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[SurelyForth]

So am I the only one who doesn't think Anders is secretive/a liar? I mean, he had that Big One, but I'm under the impression that after he and Hawke make it official, there's a lot of communicating happening. Admittedly, I am basing this solely on the fact that he is so terrible at lying/not dropping obvious/dramatic hints when it comes to Act 3. I see him as someone who, once he has someone who will listen to him and still love him in the morning, he's very open and the fact that he's not keeping his Act 2-> Act 3 blackouts/struggles under wraps is also telling.



by pyromaniac03

Modifié par SurelyForth, 16 juillet 2011 - 01:17 .

[Giggles_Manically]

I dont see Anders as a liar/user until the later part of Justice in act 3.

In act 1 and act 2 I appreciate his honesty with Hawke about helping him.
By act 3 though I think Vengeance has smashed Anders and Justice into itty bitty bits and has taken over really.

Although his act 3 dialouge if you turn down justice confuses me:
Fine dont trust me, but dont expect me to trust you ever again.

Uhm.... you dont trust rival Hawke their buddy... at all.
So there is really no trust to be had or broken or lost.

But no until act 3 I see Anders asking for help from Hawke, and being honest about it.
AKA: Help me rescue a friend (Karl)

[ademska]

SurelyForth wrote...

So am I the only one who doesn't think Anders is secretive/a liar? I mean, he had that Big One, but I'm under the impression that after he and Hawke make it official, there's a lot of communicating happening. Admittedly, I am basing this solely on the fact that he is so terrible at lying/not dropping obvious/dramatic hints when it comes to Act 3. I see him as someone who, once he has someone who will listen to him and still love him in the morning, he's very open and the fact that he's not keeping his Act 2-> Act 3 blackouts/struggles under wraps is also telling.

is this apropos of our hawke-anders assessments or...? because, at least in mine, their tragedy's got little to do with trust issues (like i know some posited) and a lot more to do with them both being complete nutters.

i don't consider anders at all secretive either. the codex explicitly states that their relationship is devoted, and i never saw any implication that anders' pro-mage actions during that time skip were ever kept secret from hawke; if anything, like you said, the existence of the blackouts and struggles in his codex entries says the opposite.

i think the unavoidable (and incredibly obvious) chantry lie is as effective as it is to so many players because anders has been nothing but forthcoming up to that point. which makes me baffled at the people who kill him just because baww he lied to my hawke

@elle
"unhinged" to me implies signficantly impaired cognitive ability in some regard. anders is crazy (and so is that hawke, to a lesser degree), and they're without a doubt emotionally unstable and volatile, but they're not, y'know, demented.

Modifié par ademska, 16 juillet 2011 - 01:38 .

[highcastle]

Regarding the lying thing, I don't believe Anders purposefully misleads Hawke, but I do believe he conceals things. He doesn't come right out and tell Hawke everything about the Wardens during their conversation in the Deep Roads, and there's no indication that he confesses later everything he concealed about the order. Granted, the Wardens are pretty secretive in general.

There's also the fact that he never (as far as the game lets us know) even tells Hawke his real name. These are some big things he lives with and never (explicitly) lets Hawke know. I don't think he withholds these things to be cruel or deceptive, though. I think he does it because they're painful memories he doesn't particularly want to relive. But that doesn't change the fact that he can be secretive.

[beckaliz]

Chantry bombing aside, no, I don't think Anders is a liar. But he's definitely secretive, and I actually disagree that there's a lot of communicating going on. As far as having a big open "reveal" of all of the painful things in Anders's past goes. I think that Anders is very firmly rooted in the present. He's not proud of himself for anything. I feel like the most he'd ever really reveal about his past is little trivial snippets. Maybe funny anecdotes. He is certainly not going to bring up his own emotional pain, because he is devoted to the plight of mages.

He's not a "liar" per se, but he is certainly not very open about things. When romancing Hawke, he's focused on two things: taking care of mages, and taking care of Hawke. He isn't going to think that telling about his past is important.

[SurelyForth]

I guess I don't see the Warden or name thing being important enough for him to share. He makes it clear why he doesn't talk about the Wardens, also making it clear that it's terrible and he seems to regret that he can't say more. He also seems willing to share tales of the Wardens with Varric, so he's not keeping it all to himself.

