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[Heidenreich]

beckaliz wrote...

HAHAHAHAHA so Fenris was there just to argue with Anders?

TEH GAEM RULLY IZ ALL ABOUT TEH ANDERZ THENS! lololol!

I watched a little clip that came out before the game was released where the devs were talking about the direction they wanted to go with DA2, and how they wanted to focus the changes Hawke can make on his/her relationship with the other companions. Also that they wanted each character to serve a distinct and more or less important role in the game beyond just being a companion. I was racking my brain trying to think what the heck Fenris does. He just ****es about mages and looks pretty (I'm not an otaku but I share some limited number of their tastes) and doesn't do anything. Merrill and her mirror are just a little weak, since we don't know wtf the deal is with the Eluvian yet (and we'd fricken better in the next game), and Sebastian... he's weak too, mainly because he was optional DLC, but at least he has a whole city-state to command.

So the whole point of Fenris is just because of Anders... That's hilarious.

I love Fenris to death, he's my prefered LI and I can dig his vibe and  his reasoning (*snaps fingers, bongo drums*) etc etc... but even I knew the only thing Fenris was there for was to be a foil for Anders  I'm amazed at the sheer amount of people who can't figure that out. Fenris is an Ex-Slave from Tevinter. Tevinter, where magic is free to roam as it pleases and EVERYONE important is a blood mage. It's to show Anders that not all mages should be free, and gives Hawke the opertunity to be Anti-mage with a little back up. The majority of the other companions don't have any sort of vested intrest/care on the topic. Aveline cares on that, "I'm a cop and I have to care :police:" level. Merrill cares in that "I'm a mage and I should care, but my blood magic and my mirror is more important. :unsure:" kind of way. Varric and Bela? Don't give a ****.

The only other character who could have been any kind of real foil for Anders, would have been Sebastian.. and they made him DLC, so he's out, and Fenris is in.


That being said, I still like him



EDIT: OSHI.. I got a top! Have some Yami!

Modifié par Heidenreich, 12 juillet 2011 - 07:25 .

[upsettingshorts]

Indeed, and my response to that being Fenris' purpose was (more or less) that he sucked at it.

Anders is single-minded, passionate, determined, and actually does things (big things) to further his goal.

What Anders is doing should anger and/or terrify Fenris, yet he does nothing but offer the occasional sarcastic - if logical - banter.

He doesn't say, turn in Apostates to Meredith, physically confront Anders, etc. Considering in Mass Effect 2 Miranda and Jack almost come to blows over something far more trivial, and Tali points a gun at Legion over similar stakes, the fact DA2 is missing something like that for Fenris makes him seem ineffectual and self-absorbed.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I thought it was obvious that Fenris's entire purpose was to add a counterpoint to Anders' story. I still love our broody little elf, and part of why I love him is his weird submissive relationship with Hawke. Unf. I guess I can thank Dan Savage for teaching me that D/s relationships are not unhealthy if both participants in the relationship are consenting?

I... may have overshared a little, there.

Still, it's very interesting how strongly a lot of people seem to object to a woman being the dominant one in a relationship.

Edit: and I actually like Fenris being self-absorbed and thus not trying to get anything specific done. In that way, he's like DA:A Anders: as long as he's got his, he's not going to actually you know... work on stuff. He's just going to try to enjoy his own bloody life, such as it is. I think that having someone actively fighting against Anders in that way would have been less interesting.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 12 juillet 2011 - 07:34 .

[upsettingshorts]

I like Fenris' character just fine, I just think he's in the wrong game.

[Heidenreich]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Indeed, and my response to that being Fenris' purpose was (more or less) that he sucked at it.

Anders is single-minded, passionate, determined, and actually does things (big things) to further his goal.

What Anders is doing should anger and/or terrify Fenris, yet he does nothing but offer the occasional sarcastic - if logical - banter.

He doesn't say, turn in Apostates to Meredith, physically confront Anders, etc. Considering in Mass Effect 2 Miranda and Jack almost come to blows over something far more trivial, and Tali points a gun at Legion over similar stakes, the fact DA2 is missing something like that for Fenris makes him seem ineffectual and self-absorbed.

SEE, this is why you should be on the development team. I demand a 150BWpt dlc where Fenris and Anders are about to KILL EACH OTHER because of Templars/Mages, with maybe a sprinkling of near-murder over a double-romanced Hawke. It would be EPIC.


WHY IS THERE NONE OF THIS. I keep writing it, hoping it'll happen. ;p



Also? CGG and I see eye to eye on the whole sexy/creepy submissive Fenris. I always get the vibe that Hawke, male or female, wouldn't be a very submissive lover. Unless she (or he) is romancing Isabela. Isabela doesn't do sub

[KnightofPhoenix]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
Still, it's very interesting how strongly a lot of people seem to object to a woman being the dominant one in a relationship.

I find that kind of dynamic in a relationship in general to be unattractive. As in I would be very unattracted to a submissive female, or a dominating one. 

And it's outside of bed if Fenris goes to the point where he has Hawke's family crest on him. I'd find that creepy personally (though somewhat understandable), if what I was looking for was a genuine romance.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 12 juillet 2011 - 07:42 .

