vital a part of his sexuality when he's interested in a F!Hawke, and I should be free to interpret it that way." I know a lot of people whose perception of their sexuality alters greatly based on whomever they're attracted to at the time. If you want to say that he tells your F!Hawke about it off-camera then great, but other girls should be free to interpret it the other way, if they'd like.

A lot of the time that's what they want to say, they just can't vocalize it, because they're not hypereducated analytical obsessives. They just want to say that Anders has presented himself as straight to them in their headcanon and I don't see why that's incorrect. In fact, it's explicitly stated as not being incorrect by Gaider. So I have to be the "flexible sexuality's advocate." 

(It's different in my various headcanons: He tells Lir, but fairly late in their relationship. Never tells Crow. Garret is a dude, so duh. Tells Esk early on.) 

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 10 juillet 2011 - 03:27 .

[Evilnor]

ipgd wrote...

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

You don't honestly think the word of God will settle the grumbling, do you? How adorable.

There were other Words of God essentially stating as much that were non-specific enough to weasel around, but this is a direct unmaneuverable statement.

And let's face it, these kids aren't going to go with the "JUST BECAUSE HE BANGED A DUDE ONCE DOESN'T MEAN HE'S ALWAYS GAY" thing. That would require, like, an acknowledgment that physical contact with a man doesn't render you completely and forever a homosexual. Build a thousand bridges and nobody calls you an engineer, but suck one dick!

It takes a man who is completely assured of his heterosexuality to have sex with another man.
--This is Otakudom

Modifié par Evilnor, 10 juillet 2011 - 03:47 .

[ipgd]

The argument isn't so much about sexual identity so much as the idea that Anders's (and the other LIs') actual sexuality and sexual history literally changes based on the gender of the player character, creating some weird alternate universe character determined entirely by an incidental character creation variable.

Though, given how Anders describes his sexuality to a male Hawke, I'd doubt he'd actually be fully straight identified. I'd be more likely to buy him rounding himself up to straight if the idea of a fixed sexuality didn't actually seem to confuse him.

[ademska]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

The problem is that I've seen the Karl thing used as a sexuality kudgel on poor girls who say "I think of Anders in my personal playthrough as straight, even though I'm cool with the idea of him being gay or bisexual as well."  I'm of the opinion that it's perfectly valid for them to think that, and it's perfectly possible that Anders considers himself straight if he is romancing a female Hawke. If Karl was his first but after that he's dated primarily women, it's not unreasonable for him to consider himself straight at this point.

If they deny Karl's existence, then they're wrong. But if they look at Karl and say "sure that happened, but if on a playthrough with F!Hawke Anders doesn't see fit to mention it, it may be because he doesn't consider it as vital a part of his sexuality when he's interested in a F!Hawke, and I should be free to interpret it that way." I know a lot of people whose perception of their sexuality alters greatly based on whomever they're attracted to at the time. If you want to say that he tells your F!Hawke about it off-camera then great, but other girls should be free to interpret it the other way, if they'd like.

A lot of the time that's what they want to say, they just can't vocalize it, because they're not me. They just want to say that Anders has presented himself as straight to them in their headcanon and I don't see why that's incorrect. In fact, it's explicitly stated as not being incorrect by Gaider. So I have to be the "flexible sexuality's advocate." 

all of this is all well and good, but i spent an entire day in a thread arguing with 5-6 other people that karl does, in fact, actually exist in playthroughs where he's not mentioned. or, well, that his relationship with anders existed.

i get that you want to give these people the benefit of the doubt, but it seems like you're positing that most of the people against whom i would use gaider's statement understand the concept of sexual identity... instead of, you know, just wanting to wash the gay off him or argue some bull**** about "subjective sexuality".

and given that, when i extended that subjective sexuality argument to include feynriel not existing at all when his quest isn't done, one of the buttheads i was arguing with actually AGREED??

then i think you're giving them far too much credit.


edit: my words are incomprehensible because my friends are screaming at an n64 so
tl;dr: people are idiots who actually argue that because they didn't see it, it didn't happen.

Modifié par ademska, 10 juillet 2011 - 03:39 .

[beckaliz]

Hahahaha like Fenris doesn't exist if you blow off Anso.



You know, it's so stupid. I never knew about Meredith's sister until I lurked around on another thread. Because I've never done a straight-up Templar-supporting PT. So. uh. She never mentions it to any of MY Hawkes, so, what, does her sister not exist? XD;; Whether she tells you about it or not, it is incorporated into her wholeness as a character. Your decisions in a game affect the feedback you get from the environment. This includes your choice of what gender Hawke is.

Why people can't just accept things as the way they are, I don't know. I don't know why it should bother them, either, if, in the interest of game mechanics and creating an experience that will be fulfilling to all players, they make characters who  aren't necessarily "gay" on all canons.

(er does that make sense D: )

Modifié par beckaliz, 10 juillet 2011 - 03:51 .

[Giggles_Manically]

I always am amazed at how easy it is to miss companions in the Dragon Age games in some cases.

Blow off Anso? Never meet Fenris.
Dont go into the bar in Lothering? Never meet Leliana.

[Evilnor]

Well, I prefer to think Sebastian doesn't exist because I didn't buy the DLC . . .