And his name...eh. I guess it could be a thing, but my take is that he's as Anders as he is anything else (especially since, in his short story, he thinks of himself in terms of Anders). There's a lot that doesn't get covered in the game, and I imagine that Anders mentioning that his name is something else that is probably discussed along with his escape attempts and Hawke's past and isn't considered a big enough deal to warrant an explicit mention.

@beckaliz I think he'd talk about what happened to him in the Tower...since he alludes to it in regards to Karl and in conversation with Sebastian. When Hawke gets to talk to him, the discussion hinges on the present because it's pertinent to the plot of the game. And he tells Varric about his pillow when he doesn't have to...that's probably one of the most painful memories of his life, but he's willing to share it with someone he cares about.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 16 juillet 2011 - 02:12 .

[legbamel]

Anders definitely keeps his own council on his history. I tend to think that's something he started doing when he came to the Circle and by now it's almost habit. But when he sets out to deliberately deceive he's terrible at it.

[Taihsigva]

I think another reason why Anders may not be exactly forthcoming with personal experiences that would probably cause a "but don't you trust me enough to tell me?!?" reaction is that the understanding of them is so situated in having lived with a particular set of events or circumstances, or a particular identity, that trying to explain to somebody who doesn't have that background would just be a long uphill battle. And even if the memories themselves aren't painful or whatnot, trying to get the other person to understand would be unpleasant in and of itself, regardless of how well-meaning the they are. So it saves a lot of frustrating going round in circles and ending up nowhere.

Err, I may be projecting a bit there. But nonetheless.

And I don't really get the name thing. Maybe because I know a lot of people who don't go by their legal names, some of whom just don't tell people what's written on their birth certificate, ever (myself almost included).

So maybe he's secretive. I'm a bit uncomfortable with how that always seems like a condemnation, like people are obliged to share certain information with others once their relationship develops to such-and-such a level, because that's what's required to say you trust them. Sometimes it's not about trust, and I don't think holding Anders or anyone to some societal standard of what your [partner/friend/whatever] should know about you does overly much good in the long run.

[highcastle]

@SurelyForth: I bring up the name thing as a symptom. Regardless of whether it means something to Anders anymore, that's still a major part of his past to leave under wraps. The person he was for the first eleven years of his life is still a complete mystery, even down to the most basic of information. I guess my feeling is: if something that simple he feels the need to keep to himself, then what else is he holding in?

And I think the Warden thing is rather important. Considering as far as we know in the game, Anders never even tells Hawke that he's living with a death sentence hanging over him. That's huge. That's akin to dating someone with a terminal illness and them never telling you until they're in the final stages.

As for the pillow...he only shares it with Varric when he's plotting his own death. It's a textbook move for people who are suicidal and really not a reflection on his openness. More of a: I'm feeling guilty and I want you to remember me, so here's something that shows you how much I care. I don't think he was that forthcoming with his past--beyond amusing anecdotes and such--during other times.

@legbamel: I agree completely. Again, this is coming from my studies in criminology. A common coping method with confinement is to wall yourself up so you don't feel the pain of your experiences. That means not really reflecting on the outside world because you don't want to compare it with the horror of your current state. And once you get into those sort of habits, they can be excruciatingly difficult to break. That's why it's so hard for many ex-convicts to adjust to life on the outside (amongst other reasons).

[legbamel]

@Taihsigva I definitely agree that his not sharing every detail of his previous life doesn't make him a bad person or make his relationship with Hawke less...intense. Except for the name thing. I tend to play my Hawkes as not even knowing it isn't his real name. He sounds Ferelden, he came from the Circle there, he joined the Wardens there, why would she think his name was short for Anderfels? But to me that's something you tell the people to whom you're the closest, if only in a "can you believe what my idiot parents named me" sort of thing. I mean, it's your NAME.

Fenris talks about not knowing his and Aveline talks about changing hers but Anders never mentions it. That strikes me as a pretty big symptom of how much of himself he's holding back or has lost entirely. And now I'm sad for him.

And on the subject of his name, can I just say how thrilled I am that no one in this thread has seen fit to call him by some cutesy nickname like Andi-bear?  

