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[Sinaxi]

Nilfalasiel wrote...

maxernst wrote...

According to the Wiki, you get +5 friendship from Anders for returning Fenris, get +5 rivalry from Aveline, and +10 rivalry from Merrill, Sebastian, and Varric. Isabela apparently doesn't care, which surprises me a little bit. 

FInding him hawt and/or sleeping with him doesn't necessarily mean she cares.

Lol yeah, sometimes I feel like they weren't very consistent with her character though. She freed an entire group of slaves that were on her ship, and she also agrees with the fact that Mages shouldn't be trapped in the circle...soo yeahh, who knows. But then she is also fine with letting Castillion have his slave papers back or whatever to get a ship, but she does admit you were right about killing him if you decide to not let that happen. So idk, I would think she would be a little surprised by Hawke suddenly going "lol k, take fenris." Since you don't even gain much from returning him, you certainly gain less than you would have if you had kept him around considering he is a fighter that you can put to good use.

[beckaliz]

Tidra wrote...

beckaliz wrote...

I'm not sure though why you picked that particular piece of banter to show that Anders is a hypocrite. He basically is acknowledging that if he himself commits an injustice that the victims would deserve retribution. This is just foreshadowing of his little "I'm-sitting-on-a-box-and-expect-you-to-kill-me" moment. His belief in justice applies to himself, as well. He never says anywhere that he is unwilling to commit injustices in the name of his overriding cause, but justice must be served.

One thing I do think he's hypocritical of is his just absolute loathing for Fenris. I partly think this is because Fenris is like Anders used to be. Just running away to save himself and being selfish about it, and not taking it upon himself to do something massive and crazy like liberate all the slaves in Thedas. Anders is trying to liberate mages and I'm sure he's thinking "IF YOU THINK SLAVERY IS SO BAD THEN FRICKEN DO SOMETHING!!!11!!!1one!!1" I'm sure it drives him absolutely bonkers that Fenris doesn't seem to care outside of "slavery = bad" and goes on and on about what was done to him.

I didn't post that banter as an example of him being hypocritical, I just posted it since when I said I think his ultimate goal of Justice is somewhat abstract that the conversation he had with Isabela reminded me of what I was pointing out. Not that he was being a hypocrite in that particular banter. There are pleeentty of other times in the game where he pulls that off quite well.

Yes, Anders definitely HATES Fenris...his line when you offer Fenris back is like the ultimate ****** line. "Har har, I thought I was the only one thinking that!! :D" even Merrill, who constantly gets crap from Fenris is like AMG NO!!! Does Anders get approval points if you give Fenris back? Haha I am curious about that. Did anyone else notice that Danarius walks like a girl? Freaking creepy...

I really can't think of a good explanation though for all of Ander's blatant hypocrisy, to me it just seems ridiculous at times. I just don't want to immediately go "Oh, let me just blame it on your bipolar-ness." and let him off the hook for it. I mean I understand that's what Hepler based it on, but technically if you look at it from in-game Anders isn't really "bipolar" that's just the real-world reference for it. He constantly goes on and on about him and Justice are one, but to me it almost seems like his personality is completely split sometimes, especially in the beginning of the game. Hepler's short story on him certainly gave me that impression as well, like he is two distinct different people despite the fact that he says they are one and the same. If you were one and the same then why would Justice be nagging you about being in love with Hawke? It's just such an odd situation.

I can't think of any more specific examples to discuss, but if you are really interested in understanding him a little better, go ahead and find them for me. ;d I'm lazy. But I'm bipolar myself and I understand him completely. Ha ha ha! So. He makes sense to me. Bring me anything that doesn't make sense to you and I'll... try to rationalize it from an irrational perpsective! lawlz! :innocent:

For example: he doesn't completely understand what happened with him and Justice. Nobody can. So I would take anything he says about it with a grain of salt. He's groping around for understanding, and he's saying these things to other people to bounce his ideas off of them to try and get a fix on his own reality. But nobody else knows either so it's a big problem for him. The easiest thing for him to do, for his own peace of mind, is to decide that he and Justice are one, because it eases the pressure in his mind. So much pressure! He tries to be different in rivalmance, and then when he set us up the bomb he expresses what a relief it is to let a spirit fulfill its purpose. Can you imagine how tiring it would be for him to constantly fight that? For years upon years? In the beginning he feels that Justice is gone because when Justice thinks things, he feels it as his own thoughts, and he's confused. Then, after years and years, it's so much easier to not put the effort into trying to distinguish one from the other. And he's not going to change Justice's mind. Justice is "eternal", an unshakable pursuit. Anders himself must change to come in line with that ideal if he is to have any inner peace at all.

