57020 réponses à ce sujet

[BlueMew]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
 I guess if it's better to not even try to accomodate people's imaginations, I could go back to the "canonical sexualities throughout the spectrum" stance.

Why? Because someone disagrees? See, I'm someone else and I disagree with "canonical sexualities throughout the spectrum". So you would change your opinion for ipgd but not for me? *sniff* I'm wounded! :innocent:

I wouldn't throw a fit about the toggle option, but I was absolutely right in predicting that some people would have a problem with it! So can't we just, you know, leave thingsunchanged? Don't fix what's not broken? I mean... it's a computer game. It's meant to be enjoyed. It's not a manifesto.

But I very, very much agree with you that you shouldn't chain people's imaginations when it's so easy not to. If I want realism, I'd play a "roleplay" game in which I'm a 30-year-old unemployed straight female who hates sorting out bills, loves cats and goes to the supermarket once a day. 

Edit for top:

Modifié par BlueMew, 11 juillet 2011 - 06:07 .

[ladyofpayne]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Who youn ganna call?

[Evilnor]

I love the fact you can flirt with people in DA2 who just don't really respond to you, either. It'd be funnier and more realistic if there were a few who turned you down flat based on your conversations/reactions/inappropriateness.

Honestly, though, I think people make too big a deal out of sexuality. You should like or hate a person based on who they are rather than who they like to bed. To do otherwise, I feel, is a disservice to the person, be they real or fictional.

[ademska]

okay, so how about this:

there's a lot being said abut 'harem' syndrome and whatnot as the undoubted consequence of opening nine love interests across a series for all genders. why is this undoubtedly the case?

that's rhetorical, because anyone who's played mass effect for three seconds knows that their romance system requires you to navigate sometimes very tricky dialogue paths and pay the closest attention to avoid flirting with the wrong person. i mean, this is the general complaint, right? and i won't disagree that it's perfectly understandable.

so why not just... make subtle changes to the romance system itself, instead of all this limiting nonsense? da2 had specifically-marked flirt options, why not implement something to that degree in mass effect? or, i dunno, some other sort of alteration to the system that doesn't have you walking on eggshells in every conversation.

the only other counterpoint to open mass effect love interests is the varied-spectrum argument, but when most of the love interests are aliens who can be easily handwaved to not distinguish male humans from females sexually, that argument holds just no water at all.

edit: please note, a distinctly-noted flirt option does not preclude the possibility of other character flirting with the pc, like anders or kaidan. hell, it should be a prerequisite in a game with romance options.

Modifié par ademska, 11 juillet 2011 - 06:33 .

[SurelyForth]

ademska wrote...


edit: please note, a distinctly-noted flirt option does not preclude the possibility of other character flirting with the pc, like anders or kaidan. hell, it should be a prerequisite in a game with romance options.

Your suggestion is a good one, but I would tweak this a bit.

ME doesn't give you squad approval, or any sort of paragon/renegade points for how you interact with your companions. If Kaidan/Liara flirt with you and you reject them, they're cool. I think that had Anders' flirting not been tied to a conversation where rejecting him resulted in a sizeable rivalry hit when the only way to get him to flirt in the first place is by being nice to him, it wouldn't be as big a deal as it is. While it's in character, it's also frustrating from a player's perspective because there's no way to not lead him on that isn't outright rejection and you get dinged with rivalry when you were trying to be supportive. So either keep it to conversations where approval/rivalry/whatever can't be effected, or make the responses more nuanced.

[Ryzaki]

I always thought the easiest thing to do is not make it so that the s/s options (or any character at all) hit on the player without the player picking the obvious flirt choice is obvious. 

Therefore if you see TEH GAY you have no one to blame but yourself.

SurelyForth wrote...
ME doesn't give you squad approval, or any sort of paragon/renegade points for how you interact with your companions. If Kaidan/Liara flirt with you and you reject them, they're cool. I think that had Anders' flirting not been tied to a conversation where rejecting him resulted in a sizeable rivalry hit when the only way to get him to flirt in the first place is by being nice to him, it wouldn't be as big a deal as it is. While it's in character, it's also frustrating from a player's perspective because there's no way to not lead him on that isn't outright rejection and you get dinged with rivalry when you were trying to be supportive. So either keep it to conversations where approval/rivalry/whatever can't be effected, or make the responses more nuanced.

