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[CulturalGeekGirl]

ipgd wrote...

It's not so much the actual sentiment as the way he words it. The "Why would you shy away from loving someone just because they're like you?" line doesn't really strike me as a person who's only into dudes on a hypothetical, or just "that one time in college". At least, that's certainly not how I'd say it if I were likely to round myself up to straight; the actual idea of being straight identified sounds like it's strange to him.

You're welcome to your interpretation.

But Gaider says that those who wish to interpret it the other way are also welcome to it. The fact that he doesn't make that speech to female Hawke may mean that it doesn't cross his mind when he's with her, because it isn't something he thinks about when he's with a woman.

OH COME ON how do I keep getting these vaguely snarky, stupid Tops? Sigh. Brb.

Hot stuff, coming through!

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 10 juillet 2011 - 04:42 .

[ademska]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Oh, I assume Sebastian finds out what happened with the Chantry no matter what. I mean Varric wrote a bloody book about it.

In that case he just doesn't know you too well. But there are probably one or two surviving witnesses who have some idea of what happened, and Sebby isn't someone know for not dedicating himself to unnecessarily bloody vengeance.

i'm not denying it's not possible for him to find out. rather, what i should say is that because he didn't hang with hawke for three years, or really at all (if not recruited they've never actually met, right?), that betrayal of letting anders live isn't as personal. he may go on a rampage or tantrum of some sort, possibly involving starkhaven, but the way i saw it a big part of his outrage is that betrayal specifically.

sort of backing this up by cassandra's flippant attitude toward anders, which implied to me that his role isn't so much a huge deal on a grand scale, but that's incredible oversimplification. i'm just talking about in terms of sebastian's theorized reaction to chantry jenga if he doesn't know either hawke or anders.

[ipgd]

I am aware. Arguing the theory is not an attempt to delegitimize it. I imagined "HURP DURP THAT'S JUST LIKE, YOUR OPINION, MAN" went without saying.

I just don't like the entire Schrodinger's Sexuality concept, given it seems to be designed more for the purpose of placating the kind of people who are outraged by the impossibility of being acquainted with four bisexual people in a video game, rather than some progressive statement about sexual identity

[ademska]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

You're welcome to your interpretation.

But Gaider says that those who wish to interpret it the other way are also welcome to it. The fact that he doesn't make that speech to female Hawke may mean that it doesn't cross his mind when he's with her, because it isn't something he thinks about when he's with a woman.

or, alternatively (and infinitely more likely), since the speech follows a flirt option he's testing the waters with male hawke, because even though ******/bi/pan/whateversexuality isn't frowned upon, it's still viewed as a quirk. "does it bother you, that i've been with men?"

but i understand what you're saying. i put no stock in the straight-possibility that you and gaider leave open, but it's still open, which is your point. even if it's really dumb.

...the straight thing, not your point. is dumb. yes.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

But two of those people are elves, and we know that all elves are bisexual. (I actually seriously really like that as a theory... if not all, then at least a significant majority of the population is, based on the sample we've seen so far.)

I don't like the Schrodinger's Sexuality argument... but I thought that term referred to the idea that it is impossible to know what anyone's sexuality is unless they state it explicitly. In Schrodinger's sexuality, we can't even assume that Sebastian is straight (or Garrus, or Jacob, or anyone).

The concept of Schrodingers sexuality was used to imply that people who assumed Anders were straight in Awakenings because he only talked about girls ever were being stupid. I disagree. I think that was a reasonable enough conclusion to make at the time. You may have to consider it in light of new data, sure. I just don't think the new data is strong enough to completely overrule the conclusion of the old data.

In high school I knew a bi guy. He was my first crush, and he made the kind of speeches Anders does about loving a whole person. After high school, he pretty much only dated women ever, and eventually just considered himself straight. If he had dated a guy again, I'm sure he would have remembered the things he used to say in high school and said "oh yeah, I guess I still believe that." Heck, I don't see why he would stop believing it even when he considers himself straight. I never asked him, though.

I'm not going to say "Anders reminds me of my high school crush" because they really couldn't have been more different people (except for the whole hotness increased because they also like dudes in some cases thing). But if you'd asked me to put together a sexual history for Anders based only on the dialogue in Awakening and my knowledge the dialogue in DA2, I would have guessed he was one of those guys who fooled around with everyone when he was in the tower, but who sort of also craved normalcy, so focused more on women during his periods of escape (thus his whole plump wife, nubile mistress thing). If he meets a male Hawke, he goes back into tower mode. If he meets a female Hawke it doesn't change his current pattern of mostly being interested in women, and thus may not change his concept of his sexuality.