I'm not saying he should be let off the hook for anything, but he does make sense to me.

Modifié par beckaliz, 18 juillet 2011 - 06:05 .

[maxernst]

Tidra wrote...

Nilfalasiel wrote...

maxernst wrote...

According to the Wiki, you get +5 friendship from Anders for returning Fenris, get +5 rivalry from Aveline, and +10 rivalry from Merrill, Sebastian, and Varric. Isabela apparently doesn't care, which surprises me a little bit. 

FInding him hawt and/or sleeping with him doesn't necessarily mean she cares.

Lol yeah, sometimes I feel like they weren't very consistent with her character though. She freed an entire group of slaves that were on her ship, and she also agrees with the fact that Mages shouldn't be trapped in the circle...soo yeahh, who knows. But then she is also fine with letting Castillion have his slave papers back or whatever to get a ship, but she does admit you were right about killing him if you decide to not let that happen. So idk, I would think she would be a little surprised by Hawke suddenly going "lol k, take fenris." Since you don't even gain much from returning him, you certainly gain less than you would have if you had kept him around considering he is a fighter that you can put to good use.

I think the disapprovals are awfully mild, really.  If I were one of Hawke's companions, even if I hated Fenris, my first thought would be, "if this guy's willing to sell someone who has fought at his side so cheaply, who's to say I won't be next?"  I'd have a really hard time trusting Hawke after that.  Although I guess in Isabela's case, you have had the chance to sell her out and didn't.

It always bothered me in DA:O that nobody reacts to your Landsmeet decisions, even if you allow Anora to execute Alistair.

[Nilfalasiel]

maxernst wrote...

I think the disapprovals are awfully mild, really.  If I were one of Hawke's companions, even if I hated Fenris, my first thought would be, "if this guy's willing to sell someone who has fought at his side so cheaply, who's to say I won't be next?"  I'd have a really hard time trusting Hawke after that.  Although I guess in Isabela's case, you have had the chance to sell her out and didn't.

They could be telling themselves "naaaah, Hawke wouldn't do that to me, he wubs me too much".

Come to think of it, you only lose 10 approval with Oghren for killing Branka (and can gain 7 points back by letting him ask Caridin for a favour afterwards), so I guess -10 isn't considered all that mild. Especially since none of the DA2 folks have much of a personal connection with Fenris (...except unromanced Isabela, ironically enough).

[maxernst]

Nilfalasiel wrote...

maxernst wrote...

I think the disapprovals are awfully mild, really.  If I were one of Hawke's companions, even if I hated Fenris, my first thought would be, "if this guy's willing to sell someone who has fought at his side so cheaply, who's to say I won't be next?"  I'd have a really hard time trusting Hawke after that.  Although I guess in Isabela's case, you have had the chance to sell her out and didn't.

They could be telling themselves "naaaah, Hawke wouldn't do that to me, he wubs me too much".

Come to think of it, you only lose 10 approval with Oghren for killing Branka (and can gain 7 points back by letting him ask Caridin for a favour afterwards), so I guess -10 isn't considered all that mild. Especially since none of the DA2 folks have much of a personal connection with Fenris (...except unromanced Isabela, ironically enough).

The approval swings in DA2 tend to be bigger than the ones in DA:O, though, because they always change by at least 5.  20's are pretty common, whereas 10 was a big swing for DA:O.

[beckaliz]

Picture Anders doing this. Ahahaahahah *SNORT* While working on his manifesto.

Damn that Howden.

Modifié par beckaliz, 18 juillet 2011 - 06:38 .

[Nilfalasiel]

maxernst wrote...

The approval swings in DA2 tend to be bigger than the ones in DA:O, though, because they always change by at least 5.  20's are pretty common, whereas 10 was a big swing for DA:O.

