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[Amondra]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

ademska wrote...

Tidra wrote...

That's where I'm coming from though, Fenris's protective side over Hawke. He doesn't say "or else" he actually tells Anders he will kill him if he ever hurts her lol. Just my personal opinion but I really do believe Fenris whole-heartedly when he tells Anders that. He gets fairly angry too when Anders accuses him of not knowing what love means..says uhh "Do not bare your heart to me, mage, unless you would have me rip it out." But yes, I do believe he is angry at himself for how the relationship went.

I'm also not sure why it's automatically assumed Fenris would be the one to start his confrontation. Anders can be pretty jealous sometimes, and also slightly paranoid. In his worse moods when Justice is more prone to coming out I could see him potentially get upset over any residual feelings Hawke might feel for Fenris. I know in their rivalry romance Justice comes out at one point and pretty much tells Hawke off. Fenris doesn't TRUST Anders, that's the big thing. He looks on Anders as being an abomination pretty much. So why would he trust Anders to never hurt Hawke? Mentally or physically. Not that I'm saying Anders ever would, but it's just something interesting to consider. He isn't exactly the most stable person in the world. It doesn't have to be about Fenris necessarily trying to "win" Hawke back. I don't really know if Anders wouldn't sacrifice Hawke to further his goal. :/

you make some good points about fenris' characterization, but that bolded part is where i draw the line. the entire point of his lie in the justice quest is to protect hawke, and he states explicitly that the possibility of hawke being complicit in the chantry explosion is actually worse than hawke preventing anders from doing it at all.

anders is messed up, yeah, but what people tend to forget is that part of that is his steadfast dedication to and love for hawke.  the only situation where anders can ever turn on hawke is if hawke commits what must, in anders' eyes, be the ultimate betrayal, and raises his/her sword against innocent mages during the RoA. but at that point, hawke isn't a sacrifice to further his goal; if hawke sides with the templars, he/she's become part of the oppressive system, and taking hawke down becomes the goal.

I think if you rival him its far more that he fears Hawke would try and stop him then Hawke being put a risk.
Also I can recall a video of him saying: "There is no one I would not sacrifice" or something close to that.

I figure that includes Hawke really, since he did not rule him/her out in any way. 

If you rival Anders he does say something like that.  I look at rival Anders and Friend Anders as two different universes, if you freind him, he wouldn't sacrifice you no matter.  If you rival him, he would think about it, or possibly do it.  So in that sense Anders 'loyalty' (I don't knw if that is the right word to use) is really based on where he sits on the two.

edit for top:

Modifié par Amondra, 18 juillet 2011 - 09:43 .

[beckaliz]

Yaaaaaay! *clapclap* Thank you Yami! 

And you're right. XD Correm is good buddies with Fenris so I'm sure he got some of the good stuff from him. Hehehe.

[berelinde]

Giggles_Manically wrote...
<snip>

I think if you rival him its far more that he fears Hawke would try and stop him then Hawke being put a risk.
Also I can recall a video of him saying: "There is no one I would not sacrifice" or something close to that.

I figure that includes Hawke really, since he did not rule him/her out in any way. 

When Anders says that there is no one he would not sacrifice, he probably does mean to include Hawke, since he will attack friend!Hawke for failing to side with the mages, but he is not afraid that Hawke will try to stop him. He already knows that nothing can. Hawke can refuse to help him at all, or even throw him out of the party, and he will go through with it anyway. Whether he knows this on a conscious level or not is unclear. As for rival!Hawke, he doesn't say that he fears Hawke would try to stop him because Hawke already did try. He says that he tried to undo what he had done but Justice wouldn't let him. I don't know whether he is anthropomorphizing Justice as a strawman for his own conscience or whether he is speaking the literal truth here. He does say that he is having more blackouts, on the rivalry path.

And I've really got to ask Yami to accept a commission. I really must. Every Anders couple I see is more adorable than the last.

[maxernst]

ademska wrote...

Tidra wrote...

That's where I'm coming from though, Fenris's protective side over Hawke. He doesn't say "or else" he actually tells Anders he will kill him if he ever hurts her lol. Just my personal opinion but I really do believe Fenris whole-heartedly when he tells Anders that. He gets fairly angry too when Anders accuses him of not knowing what love means..says uhh "Do not bare your heart to me, mage, unless you would have me rip it out." But yes, I do believe he is angry at himself for how the relationship went.

