57020 réponses à ce sujet

[Arquen]

I don't mind 'devil's advocate' at all - I rather like the term. We used to throw it around in my philosophy classes because our professor would make us argue BOTH sides of an argument.

You would spend like a bajillion hours doing some argumentative/logical essay and then turn it in. Then he we would be like alright.. next assignment is to take that argument and argue AGAINST it. I was all *facepalm* but it taught a great lesson about argumentation and discussion. That being that internalizing arguments, personalizing points, and closing your eyes to the other side of things is a mistake.

off topic rant over---

So basically what we are saying is that Hawke is "stuck" waiting to react to something. Not technically "doing" something, but knowing that a catastrophic event is inevitable and now he/she must react, but before the event Hawke is well.. helpless to do anything worth substance. Still, my theory stands that Hawke is no more than a windswept pawn in all this. Sure she/he can REACT now, but there was apparently no way to prevent it, to act sooner, to even have a plan in motion for "doing" something. By doing something I figured that meant Hawke had some grand scheme or plan of action to implement to make things better or easier or just.. go down less badly. If doing something is just reacting, well even a Hawke who was as passive as a doormat would now be forced to react to the situation.

Things spiraling out of control and you are just a spectator waiting for a chance to react to... something (which your not exactly sure of until end game.) I just think it is a failure on Hawke's part to control the situation. Mostly because you aren't allowed to. Trying to kick Meredith out of power ends badly, Trying to disuade Anders ends badly, doing nothing and not picking sides still ends badly, choosing sides and still ends badly. I'm reminded of an old hard determinism theory about choice... "choo choo my fate is laid out for me, and so when the time comes when I'm presented a choice I simply react or remain passive."

These are so not personal btw, just theories.

DOH! edit for T.O.P.


by pikkatze on DA

Modifié par Arquen, 13 juillet 2011 - 02:51 .

[SurelyForth]

@esper One of my ideas for Ferelden (which is completely pie in the sky, of course) is that with warning, the Circle there won't rebel and they won't lose any more mages. There will be a decent window where Hawke will be able to travel pretty freely. If she has Varric and Aveline in Kirkwall to misdirect all over the place, she might be able to get into and out of Ferelden without being noticed...and perhaps even make Ferelden their mage stronghold.

Another reason I like Ferelden as part of the epilogue is because of Orzammar...if they can work through Alistair/The Warden to get to Bhelen and perhaps finagle an alliance that will replace the stranglehold that the Chantry has on the lyrium market, that would be a blow against the templars.

But this is where my sad, sad grasp on politics and whatnot is horribly exposed. I see holes all over the place and, without having any idea what these uprisings look like, what state the Chantry is actually in, or even what the world outside of Kirkwall actually knows about what happened there, it's very hard to say with any certainty.

[Toastyblue2]

SurelyForth wrote...
One of my headcanon priorities is getting to Ferelden ASAP to meet with King Alistair/The Warden to explain what happened before the rumors can take hold. Most people head to Rivain or Tevinter, but I like the idea of Ferelden having a role to play, and I feel like the fact that Alistair and Anora seem to be more practical when it comes to mages could come in handy and having Alistair show up in Act 3 all "sympathetic to mages!" made my Hawke think he might be willing to help...maybe.

Actually, this is pretty much what happens in my fic, Magus Rex, with some additional political implications unique to my fic.

Also, the mages as a whole might be forced to make peace, or at least an alliance, with the Imperium. They might be the Big Bad, Mysterious Imperium, but at least they aren't Orlais, home of the Chantry. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, that sort of thing. Also, allying with Ferelden would definitely irritate Orlais.

Not to mention that if the mages jump into bed with the Imperium, certainly the theory that Andraste was a mage will come up somewhere.

Does this make sense? I'm exhausted today, and wiped out from a workout in the heat.

[beckaliz]

Arquen wrote...

**SNIP**

I can see it if your going to be Anders love interest and just run with mages and go "F you all mAN.. we FReeEE bishes!" still though, what action is Hawke going to take to "do something?" besides just running away with Anders and sharing his ideals. Hawke could have always done that even without the chantry going booom.

2 cents.... and because I'm being a devil's advocate >.<

There's headcanon, and how revolutionary someone wants their Hawke to be, but the simple fact is that the most Hawke ever does in the game to support mages before the final blowup (no pun intended) is little stuff to work for the nobles who want to get rid of Meredith. (Which is an oversimplification, but there's that woman who approaches Hawke in Hightown saying "hey thx 4 ur support can u do these 2 things plz", and that's what I'm referring to.) Hawke is simply not proactive like Anders is. Anything outside of that is heading towards AU territory. Which is fine, but is beyond the scope of being able to discuss and share different interpretations of what we actually see in the game. (ETA: I don't see Hawke as being helpless, but more inactive, because it's not as if Hawke is doing all kinds of things while in Kirkwall to initiate change. It's all reactionary.