Fair enough. In that case, I'll go with "they just don't have much of a connection with Fenris". Even though it does seem pretty damn callous.

[Sinaxi]

Hmm, now off the top of my head I can't think of more examples. Mostly I was just referring to the little side comments he makes, and of course his absolute hate for Fenris that he's happy when you send him back to slavery lol.

It is sad, because in the beginning of the game he is harping on Mages and getting upset by the fact that they turn to blood magic, or that they start turning everything to violence and he says something along the lines of how no one will ever look at mages any differently if all mages confirm exactly what people fear. Though he says I think at one point that he can't defend mages either being the way he is. But he just degenerates so much more into "justice" and pretty much does exactly what he condemns earlier in the game. But I just suppose he realizes there really is no other way. I'm not really comparing that to him being "bipolar" since he does change over the years, a lot. He is much angrier in Act 3, which I think has a lot to do with Justice being in his head for so long but also because he has become completely fed up with the entire situation and decides he will do something about it no matter the cost now.

But, lol to remark on his seriousness in Act 3 I also love this party banter. Poor Varric.

* Varric: So, the knight-commander... Boiling in oil? That one never gets old.
* Anders: This is past time for joking.
* Varric: I'm helping you indulge in elaborate revenge fantasies. I think it's good for you.
* Anders: Meredith will die. Do not doubt that.
* Varric: Go away, Justice. Can Anders come out and play?
* Anders: Stop.
* Varric: You are no fun anymore.

Can Anders come out and play? And maybe show Hawke that lightning thing he did at the Pearl?!

[Patriciachr34]

I might understand selling Fenris out if your Hawke was an utter b*st*rd and had Fenris at full rivalry. However, this makes no sense even at mild rivalry or friendship. Interestingly enough, I actually can understand the dynamic between both Fenris and Anders as well as a rivalry relationship.

I have this "friend" I've known for over twenty years. We definitely do not agree and many points, but we respect each other. Although we are not "friends" we have many of the same friends and get along well on a social level.

I also have a friend (a former roommate) whose views over the years have become so polarized and so extreme that he cannot see any other perspective. This guy reminds me a lot of Anders when it comes to perspective (or lack thereof). I usually breathe a sigh of relief when he turns down my b-bcue invitations simply because his views can be difficult to tolerate.

I will say that my rival friend and my Anders-esque friend would be gleeful if the other fell off the earth. Their views are just too polarized and opposite for there ever to be mutual respect let alone friendship. Just as an FYI, by my own design, these two are NEVER in the same room or attend the same event, ever.

[Evilnor]

SurelyForth wrote...
And the qunari are raised and observed for the first 8 or 12 years of their life and placed in their roles based on that. While they do breed to fill specific roles, it ultimately comes down to aptitude and/or gender (women fill some roles better than men and vice versa). So it isn't completely arbitrary in that respect.

This bit about the qunari makes me wonder: how do they choose roles for the non-oxmen qunari converts (viddithari?) like those elves in act 2?  Do they get to choose for themselves what they want to do, even though their potential earlier in life may not have been suited to it?  Does someone else observe them for a few years to see their personality traits?  Or is it some written multiple choice test like those career-placement things you have to fill out at one point in high school?  I don't think much is said about converts to the qun other than they're welcomed.

Makes me fear for any mage that would be stupid/desperate enough to attempt converting to the qun . . .

Modifié par Evilnor, 18 juillet 2011 - 07:00 .

[maxernst]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Eh. What Anders says when you turn Fenris over to Danarius is crappy, but to be fair I doubt Fenris would say anything less crappy if you tried turning over Anders or Merrill to the templars.

Probably, but Fenris' approval would stem from the fact that he genuinely sees Anders and Merrill as dangerous (unlike Hawke/Bethany who he sees as exceptions to the rule), not on a particular desire for them to suffer, whereas Anders' approval is based on personal animus. 

[Sinaxi]

Does anyone else think it would just be great if Fenris and Anders were in a love triangle with Hawke and pretty much exploded on each other one day? It would be like the battle of the pretty blue glowing men, except very scary.

Maybe that's just me and my overactive imagination. I could totally see it happening though.