I'm also not sure why it's automatically assumed Fenris would be the one to start his confrontation. Anders can be pretty jealous sometimes, and also slightly paranoid. In his worse moods when Justice is more prone to coming out I could see him potentially get upset over any residual feelings Hawke might feel for Fenris. I know in their rivalry romance Justice comes out at one point and pretty much tells Hawke off. Fenris doesn't TRUST Anders, that's the big thing. He looks on Anders as being an abomination pretty much. So why would he trust Anders to never hurt Hawke? Mentally or physically. Not that I'm saying Anders ever would, but it's just something interesting to consider. He isn't exactly the most stable person in the world. It doesn't have to be about Fenris necessarily trying to "win" Hawke back. I don't really know if Anders wouldn't sacrifice Hawke to further his goal. :/

you make some good points about fenris' characterization, but that bolded part is where i draw the line. the entire point of his lie in the justice quest is to protect hawke, and he states explicitly that the possibility of hawke being complicit in the chantry explosion is actually worse than hawke preventing anders from doing it at all.

That's what he says the point is, but what the lie really does is make an unwitting accomplice.  He's still complicit, if he helps Anders.  Besides, If Hawke sides with the mages, you can bet Meredith (and probably lots of people in Kirkwall) think he was in on it, especially if he doesn't kill Anders.  And he is willing to sacrifice Hawke to further his goal...he is absolutely trying to force Hawke to put his life on the line to protect the mages.

[Amondra]

maxernst wrote...

ademska wrote...

Tidra wrote...

That's where I'm coming from though, Fenris's protective side over Hawke. He doesn't say "or else" he actually tells Anders he will kill him if he ever hurts her lol. Just my personal opinion but I really do believe Fenris whole-heartedly when he tells Anders that. He gets fairly angry too when Anders accuses him of not knowing what love means..says uhh "Do not bare your heart to me, mage, unless you would have me rip it out." But yes, I do believe he is angry at himself for how the relationship went.

I'm also not sure why it's automatically assumed Fenris would be the one to start his confrontation. Anders can be pretty jealous sometimes, and also slightly paranoid. In his worse moods when Justice is more prone to coming out I could see him potentially get upset over any residual feelings Hawke might feel for Fenris. I know in their rivalry romance Justice comes out at one point and pretty much tells Hawke off. Fenris doesn't TRUST Anders, that's the big thing. He looks on Anders as being an abomination pretty much. So why would he trust Anders to never hurt Hawke? Mentally or physically. Not that I'm saying Anders ever would, but it's just something interesting to consider. He isn't exactly the most stable person in the world. It doesn't have to be about Fenris necessarily trying to "win" Hawke back. I don't really know if Anders wouldn't sacrifice Hawke to further his goal. :/

you make some good points about fenris' characterization, but that bolded part is where i draw the line. the entire point of his lie in the justice quest is to protect hawke, and he states explicitly that the possibility of hawke being complicit in the chantry explosion is actually worse than hawke preventing anders from doing it at all.

That's what he says the point is, but what the lie really does is make an unwitting accomplice.  He's still complicit, if he helps Anders.  Besides, If Hawke sides with the mages, you can bet Meredith (and probably lots of people in Kirkwall) think he was in on it, especially if he doesn't kill Anders.  And he is willing to sacrifice Hawke to further his goal...he is absolutely trying to force Hawke to put his life on the line to protect the mages.

But isn't he no matter what path, ready to die? Whether or not it is for justice of those who die, or because you got him to side with the Templars and Justice is trying to force control now?  Anders was ready to die no matter, so he was expecting Hawke to kill, which would clear Hawke.  He wasn't making Hawke protect the mages, Hawke can just as easily side with the Templars.  All he did was force a war, Hawke sparing him and siding with the mages is dependent on Hawke(you).

[berelinde]

maxernst wrote...

ademska wrote...

Tidra wrote...

That's where I'm coming from though, Fenris's protective side over Hawke. He doesn't say "or else" he actually tells Anders he will kill him if he ever hurts her lol. Just my personal opinion but I really do believe Fenris whole-heartedly when he tells Anders that. He gets fairly angry too when Anders accuses him of not knowing what love means..says uhh "Do not bare your heart to me, mage, unless you would have me rip it out." But yes, I do believe he is angry at himself for how the relationship went.