A Hawke who wants to continue fighting for mages, whether romancing Anders or not, I think is likely to still team up with him. (At least until the "we left the Champion's side for one reason or another" thing came into play, a nonromanced Hawke could join in.) They could do better in concert. Anders, after all, did still need Hawke's help, however unknowing Hawke was, to accomplish his big thing.

As you say, a mage-supporting Hawke is now on the run, and is going to have a harder time doing anything. I suppose she could start other mage underground resistances, but unless those mages were already rebelling, there'd be no guarantee that they wouldn't turn her in to try and avoid a similar massacre to what happens in Kirkwall or simply make their own lot in life worse.
I'm starting to agree with KoP that Hawke is mostly useless. x__x I'm not quite there yet though.  But a mage-supporting Anders-mancing Hawke is more likely to ride his coattails because obviously he's got more gumption to do big things.

Hoooowever... Hawke is still alive and still has some influence, so s/he could do stuff.... Just I don't think s/he'd be doing BIG things. Erm. Sometimes I think I'm useless in debates because I can see and understand both sides in these things. XD;;; At least as far as fiction goes. Real life is another matter but is off topic.

(EDIT: My computer decided to go "back" when I was first writing this so I had to write it all over again and may have left pieces out of my original argument.

Modifié par beckaliz, 13 juillet 2011 - 03:13 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...
Exactly. Precisely this was how my Hawke felt. Then again, she is passive and a bit of a doormat and too scared of reprecussions made against her sister in the Circle to really make a move against Meredith.  Also, limitations offered by the narrative - the war is going to happen and there's nothing a player can do to change it. You can even tell Anders to ****** off after Dissent and he still comes around to show off his firework.

Nothing changing does not exclude the possibility of a more pro-active protagonist, who does things beyond superficially help Faction A or B. That protagonist could still fail, but at least I could feel that he actually and genuinely tried. One way to do that is the remove the Qunari in Act 2 and focus on the mage resistance. Either have Hawke lead it, or collaborate with Meredith to crack on it, while potentially trying to steal her power base from under her nose (the choice would change Act 3 quite a bit, and yes it's possible).

It's great that many like to play passive doormats. Some however do not and yet we are forced to play that way. And no, headcanon does not change what's in the game. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 13 juillet 2011 - 03:21 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...
I know how you feel, KoP. You have said so many times, and it's a valid position to have. I have never claimed otherwise, have I? Now you're just sort of responding to a hundred similar discussions you've had in the past and nothing I have said in particular.

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...
Also, limitations offered by the narrative - the war is going to happen and there's nothing a player can do to change it.

That's what I was responding to.
I read that as saying that the narrative being that way and the war happening anyways, is a justification for what we had. Something I contest.

If I misread, I apologize.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Then I apologize.

Cheers.

[Alyzabeth]

 A little off topic. Here's a REALLY nice movie trailer (of a 19 minute short) starring Adam Howden, Ander's VA

www.youtube.com/watch

[ademska]

**** me, not this noise again

let's get back to talking about our hawkes, that is at least less tedious than this qunari hawke weak narrative kop debate-slash-tirade again thank you

i need a break from what i'm working on, so let's hop on the bandwagon:

even though i don't have a 'canon' hawke or anything, my second playthrough was the one where i roleplayed everything, right down to taking the appropriate exits in kirkwall to get to places and never warping. i always use defaults because they have charming faces, especially garrett and his ickle broken nose and pointy beard, and whenever i go into the cc i get butt pains like 'emily noooooo don't change our faces you love us too much!'

anyway, garrett was a dw rogue, very apostate life that gave him extremely extreme pro-freedom views on mages and a manic family-first sensibility, probably has kind of a dad complex, very contentious relationship with carver, who saw him as trying to emulate his father but never fully stepping up to the role. ostagar made him disenfranchised with ferelden and politics in general, but he's charismatic and has a natural knack for it. kind enough, but practical, but a complete lack of tact unless he really tries, so sarcasm personality i guess with diplo tendencies. can't be serious about anything except the most dire of circumstances and even then it's a crapshoot. slept with all the girls and boys before kirkwall. bestest bros with isabela and varric, wins fenris over enough that he only does that half-betrayal, ditto aveline, p decent frands with merrill. drinks a lot.