Agreed. It was the sudden rivalry hit that lead to most of the complaining. ME doesn't have that so it shouldn't be an issue.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 11 juillet 2011 - 06:53 .

[esper]

The game needs a let them down easy option, but I think that many had said that.

[ademska]

SurelyForth wrote...

Your suggestion is a good one, but I would tweak this a bit.

ME doesn't give you squad approval, or any sort of paragon/renegade points for how you interact with your companions. If Kaidan/Liara flirt with you and you reject them, they're cool. I think that had Anders' flirting not been tied to a conversation where rejecting him resulted in a sizeable rivalry hit when the only way to get him to flirt in the first place is by being nice to him, it wouldn't be as big a deal as it is. While it's in character, it's also frustrating from a player's perspective because there's no way to not lead him on that isn't outright rejection and you get dinged with rivalry when you were trying to be supportive. So either keep it to conversations where approval/rivalry/whatever can't be effected, or make the responses more nuanced.

i understand people don't want to hurt their companions' feelings or, more meta, take a point hit when they're trying to build in the other direction, but i love that anders took a rivalry hit. this is the man who falls completely in love with hawke, of course he's going to be disappointed when told nothing will ever happen between them. of course, while this is effective, i'm not advocating it for every character. just as the f/r system was tailored to build characterization re: personal beliefs, i think it could work similarly for romance rejections. anders is a big ol' sensie, of course he's going to be seriously disappointed, but others might not feel that way. if zevran had a f/r bar, as nuanced as he is, before there's any real connection and he's just flirting, gently turning him down would likely result in no rivalry gain.

now, if you want to add different degrees of rejection dialogue, with lesser rivalry (or similarly negative) points depending on how lightly you let him down, i could get behind that.

@Ryzaki
good god, no. if someone is interested in you and flirts with you, well that's just how life is, it doesn't matter their gender. anders' flirting comes of being especially nice to him when he's distressed. if people don't like that, tough ******.

with anders, it was a huge part of his character that he could make the first move. i wouldn't ever be okay with losing that  to placate the POOR DISTRESSED MASSES

Modifié par ademska, 11 juillet 2011 - 07:05 .

[SurelyForth]

@ademska That's what I mean when I said the responses should be more nuanced. The outright rejection one is so blunt, I can't blame him for being upset about it, but the only other options are to pursue or lead him on. A let him down gently option would have been awesome. Especially since, as I said before, the only way to get him to flirt with you is to be nice to him. It sucks that you get caught in a place where you can't be nice without leading him on.

[ademska]

SurelyForth wrote...

@ademska That's what I mean when I said the responses should be more nuanced. The outright rejection one is so blunt, I can't blame him for being upset about it, but the only other options are to pursue or lead him on. A let him down gently option would have been awesome. Especially since, as I said before, the only way to get him to flirt with you is to be nice to him. It sucks that you get caught in a place where you can't be nice without leading him on.

yeah, i can see that. i typically romance him or metagame not-nice options so i don't get the dialogue and don't have to see his sad puppy eyes because i just can't do it--

but now that i think about it, the dialogue that leads into his flirting and the subsequent rejection sort of comes off like

' anders i think you did the right thing with the spirits and the friends and whatnot and you're a really cool guy'
' i like you oh gosh i'm sorry is that okay'
'NO ****** BRO BACK OFF'

but still, if my options are to have a scripted anders flirt with no easy letdown or no anders flirt at all, i'm always gonna go with scripted anders flirt. his attachment to hawke is a huge, huge part of his character, and sacrificing it to avoid a few points of rivalry gain destroys a big part of him. i know that's not what you're arguing, but a lot of other people seem to be in this camp, and it drives me batty.

Modifié par ademska, 11 juillet 2011 - 07:18 .

[Jean]

Hnnnng I really do wish the first Mass Effect had heart icons like Dragon Age. Kaidan ninjamancing was awful.

Kaidan: So, uh, hey. You get this personal with the whole crew?

To a degree <- Nope. Just you.

Shepard: Pretty much. But that doesn't mean I enjoy it with everyone.
Kaidan: I'll need to take some time to uh, process that, ma'am.

