57020 réponses à ce sujet

[ademska]

SurelyForth wrote...

Actually, I wouldn't mind turning off all potential romances sometimes. It's hard to roleplay certain characters (like a mean, ugly female Warden, for example) when the game defaults you to being a desirable and sexual being.

well, turning everyone off isn't quite the same as toggling sexualities, though it can still be problematic with (nut)cases like anders. in fact, i'd argue at least tali and anders are in love with shep and hawke respectively because of who they are rather than how they act. afaik, the only way to turn tali off is to be a GIANT MASSIVE **** at her trial, and even with torpor anders' other love indicators (jealousy with other LIs) still trigger. so i'm still faced with a serious issue of sacrificing characterization for player comfort.

i mean, it's not analagous to roleplaying anders as straight from a standpoint of stigma and intent, but if i drew out a logic table it would be.

also,

Modifié par ademska, 11 juillet 2011 - 08:02 .

[ademska]

Heidenreich wrote...

ACTUALLY..

In act 2, you can FLIRT LIKE MAD with him durring his QB and even the end of his personal quest. Once its done he's all "Are you sure you want to do this? Because I'll hurt you unintentionally."

you can select the Heartbreak option THERE, and recieve no rivalry because Hawkes all "... you know, you're probably right. I'm not sure I could handle that. I'm sorry. I'll stop".

and he's all "No hard feelings, Hawke. We're still friends.", and it turns off the romance with out so much as a + anything.

So yea, there is a let down gently option. You just have to pick the right choices ;p

if you're a man, i don't think he gives you that dialogue because there's generally not so much zomg i'm gonna hurt you banter from anders to male hawke.

but i could be wrong, because i am incapable of playing male hawke and not gettin it on with anders every goddamn time.

and on female hawke, you've still got to potentially string the poor thing along for three years before letting him down gently. besides, it's not so much about the rivalry gain to most people as it is the role-play, that is, most people don't want hawke to go all DUDE BACK THE **** OFF, they'd rather be nicer about it. which i can understand.

[esper]

@Ademska... that comic... that Hawke... is just.... I don't know whereever to laugh or cry.

[Heidenreich]

ademska wrote...

Heidenreich wrote...

ACTUALLY..

In act 2, you can FLIRT LIKE MAD with him durring his QB and even the end of his personal quest. Once its done he's all "Are you sure you want to do this? Because I'll hurt you unintentionally."

you can select the Heartbreak option THERE, and recieve no rivalry because Hawkes all "... you know, you're probably right. I'm not sure I could handle that. I'm sorry. I'll stop".

and he's all "No hard feelings, Hawke. We're still friends.", and it turns off the romance with out so much as a + anything.

So yea, there is a let down gently option. You just have to pick the right choices ;p

if you're a man, i don't think he gives you that dialogue because there's generally not so much zomg i'm gonna hurt you banter from anders to male hawke.

but i could be wrong, because i am incapable of playing male hawke and not gettin it on with anders every goddamn time.

and on female hawke, you've still got to potentially string the poor thing along for three years before letting him down gently. besides, it's not so much about the rivalry gain to most people as it is the role-play, that is, most people don't want hawke to go all DUDE BACK THE **** OFF, they'd rather be nicer about it. which i can understand.

and now my goal for this evening is to investigate this. For Science, of course!

[CulturalGeekGirl]

The funny thing is that the romances I want have pretty much always been available to the characters I want to play, and I don't have any issue with the characters they've chosen to have be bisexual in the past. The only two exceptions (Morrigan and Tali) have been my romantic 'third choice' in that particular game, so it's incredibly low stakes for me, seeing as I rarely get around to my third choice romance at all. I mostly got into this discussion in the first place because three female friends of mine all wanted to romance three different unavailable women in Mass Effect, and I was trying to imagine a system where they could do so without stuff gettin' crazy.

Having little-to-no dog in this fight, at this point all I can say is I understand why this has been so difficult for Bioware, and I do not envy them their position in having to solve this. I do not envy them that at all, and I bow to them for being as reasonable as they have been so far.

The one thing I do want to say is that a lot of ME players are violently opposed to the idea of flirt icons for some reason I cannot entirely fathom. So even that seemingly reasonable solution to the ninjamancing problem you get when you have a very large cast of romanceables would be incredibly controversial. I do think that at least some characters should hit on the PC first, regardless of the system, because that happens. In life. I also think that more characters should have romances unlocked only after certain quests or dialogue choices, like Garrus's "not romanceable if you didn't recruit him in ME" flag, which was just brilliant, and showed how much the romance related to shared history. That's seriously one of my favorite things.

