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[Heidenreich]

Oo look Fenris chat! I love Fenris chat!

I.. would quote some one, but I'm half asleep in that I should be asleep but for some reason  I'm not kind of way. So I'll wing it! Because sleepy winging is way more fun.

I got the distinct impression that Lito, aka the man Fenris was prior to said markings, was well educated for a slave. Perhaps not "book" educated, but educated in social graces and the like. Even afterwards, Fenris was body guard, not a laboror or a cook. He was a personal guard taught to observe, see,  and watch for danger in all its myrad forms. Which, having been a Magister's personal guard would requre someone with very good perception skills. There is much more threatening in a person's body language and tone-of-phrase then a punch thrown, sometimes.

Proper language, body language, and grace more then likely would have had to been required. On top of the fact that Denarius probably would have wanted someone intelligent enough to hold a conversation with who wasn't trying to suck up to him for powers sake. Mind you he probably was sucking up for the sake of his own life, but its all in the details, really.

We also don't know how long he'd actually been in his Fenris state. We only know that he'd been on the run three years at the point Hawke meets him. We don't know what the Fog warriors taught him. We don't know if one of Denarius' biggest kicks was to say, "Look at my well spoken pet! He does my bidding, knows not who he is beyond what I tell him.. and is quite eloquent too! HA!"

It's actually one of my favorite bits about the character.  I adore that both boys seem so very well spoken, as if they're trying to compete with each other for who can be more elegant.  "Look at ME Hawke, I know all sorts of wonderful things that He doesn't!"

I'm also a firm believer, having only been able to stomach the rivalry path once and set solidly in the Fenris-is-my-friend camp, that the whole "I can't read" thing is a sob-story act to have an excuse to spend more time around Hawek. But, that's all head canon!


Wait,. this is the Anders thread right? *rubs sleepy eyes*

[Sinaxi]

Yeah, I thought that too. Danarius DID value Fenris pretty highly, even if it was just for the lyrium burned into his skin. The Magisters are all pretty powerful, in politics and such as well.

And haha, when I gave him the gift and he told me that he couldn't read I was like What?! AAAAWWWWW

The fact that Anders will argue with Fenris in the party banter about what Hawke ever saw in him (and then later confront Hawke about it directly in his personal quest) is funny since he does it even if you've hardly romanced him...he's quite jealous. It's like he's predisposed to totally want Hawke. But then again, he DOES tell you if you romance him that he's been wanting you for 3 years. So...yeah..lol.

[Arquen]

Holy crap... did I click wrong thread?

This is from phone so... yeah. I've always had totally opposite problem with not being able to go through a romance with Anders and always ending up with fenris.

Also, as far as his speech and knowledge.. this comes up a lot. One, he's from tevinter.. people from tevinter tend to talk like him. "Blood and spite!" "Ahh my little fenris..." and even that guy in da:o who had the elves in the alienage and was going to sell them as slaves. "You do not want me dead!" - hadrianna. It is a learned way of speaking from being in tevinter. I think about the tevinter characters you encounter and most of them have that speech pattern.

Also, fenris can't read.. he is illiterate not blind or ignorant. Moreover, he is a thinker. He observes, learns, ponders. He knows things from traveling. From the fog warriors. Danarius regaurded him as valuable. Used him to intimidate people but treated him as a pet. To me, not a loved pet, but takes care of basic needs. Fenris said danarius never wanted his slaves to feel like they were worth anything.

So.... about that. Anders must know some tevinter custom. He read some books. Wonder if he knows arcanum. I feel Anders speech esp in act 3 is exponentially more moody than fenris. Fenris is abrasive and disagreeable, but he takes everyones words into consideration, and he does grow as a person. Anders degenerates into an antagonistic way of blaming everyone for being wrong because they don't agree with him. I find that more abrasive than anything fenris says.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Firstly, "Common" (Ferelden? What's the dominant language in Thedas?) is Fenris's second language, isn't it? Arcanum would be his first, right? People often speak overly formally in their second language... I know they used to tease me at the Shinjuku bars for my desu masu speech. It could also be Arcanum speech patterns leaking over into Common, like the Russian who forgets articles, because Russian doesn't have articles.

Secondly, you don't have to be able to read to be well-spoken. A relative of mine has a learning disability that makes reading very time-consuming and agonizing, yet he grew up surrounded by bookworms, so he has the vocabulary and speech structure of a bookworm. The speech patterns may be something he picked up from the people he associated with, or something he was plain-old trained to do: Danarius had him pouring wine and serving at table, so drilling him on fancy speech and politeness could have been yet another way of showing him off.

I like that all the companions have distinct voices, including what I call "signature words," words that a character always uses in a given situation. I can't remember all the Anders ones I had listed a while ago, but his Andraste's _____ curses are amusingly distinctive. Fenris has his little perhaps. Perhaps perhaps perhaps. I don't know if Fenris ever says maybe.