so, anders. they meet, and garrett doesn't really know what to think of him. he's unkempt and lives in a sewer, runs a free clinic for refugees like garrett and his family, is an abomination but is also kinda hot, but he's so intense and garrett's very flaky. blah blah anders slowly begins to trust him, esp the way he deals with mages, but garrett's still flaky and anders is still creepy anders. they get really close, and anders transcends into the familial (he's pretty malcolm-like anyway) and garrett begins a slow dive into the deep end. they get together, and when leandra dies and the only other family he has left is locked in the gallows (which also tore him up), he clings to anders like a lifeline and then they're all swept up in their own **** for the next three years.

oh and since i put zilch in his fortitude because he's a delicate butterfly and even on easy couldn't defeat the arishok, when the arishok asked to duel in single combat, his reaction was AHAHAHAHA NO have you seen yourself lately **** that

SO - he's so ensconced in anders stuff and so blehh at politics - and anders pulls back enough from mage stuff after ella lives - that neither make any major moves beyond the micro level of helping individuals until act 3. as anders downward spirals, so does he, becoming more intense about revolutionary ideals if not actions. by the time the chantry blows, he's shocked, but he recognizes that he made this decision years ago, and post-gamedives headfirst into undermining the chantry and destroying it both with political machinations and literal explosives. their relationship becomes even more codependent because they are crazy people.

it's like the unhealthiest relationship ever i love it so much

edit: oh my god did i really just type that, get back to work ugh

Modifié par ademska, 13 juillet 2011 - 07:52 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I wonder how much the release of Dance of Dragons has contributed to the slowdown on this thread (and in these boards in general). I have more to write on all these subject but Winter is coming, you guys. Also, I've made the ridiculous choice to re-read all the books first, which I frankly should have started a week or two ago, but I was distracted by real life.

Lir stays with Anders for a reason that is insane but not codependent... and I'm not sure if the insanity of the idea is a bad thing. She really truly believes that they can change the world: reform Andrasteism, save Ferelden, free the mages, bring equality to the Elves, all that junk. Her goals are broader than his, but not incompatible. She believes more is possible than may be strictly possible, and is more willing to compromise. She's also willing to kill Anders if he does ever lose control, she just truly does not believe that has happened yet.

Esk stays with him for all the reasons I would stay with him: because he's interesting, because he needs her, because he may represent a new form of life, and because his cause is not entirely unjust. She's a mage, so she sees him as someone who gave everything up to fight for her rights, despite the fact that he didn't even know her yet. She could easily live without him, wandering off into the sunset with Izzy or Varric, but she chooses to stay with him because he deserves what company and comfort she can provide in exchange for all he has given up to help her people. She believes it may be possible to fix him, but if not, she'll stay with him until he burns out, and then she'll kiss him goodbye and find some other old friends to join up with.

I don't think either of these are especially co-dependent, though Lir's relationship is admittedly based on delusions of grandeur on both their parts... she just doesn't ever get the accompanying lows that Anders experiences.

And now, back to Westeros. I had forgotten how closely the Night's Watch resembles the Wardens. Oh Jon Snow, you are SO Alistair. Or rather, if Jon Snow was Xander he would be Alistair.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 13 juillet 2011 - 09:31 .

[beckaliz]

Maybe you're right. Poor Anders, not gettin' as much love what with G.R.R.M. takin' up all the glory. ;p

I read the first two ASOIAF books and they were depressing enough, then my ex read the next one and told me that some crazy horrible **** goes down (esp. with what's-her-face who was previously-engaged-to-the-little-blonde-prince) and I was like " D: ... oh noes" and ran as fast as I could in the other direction.

Anders doesn't like horrible things happening to little girls either.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

At this point, I read the books for one character. I'm rereading them because she doesn't get much action in the new one, and only in the latter half. Though I'm so tempted because she ended on such a cliffhanger... arg. Still: that character is the absolute best female character I have ever read in a traditional high fantasy world, full stop.

She would make a great Warden. Also, she would like totally side with the mages.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 13 juillet 2011 - 10:45 .