[Jean]

I prefer the love triangle only if you pursued Fenris then went on to Anders afterwards. Even then, Fenris isn't as confrontational about it as Anders.

Modifié par Batteries, 18 juillet 2011 - 07:33 .

[Sinaxi]

I can think of several reasons that would be pretty valid for a confrontational argument to occur that had something to do with Hawke, and yes I did mean it in the way of the love triangle where you are with Fenris first and then rebound with Anders. It's obvious Fenris continues to care about Hawke despite that.

But I won't go into detail on these hypothetical situations in my head, otherwise I'd feel like I was in the makings of a fanfic lol, but I could see it happening one day down the road. They aren't exactly best buddies. It's an entertaining notion nonetheless to me hehe.

[Sinaxi]

That's where I'm coming from though, Fenris's protective side over Hawke. He doesn't say "or else" he actually tells Anders he will kill him if he ever hurts her lol. Just my personal opinion but I really do believe Fenris whole-heartedly when he tells Anders that. He gets fairly angry too when Anders accuses him of not knowing what love means..says uhh "Do not bare your heart to me, mage, unless you would have me rip it out." But yes, I do believe he is angry at himself for how the relationship went which is another reason why he probably tells Anders he better not hurt her..since he pretty much already hurt Hawke himself.

I'm also not sure why it's automatically assumed Fenris would be the one to start his confrontation. Anders can be pretty jealous sometimes, and also slightly paranoid. In his worse moods when Justice is more prone to coming out I could see him potentially get upset over any residual feelings Hawke might feel for Fenris. I know in their rivalry romance Justice comes out at one point and pretty much tells Hawke off. Fenris doesn't TRUST Anders, that's the big thing. He looks on Anders as being an abomination pretty much. So why would he trust Anders to never hurt Hawke? Mentally or physically. Not that I'm saying Anders ever would, but it's just something interesting to consider. He isn't exactly the most stable person in the world. It doesn't have to be about Fenris necessarily trying to "win" Hawke back. I don't really know if Anders wouldn't sacrifice Hawke to further his goal. :/

This is also coming from a perspective where there is more going on than just what you see in the game, which is why I said I wouldn't want to go into detail since it would end up sounding more like a fanfic lol. But regardless I think it's an interesting idea, and I think it's quite plausible. Maybe that's just my opinion though.

Modifié par Tidra, 18 juillet 2011 - 08:45 .

[YamiSnuffles]

Instead of contributing to whatever discussion is going on now, I offer some art.


Correm Hawke and Anders for beckaliz

[ademska]

Tidra wrote...

That's where I'm coming from though, Fenris's protective side over Hawke. He doesn't say "or else" he actually tells Anders he will kill him if he ever hurts her lol. Just my personal opinion but I really do believe Fenris whole-heartedly when he tells Anders that. He gets fairly angry too when Anders accuses him of not knowing what love means..says uhh "Do not bare your heart to me, mage, unless you would have me rip it out." But yes, I do believe he is angry at himself for how the relationship went.

I'm also not sure why it's automatically assumed Fenris would be the one to start his confrontation. Anders can be pretty jealous sometimes, and also slightly paranoid. In his worse moods when Justice is more prone to coming out I could see him potentially get upset over any residual feelings Hawke might feel for Fenris. I know in their rivalry romance Justice comes out at one point and pretty much tells Hawke off. Fenris doesn't TRUST Anders, that's the big thing. He looks on Anders as being an abomination pretty much. So why would he trust Anders to never hurt Hawke? Mentally or physically. Not that I'm saying Anders ever would, but it's just something interesting to consider. He isn't exactly the most stable person in the world. It doesn't have to be about Fenris necessarily trying to "win" Hawke back. I don't really know if Anders wouldn't sacrifice Hawke to further his goal. :/

you make some good points about fenris' characterization, but that bolded part is where i draw the line. the entire point of his lie in the justice quest is to protect hawke, and he states explicitly that the possibility of hawke being complicit in the chantry explosion is actually worse than hawke preventing anders from doing it at all.

anders is messed up, yeah, but what people tend to forget is that part of that is his steadfast dedication to and love for hawke.  the only situation where anders can ever turn on hawke is if hawke commits what must, in anders' eyes, be the ultimate betrayal, and raises his/her sword against innocent mages during the RoA. but at that point, hawke isn't a sacrifice to further his goal; if hawke sides with the templars, he/she's become part of the oppressive system, and taking hawke down becomes the goal.