I like the distinctness of all the companion's "text voices" and I think they did a very good job differentiating them. Fenris sounds like a steward or servant in some old novel, carefully choosing his phrasing (oh my god FENRIS JEEVES. HAWKE WOOSTER. Brb, rolling new Hawke: Bertie). Anders, on the other hand, sounds like a scholar. Anders sounds like one of those kids from debate club who doesn't realize that that's not how arguments work in the real world. Fenris's speech patterns sound trained, ingrained, so even when he is angry he keeps to those patterns. Fenris sounds like someone who speaks as he does for a reason, while Anders speaks as he does because he can't help it. I'm not sure if this is making any sense. Anders also goes with metaphor and allusion and poetry, while as seemingly formal as Fenris's speech patterns are, he tends to get right to the point.

Fenris has the ingrained politeness and formality of a high-ranking servant's speech, freed from the limitations on what can be said that would be imposed on a servant or slave by protocol. I enjoy hearing him chew someone out with the same sentence structure he would use to ask his master's leave to do something. ("Were yours carved into your flesh?" is said in much the same voice Jeeves would say "Is sir absolutely certain that he wishes to wear the mustard-yellow suit?") In contrast, Anders is a highly educated man trying to speak casually, with an undercurrent of having to rapidly deal with sudden moodswings and emotional outbursts.

[Sinaxi]

On your small note of Ander's moodswings and emotional outbursts...I just wanted to say that Anders really does freak me out sometimes. I'm in the Qunari compound and you click on him and he's like "Qunari give me the creeps. No one is that dedicated to some abstract ideal."

UHHH, WHAT?? I swear, I feel like Bioware almost tried too hard to make Anders seem like he was completely bipolar/split personality even. (I believe Hepler said something about how she wrote him with a bipolar person in mind) Throughout the course of the game he constantly is contradicting himself and being pretty hypocritical concerning other people's viewpoints. It makes no sense to me how he can contradict himself at every turn. I just don't see the reasoning for writing him like that, I guess. It makes it seem like he truly has no idea what he is even saying, surely he would be smart enough to realize that the very things he sometimes condemns are a lot like how he acts/things he's previously said..?

I'm not just talking about that one line, since I wouldn't say that the whole "mage freedom" movement is an abstract ideal but I would say that in a way Ander's idea of justice is very abstract. Reminds me of something Isabela says to him actually...

* Anders: There is justice in the world.
* Isabela: Is there? You want to free the mages. Let's say you do, but to get there, you kill a bunch of innocent people.
* Isabela: What about them? Don't they then deserve justice?
* Anders: Yes.
* Isabela: And then what? Where does it end?
* Isabela: It's like a bar brawl. People are continuously pulled into the fray, and nobody remembers why it started.
* Isabela: Justice is an idea. It makes sense in a world of ideas, but not in our world.

I'm just curious why there are so many different points in the game where Anders says things like this. Another glaring hypocrisy is when he gets upset about Hawke/Fenris relationship and says that Fenris has let "one bad experience color his whole life". I would say you could apply that to Anders as well. It's just a little odd to me..there are a lot of smaller examples of this throughout the game too.

Modifié par Tidra, 18 juillet 2011 - 07:06 .

[Arquen]

I laughed way to hard at fenris jeeves. I always imagine fenris alfred. Lmao... still, pretty spot on. His pattern is unique, and as a fellow perhapser I approve of its use .

Anders does remind me of a debater, and yeah I do facepalm at his arguments sometimes. I think I agree with cgg in the whole annoyed just when they are getting to the good arguments the scene cuts thing. I think Anders has significantly more to offer than the game gives him as far as argumentative/debating ability.

Also I am a total fengirl, but.... Anders thread... just sayin....

[Amondra]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Firstly, "Common" (Ferelden? What's the dominant language in Thedas?) is Fenris's second language, isn't it? Arcanum would be his first, right? People often speak overly formally in their second language... I know they used to tease me at the Shinjuku bars for my desu masu speech. It could also be Arcanum speech patterns leaking over into Common, like the Russian who forgets articles, because Russian doesn't have articles.

Secondly, you don't have to be able to read to be well-spoken. A relative of mine has a learning disability that makes reading very time-consuming and agonizing, yet he grew up surrounded by bookworms, so he has the vocabulary and speech structure of a bookworm. The speech patterns may be something he picked up from the people he associated with, or something he was plain-old trained to do: Danarius had him pouring wine and serving at table, so drilling him on fancy speech and politeness could have been yet another way of showing him off.

I like that all the companions have distinct voices, including what I call "signature words," words that a character always uses in a given situation. I can't remember all the Anders ones I had listed a while ago, but his Andraste's _____ curses are amusingly distinctive. Fenris has his little perhaps. Perhaps perhaps perhaps. I don't know if Fenris ever says maybe.