Also, Yahtzee and Tycho have particularly interesting things to say about the issue.

[FieryDove]

ademska wrote...

if you're a man, i don't think he gives you that dialogue because there's generally not so much zomg i'm gonna hurt you banter from anders to male hawke.

There isn't *any* I'm gonna hurt you or break your heart or this will be a disaster with a male hawke. I tried with a male mage/warrior/rogue and its far different...more I don't know the word, accepting? than with female Hawke.

Note: this was all friendship path and no aggressive Hawke. Diplo/sarcastic only.

[ademska]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

The funny thing is that the romances I want have pretty much always been available to the characters I want to play, and I don't have any issue with the characters they've chosen to have be bisexual in the past. The only two exceptions (Morrigan and Tali) have been my romantic 'third choice' in that particular game, so it's incredibly low stakes for me, seeing as I rarely get around to my third choice romance at all. I mostly got into this discussion in the first place because three female friends of mine all wanted to romance three different unavailable women in Mass Effect, and I was trying to imagine a system where they could do so without stuff gettin' crazy.

Having little-to-no dog in this fight, at this point all I can say is I understand why this has been so difficult for Bioware, and I do not envy them their position in having to solve this. I do not envy them that at all, and I bow to them for being as reasonable as they have been so far.

The one thing I do want to say is that a lot of ME players are violently opposed to the idea of flirt icons for some reason I cannot entirely fathom. So even that seemingly reasonable solution to the ninjamancing problem you get when you have a very large cast of romanceables would be incredibly controversial. I do think that at least some characters should hit on the PC first, regardless of the system, because that happens. In life. I also think that more characters should have romances unlocked only after certain quests or dialogue choices, like Garrus's "not romanceable if you didn't recruit him in ME" flag, which was just brilliant, and showed how much the romance related to shared history. That's seriously one of my favorite things.

Also, Yahtzee and Tycho have particularly interesting things to say about the issue.

meanwhile, i'm a big 'mo who finds herself almost completely uninterested in heterosexual non-alien relationships because i'm just so uninvested and, more importantly, oversaturated with them in every media ever. bioware is the first aaa company to ever offer me s/s romance paths that go deeper than typical 'gay romance' stereotypes, and i can't love them enough for it. thanks to them, i can sexually and emotionally identify on a level equivalent to everyone else here and join in the analysis of a character whose depth far transcends my ability to **** him as a guy.

it's just indescribably awesome, and i can't do that to the same level in mass effect, so i've pretty much got mastiffs in this fight.

mass effect players are implacable either way (just look at this tali-face debacle), and if having even the slightest hint of a flirt notation, even just REALLY DELIBERATELY OBVIOUS paraphrase, would mean i get to romance ashley or miranda or whoever in a way that i find personally far more meaningful, then as far as i'm concerned they can suck it. my solution is incredibly reasonable.

all on you with the garrus thing, too. romances are a huge part of bioware games in part because they build characterization so well.

Modifié par ademska, 11 juillet 2011 - 09:05 .

[FieryDove]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

He still says that he tried to hold back on the friendship path in act two. So he is still not entirely comfortable with exposing a male Hawke to the dangers of being in a relationship with him. But it's vanishingly little compared to what he tells female Hawke, so there's that.

Yes, he does say try to hold back to both Hawke's.

Someone in a thread a long time ago said it was because Anders cares more about a female hawke than a male. I disagree but whatever people will think what they like.

[ademska]

FieryDove wrote...

Yes, he does say try to hold back to both Hawke's.

Someone in a thread a long time ago said it was because Anders cares more about a female hawke than a male. I disagree but whatever people will think what they like.

wowwwww then that person was a moron and a jackass.

it's just a weird differing dynamic that can be interpreted in a number of ways... a lot of them Unfortunate, but definitely not a difference in Arbitrary Anders Lovin' Levels. that's just silly.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

ademska wrote...
meanwhile, i'm a big 'mo who finds herself almost completely uninterested in heterosexual non-alien relationships because i'm just so uninvested and, more importantly, oversaturated with them in every media ever. bioware is the first aaa company to ever offer me s/s romance paths that go deeper than typical 'gay romance' stereotypes, and i can't love them enough for it. thanks to them, i can sexually and emotionally identify on a level equivalent to everyone else here and join in the analysis of a character whose depth far transcends my ability to **** him as a guy.

it's just indescribably awesome, and i can't do that to the same level in mass effect, so i've pretty much got mastiffs in this fight.

mass effect players are implacable either way (just look at this tali-face debacle), and if having even the slightest hint of a flirt notation, even just REALLY DELIBERATELY OBVIOUS paraphrase, would mean i get to romance ashley or miranda or whoever in a way that i find personally far more meaningful, then as far as i'm concerned they can suck it. my solution is incredibly reasonable.

all on you with the garrus thing, too. romances are a huge part of bioware games in part because they build characterization so well.