I'm also not sure why it's automatically assumed Fenris would be the one to start his confrontation. Anders can be pretty jealous sometimes, and also slightly paranoid. In his worse moods when Justice is more prone to coming out I could see him potentially get upset over any residual feelings Hawke might feel for Fenris. I know in their rivalry romance Justice comes out at one point and pretty much tells Hawke off. Fenris doesn't TRUST Anders, that's the big thing. He looks on Anders as being an abomination pretty much. So why would he trust Anders to never hurt Hawke? Mentally or physically. Not that I'm saying Anders ever would, but it's just something interesting to consider. He isn't exactly the most stable person in the world. It doesn't have to be about Fenris necessarily trying to "win" Hawke back. I don't really know if Anders wouldn't sacrifice Hawke to further his goal. :/

you make some good points about fenris' characterization, but that bolded part is where i draw the line. the entire point of his lie in the justice quest is to protect hawke, and he states explicitly that the possibility of hawke being complicit in the chantry explosion is actually worse than hawke preventing anders from doing it at all.

That's what he says the point is, but what the lie really does is make an unwitting accomplice.  He's still complicit, if he helps Anders.  Besides, If Hawke sides with the mages, you can bet Meredith (and probably lots of people in Kirkwall) think he was in on it, especially if he doesn't kill Anders.  And he is willing to sacrifice Hawke to further his goal...he is absolutely trying to force Hawke to put his life on the line to protect the mages.

Anders does not assume that Hawke will take his side. Since he plans to be dead, that's kind of irrelevant. And no one, not even Meredith, *does* blame Hawke for being an accomplice. Well, Sebastian, but Sebastian says that whether Hawke sides with the templars or the mages. He doesn't care who Hawke sides with, as long as Anders dies. As for what history will say, no one ever knows how that will turn out.

[ademska]

Tidra wrote...

I actually edited my post to add that one line since I was curious to see what the response would be. I do agree with you though, now that you put it like that. However, like the person above me wrote he does say that to Hawke during that rivalmance I think...pretty much says he will sacrifice anything or anyone so it just is a bit worrisome that he puts it so bluntly like that. I think it's more the fact that pretty much the goal will always be more important to Anders than Hawke will be..at least it seems that way. Not that he wouldn't protect her, but when I say sacrifice it doesn't have to mean physical sacrifice but even if he pretty much just gave up on their relationship or something to concentrate completely on his agenda. You don't think it's possible it would ever come to that?

But I'm glad you think I raised some interesting points about the whole Fenris/Anders dynamic concerning Hawke. It's entertaining to think about lol.

ha, i have a tendency to... not do the rivalmance ever. i did it twice, once before the ending was fixed (and it was more palatable), and once again when the bug was fixed.  i should specify that my argument above is a friendmance argument, primarily because you asked if anders would 'sacrifice hawke for his goal', and his goal is only his (and not justice's) on the friend path.

on the rivalry path, he's self-loathing, volatile, and suffers blackouts. he blames the chantry entirely on justice, which, given anders' willingness to own up to stuff until that point along with all sorts of rival dialogue, points to justice's goals differing from anders'. justice and his eclipsing influence on the rivalry path are probably much more amenable to sacrificing hawke toward an endgoal, and it's only after justice has subsided post-chantry that anders becomes pliant.

on the friend path, all the stuff i said applies. sacrificing their relationship is not the same as sacrificing hawke or hawke's safety. he does put the relationship on the line with the chantry jenga, but he takes care to maneuver it in a way to keep hawke as far from collateral damage as possible. he's protecting hawke.

if we're talking post-game, which is mage ending by default since anders likely dies in templar ending, then no, i can't at all see anders deliberately putting hawke in harm's way to further his goals. there's no precedent for it, and anders' unfailing love for hawke in all circumstances -- save for hawke actually becoming part of the oppressive institution -- doesn't lead me to believe it'll happen in the future either.

back to the siding against hawke thing, i'll reiterate that unless he's been cowed into submission and self-loathing through rivalry path, his thought processes are so black and white that if hawke sides with the templars, he's inherently siding against innocent mages, subjecting them to an undeserved rite of annulment, and is thus now officially Part Of The Problem.

make no mistake, this is an unhealthy (IF AWESOME) dynamic. i'm not being a hopeless romantic here. part of what makes anders so nutty is his intensity for both mage stuff and hawke stuff.


edit: @maxernst
what they said. anders is shocked if you don't kill him. regardless of whether you do or not, hawke makes the decision to take a side, and even if you spare him, no one blames hawke for the destruction of the chantry. hawke is condemned only in the mage ending and specifically for siding with mages, not for the chantry. anders expects nothing of his actions but war and martyrdom.