I like the distinctness of all the companion's "text voices" and I think they did a very good job differentiating them. Fenris sounds like a steward or servant in some old novel, carefully choosing his phrasing (oh my god FENRIS JEEVES. HAWKE WOOSTER. Brb, rolling new Hawke: Bertie). Anders, on the other hand, sounds like a scholar. Anders sounds like one of those kids from debate club who doesn't realize that that's not how arguments work in the real world. Fenris's speech patterns sound trained, ingrained, so even when he is angry he keeps to those patterns. Fenris sounds like someone who speaks as he does for a reason, while Anders speaks as he does because he can't help it. I'm not sure if this is making any sense. Anders also goes with metaphor and allusion and poetry, while as seemingly formal as Fenris's speech patterns are, he tends to get right to the point.

Fenris has the ingrained politeness and formality of a high-ranking servant's speech, freed from the limitations on what can be said that would be imposed on a servant or slave by protocol. I enjoy hearing him chew someone out with the same sentence structure he would use to ask his master's leave to do something. ("Were yours carved into your flesh?" is said in much the same voice Jeeves would say "Is sir absolutely certain that he wishes to wear the mustard-yellow suit?") In contrast, Anders is a highly educated man trying to speak casually, with an undercurrent of having to rapidly deal with sudden moodswings and emotional outbursts.

I just figured it would because I have dysgraphia and it shows in both speech, and writing.  Also I know when people talk in a second language they speak more formally I did it for a long time with English.  But there are time to me at least he just seems more educated then he leads on about how he was treated as a slave.  I know his mind was erased, but I only know that because of the forums here, outside of that I wouldn't have known so it seemed off to me for a while.  It also, again to me, a bit a hole in his character.  I mean he talks about how poorly he was treat, but he couldn't have been so bad if he was taught to speak properly.  He makes it sound like he was to be seen not heard.  It's like Anders being overly contridicting.  It just seems to much to me.  

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Anders hypocritical outbursts are one of the things that I am annoyed that Hawke can't call him out on. I just have to assume that every time there is a loading screen, Hawke is grabbing him by his lapels and saying "Do you even LISTEN to yourself? Seriously." (That's another thing on my 'list of things we need to help Anders with: seeing his own hypocrisy, and realizing that there are causes other than mages. He comes close in the alienage, with his "elves have suffered too" bit, but even then he doesn't put two and two together fully.)

The one argument for taking down the Chantry that I have never actually seen contradicted is this: even outside of the issue of mages, they created an international system of apartheid that persists today, with the elves. Everyone can agree that apartheid is a bad thing, and I'd assume that they'd admit that an entity capable of creating an international system of apartheid and maintaining it for centuries is, in fact, a political entity. Whether or not the apartheid is still actively enforced by the entity is irrelevant: they created the problem, created the system. The fact that the Chantry is responsible for the oppression of both elves and mages makes the mage argument so much stronger.

There's more to this argument, but I'm sleepy and I just took something for my shoulder and I'm halfway through A Clash of Kings (going so much faster than Game of Thrones) so I don't have the will to write an entire manifesto here tonight. The shorter version is this: Anders says near the end "I am the cause of mages, there is nothing else inside of me." Yet in Awakenings, Justice was able to see both sides of Velanna's "humans versus Dalish" conflict. The single-mindedness of JAnders comes entirely from Anders, but I believe that that's a good thing, because the human part of JAnders can change, because humans can change. Getting Anders to realize that there is more to both Justice AND Vengenace than "hey sexy momma, wanna kill all the humans templars?" is a thing I want desperately to do.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 18 juillet 2011 - 07:33 .

[Arquen]

I assume Anders realizes there are other causes than mages, but they don't really concern him. I think it is more a he sees himself as the cause of mages, therefore that is all he focuses on. Im not sure if it is Anders or justice or both who really make that singlemindedness goal, but in the end I don't think he is blind to suffering or causes of others. He just has priorities based on his cylon missive.....waaiitt... I mean based on his root beliefs and experience. I think justice was able to see both sides in daa and still does, but he was always rather single minded about things especially once he had made a decision about what was JUST!

[Nilfalasiel]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Anders hypocritical outbursts are one of the things that I am annoyed that Hawke can't call him out on. I just have to assume that every time there is a loading screen, Hawke is grabbing him by his lapels and saying "Do you even LISTEN to yourself? Seriously." (That's another thing on my 'list of things we need to help Anders with: seeing his own hypocrisy, and realizing that there are causes other than mages. He comes close in the alienage, with his "elves have suffered too" bit, but even then he doesn't put two and two together fully.)

Hmm...is it possible that the hypocrisy comes from the fact that sometimes it's Justice doing the talking, and sometimes, some of the old Anders comes back to the surface? The bit about the abstract ideal sounds like something old Anders may have said.