Modifié par legbamel, 16 juillet 2011 - 02:51 .

[ademska]

legbamel wrote...

@Taihsigva I definitely agree that his not sharing every detail of his previous life doesn't make him a bad person or make his relationship with Hawke less...intense. Except for the name thing. I tend to play my Hawkes as not even knowing it isn't his real name. He sounds Ferelden, he came from the Circle there, he joined the Wardens there, why would she think his name was short for Anderfels? But to me that's something you tell the people to whom you're the closest, if only in a "can you believe what my idiot parents named me" sort of thing. I mean, it's your NAME.

Fenris talks about not knowing his and Aveline talks about changing hers but Anders never mentions it. That strikes me as a pretty big symptom of how much of himself he's holding back or has lost entirely. And now I'm sad for him.

And on the subject of his name, can I just say how thrilled I am that no one in this thread has seen fit to call him by some cutesy nickname like Andi-bear?  

well, with fenris, his entire thematic purpose was amnesia and moving on and such. his 'real' name is significant because it represents the divide between what fenris was, what he is, and what he possibly could be.  if he chooses to learn more about his past, the name comes with it, and it all ties into that theme of building a new life versus holding on to memories. his name is representative of a life he literally can't remember, that potentially has no bearing on who he is now.

anders, meanwhile, remembers his life before the circle, before anyone knew he was a mage, and before that brand of either prisoner or fugitive would be irrevocably attached. his name hearkens back to a life he can never have back and a world that won't allow him. it just doesn't apply to him anymore.

the point being, not telling hawke his real name isn't symptomatic of communication issues or secrecy, it's just irrelevant and probably painful to think about.


also, if you really want we can call ourselves fanders

Modifié par ademska, 16 juillet 2011 - 03:16 .

[SurelyForth]

Here's the thing with the Wardens, though...do we know what he's even been told? You don't *have* to find out about the Wardens' shortened lifespans from Alistair, and you don't have to share that information with any of the companions in Awakening. I mean, the Wardens are incredibly secretive, as you said, and it stands to reason that between the Blight and the attacks in Amaranthine, there's a lot that Anders, who was a Warden for less than a year, simply might not know. And...that's not his purpose in the game. Content-wise, he has his plate full with Being The Cause of Mages. I imagine BW figures we know all about the Wardens, we don't need Anders to talk about it at all unless there's a reason.

And I think one of the tragedies of Anders is that he can't wall himself off from his pain anymore. Once he takes Justice in, those walls are destroyed. Hepler said herself that he feels huge emotions, and it comes across when he does mention something related to what he's been through. Unless he never, ever talks about his life before Kirkwall (which we KNOW he doesn't do, again Karl and the whole Justicing out when talking about how mage children are taken) Hawke is going to at least have a good idea of what's happened to him. Even with the other companions he talks openly about how it feels to be possessed, he tells Isabela the exact moment in his life that he realized he was being selfish, end even before Justice he hinted strongly at abuse and how difficult his life was...and it's clear that he does feel something when he's talking about how he was treated and how all mages are treated.

Because of his purpose in the game, and because of his importance to the main plot (and the fact that it's a game of limited resources), I understand why he doesn't talk more about his past in dialogue with Hawke...because he has other things that concern him and his "professional" focus is the current mage situation and his personal situation is Justice. I just have a difficult time calling the man who goes into pretty explicit detail about his spirit/demon possession to the first person who seems willing to like him and then is so incapable of hiding pretty much every feeling he has from those around him secretive.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 16 juillet 2011 - 03:17 .

[Amondra]

SurelyForth wrote...

Here's the thing with the Wardens, though...do we know what he's even been told? You don't *have* to find out about the Wardens' shortened lifespans from Alistair, and you don't have to share that information with any of the companions in Awakening. I mean, the Wardens are incredibly secretive, as you said, and it stands to reason that between the Blight and the attacks in Amaranthine, there's a lot that Anders, who was a Warden for less than a year, simply might not know. And...that's not his purpose in the game. Content-wise, he has his plate full with Being The Cause of Mages. I imagine BW figures we know all about the Wardens, we don't need Anders to talk about it at all unless there's a reason.