[lywinis]

Some news on Jakface's calendar - 56 hours left, and she's $600 away from $10,000 raised. If she hits the 10k mark, she will donate $1000 raised to Child's Play charities! Get your calendars if you haven't yet, and be entered in the raffle for some awesome prizes INCLUDING (snagged directly from Jak's Tumblr):

Milestone Prizes

Okay guys, last night I came up with the Milestone ideas for the last 63 hours of calendar preorder. Here we go.
$5000 - Alistair marker picture collaborated between caiterhe and I
$6000 - 3 drawings (Tuxedo Alistair, Sebastian/Anders Braveheart, Once Upon a Fade sketch)
$7000 - Commission extravaganza! 3 commissions available.
1 by Milli, a 1 character sketch of the Dragon Age hottie of your choice
1 by Kamidoodles, 1 character lineart with shadows added
1 by me, 1 character of your choice with flat color
$8000 - A full set of Dragon Age dudes headshots on Kraft paper with art by me, in this style: http://jakface.tumbl...d-with-my-super of Fenris, Alistair, Anders, Sebastian and Zevran.
$9000 - A print of my piece the Hero Of Ferelden from Zazzle.com! The 17 X 34 one, mailed anywhere in the world!
$10,000 Okay this is special, guys! For one, I will do a fully CG’d
special “CENTERFOLD” piece of the Dragon Age character (any of them) of
their choosing. Can be another character, can be one already done.
Printed out and mailed along with it with the full resolution emailed to
them.
ALSO - if I manage to raise $10,000, I WILL DONATE $1000 TO CHILD’S PLAY CHARITY.
So hopefully that is more incentive for you guys to keep spreading
the word. I hope you’re not sick of me yet! 63 hours to go![/quote]


http://igg.me/p/33657?i=shlk

[ipgd]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

I'm probably alone in this, but I couldn't stand those books - at least the first book.

heresy

[mellifera]

I ragequit the books about 150 pages from the end of the 3rd one. They're so soul-suckingly dismal and humorless, it's become practically hilarious in how much **** gets slung at the characters at every waking moment. I'm all for dark and depressing, but it loses all it's effect for me if that's ALL that happens. When a character you like dies horribly and all you can muster is a "meh", it's time to put the book down. Maybe I'll try continuing in a few weeks.

Modifié par yukidama, 13 juillet 2011 - 11:02 .

[Melca36]

My female Hawke has nobody left at the time of Chantry explosion. She spent all her life as an apostate.

She loved her father so much that she's feels like she has failed him because of Bethany being dead, Carver being a Warden, and her mother's murder.

Letting Anders live at the end makes sense at the end because she is fed up at the end.

She also remembers what Flemeth said and realizes this is her big Leap. She will spend whatever time she has fighting for freedom of the mages and finding ways to expose the Chantry's hyprocrisy.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I can completely understand someone not liking the books. But when you've been living in the Warhammer universe mentally for a few years, Westeros seems like a sunny summer vacation. "Oh, he just died? His soul wasn't torn out and corrupted by a dark god? He wasn't inhabited by a plague that turned him into an oozing pus-filled monster? Well. That's sad, but it could be worse."

I came to ASoIaF when I had officially "broken up" with high fantasy. The last half-dozen series I'd decided to read had been horrible, cliche-ridden slogs that left me saying 'well, I guess I liked this when I was younger somehow, but it's not something I can stand anymore.' Then ASoIaF threw half of those cliches out the window. True, they smashed dully through the skulls of people I loved, but at least they were gone.

Also, I've been fortunate. I read the books for a small number of characters at this point. Out of the ten I'm most invested in, probably only three or four have died, and they weren't in my top 3. If everyone in my top 3 had died, I would have stopped reading. Right now I'm pot-committed, because if I read five books I might as well read six, but still. I know a lot of people whose top 3 died before the end of book two.

If it weren't for ASoIaF to change what I saw as things being "overly grim" I probably wouldn't have enjoyed Dragon Age as much. The first time I heard about DA I thought "oh, that sounds stupidly grim," and was pleased by things like Alistair, Zevran, Sigrun, and Anders (my brooooos). If I was comparing the humor level to Pratchett instead, I would have rolled my eyes at the first darkspawn and switched off.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 13 juillet 2011 - 11:19 .

[mellifera]

As I said, I don't mind grim and depressing. Hell, usually I advocate for more of it. But when it becomes "dark" to the point of being funny because of it, I think it's time to put the books down. They could probably kill all my favorites in ASoIaF and I wouldn't blink.

Chances are they'll just come back as a zombie anyway, lol.

Modifié par yukidama, 13 juillet 2011 - 11:20 .

[ipgd]

i am an insatiable masochist who subsists off pain and suffering so i'm coo with it

Modifié par ipgd, 13 juillet 2011 - 11:22 .

[mellifera]

I usually am one too, but.... I want to cry, not laugh or not give a damn.

[ipgd]

There's at least one character I'm sure I'll lose my **** over if they die, SO BRING IT

actually no pls dont ):