Of course, my current conception of his sexuality is not defined by the "most logical answer." But I just get irritated when some poor person gets yelled at for some interpretation that is perfectly plausible, or when someone implies that their plausible conclusion is inherently better than someone else's plausible conclusion.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 10 juillet 2011 - 05:12 .

[Taihsigva]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

If he meets a male Hawke, he goes back into tower mode. If he meets a female Hawke it doesn't change his current pattern of mostly being interested in women, and thus may not change his concept of his sexuality.

Something I've struggled with/wondered about is to what extent people in Thedas actually have a concept of sexuality, or especially sexual identity, at least one similar to the way we use the terms. I can't personally recall any instance of a character referring to a type of person based on their preference in partners, or somebody identifying themselves likewise. Any in-universe discussion seems to focus strictly on the act (of sleeping with other men) rather than on the act as it defines a group of people. So I wonder how much Anders would even have a sense of himself as a person with a particular sexual identity, whether or not it's different in-game based on whether Hawke is male or female. It seems somewhat likely to me that he wouldn't necessarily think of himself as straight or bisexual/pansexual, and that instead sexuality would not be its own distinct category in his self-concept but rather an aspect of how he sees himself as a man. Because we definitely see sleeping with other men being viewed as something that 'takes away from one's manliness', so to speak - Gamlen's comment about "I guess I don't have to ask which one of you's the girl" comes immediately to mind. (And then, tangentially, the Awakening dialogues between Anders and Oghren about man-skirts also raises questions about the societal interaction between mage-hood and gender and sexuality, and... I'll stop now XD)

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Indeed, I think that it's very likely that the general perceptions about sexuality are radically different in Thedas than they are in our world. The terms we're using may well not apply at all, ill-defined and personal as they are. That's why I presented my impression of his history as a summary rather than a specific term. I think you're right, though, he might not think of "sexuality" as a concept at all.

[Jean]

ipgd wrote...

And another quote for the ANDERS NEVER SLEPT WITH KARL BECAUSE HE DOESN'T MENTION IT TO FEMALE HAWKE ****fests:

"No matter who the player is, Karl was always someone [Anders] was romantically involved with," says Gaider. "The part of him the player is exposed to, however, is different. Anders doesn't mention Karl to a female Hawke because Jennifer Hepler [Anders' writer] didn't think he would -- and also because a player who prefers to think of Anders as straight is welcome to do so."

I find this rather indisputable

[ademska]

Batteries wrote...

I find this rather indisputable

you would think, right?


@CGG

i basically feel like gaider's statement:

and also because a player who prefers to think of Anders as straight is welcome to do so

is followed with a silent, "but they'd be wrong," or at the very least, "but this is a willful interpretation and bid at ignorance for the sake of roleplay". feel free to correct me, mr. gaider.

perhaps it makes me pigheaded, and i'm not condoning jumping down the throat of that one girl you mentioned, but i have great difficulty seeing any real reason for diminishing the impact of anders' sexuality statement that isn't threaded in unfortunate implications. your posited explanation of anders forgoing sex with men after his escape, and then, if hawke is female, simply not falling back into that view of sexuality is totally fine on its own, but anyone who wants to rationalize anders as straight in the first place is incredibly suspect.

what real reason can you have for that, honestly? you can't just will away aspects of a character because you don't like them or find them inconsistent, and either of those reasons is... well, just awful.

Modifié par ademska, 10 juillet 2011 - 08:05 .

[TotoroTori]

ipgd wrote...

And another quote for the ANDERS NEVER SLEPT WITH KARL BECAUSE HE DOESN'T MENTION IT TO FEMALE HAWKE ****fests:

"No matter who the player is, Karl was always someone [Anders] was romantically involved with," says Gaider. "The part of him the player is exposed to, however, is different. Anders doesn't mention Karl to a female Hawke because Jennifer Hepler [Anders' writer] didn't think he would -- and also because a player who prefers to think of Anders as straight is welcome to do so."

Why does that actually kinda seem a little sexy?

[Jean]

Beside the eye color, the striking resemblance between me and that boy feels appropriate.

[syllogi]

TotoroTori wrote...

ipgd wrote...