That being said, calling him "old Anders" gives me a sad. And makes me think of Old Snake.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Amondra wrote...
I just figured it would because I have dysgraphia and it shows in both speech, and writing.  Also I know when people talk in a second language they speak more formally I did it for a long time with English.  But there are time to me at least he just seems more educated then he leads on about how he was treated as a slave.  I know his mind was erased, but I only know that because of the forums here, outside of that I wouldn't have known so it seemed off to me for a while.  It also, again to me, a bit a hole in his character.  I mean he talks about how poorly he was treat, but he couldn't have been so bad if he was taught to speak properly.  He makes it sound like he was to be seen not heard.  It's like Anders being overly contridicting.  It just seems to much to me. 

There's a difference between "being seen and not heard" and "speaking with courtesy to our guests." I get more of the latter from Fenris: I picture him asking visiting Magisters if they would care for more wine, or escorting them to Danarius's chamber. In English literature, a clear distinction is made between two kinds of servants: upstairs and downstairs. The upstairs servants often speak even more formally than their masters, while the downstairs servants are all common and speak as you would expect someone of a lower social class to speak. Now apply the same distinction to slaves: Fenris was an upstairs slave. In Tevinter, positions that would be filled by servants in most western literature are filled by slaves instead: think of Fenris as a slave butler as well as a slave bodyguard. A butler or valet is highly educated and highly trained in a very specific set of skills.

Now true, most upstairs servants would likely be able to read, but I think that's an important distinction between servant and slave. Slaves are not taught to read in order to limit their ability to communicate with one another. I think Fenris is likely very highly trained and specifically educated, with literacy as a deliberate omission: the skills Fenris does display (poilte speech, education about social customs and the history of nearby countries, knowledge of food and wine) are all useful and would make him a more valuable slave and a good "upstairs" servant, teaching a slave to read and write is far too dangerous.

Honestly, Fenris's training and polite speech remind me more of a different type of slave often found in fantasy literature: the slave concubine. They are often taught to speak courteously on many subjects, play musical instruments, given fine clothing to wear and are in general highly educated, but they are still property. That's the point. Their education and fine words are part of their value, but they are still slaves. That's what Fenris is as well, only with fighting instead of sex.

To bring things back to Anders, Gaider has repeatedly made the distinction between slave and prisoner, saying that mages are the latter rather than the former. Can prisoners be used as slave labor? Yes, and mages may be used in such a way at times, but the majority of a mage's life resembles that of a prisoner rather than a slave. Some people use this as 'proof' that Fenris has it harder than Anders, and I don't really agree: one isn't inherently better or worse than the other, they're just distinctly different kinds of awful. Again I don't have the focus right now to put forth a clear list of the distinctions, but the form and purpose of your education is different between the two. The training of a slave is whatever their master wishes them to be trained in, and they are actively discouraged from seeking out skills that do not specifically serve some purpose their master requires. Prisoners are often allowed to direct their own education. That's because a slave's education is something that exists only to add to their value and utility, while a prisoner's education is just another privilege that could be revoked. "For now your mind is free, you have something to pass the time, but we could take that, too." (There's an extra wrinkle to this with mages, because of the Harrowing and the demons; for now assume I'm talking about harrowed mages.)

All the things that Fenris knows are things it would be useful for a slave to know: especially a combination butler/bodyguard/protocol droid (Ok, I just thought of that last bit, but it totally fits). Reading and writing were omitted because the danger inherent in them outweighs their usefulness.

While the education of a slave is specifically tailored so that they don't become dangerous or get dangerous ideas, it's already assumed that a prisoner is dangerous and has dangerous ideas. The circle educational system seems designed to give mages a sense of control over at least one aspect of their life, which ideally makes them more manageable and content.

A slave's education is designed to increase utility without increasing the likelihood of seeking freedom, or having the means to explore the possibility of freedom. A prisoner's education is designed to give them the illusion of freedom, and a distraction that makes it less likely they will cause trouble.

/ramble

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 18 juillet 2011 - 08:58 .

[berelinde]

Arquen wrote...

I assume Anders realizes there are other causes than mages, but they don't really concern him. I think it is more a he sees himself as the cause of mages, therefore that is all he focuses on. Im not sure if it is Anders or justice or both who really make that singlemindedness goal, but in the end I don't think he is blind to suffering or causes of others. He just has priorities based on his cylon missive.....waaiitt... I mean based on his root beliefs and experience. I think justice was able to see both sides in daa and still does, but he was always rather single minded about things especially once he had made a decision about what was JUST!

Quoting your post as a reference for these opinions, not because I'm singling you out. This thread tends to move around a bit, so the conversation might have progressed to Andicorns or something before I finish typing.