I'm not trying to diminish anyone else's feelings here, just withdraw a bit because I have nothing to gain and coming up with compromises just results in that whole "angry letters from both sides" thing.

Ultimately I do think there is value in having party members of different sexualities, but we already have that, and there's no sign that we're going to lose it, so there's no reason for me to campaign for it (though I would still like a canonically gay DA or ME squadmate at SOME point, even if they aren't romanceable). I can come up with interesting ways to portray different sexualities while also allowing romantic freedom until the cows come home, but nobody's interested in any solutions beyond their own favorite one, on any of the various sides of the argument. Which I can understand. At the very least, no matter what, I hope Bioware records full versions of the dialogue for all the gender combinations, so the modders can decide to add back in any of the ones that BW decides not to make canon.

That said, I think the ME players usually are suggesting that flirt icons are too much like hand-holding... basically they'd rather have Ashley ninjamance their femsheps than resort to the icon system... I personally prefer the clearly worded paraphrase option myself. Garrus's is the best example of this: you pick something obvious, and then have a quick chance to change your mind. Also, the earlier you decide to back out, the easier he takes it. Basically, Garrus is the best. >_>

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 11 juillet 2011 - 09:17 .

[esper]

I like that there is a difference between male and female romance... It makes it feels like Anders are aware of my Hawke's gender. I really feared genderless conversations when the all-bi was annouced.

[ademska]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I'm not trying to diminish anyone else's feelings here, just withdraw a bit because I have nothing to gain and coming up with compromises just results in that whole "angry letters from both sides" thing.

oh no, i know, i wasn't accusing you of anything <3 just rationalizing why i personally get so vehement in these discussions.

Ultimately I do think there is value in having party members of different sexualities, but we already have that, and there's no sign that we're going to lose it, so there's no reason for me to campaign for it (though I would still like a canonically gay DA or ME squadmate at SOME point, even if they aren't romanceable). I can come up with interesting ways to portray different sexualities while also allowing romantic freedom until the cows come home, but nobody's interested in any solutions beyond their own favorite one, on any of the various sides of the argument. Which I can understand. At the very least, no matter what, I hope Bioware records full versions of the dialogue for all the gender combinations, so the modders can decide to add back in any of the ones that BW decides not to make canon.

i've got no issue with party members across a spectrum of sexuality either. to me, an ideal party consists of defined straight characters, gay characters, and all number of non-binaries in between... but the romance options themselves should be available across all genders. so we're in agreement here, i think.

the problem with modding, and since you're much more withdrawn from this argument it's likely far less an issue for you than it is for me, is that it's decisively not canon. issues of changing sexualities aside, i can watch youtube videos of mshep and kaidan making out all i want, or even play a game where i've modded it myself (but i'm a console girl so not really), but it's still not an intended romance, and that fact is always going to live in the back of my brain. and before anyone draws the wrong conclusion about that, what i'm getting at is that i am modding a game where i can deliberately play against canon, so the meta analysis all of us here are obviously inclined to do is, in my mind, going to be cheapened for me.

edit: and wow that is a lot of clunky specification that this is my opinion and no one else's good job self

That said, I think the ME players usually are suggesting that flirt icons are too much like hand-holding... basically they'd rather have Ashley ninjamance their femsheps than resort to the icon system... I personally prefer the clearly worded paraphrase option myself. Garrus's is the best example of this: you pick something obvious, and then have a quick chance to change your mind. Also, the earlier you decide to back out, the easier he takes it. Basically, Garrus is the best. >_>

yeah, after mulling this over and thinking about all the butthurt that would result from flirt alert notations, while i prefer them i'm retroactively changing my solution to incredibly obvious clearly-worded heavy-rain-esque-PRESS-X-TO-SEX paraphrase flirts. the delivery itself doesn't have to be so obvious at all, but the trigger should be. then everyone can be happy!

well, everyone who's not a dingledongle about bawwww i don't wanna romance a bi, but who cares about them

Modifié par ademska, 11 juillet 2011 - 09:40 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Honestly out of everything, I prefer non-paraphrase - tell me exactly what I am saying. But that ship has not just sailed, it's departed under the power of several high-octane turbo engines.