And another quote for the ANDERS NEVER SLEPT WITH KARL BECAUSE HE DOESN'T MENTION IT TO FEMALE HAWKE ****fests:

"No matter who the player is, Karl was always someone [Anders] was romantically involved with," says Gaider. "The part of him the player is exposed to, however, is different. Anders doesn't mention Karl to a female Hawke because Jennifer Hepler [Anders' writer] didn't think he would -- and also because a player who prefers to think of Anders as straight is welcome to do so."

Why does that actually kinda seem a little sexy?

Even though I only romance him with a female character, I do find the idea of bisexual Anders sexy.  I do wish that there was a conversation with FemHawke about his relationship with Karl, even if it were in a later Act, but I understand why they left it out.

[AstoundingArcaneArcher]

I don't care about his sexuality. That's just a preferance of which gender he likes to bed. Whether, he's gay or not it shouldn't define his character and if he's gay it does not mean that he cannot love the other sex. I didn'r romance him in DA2 because he wasn't the same Anders I romannced in Awakenings. Besides, with the amount of LGBT people in Thedas, you wonder if anyone thinks or cares about sexuality at all. Heh, this reminds me about the sexuality debate on Kanji in Persona 4.

[Heidenreich]

AstoundingArcaneArcher wrote...

I don't care about his sexuality. That's just a preferance of which gender he likes to bed. Whether, he's gay or not it shouldn't define his character and if he's gay it does not mean that he cannot love the other sex. I didn'r romance him in DA2 because he wasn't the same Anders I romannced in Awakenings. Besides, with the amount of LGBT people in Thedas, you wonder if anyone thinks or cares about sexuality at all. Heh, this reminds me about the sexuality debate on Kanji in Persona 4.

Except you couldn't romance him in Awakening, but, I'm cranky and like to nitpick.

[berelinde]

Heidenreich wrote...

AstoundingArcaneArcher wrote...

I don't care about his sexuality. That's just a preferance of which gender he likes to bed. Whether, he's gay or not it shouldn't define his character and if he's gay it does not mean that he cannot love the other sex. I didn'r romance him in DA2 because he wasn't the same Anders I romannced in Awakenings. Besides, with the amount of LGBT people in Thedas, you wonder if anyone thinks or cares about sexuality at all. Heh, this reminds me about the sexuality debate on Kanji in Persona 4.

Except you couldn't romance him in Awakening, but, I'm cranky and like to nitpick.

You could get him up to 100% love, though, which I always thought was a bit unfair. I so wanted my Amell Warden to have a rebound relationship with him after Alistair dumped her. But that's why there's headcanon.

Edit: Gah, too many names that start with A.

Modifié par berelinde, 10 juillet 2011 - 01:00 .

[ipgd]

SLEEPING IS COOL

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I don't like the Schrodinger's Sexuality argument... but I thought that term referred to the idea that it is impossible to know what anyone's sexuality is unless they state it explicitly. In Schrodinger's sexuality, we can't even assume that Sebastian is straight (or Garrus, or Jacob, or anyone).

The concept of Schrodingers sexuality was used to imply that people who assumed Anders were straight in Awakenings because he only talked about girls ever were being stupid. I disagree. I think that was a reasonable enough conclusion to make at the time. You may have to consider it in light of new data, sure. I just don't think the new data is strong enough to completely overrule the conclusion of the old data.

By "Schrodinger's Sexuality" I am referring specifically to, like, the actual Copenhagen interpretation, where the character's sexuality is literally in flux until it is observed by the player, after which point it literally collapses into being either gay or straight depending on the gender of the player.

And I really don't think "assuming he was straight because he only talked about girls is stupid" was the point of that other argument. The standpoint that was answering was usually "Anders's character was RETCONNED and CHANGED HORRIBLY he's a TOTALLY DIFFERENT CHARACTER NOW THAT HE BANGS DUDES", which, lolno. An assumption is an assumption whether or not you have a 95% chance of being right, and Anders jumping on the rainbow train in DA2 does not constitute a retcon because no established facts were contradicted. Anders did not, in fact, establish his sexuality to the exclusion of an interest in men.

Of course, my current conception of his sexuality is not defined by the "most logical answer." But I just get irritated when some poor person gets yelled at for some interpretation that is perfectly plausible, or when someone implies that their plausible conclusion is inherently better than someone else's plausible conclusion.

a) I think my plausible conclusion is more plausible than the other plausible conclusions, which is why I argue about it, but arguing about it isn't really a statement totally and utterly devaluing any merit to the argument, I've never yelled at anyone for arguing for differing sexual identities, c) the people who actually argue about this are very, very rarely talking about sexual identity. They very, very rarely even know what sexual identity is. It's more often than not a matter of sticking their fingers in their ears going LA LA LA LA LA because the gay makes them uncomfortable and they would prefer to think of Anders as being totally purged of any ******. If anyone actually outright said "I believe Anders had relationships with men in the past and is capable of being attracted to men but rounds himself up to straight with female Hawke", okay, whatever, but they never do. I've never seen that argument from anyone in those noxious bisexuality ****fest threads; it's always that they believe Anders's sexuality is changed on the base level, that his relationship with Karl did not exist, and that he does not, can not, and has never had any interest in men.