And I think one of the tragedies of Anders is that he can't wall himself off from his pain anymore. Once he takes Justice in, those walls are destroyed. Hepler said herself that he feels huge emotions, and it comes across when he does mention something related to what he's been through. Unless he never, ever talks about his life before Kirkwall (which we KNOW he doesn't do, again Karl and the whole Justicing out when talking about how mage children are taken) Hawke is going to at least have a good idea of what's happened to him. Even with the other companions he talks openly about how it feels to be possessed, he tells Isabela the exact moment in his life that he realized he was being selfish, end even before Justice he hinted strongly at abuse and how difficult his life was...and it's clear that he does feel something when he's talking about how he was treated and how all mages are treated.

Because of his purpose in the game, and because of his importance to the main plot (and the fact that it's a game of limited resources), I understand why he doesn't talk more about his past in dialogue with Hawke...because he has other things that concern him and his "professional" focus is the current mage situation and his personal situation is Justice. I just have a difficult time calling the man who goes into pretty explicit detail about his spirit/demon possession to the first person who seems willing to like him and then is so incapable of hiding pretty much every feeling he has from those around him secretive.

And this is why we have fanfiction there can be fluff time for Anders to spill her heart out about the Wardens!

[highcastle]

I should probably clarify: I don't think Anders is being secretive to be deceitful or purposefully withholding. I think there are things he doesn't like to think or talk about, and that he may very well consider irrelevant (like his name), but that nonetheless define him. In many ways, he and Fenris are foils. You have one character who can't remember his past and so wishes it were otherwise, and another who lived through some terrible things he tries to ignore/suppress.

I think he's very honest with Hawke about his feelings and emotions. Like Ms. Hepler said and SurelyForth rightly pointed out, he feels things in a big way. So I don't think he would sit there and lie about how he's feeling. I just think there are large parts of his life he'd rather not deal with. Now, game resources may indeed be a reason for why we don't hear about them in game. But since they're not in the game, any in-story justification belongs to head-canon. You can imagine that he shared those pieces of his past or not. The game doesn't tell us one way or the other. I personally see him as playing things a bit more close-to-the-vest. But that's merely my interpretation and part of it stems from a gut instinct I have about him. There are various little things in the way he says some lines and the content of his speech that makes me think what we (and Hawke) get is really only iceberg-like--there's so much more hidden beneath the surface.

As for the Justice thing...at that point, I don't think he had much of a choice. Hawke saw what he did, there was no denying he was an abomination. So he told the truth and hoped Hawke would realize he wasn't a complete monster and thus decide not to turn him over to the templars. The question you have to ask yourself if this: would Anders have told Hawke about Justice if he'd never gone all blue and glowy? It's purely conjecture, but it's one of those things it might be interesting to think about.

Now it's late in my time zone and I'm heading to bed before I absolutely crash. Also, I always liked Anderstians. It's got just the right amount of sacrilege for my taste.

[maxernst]

@ Highcastle, I think you make good points. However, as many issues as I have with Anders, keeping those kinds of secrets is something I can relate to, even if I know it's bad for the relationship in the long run. But then, my fanfic involves a non-canon M!Cousland/Alistair romance and Aedan only reveals the Dark Ritual to Alistair five years later, after he's been called to Weisshaupt to explain their survival and...other things are happening. I understand people not wanting to talk about things in their past that are painful, that are shameful, even when they should. That's not to say it isn't a problem--Part 2 of my story wound up with a rather sad ending that I didn't anticipate when I began it--but psychologically, it's easy for me to empathize with.

[beckaliz]

I think his being straightforward about his possession is actually a shield, rather than being open about it. It's like a disclaimer. He needs to know that he's going to be accepted despite that.

More importantly, it's not like they didn't SEE it happen. They're gonna want to know about it. I can imagine him having the (very valid) fear that if he doesn't explain it to Hawke's satisfaction that Hawke is just gonna axe him right off the bat.


Edit: Damnit HI-C ninja'd me.

Modifié par beckaliz, 16 juillet 2011 - 03:42 .