All this said, I still think that occasionally having a romance available to a single gender may be OK, as long as the majority are available to everyone, but since it doesn't actually matter to me beyond as a narrative convention I'm not going to fight about it. Fanfic has shown me that narrative conventions are for squares, anyway.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 11 juillet 2011 - 09:46 .

[DAYtheELF]

Mekarah wrote...

ipgd wrote...

I think I would have a butt devastated rage aneurysm if you could actually change characters' sexualities with a toggle. It bothers me enough that they deliberately left their sexualities in DA2 open for interpretation, and I really don't think there is any way to get around the Unfortunate Implications of any sort of toggle that directly changes the characterization of a character, whether it's for a "demographically representational" statistical spread of orientations or to allow for people who are uncomfortable with too many bisexuals to avoid it.

I'm just really not so concerned with statistics that a button that does anything to alter a character's sexuality in any way approaches anything even resembling acceptable to my mind. I would really rather they just not make them all bisexual than do anything like that.

I think (and correct me if I'm wrong, reading at work so sometimes I miss things while...er...working), that the toggle was more to determine the player character's sexuality? Say, for example, you hit on Iona, then it would establish that your character is into chicks, and therefore the dude character wouldn't hit on you first? The idea being that it would save people scared of Anders turning them gay the horror and shock of having a dude hit on them.

Not that I necessarily would want to concede to closed minded individuals, or think that the game should, tbh, but I think that was more the idea than say, making Anders straight.

I'm late to the party and might be ressurecting an ended topic, sorry!

Anyways, the problem with this is that characters can evolve.  My first Warden, a female, slept with Iona and flirted with girls for the majority of the game (So sad she couldn't romance Morrigan.  She tried SO HARD!).  However, she was known to every now and then be interested in a guy, especially towards the end of the game where she ditched Leliana and married Alistair.

I would have been very sad if flirting with only Iona at the beginning of the game would have 'forced' my character to be completely gay.

*edit* PS - I actually liked that I couldn't romance Morrigan.  I find it more realistic that you cant romance everyone.  Some people are straight, some are gay, some are bi, some dont care, etc.  I do, however, wish I could have flirted with her some and then have her reject me.  Ah well.  However, I would much much much rather have all LIs be romancable than to have a toggle-switch or whatnot.

Modifié par DAYtheELF, 11 juillet 2011 - 10:25 .

[SurelyForth]

FieryDove wrote...

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

He still says that he tried to hold back on the friendship path in act two. So he is still not entirely comfortable with exposing a male Hawke to the dangers of being in a relationship with him. But it's vanishingly little compared to what he tells female Hawke, so there's that.

Yes, he does say try to hold back to both Hawke's.

Someone in a thread a long time ago said it was because Anders cares more about a female hawke than a male. I disagree but whatever people will think what they like.

I think I said this, but it wasn't that he cared more about female Hawke, but that his approach to each was different. In keeping with the dialogue in Act 1 (and my own frustrations with it as somone who only plays Lady Hawke) I posited that he was more emotionally drawn to F!Hawke (which is why he's so worried about the long term implications that early in the relationship and is perhaps projecting a bit) while he's more physically attracted to M!Hawke, which is why it's all scruffy flirty suff in Act 1. By Act 2 it's all the same level of love/lust, so it's not placing one above the other but trying to account for a weird amount of difference between the two conversations. I'm not happy with the more sexist interpretations but having different types of attractions to different types of people is something I understand completely.

Personally, I am all for all LIs being available for all types of PCs as long as they're equal. Had DAO had such a mechanic, then I could have happily never had  to play a dude in order to hook up with Morrigan (although it was nice to take the whole OGB bullet for once).

[beckaliz]

I personally kind of like the instances where the prompt is the same but depending on Hawke's personality s/he'll say something different. Even a red option. I wish I could think of an example, but it was funny to notice when I started my Logan Hawke PT.

And omg, coming from enjoying the roleplay aspect of other characters, to playing Logan for sh!ts and giggles, is just crazy. I'm metagaming the crap out of him. It's funny running around with bloodmage!Hawke, Merrill, and Anders (with the fourth party member being different depending on the mission and my mood), and you can put all three of them into sustained modes that make them impossible to heal normally.