[Ryzaki]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I thought it was obvious that Fenris's entire purpose was to add a counterpoint to Anders' story. I still love our broody little elf, and part of why I love him is his weird submissive relationship with Hawke. Unf. I guess I can thank Dan Savage for teaching me that D/s relationships are not unhealthy if both participants in the relationship are consenting?

I... may have overshared a little, there.

Still, it's very interesting how strongly a lot of people seem to object to a woman being the dominant one in a relationship.

Edit: and I actually like Fenris being self-absorbed and thus not trying to get anything specific done. In that way, he's like DA:A Anders: as long as he's got his, he's not going to actually you know... work on stuff. He's just going to try to enjoy his own bloody life, such as it is. I think that having someone actively fighting against Anders in that way would have been less interesting.

aye I enjoy that part about Fenris too. He's just trying to to get by and doesn't feel the need for some grand crusade. 

[beckaliz]

Heidenreich wrote...

I love Fenris to death, he's my prefered LI and I can dig his vibe and  his reasoning (*snaps fingers, bongo drums*) etc etc... but even I knew the only thing Fenris was there for was to be a foil for Anders.  I'm amazed at the sheer amount of people who can't figure that out. Fenris is an Ex-Slave from Tevinter. Tevinter, where magic is free to roam as it pleases and EVERYONE important is a blood mage. It's to show Anders that not all mages should be free, and gives Hawke the opertunity to be Anti-mage with a little back up. The majority of the other companions don't have any sort of vested intrest/care on the topic. Aveline cares on that, "I'm a cop and I have to care " level. Merrill cares in that "I'm a mage and I should care, but my blood magic and my mirror is more important. " kind of way. Varric and Bela? Don't give a ****.

The only other character who could have been any kind of real foil for Anders, would have been Sebastian.. and they made him DLC, so he's out, and Fenris is in.

That being said, I still like him

I like him too. :3

He's mister cranky-butt sexypants. There's a place for that in my tastes. But his character development and involvement just aren't as compelling as that of Anders. I thought about him for a while, and was interested in him for a while, but I ran out of things to think about with him.

That, plus it's impossible to actually talk about him over on his thread. I think I can tell when someone is just not going to provide me with any productive/informative discourse, so it's hard to even get started. There is too frequently a knee-jerk "must defend him!!" attitude. (I acknowledge that not all the regulars are like that.) Without real discussion, I'm limited to my own perception of him, which I'm already familiar with.

Since Anders actually matters, well, there are so many things you can talk about with him. Plus, can you imagine the some of the adamant Fenris fans enjoying making fun of him?


@upsettingshorts: Yes! "self-absorbed", that was exactly an argument I tried to make over there. But I guess since he's willing to help Hawke out he's not? Even if it's... only Hawke. Who he owes a debt of gratitude. I wasn't even saying it in a bad way.

Modifié par beckaliz, 12 juillet 2011 - 07:46 .

[highcastle]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Indeed, and my response to that being Fenris' purpose was (more or less) that he sucked at it.

Anders is single-minded, passionate, determined, and actually does things (big things) to further his goal.

What Anders is doing should anger and/or terrify Fenris, yet he does nothing but offer the occasional sarcastic - if logical - banter.

He doesn't say, turn in Apostates to Meredith, physically confront Anders, etc. Considering in Mass Effect 2 Miranda and Jack almost come to blows over something far more trivial, and Tali points a gun at Legion over similar stakes, the fact DA2 is missing something like that for Fenris makes him seem ineffectual and self-absorbed.

I agree with you 100% on Fenris' purpose and the fact that he doesn't do anything to really make it meaningful. However, I think that's in keeping with someone who used to be a slave and thus might have some issues working outside the authority of someone he may subconsciously see as a replacement master. It's a bit squicky, but there it is.

Actually, if BioWare had wanted a really good foil for Anders, I think Wesley should have lived past the prologue. Having a companion who was actually part of the templars would have humanized them a bit more and placed more strain on the group. He would have been actively hunting apostates, and there would have been the opportunity for real fallout between him and Anders (and Merrill too).

[mellifera]

Wait, who is objecting to a woman being dominant in a relationship?

[DAYtheELF]

PS - Recently got my friend to play DA:O. She already knows I Anders 4 eva, but I have been careful not to talk about him too much. Anyways, after she played Awakenings I asked her what she thought about Anders and she replied that she totally got the gay vibe from him (as did I). I find this funny because so many people say that because he talks about girls alot in DAA that means he MUST be straight and therefore him being with M!Hawke is a retcon. I'm not saying by any means that Anders "was gay" in DAA, but just that myself and others got a vibe that there was more to his over-the-top comments than what met the eye and therefore I find it amusing when people make the "Anders was straight in Awakenings" argument.

Side note - She and I were talking with my husband a while back and I was trying to convince her to start playing DAO. I went on to mention how later she would then meet Anders and how awesome I think he is. My husband growled that Anders is a terrorist. I was like "NO HE'S NOT" and he retorted "But he blows up the church"... In front of my friend who hadnt played the games yet. Stupid husband for spoiling the end surprise!