If it weren't a bazillion degrees in my house, I might be willing to debate Justice's objectivity. If I did, I would argue that during his "information gathering" phase, i.e. Awakening, he did consider all relevant facts and opposing opinions... through the sources he had available, which were admitedly limited. Once he committed to a verdict, however, he would probably stick to it. Justice does not waffle. (Though the concept of Justice eating waffles is rather amusing.)

IMO, the root cause of Anders monomania is that he has allowed himself to become the vessel of an entirely single-minded entity. Once committed, Justice, or more particularly Vengeance, is incapable of turning aside until his objective is achieved. The little part of Anders's brain that preserves his individual personality and beliefs might have been inclined to be more openminded, but we all know how Justice feels about distractions. If Anders were capable of having a conversation with Justice, I could see Anders pointing at, say, the vidathari elves and saying "And what's so just about that?" And then Justice/Vengeance would say "Will helping them accomplish our mission? Does it further our cause? No. Do not allow trivialities to distract you. We have much to do." Since Anders isn't able to converse with Justice, exactly, he probably just finds that attempts to think about things other than mages are usually derailed. Like trying to have a telephone conversation while babysitting your spoiled six year old nephew. Ain't gonna happen, and even attempting it will lead to frustration.

And again, if it were not so darned hot, I might suggest that part of the reason for Anders's Act 3 collapse is that, whether Ella lives or dies, Anders is deliberately trying to stall his objective. By endlessly writing and rewriting his manifesto, (and by writing the dozens of anonymous letters to Elthina that exist only in my headcanon,) he, Anders the man, is exhausting every possible means of resolving this peacefully. Why does he not take a more active stance or participate in any public debates? That assumes that anyone would be willing to debate with him. Also, even if he does enjoy a certain degree of latitude by virtue of being Hawke's friend, he is still an apostate. There is only so much noise he can make before the templars send someone to deal with him that even Varric's protection money cannot sway. So, he is limited to writing his manifesto... and the anonymous letters that my imagination supplies. All of this delay and circumspection annoys the living daylights out of him, as well. How frustrating it must be to work with tied hands. He is exhausted by too much passivity, and there is not much he can do about it. So yes, he is falling apart. No wonder he was so relieved after the Justice quest was complete. One way or another, it would all be over soon.

[AndreaDraco]

Evilnor wrote...

By TheSilverRaven

More kittens!

Modifié par AndreaDraco, 18 juillet 2011 - 12:08 .

[Arquen]

Must... resist... temptation... to derail.. thread...to... Fenris.....

Oh hell, why you people do this to me?

I have to say being a slave is akin to being a prisoner, but there are distinctions that cannot be ignored. Anders and Fenris both had very difficult lives, and nobody is saying that they didn't. I think the whole "slaves are worse off than prisoners" comes from the distinction that slaves live by certain unchanging circumstances whereas prisoners have a give/take reward and rehabilitate system. Prisoner's in the end get more choice than slaves. Now, that is not to say there aren't some well treated slaves who practically live like "one of the family," but that is not a general rule but more of an exception within slavery. As is the idea that a prisoner is in solitary isolation without any freedom, company, choice, reward 100% of the time because he is "to dangerous." That is more accepted as a special circumstance and not the general description of prisoner. That is where people get the idea that Fenris had it worse than Anders, because of their interpretation and ideas about what a slave is vs what a prisoner is. I can't say they are wrong since we don't know the specifics in either case, and Anders never actually reveals much of the brutality he endured at the circle or by the templars. We have to infer a lot from his story. As we have to infer a lot from Fenris' banters and conversations and short story.

And berelinde I quite agree with you. I think Justice does.. or did.. weigh pros/cons/information/opinions/facts very objectively. He is a spirit after all, and he can look at things without human emotions and sympathies in the way. However, Justice always was very black/white when he made up his mind about something. He never did it lightly I don't think, but once his mission was set, he was very focused on it and nothing else.

This spills over to Janders, and unfortunately Anders is not only an apostate, but a Grey Warden apostate on the run trying to remain hidden from public view. It is rather difficult to rally people and start debates and resolve conflict if you have to constantly remain under the radar. This of course does not have any bearing on Justice because Justice wouldn't care, he would just focus on completing his goal of bringing JUSTICE to the people. He is rather self righteous that way, and I remember him in the Fade when you first meet him, rallying those villagers up and being all "death to the Queen!" or what have you . Anders probably is constantly fighting and suppressing that feeling of getting up and shouting from the rooftops about how change is needed. That is why I think he resorts so much to those manifestos. I wonder if it is Justice's voice in those moreso than Anders.'

I also wonder if Anders would attempt to sway Justice to other causes, or at least point them out. Justice would care no doubt, because he hates unjust things, but I think he can only focus on one Justice mission at a time. As Anders said, time has no meaning in the fade, so Justice can always be "okay.. we'll get to that later! First, mages!" So that begs the question is Anders just going to be stuck with righteous cause after righteous cause because of Justice? Or once Justice completes this mission he has completed what he set out to do for Anders and so will.. what.. leave? move on? remain passive?