And Anders doesn't say a darn thing even when Logan is going vampire on his arse and sucking his life out. Has anyone ever made a blood mage Viscount? It's gonna be hilarious. Logan is on a friendship path with Fenris and he's like a magister-in-the-making. XD

[ademska]

SurelyForth wrote...

I think I said this, but it wasn't that he cared more about female Hawke, but that his approach to each was different. In keeping with the dialogue in Act 1 (and my own frustrations with it as somone who only plays Lady Hawke) I posited that he was more emotionally drawn to F!Hawke (which is why he's so worried about the long term implications that early in the relationship and is perhaps projecting a bit) while he's more physically attracted to M!Hawke, which is why it's all scruffy flirty suff in Act 1. By Act 2 it's all the same level of love/lust, so it's not placing one above the other but trying to account for a weird amount of difference between the two conversations. I'm not happy with the more sexist interpretations but having different types of attractions to different types of people is something I understand completely.

ah, well if you were who @FieryDove was talking about, and that's your actual explanation, then with the context i retract my moron and jackass assessment.

i'm not sure i 100% agree with this, though it's a good way of reconciling some of the differences that doesn't reflect badly on the writers or anders himself. i think i'd be more inclined to hop on this train if it came with the caveat that that emotional vs physical dichotomy was resolved much, much sooner than act 2, because anders' emotional and physical attachment to hawke regardless of gender, appearance, action or belief is such a huge part of his character.

Personally, I am all for all LIs being available for all types of PCs as long as they're equal. Had DAO had such a mechanic, then I could have happily never had  to play a dude in order to hook up with Morrigan (although it was nice to take the whole OGB bullet for once).

it's interesting (and nice) to see a reason for wanting across-the-board love interests that isn't centered on wanting more s/s relationships. i mean, that's my reason, but your support from a completely different standpoint only strengthens the argument.

Modifié par ademska, 11 juillet 2011 - 11:15 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

I guess I am the only one who is in favor of heavy restrictions of LIs, based on gender, origin, beliefs, race, actions, mannerisms, class / spec....etc. I think it gives them more character and alleviate the feeling that the PC can get whoever he / she wants.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 12 juillet 2011 - 02:25 .

[highcastle]

Well this thread's sat idle for too long. Time for some pretty pictures to move it along, maybe?


A gift by the lovely and talented pyromaniac (haven't spammed this one in a while) for A Distant Ray of Light which now has a real, proper sequel, A Sea Without a Shore.

And now that my shameful shameless self-promotion is over, I'll add my completely unsolicited 2 cents about Anders and attraction. I know he handles m!Hawke and f!Hawke differently. M!Hawke gets the history with Karl while f!Hawke gets the we-can't-be-together-I'll-hurt-you spiel way earlier in the game. It's been suggested that Anders is more attracted--either emotionally or physically or whatever--to f!Hawke. I have to say, though, this doesn't sit right with me.

I think Anders is attracted to Hawkes of both genders from the outset. He tells m!Hawke about Karl as a way to getting his more fluid view of sexuality across. But the story itself is a cautonary tale--Anders got involved with Karl and look what happened. One tranquil mage. He doesn't need to throw out a bunch of warnings because Karl himself is warning enough.

With f!Hawke, he keeps that part of himself a secret at first, likely to avoid scaring her away or just wanting to skip a potentially awkward conversation. But without Karl's example, he needs some way to keep her at bay. So he gives her the I-would-only-hurt-you talk.

But that's just like my opinion dude.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I guess I am the only one who is in favor of heavy restrictions of LIs, based on gender, origin, beliefs, race, actions, mannerisms, class / spec....etc. I think it gives them more character and alleviate the feeling that the PC can get whoever he / she wants.

The fact that you can only become queen if you are a HNF is one of my favorite things in DA:O, along with the fact that Alistair will straight cold dump you if you aren't a HNF and don't harden him, and he'll dump you no matter what if you spare Loghain It's the most interesting and heart-wrenching choice I've had to make in a Bioware game, honestly, even if it means very little for the world. I didn't know anything aobut it my first playthrough, of course. Jaw. Dropped.

I think that different results may be even better than inherent restrictions, though I do like the idea of actions and beliefs determining whether or not someone will romance you. There should be more stuff like Anders dumping you if you actually deal with the demon.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 12 juillet 2011 - 02:42 .

[mellifera]

What highcastle said. I just happen to prefer the way one plays out over the other (you'll never guess which lolololo).