[Heidenreich]

Evilnor wrote...

Well, I prefer to think Sebastian doesn't exist because I didn't buy the DLC . . .

I like to think that, and I did. Ugh, trollfase.


btw...

ipgd wrote...

There were other Words of God essentially
stating as much that were non-specific enough to weasel around, but this
is a direct unmaneuverable statement.

And let's face it, these
kids aren't going to go with the "JUST BECAUSE HE BANGED A DUDE ONCE
DOESN'T MEAN HE'S ALWAYS GAY" thing. That would require, like, an
acknowledgment that physical contact with a man doesn't render you
completely and forever a homosexual. Build a thousand bridges and nobody
calls you an engineer, but suck one dick!

Thx for this quote, IPGD.. Just finished having an almost-fist-fight with my 32 year old I-am-an-adult-lala-i-can-do-what-ever-I-want brother and threw him out of my house. Your quote, it made me laugh. Welcome to Signatureland <3

Modifié par Heidenreich, 10 juillet 2011 - 03:54 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

No no no, I DO understand that there are a lot of really stupid people out there who argue moronic things. If you are going to chew out people who argue that Karl didn't happen in their universe, please do. I encourage it! I'm glad to see it!

It's just that a month or two ago there was a poor girl in here who seemed perfectly nice who might have been scared away by people yelling at her for thinking of her own Anders as straight. She never argued that Karl didn't exist or wasn't Anders' old lover or anything like that, and people jumped down her throat... probably just because any mention of the words "straight" and "Anders" causes flashbacks.

As for Anders' "fall in love with the whole person" comment precluding straightness, I say "meh" to that theory. I also believe you fall in love with a whole person... just honestly most of the whole people I've been attracted to so far are dudes. So as much as I hate to say it, right now I put myself in the "straight" column. Then again I've never fallen in love, so it's entirely possible that in the future I'll fall in love with a girl. I don't see why not, I think girls are sexy, I just... haven't had a relationship with one yet, and generally when I imagine myself in a relationship with someone, it's a dude. That seems to possibly be true for Anders as well: his fantasies in DA:A are mostly about women (and yes I know that's probably mostly because he's hesitant to share a lot about himself but... it's just another piece of evidence that shows that this particular conclusion is not completely irrational.)

Basically, Gaider always heavily implies that thinking of Anders as someone who is straight is reasonable, and in fact they designed him so that people who wished to could come to that conclusion if they wished to. It is an acceptable interpretation as long as your definition of straight is wide enough to include someone who had a romantic relationship with another man in the past.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 10 juillet 2011 - 03:53 .

[ademska]

beckaliz wrote...

Hahahaha like Fenris doesn't exist if you blow off Anso.

PRETTY MUCH

"so by that logic, if you don't do the feynriel quest in act 1, he doesn't exist?"

"yeah, it wasn't part of my game so it didn't happen"

WHAT

it's just astounding to me the lengths to which some people will go to cleanse anders of lingering gayness. because, really, i can't think of any other reason to adopt this pseudo-epistemologic horse**** interpretation.

Modifié par ademska, 10 juillet 2011 - 04:01 .

[beckaliz]

Obviously things still happen even if you don't see them in BioWare games. Like in DAO, all the potential Wardens exist, but the ones you don't pick all die.  And in ME2, on Omega you hear the Batarian propaganda on the announcement system about the falling asteroid thing. I got my copy for the 360 too late so I couldn't download the DLC and duplicate that mission like I'd done it on my friend's system. So I'm a little upset that Merryn couldn't stop it. >.<;; BUT. I didn't see it. And it. still. happened.

Things you don't do/see in RPGs still happen, they just exist as things that you simply missed out on.

[ademska]

beckaliz wrote...

Obviously things still happen even if you don't see them in BioWare games. Like in DAO, all the potential Wardens exist, but the ones you don't pick all die.  And in ME2, on Omega you hear the Batarian propaganda on the announcement system about the falling asteroid thing. I got my copy for the 360 too late so I couldn't download the DLC and duplicate that mission like I'd done it on my friend's system. So I'm a little upset that Merryn couldn't stop it. >.<;; BUT. I didn't see it. And it. still. happened.

Things you don't do/see in RPGs still happen, they just exist as things that you simply missed out on.

that batarian one really drives it home for me with the dlc reconciliation.

before i appreciated sebastian as a character i really didn't want to take him into consideration in canon, but i can't just pretend he doesn't exist, i mean not really. if it's any consolation to the people upthread, though, if you didn't help him in your game he'll never know what went down with the chantry, so who knows what he's up to? at any rate, it's not swearing vengeance on anders and hawke.

[ipgd]

It's not so much the actual sentiment as the way he words it. The "Why would you shy away from loving someone just because they're like you?" line doesn't really strike me as a person who's only into dudes on a hypothetical, or just "that one time in college". At least, that's certainly not how I'd say it if I were likely to round myself up to straight; the actual idea of being straight identified sounds like it's strange to him.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Oh, I assume Sebastian finds out what happened with the Chantry no matter what. I mean Varric wrote a bloody book about it.

In that case he just doesn't know you too well. But there are probably one or two surviving witnesses who have some idea of what happened, and Sebby isn't someone know for not dedicating himself to unnecessarily bloody vengeance.