[maxernst]

@CGG, that was a great meaty post with lots of good stuff on the differences between prisoners and slaves and on Fenris education. I think people tend to forget that slaves were used for all kinds of things, not just manual labor. In the Roman Empire, there were even slave tutors and slave scribes, and some of the slaves in the American South were skilled tradesmen.

[LadyJaneGrey]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Anders, on the other hand, sounds like a scholar. Anders sounds like one of those kids from debate club who doesn't realize that that's not how arguments work in the real world...Anders speaks as he does because he can't help it. I'm not sure if this is making any sense.

As someone who had many close friends in debate teams (one of whom won nationals during college):  This.  Is.  Brilliant.

It also explains much of the frustration I had with the character.  In real life, I can challenge a sweeping, uncompromising statement.  With Anders, there's no way to nuance your position or make him defend or reconsider his.  In his eyes, you're either totally on the mages freedom-all-the-way-side and think his merging with Justice is great - or you support all the templar abuses and think he and Justice are now a complete monster.

My first Hawke helped individuals on both sides of the conflict based on her judgment and did her best to show both sides have legitimate points, good guys, bad guys, etc.  This made Anders' going on about her always defending mages/being on his side towards the end a head-scratcher.   ENGAGE MY DECISIONS, DAMMIT, DON'T JUST RETREAT TO YOUR PAT IDEAS!

/End grousing. 

[beckaliz]

Tidra wrote...

On your small note of Ander's moodswings and emotional outbursts...I just wanted to say that Anders really does freak me out sometimes. I'm in the Qunari compound and you click on him and he's like "Qunari give me the creeps. No one is that dedicated to some abstract ideal."

UHHH, WHAT?? I swear, I feel like Bioware almost tried too hard to make Anders seem like he was completely bipolar/split personality even. (I believe Hepler said something about how she wrote him with a bipolar person in mind.) Throughout the course of the game he constantly is contradicting himself and being pretty hypocritical concerning other people's viewpoints. It makes no sense to me how he can contradict himself at every turn. I just don't see the reasoning for writing him like that, I guess. It makes it seem like he truly has no idea what he is even saying, surely he would be smart enough to realize that the very things he sometimes condemns are a lot like how he acts/things he's previously said..?

I'm not just talking about that one line, since I wouldn't say that the whole "mage freedom" movement is an abstract ideal but I would say that in a way Ander's idea of justice is very abstract. Reminds me of something Isabela says to him actually...

* Anders: There is justice in the world.
* Isabela: Is there? You want to free the mages. Let's say you do, but to get there, you kill a bunch of innocent people.
* Isabela: What about them? Don't they then deserve justice?
* Anders: Yes.
* Isabela: And then what? Where does it end?
* Isabela: It's like a bar brawl. People are continuously pulled into the fray, and nobody remembers why it started.
* Isabela: Justice is an idea. It makes sense in a world of ideas, but not in our world.

I'm just curious why there are so many different points in the game where Anders says things like this. Another glaring hypocrisy is when he gets upset about Hawke/Fenris relationship and says that Fenris has let "one bad experience color his whole life". I would say you could apply that to Anders as well. It's just a little odd to me..there are a lot of smaller examples of this throughout the game too.

Well, the Qun is arguably a lot more abstract than the imprisonment and poor treatment of mages, first of all. They believe that everyone has their place in the world and they must live in the station they were born to. We don't know how they determine who was born to be warriors or who was born to be farmers, but it sounds like some kind of caste system, and that's pretty arbitrary and abstract. If they don't believe the Qun ideals, well, then they leave. The mages don't choose to be born as mages, and they are being imprisoned ostensibly to protect everyone else and themselves, and yet they suffer all kinds of abuse and, well, they just can't go anywhere. They can't choose to say, "Hey, y'know, this Andraste thing that she says, I don't believe it. So I'd like to pass on all this crap."

Buuuuuut... rereading your post you weren't saying that mage freedom was abstract... so... *COUGH* I'd erase that but I like what I wrote so I'll leave it alone for posterity.

I'm not sure though why you picked that particular piece of banter to show that Anders is a hypocrite. He basically is acknowledging that if he himself commits an injustice that the victims would deserve retribution. This is just foreshadowing of his little "I'm-sitting-on-a-box-and-expect-you-to-kill-me" moment. His belief in justice applies to himself, as well. He never says anywhere that he is unwilling to commit injustices in the name of his overriding cause, but justice must be served.

One thing I do think he's hypocritical of is his just absolute loathing for Fenris. I partly think this is because Fenris is like Anders used to be. Just running away to save himself and being selfish about it, and not taking it upon himself to do something massive and crazy like liberate all the slaves in Thedas. Anders is trying to liberate mages and I'm sure he's thinking "IF YOU THINK SLAVERY IS SO BAD THEN FRICKEN DO SOMETHING!!!11!!!1one!!1" I'm sure it drives him absolutely bonkers that Fenris doesn't seem to care outside of "slavery = bad" and goes on and on about what was done to him.