THAT'S NOT WHAT I JUST TOLD YOU TO SAY, SHEPARD.

[esper]

@admaska. I think I would be fine with a rivalry + 10 for a blunt rejection and a riverly + 5 for a nice rejection - or something like that. It just sucks because there is no way for that of my Hawkes who is quite sweet, but not interested in men to gently tell him no. Perhaps the broken heart options shoulder also differ by personality.

[ademska]

Batteries wrote...

Hnnnng I really do wish the first Mass Effect had heart icons like Dragon Age. Kaidan ninjamancing was awful.

Kaidan: So, uh, hey. You get this personal with the whole crew?

To a degree <- Nope. Just you.

Shepard: Pretty much. But that doesn't mean I enjoy it with everyone.
Kaidan: I'll need to take some time to uh, process that, ma'am.

THAT'S NOT WHAT I JUST TOLD YOU TO SAY, SHEPARD.

haaaaaa my friend who's playing mass effect for the first time and saving herself for garrus texted me angrily about this literally like

five minutes ago

some people may **** and moan about handholding but they can deal with it. the paraphrase system will never be perfect, and at least adding a notation just for flirt options would solve SO MANY PROBLEMS. it's a shame luke barrett's mass effect team equivalent isn't holding a thread about gameplay right now or i'd be all over it with my poorly-worded spamming.

Modifié par ademska, 11 juillet 2011 - 07:23 .

[beckaliz]

I personally don't think they need to change anything.

As I said, following the idea of being able to indicate to the game what type of personality Hawke has, they would likely be able to let you indicate to the game what preferences your PC has. This wouldn't change the LIs themselves, but would affect how they interact with the PC. You could also change your mind later and take initiative to flirt with whatever LI you want.

I hate having to put a disclaimer in, but here it is: I'm just brainstorming. I don't really want them to do something like this. But if they did, it would be as close to a compromise as they'd likely get, if they were really worried about alienating h0m0f0b3z. I don't think they are though. I don't want them to be. Like ademska says, if people have a problem with it, tough ******. :B


Anders, well... Who cares about his rivalry hit? lol. He's soooooo easy to max out the approval scale in one direction or another!

[Ryzaki]

ademska wrote..
@Ryzaki
good god, no. if someone is interested in you and flirts with you, well that's just how life is, it doesn't matter their gender. anders' flirting comes of being especially nice to him when he's distressed. if people don't like that, tough ******.

with anders, it was a huge part of his character that he could make the first move. i wouldn't ever be okay with losing that  to placate the POOR DISTRESSED MASSES

The people are gonna react badly then. That's just life. People reacted badly to Tali flirting with dude Shep. Sometimes it has squat to do with homophobia somepeople don't want to get hit on period. 

So tough ****** for anyone having to deal with their complaining. 

*shrugs* 

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

It would be nice with a simple "I'm flattered, but not interested" rather than "ew, don't think about me like that", which is... ouch. Way to be an ass, Hawke.

 

The best route would be a polite rejection and a WHAT THE **** NO NO NO! rejection. I really wanted to use the latter with Tali but all I was stuck with was the formre. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 11 juillet 2011 - 07:26 .

[ademska]

Ryzaki wrote...

The people are gonna react badly then. That's just life. People reacted badly to Tali flirting with dude Shep. Sometimes it has squat to do with homophobia somepeople don't want to get hit on period. 

So tough ****** for anyone having to deal with their complaining. 

*shrugs*

they can react badly, and yeah, it is tough ****** for me... unless someone starts spouting homophobic bull****, then it's entirely their problem. that said, my sheps don't want kaidan hitting on them, and in mass effect it's harder to avoid, but i understand it is a part of his character and i thus appreciate it literarily, if not from a role-play perspective.

this applies as much to tali and kaidan as it does to anders, but i won't sacrifice characterization for player comfort, and i'm glad bioware seems to agree.

edit EMILY TYPE WORDS AND READ THEM BEFORE POSTING JESUS

Modifié par ademska, 11 juillet 2011 - 07:33 .

[ipgd]

beckaliz wrote...