[LT123]

Regarding the Wardens' shortened lifespans, I can't imagine that the Warden-Commander didn't share that information with the Awakening recruits at some point. Granted, they're spending their time running around the arling of Amaranthine, but still. That's kind of important. And the fact that no one gets their Warden's Oath pendant surprised me. Lack of resources/they forgot/they wanted to leave everybody's amulet slot free with the exception of Anders' Fox Pendant?

Anders does mention being "hopelessly tainted by the darkspawn" when you first meet him. Also being "plagued by nightmares about the archdemon" which frankly makes no sense, since there's not a Blight going on.

And since we're talking about Anders failing at lying, have an appropriate picture.



I wonder if Anders was any good at lying pre-merge, since you'd think he'd need to come up with some sort of cover story or identity during escapes. If so, maybe Justice just shot that "good at lying" bit to pieces along with his coping mechanisms because LYING IS UNJUST (unless he's doing it to try to protect Hawke, anyway). Or maybe he's just always been terrible at it.

[ashyraine]

LT123 wrote...

Regarding the Wardens' shortened lifespans, I can't imagine that the Warden-Commander didn't share that information with the Awakening recruits at some point. Granted, they're spending their time running around the arling of Amaranthine, but still. That's kind of important. And the fact that no one gets their Warden's Oath pendant surprised me. Lack of resources/they forgot/they wanted to leave everybody's amulet slot free with the exception of Anders' Fox Pendant?

Anders does mention being "hopelessly tainted by the darkspawn" when you first meet him. Also being "plagued by nightmares about the archdemon" which frankly makes no sense, since there's not a Blight going on.

And since we're talking about Anders failing at lying, have an appropriate picture.

[snip]

I wonder if Anders was any good at lying pre-merge, since you'd think he'd need to come up with some sort of cover story or identity during escapes. If so, maybe Justice just shot that "good at lying" bit to pieces along with his coping mechanisms because LYING IS UNJUST (unless he's doing it to try to protect Hawke, anyway). Or maybe he's just always been terrible at it.

I think he might have failed at lying even then. Could explain why he was always caught..

[berelinde]

ashyraine wrote...

LT123 wrote...
[snip]

I wonder if Anders was any good at lying pre-merge, since you'd think he'd need to come up with some sort of cover story or identity during escapes. If so, maybe Justice just shot that "good at lying" bit to pieces along with his coping mechanisms because LYING IS UNJUST (unless he's doing it to try to protect Hawke, anyway). Or maybe he's just always been terrible at it.

I think he might have failed at lying even then. Could explain why he was always caught..

He got caught because they have his phylactery.

Awakenings Anders could well have been a great deal better at lying, the reason being that his "defense mode" was in so much better shape. He used humor and insincerity to protect himself, so it would make sense if those two attributes were more developed. I do realize that insincerity is not the same as dishonesty, but it's close... if you squint.

While it isn't exactly true that DA2 Anders is what is left when you strip away Awakening Anders's shell, it is not as far off as one might think. Then again, "one might think" a lot of things, so maybe I'd better go back to bed.

[cleosilver]

ademska wrote...


also, if you really want we can call ourselves fanders

I thought we were Anderstians

[beckaliz]

cleosilver wrote...

ademska wrote...

also, if you really want we can call ourselves fanders

I thought we were Anderstians

Fanders is too close to "Fenders". lol

[beckaliz]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

beckaliz wrote...

cleosilver wrote...

I thought we were Anderstians 

Fanders is too close to "Fenders". lol

How about this. We are ordinarily Anderstians until we get so mad that we lose all control over ourselves and the Fanders side of our personalities comes out, glowing in all the colors of the rainbow and throwing hermetized food at people we think are stupid.

That TOTALLY works. I like this plan. Like our own version of the Justice transformation. Ho ho ho!

[legbamel]

Ack! Would that make us Fanderstians when rainbow-glowy as Janders does with his ice-blue cool?

The Warden Commander does talk about a shortened life span with Anders in some dialogue at least once. I think it's by the lyrium forge in the Deep Roads. But I don't see the Warden pulling any punches with her new recruits. If anything, I'd think he/she would be as forthright as possible after having Duncan die before he could tell her anything particularly helpful.

[Amondra]

 I just wanted to drop this off, a commission done from me of Thera and Anders. Thera is horridly drunk on lyrium and ale >_>