This is also where the bipolar comes in, too. He is completely, blindly irrational when it comes to Fenris. (I mean, I can be irrational about things, but I have the benefit of being self-aware enough to recognize it.) All of his other opinions and his ideals go out the door when Fenris is concerned. Anything that bodes ill for Fenris, he approves of. Like sending him back with Danarius. Like, what!?!! You approve of that! But Anders might also take the stance that Fenris isn't doing anything for other slaves, so what good is he free? His own warped bipolar reality probably puts that action as serving justice on Fenris for... whatever, rather than just pettiness. I'm sure he's able to come up with something Fenris has done that deserves going back to slavery. It's not like Fenris fights for his freedom once he loses Hawke's support.

Overall, I totally believe his bipolar mood swings and his occasionally irrational points of view. I don't think they tried "too hard" at all. I think it's just right.

Also, his bipolar tendencies are what make it difficult for him to carry on in rational arguments about mages with Fenris. Fenris is so unshakable in his dislike of mages, and he is more able to be rational about things in general. Anders just can't believe that someone would be that cold and indifferent to another group of people who are basically slaves. Sure mages in Tevinter are bad, but the mages in Kirkwall have done nothing wrong to deserve their abuse. Maybe this is the injustice that Anders thinks that Fenris should pay for by being sent back with Danarius... He intensely dislikes ALL mages (and he even acknowledges that not all mages in Tevinter are horrible bastards!). He approves of the Circle. He doesn't seem to care that the Circle treats mages like slaves and abuses them. So he deserves to go back and share their lot. ............ But anyway, Anders can't debate things because he gets too emotional and gets flustered and can't keep his opinions/thoughts straight enough to take an argument to anywhere it might start being productive. I know I have a hard time with that. SEE BY MY AIMLESS RAMBLING. *grumble*

Yep if there's anything I can believe in its a bipolar train of thought. And they did his just fine. ^.^;;

Modifié par beckaliz, 18 juillet 2011 - 03:20 .

[SurelyForth]

See, I think Anders can be pretty petty even without Justice's influence. I don't like that he can approve of sending Fenris back with Danarius, but he was also okay with the templars dying when you find him at the Keep in Awakening and I'd say his affection for Fenris is at templar levels.

And the qunari are raised and observed for the first 8 or 12 years of their life and placed in their roles based on that. While they do breed to fill specific roles, it ultimately comes down to aptitude and/or gender (women fill some roles better than men and vice versa). So it isn't completely arbitrary in that respect.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 18 juillet 2011 - 03:46 .

[beckaliz]

Ohh, ok. I see. That's rather pragmatic of them, then, isn't it.

Definitely Anders has his petty and irrational moments. But they're believable.

[Sinaxi]

beckaliz wrote...

I'm not sure though why you picked that particular piece of banter to show that Anders is a hypocrite. He basically is acknowledging that if he himself commits an injustice that the victims would deserve retribution. This is just foreshadowing of his little "I'm-sitting-on-a-box-and-expect-you-to-kill-me" moment. His belief in justice applies to himself, as well. He never says anywhere that he is unwilling to commit injustices in the name of his overriding cause, but justice must be served.

One thing I do think he's hypocritical of is his just absolute loathing for Fenris. I partly think this is because Fenris is like Anders used to be. Just running away to save himself and being selfish about it, and not taking it upon himself to do something massive and crazy like liberate all the slaves in Thedas. Anders is trying to liberate mages and I'm sure he's thinking "IF YOU THINK SLAVERY IS SO BAD THEN FRICKEN DO SOMETHING!!!11!!!1one!!1" I'm sure it drives him absolutely bonkers that Fenris doesn't seem to care outside of "slavery = bad" and goes on and on about what was done to him.

I didn't post that banter as an example of him being hypocritical, I just posted it since when I said I think his ultimate goal of Justice is somewhat abstract that the conversation he had with Isabela reminded me of what I was pointing out. Not that he was being a hypocrite in that particular banter. There are pleeentty of other times in the game where he pulls that off quite well.

Yes, Anders definitely HATES Fenris...his line when you offer Fenris back is like the ultimate ****** line. "Har har, I thought I was the only one thinking that!! :D" even Merrill, who constantly gets crap from Fenris is like AMG NO!!! Does Anders get approval points if you give Fenris back? Haha I am curious about that. Did anyone else notice that Danarius walks like a girl? Freaking creepy...