As I said, following the idea of being able to indicate to the game what type of personality Hawke has, they would likely be able to let you indicate to the game what preferences your PC has. This wouldn't change the LIs themselves, but would affect how they interact with the PC. You could also change your mind later and take initiative to flirt with whatever LI you want.

Like I said before, this would change absolutely nothing about the game as it is. All this would do is move the "toggle" that already exists in the game from a dialogue with the character in question to the character creation screen. What else besides attempting to make people who are bothered by homosexuality more comfortable would this accomplish?

[upsettingshorts]

It might work if and only if the "change later" option reflected the change in status. So you could roleplay someone whose sexual preference had been revealed (or changed, or however you want to think about it) upon meeting this individual.

Even then that's probably a weak justification for a feature that would really only appeal to people who want to "turn off the gay."

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 11 juillet 2011 - 07:38 .

[beckaliz]

ipgd wrote...

beckaliz wrote...

As I said, following the idea of being able to indicate to the game what type of personality Hawke has, they would likely be able to let you indicate to the game what preferences your PC has. This wouldn't change the LIs themselves, but would affect how they interact with the PC. You could also change your mind later and take initiative to flirt with whatever LI you want.

Like I said before, this would change absolutely nothing about the game as it is. All this would do is move the "toggle" that already exists in the game from a dialogue with the character in question to the character creation screen. What else besides attempting to make people who are bothered by homosexuality more comfortable would this accomplish?

Eh, who knows. I haven't exactly been involved in the same epic battles that I believe you've been in regarding the subject. I don't have a strong enough opinion about it to put more thought into it than an offhanded contemplation.

[SurelyForth]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

It might work if and only if the "change later" option reflected the change in status. So you could roleplay someone whose sexual preference had been revealed (or changed, or however you want to think about it) upon meeting this individual.

Even then that's probably a weak justification for a feature that would really only appeal to people who want to "turn off the gay."

Actually, I wouldn't mind turning off all potential romances sometimes. It's hard to roleplay certain characters (like a mean, ugly female Warden, for example) when the game defaults you to being a desirable and sexual being.

[beckaliz]

SurelyForth wrote...

Actually, I wouldn't mind turning off all potential romances sometimes. It's hard to roleplay certain characters (like a mean, ugly female Warden, for example) when the game defaults you to being a desirable and sexual being.

HAHAHAHAHA

NPC: "WAU U R LIEK SO PRETTY AND AMAZING :O"
Butt-ugly PC: "lolwut orly"

Modifié par beckaliz, 11 juillet 2011 - 07:58 .

[Heidenreich]

ademska wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

@ademska That's what I mean when I said the responses should be more nuanced. The outright rejection one is so blunt, I can't blame him for being upset about it, but the only other options are to pursue or lead him on. A let him down gently option would have been awesome. Especially since, as I said before, the only way to get him to flirt with you is to be nice to him. It sucks that you get caught in a place where you can't be nice without leading him on.

yeah, i can see that. i typically romance him or metagame not-nice options so i don't get the dialogue and don't have to see his sad puppy eyes because i just can't do it--

but now that i think about it, the dialogue that leads into his flirting and the subsequent rejection sort of comes off like

' anders i think you did the right thing with the spirits and the friends and whatnot and you're a really cool guy'
' i like you oh gosh i'm sorry is that okay'
'NO ****** BRO BACK OFF'

but still, if my options are to have a scripted anders flirt with no easy letdown or no anders flirt at all, i'm always gonna go with scripted anders flirt. his attachment to hawke is a huge, huge part of his character, and sacrificing it to avoid a few points of rivalry gain destroys a big part of him. i know that's not what you're arguing, but a lot of other people seem to be in this camp, and it drives me batty.

ACTUALLY..

In act 2, you can FLIRT LIKE MAD with him durring his QB and even the end of his personal quest. Once its done he's all "Are you sure you want to do this? Because I'll hurt you unintentionally."

you can select the Heartbreak option THERE, and recieve no rivalry because Hawkes all "... you know, you're probably right. I'm not sure I could handle that. I'm sorry. I'll stop".

and he's all "No hard feelings, Hawke. We're still friends.", and it turns off the romance with out so much as a + anything.

So yea, there is a let down gently option. You just have to pick the right choices ;p

Modifié par Heidenreich, 11 juillet 2011 - 08:00 .