The fact that door is left open doesn't make the reasoning behind it any less irritating to me, and why I dislike the fact that's a door left open at all.

Modifié par ipgd, 10 juillet 2011 - 02:39 .

[beckaliz]

My brother's gay. And most of my good friends have "non-standard" sexual identities. Granted, most of my good friends are also furries... so they have identity issues period...

It's just one more of those things that I think, why is it so hard for people to accept a person/character for the way they are? Saying you prefer to think of a character as straight, as in "I would rather think he'd never slept with any guys at all", is not the same as "I think of him as straight, but I know he's been with guys in the past, he just prefers women now".

Then there's headcanon. If someone wants to headcanon that Anders is 100% vanilla with a female Hawke, fine, whatever. But this doesn't give them the right to be cranky about the writers telling us that Anders is bi... Because he's their character, and they're just revealing a little more about him to us. Don't people want to learn more? ;;; It's not fair to Anders' writers or to Anders himself to change who he is to suit a personal preference.

However. Another thing to consider is that a lot of people do not have the same felicity of speech that some of the regulars on this thread do. They won't necessarily be able to properly articulate their thoughts and opinions on such a matter. Someone might make an off-hand comment which, unbeknownst to them, hits a nerve. And, from my perspective, I see a lot of issues that come out of things that I consider to be purely a matter of semantics.

Damn I hate semantics. There's so much subtlety to speech that people just don't get. Like the difference between the words "excuse" and "reason". *twitch* It makes it that much harder to communicate online with just the written word to try and fill in the void left by the absence of nonverbal communication.

Modifié par beckaliz, 10 juillet 2011 - 03:36 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

beckaliz wrote...

My brother's gay. And most of my good friends have "non-standard" sexual identities. Granted, most of my good friends are also furries... so they have identity issues period...

Um, I hope "furries" is not as bad as I think it is.
What does that mean?

[beckaliz]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

beckaliz wrote...

My brother's gay. And most of my good friends have "non-standard" sexual identities. Granted, most of my good friends are also furries... so they have identity issues period...

Um, I hope "furries" is not as bad as I think it is.
What does that mean?

Wikipedia does a decent job explaining, I suppose. Better than I could, anyway.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Oh. I see.

[leggywillow]

TeenZombie wrote...

TotoroTori wrote...
Why does that actually kinda seem a little sexy?

Even though I only romance him with a female character, I do find the idea of bisexual Anders sexy.

 After telling Lady Hawke about Karl
Anders: ...Hawke?  Why are you leering at me like that?
Hawke:

[beckaliz]

I CAME OUT CLEAN AND I CAME OUT CREEPIN

Reminds me of the conversation I stumbled upon in here a couple weeks ago about Anders and the mayonnaise. Creeping around Hawke's house...

Modifié par beckaliz, 10 juillet 2011 - 04:18 .

[syllogi]

leggywillow wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...

TotoroTori wrote...
Why does that actually kinda seem a little sexy?

Even though I only romance him with a female character, I do find the idea of bisexual Anders sexy.

 After telling Lady Hawke about Karl
Anders: ...Hawke?  Why are you leering at me like that?
Hawke:  *creeper snip*

LOL, I swear, it's not like that...mostly.  I'm not interested in m/m romances, but the idea of a character who has a past, with actual relationships (and not just the :dead wife-dead/kidnapped/abandoned child: kind of relationships) is appealing.  Knowing that Anders and Karl were former lovers made him more "real" to me, if that makes any sense.

But yes, if my Hawke had gotten that tearful conversation where Anders talked about Karl, she would have been all:

[berelinde]

TeenZombie wrote...
But yes, if my Hawke had gotten that tearful conversation where Anders talked about Karl, she would have been all:

I realize that this post will be ignored, but I must ask. What is that clip? That creeper that comes in from the left reminds me disturbingly of my Sig O's foster son. (Who is actually an honorable, upstanding person who merely looks scary, sometimes.)