I really can't think of a good explanation though for all of Ander's blatant hypocrisy, to me it just seems ridiculous at times. I just don't want to immediately go "Oh, let me just blame it on your bipolar-ness." and let him off the hook for it. I mean I understand that's what Hepler based it on, but technically if you look at it from in-game Anders isn't really "bipolar" that's just the real-world reference for it. He constantly goes on and on about him and Justice are one, but to me it almost seems like his personality is completely split sometimes, especially in the beginning of the game. Hepler's short story on him certainly gave me that impression as well, like he is two distinct different people despite the fact that he says they are one and the same. If you were one and the same then why would Justice be nagging you about being in love with Hawke? It's just such an odd situation.

Modifié par Tidra, 18 juillet 2011 - 05:10 .

[maxernst]

Tidra wrote...

beckaliz wrote...

I didn't post that banter as an example of him being hypocritical, I just posted it since when I said I think his ultimate goal of Justice is somewhat abstract that the conversation he had with Isabela reminded me of what I was pointing out. Not that he was being a hypocrite in that particular banter. There are pleeentty of other times in the game where he pulls that off quite well.

Yes, Anders definitely HATES Fenris...his line when you offer Fenris back is like the ultimate ****** line. "Har har, I thought I was the only one thinking that!! :D" even Merrill, who constantly gets crap from Fenris is like AMG NO!!! Does Anders get approval points if you give Fenris back? Haha I am curious about that. Did anyone else notice that Danarius walks like a girl? Freaking creepy...

According to the Wiki, you get +5 friendship from Anders for returning Fenris, get +5 rivalry from Aveline, and +10 rivalry from Merrill, Sebastian, and Varric.  Isabela apparently doesn't care, which surprises me a little bit. 

[BlueMew]

maxernst wrote...

Tidra wrote...

beckaliz wrote...

I didn't post that banter as an example of him being hypocritical, I just posted it since when I said I think his ultimate goal of Justice is somewhat abstract that the conversation he had with Isabela reminded me of what I was pointing out. Not that he was being a hypocrite in that particular banter. There are pleeentty of other times in the game where he pulls that off quite well.

Yes, Anders definitely HATES Fenris...his line when you offer Fenris back is like the ultimate ****** line. "Har har, I thought I was the only one thinking that!! :D" even Merrill, who constantly gets crap from Fenris is like AMG NO!!! Does Anders get approval points if you give Fenris back? Haha I am curious about that. Did anyone else notice that Danarius walks like a girl? Freaking creepy...

According to the Wiki, you get +5 friendship from Anders for returning Fenris, get +5 rivalry from Aveline, and +10 rivalry from Merrill, Sebastian, and Varric.  Isabela apparently doesn't care, which surprises me a little bit. 

To me it does make a certain kind of sense, in a poetic justice (no pun intended) sort of way. "You think some people should be enslaved because of their powers? Well, retry some of that yourself, then." Not terribly mature, maybe, but quite believable.

[Nilfalasiel]

maxernst wrote...

According to the Wiki, you get +5 friendship from Anders for returning Fenris, get +5 rivalry from Aveline, and +10 rivalry from Merrill, Sebastian, and Varric. Isabela apparently doesn't care, which surprises me a little bit. 

FInding him hawt and/or sleeping with him doesn't necessarily mean she cares.

[Heidenreich]

maxernst wrote...

Tidra wrote...

beckaliz wrote...

I didn't post that banter as an example of him being hypocritical, I just posted it since when I said I think his ultimate goal of Justice is somewhat abstract that the conversation he had with Isabela reminded me of what I was pointing out. Not that he was being a hypocrite in that particular banter. There are pleeentty of other times in the game where he pulls that off quite well.

Yes, Anders definitely HATES Fenris...his line when you offer Fenris back is like the ultimate ****** line. "Har har, I thought I was the only one thinking that!! :D" even Merrill, who constantly gets crap from Fenris is like AMG NO!!! Does Anders get approval points if you give Fenris back? Haha I am curious about that. Did anyone else notice that Danarius walks like a girl? Freaking creepy...

According to the Wiki, you get +5 friendship from Anders for returning Fenris, get +5 rivalry from Aveline, and +10 rivalry from Merrill, Sebastian, and Varric.  Isabela apparently doesn't care, which surprises me a little bit. 

It doesn't suprise me. Isabela's taught herself that carring = death. It takes QUITE A LOT for Isabela to get past her walls in order for her to care.. say, oh, I dunno, sacrificing yourself to the Arishok single-handedly, is one of those "REALLY BIG THINGS".

A rivalmanced isabela, at the end of the game, cares.. but most of the time, so long as its not her own hide she's sacrficing, she doesn't give a rats ass. At least to a degree.

That being said, Slavery is one of those few things she's not okay with, so yea I guess I could see how you were suprised to see she doesn't care. Maybe she does, but at that point in the game, you've gone and saved her ass, so she's more inclined to just agree with everything you(hawke) does.

Modifié par Heidenreich, 18 juillet 2011 - 05:52 .