[upsettingshorts]

DAYtheELF, are you new? Did you seriously say Anders wasn't a terrorist while I'm active in the thread?

Oh man...

[KnightofPhoenix]

*grabs popcorn*

[DAYtheELF]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

DAYtheELF, are you new? Did you seriously say Anders wasn't a terrorist while I'm active in the thread?

Oh man...

No I'm not new and I know all of the debate (I read about 500 pages before becoming an active lurker a while back), so I see no need to go into it again  ^.^  Can we agree to disagree?

*edit* lol @ KnightofPhoenix

Modifié par DAYtheELF, 12 juillet 2011 - 07:55 .

[beckaliz]

@KoP Can I share?

[ipgd]

DAYtheELF wrote...

Can we agree to disagree?

No.

It's not like it's really a subjective thing.

[Evilnor]

highcastle wrote...
Actually, if BioWare had wanted a really good foil for Anders, I think Wesley should have lived past the prologue. Having a companion who was actually part of the templars would have humanized them a bit more and placed more strain on the group. He would have been actively hunting apostates, and there would have been the opportunity for real fallout between him and Anders (and Merrill too).

Or recruit Cullen, Keran, or any other templar who happened to be hanging out around the Gallows . . .

Also, on dominant females: Kipling has something to say about that.

[upsettingshorts]

ipgd wrote...

DAYtheELF wrote...

Can we agree to disagree?

No.

It's not like it's really a subjective thing.

That. 

The only "not a terrorist" argument I've seen that was even remotely compelling was the idea that the Chantry was not a soft target.  And I don't buy it.

[DAYtheELF]

ipgd wrote...

DAYtheELF wrote...

Can we agree to disagree?

No.

It's not like it's really a subjective thing.

Ah well.  I am not going to argue it.  I think all of you have handled the debate well in the past and everyone has made lovely and solid arguments for their sides.  <3  I wasn't trying to bring up that topic, but rather relating a story of how my husband spoiled the ending for my friend.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Okay, resume the terrorist topic.  I kinda feel nostalgic.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 12 juillet 2011 - 08:01 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

beckaliz wrote...

@KoP Can I share?

Mine is with extra butter, hope you don't mind.


And I agree that Anders being a terrorist is an objective thing (and many fit the definition, both the broad one and the specific non-governmental ideological form). Whether he is justified or not, is a different thing.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 12 juillet 2011 - 08:01 .

[Soapbubbles]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

*grabs popcorn*

Pass it over here please?  My favorite thing to do is watch debates.

[highcastle]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Okay, resume the terrorist topic.  I kinda feel nostalgic.

This thread runs more or less on a loop. The same topics come up from time to time, with a bit more added to the discussion each time.

On the topic of terrorists and Anders as such, my criminology profs (I knew I was going after this degree just to apply it to video games) always defined terrorism as the use of violence/threat of violence to coerce political change. That's exactly what Anders did. He may or may not be justified depending on your interpretation of the events, but he definitely used tactics that fall under the "terrorist" label. I'm against slapping on the moniker of "freedom fighter" just because you happen to agree with someone. It still doesn't change what he did, after all.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
Still, it's very interesting how strongly a lot of people seem to object to a woman being the dominant one in a relationship.

I find that kind of dynamic in a relationship in general to be unattractive. As in I would be very unattracted to a submissive female, or a dominating one. 

And it's outside of bed if Fenris goes to the point where he has Hawke's family crest on him. I'd find that creepy personally, if what I was looking for was a genuine romance.

Well in general I like equal relationships, but since media mostly offers me ones with submissive ladies, a few doms from time to time help even the score. (Honestly my favorite relationship would be one of first in command and second in command... but where who is first and who is second changes due to the particular situation, in silent acknowledgment of complimentary strengths. Ahem. *coughs*)

The thing is, the whole dominant and submissive idea is much subtler than people imagine. The role of the rescuer or the protector is seen as dominant, and that's the aspect of "dominance" that appeals to me, rather than the control that is most commonly the first place the mind goes.

It's also about giving trust and making sure you never betray that trust. I see Fenris's relationship with Hawke as Fenris saying "Hawke, I am trusting you. You could probably command me to do anything, and I would obey." and Hawke, in return, ideally understands that the burden is on her not to betray that trust, to actually do what is best for Fenris rather than just use him, and possibly to help him eventually learn to be free, if that's what he wishes. It's not my ideal relationship, but I can get some enjoyment out of it. 

Reading a lot of sex positive literature (and yes, some gay sex advice agony aunts. I'm not proud), I've gotten to the point where I can enjoy a much wider range of sexual and power dynamics in literature. So yes, unf, as they say. unf.

And oh, from sexuality to the terrorist discussion. Sigh. I was hoping we'd get somewhere good.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 12 juillet 2011 - 08:14 .

[upsettingshorts]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Sigh. I was hoping we'd get somewhere good.

I'm as tired of it as anyone else.  Just it did seem like mentioning it when I'm standing right there was baiting me, heh.

It's not as if I have anything new to say.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 12 juillet 2011 - 08:15 .