Modifié par ademska, 18 juillet 2011 - 08:56 .

[YamiSnuffles]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

That is one epic drunkface, Yami

Haha, thanks. I'm sure he got some of the good stuff from Fenris.

[Giggles_Manically]

ademska wrote...

Tidra wrote...

That's where I'm coming from though, Fenris's protective side over Hawke. He doesn't say "or else" he actually tells Anders he will kill him if he ever hurts her lol. Just my personal opinion but I really do believe Fenris whole-heartedly when he tells Anders that. He gets fairly angry too when Anders accuses him of not knowing what love means..says uhh "Do not bare your heart to me, mage, unless you would have me rip it out." But yes, I do believe he is angry at himself for how the relationship went.

I'm also not sure why it's automatically assumed Fenris would be the one to start his confrontation. Anders can be pretty jealous sometimes, and also slightly paranoid. In his worse moods when Justice is more prone to coming out I could see him potentially get upset over any residual feelings Hawke might feel for Fenris. I know in their rivalry romance Justice comes out at one point and pretty much tells Hawke off. Fenris doesn't TRUST Anders, that's the big thing. He looks on Anders as being an abomination pretty much. So why would he trust Anders to never hurt Hawke? Mentally or physically. Not that I'm saying Anders ever would, but it's just something interesting to consider. He isn't exactly the most stable person in the world. It doesn't have to be about Fenris necessarily trying to "win" Hawke back. I don't really know if Anders wouldn't sacrifice Hawke to further his goal. :/

you make some good points about fenris' characterization, but that bolded part is where i draw the line. the entire point of his lie in the justice quest is to protect hawke, and he states explicitly that the possibility of hawke being complicit in the chantry explosion is actually worse than hawke preventing anders from doing it at all.

anders is messed up, yeah, but what people tend to forget is that part of that is his steadfast dedication to and love for hawke.  the only situation where anders can ever turn on hawke is if hawke commits what must, in anders' eyes, be the ultimate betrayal, and raises his/her sword against innocent mages during the RoA. but at that point, hawke isn't a sacrifice to further his goal; if hawke sides with the templars, he/she's become part of the oppressive system, and taking hawke down becomes the goal.

I think if you rival him its far more that he fears Hawke would try and stop him then Hawke being put a risk.
Also I can recall a video of him saying: "There is no one I would not sacrifice" or something close to that.

I figure that includes Hawke really, since he did not rule him/her out in any way. 

[Sinaxi]

ademska wrote...

you make some good points about fenris' characterization, but that bolded part is where i draw the line. the entire point of his lie in the justice quest is to protect hawke, and he states explicitly that the possibility of hawke being complicit in the chantry explosion is actually worse than hawke preventing anders from doing it at all.

anders is messed up, yeah, but what people tend to forget is that part of that is his steadfast dedication to and love for hawke.  the only situation where anders can ever turn on hawke is if hawke commits what must, in anders' eyes, be the ultimate betrayal, and raises his/her sword against innocent mages during the RoA. but at that point, hawke isn't a sacrifice to further his goal; if hawke sides with the templars, he/she's become part of the oppressive system, and taking hawke down becomes the goal.

I actually edited my post to add that one line since I was curious to see what the response would be. I do agree with you though, now that you put it like that. However, like the person above me wrote he does say that to Hawke during that rivalmance I think...pretty much says he will sacrifice anything or anyone so it just is a bit worrisome that he puts it so bluntly like that. I think it's more the fact that pretty much the goal will always be more important to Anders than Hawke will be..at least it seems that way. Not that he wouldn't protect her, but when I say sacrifice it doesn't have to mean physical sacrifice but even if he pretty much just gave up on their relationship or something to concentrate completely on his agenda. You don't think it's possible it would ever come to that?

But I'm glad you think I raised some interesting points about the whole Fenris/Anders dynamic concerning Hawke. It's entertaining to think about lol.