Modifié par ademska, 18 juillet 2011 - 10:30 .

[maxernst]

ademska wrote...

Tidra wrote...

if we're talking post-game, which is mage ending by default since anders likely dies in templar ending, then no, i can't at all see anders deliberately putting hawke in harm's way to further his goals. there's no precedent for it, and anders' unfailing love for hawke in all circumstances -- save for hawke actually becoming part of the oppressive institution -- doesn't lead me to believe it'll happen in the future either.

back to the siding against hawke thing, i'll reiterate that unless he's been cowed into submission and self-loathing through rivalry path, his thought processes are so black and white that if hawke sides with the templars, he's inherently siding against innocent mages, subjecting them to an undeserved rite of annulment, and is thus now officially Part Of The Problem.

make no mistake, this is an unhealthy (IF AWESOME) dynamic. i'm not being a hopeless romantic here. part of what makes anders so nutty is his intensity for both mage stuff and hawke stuff.


edit: @maxernst
what they said. anders is shocked if you don't kill him. regardless of whether you do or not, hawke makes the decision to take a side, and even if you spare him, no one blames hawke for the destruction of the chantry. hawke is condemned only in the mage ending and specifically for siding with mages, not for the chantry. anders expects nothing of his actions but war and martyrdom.

Right, and somehow this war isn't going to involve Hawke at all?  If the Divine declares an exalted march against Kirkwall, Hawke isn't in harm's way?  He puts every single person in Kirkwall at risk.    And if you do let him live and side with the Templars, he will try to kill you unless romanced/strong relationship...unlike several of your other companions who may leave your party but will not try and kill you under any circumstances. 

[Sinaxi]

ademska wrote...
ha, i have a tendency to... not do the rivalmance ever. i did it twice, once before the ending was fixed (and it was more palatable), and once again when the bug was fixed.  i should specify that my argument above is a friendmance argument, primarily because you asked if anders would 'sacrifice hawke for his goal', and his goal is only his (and not justice's) on the friend path.

on the rivalry path, he's self-loathing, volatile, and suffers blackouts. he blames the chantry entirely on justice, which, given anders' willingness to own up to stuff until that point along with all sorts of rival dialogue, points to justice's goals differing from anders'. justice and his eclipsing influence on the rivalry path are probably much more amenable to sacrificing hawke toward an endgoal, and it's only after justice has subsided post-chantry that anders becomes pliant.

on the friend path, all the stuff i said applies. sacrificing their relationship is not the same as sacrificing hawke or hawke's safety. he does put the relationship on the line with the chantry jenga, but he takes care to maneuver it in a way to keep hawke as far from collateral damage as possible. he's protecting hawke.

if we're talking post-game, which is mage ending by default since anders likely dies in templar ending, then no, i can't at all see anders deliberately putting hawke in harm's way to further his goals. there's no precedent for it, and anders' unfailing love for hawke in all circumstances -- save for hawke actually becoming part of the oppressive institution -- doesn't lead me to believe it'll happen in the future either.

back to the siding against hawke thing, i'll reiterate that unless he's been cowed into submission and self-loathing through rivalry path, his thought processes are so black and white that if hawke sides with the templars, he's inherently siding against innocent mages, subjecting them to an undeserved rite of annulment, and is thus now officially Part Of The Problem.

make no mistake, this is an unhealthy (IF AWESOME) dynamic. i'm not being a hopeless romantic here. part of what makes anders so nutty is his intensity for both mage stuff and hawke stuff.

edit: @maxernst
what they said. anders is shocked if you don't kill him. regardless of whether you do or not, hawke makes the decision to take a side, and even if you spare him, no one blames hawke for the destruction of the chantry. hawke is condemned only in the mage ending and specifically for siding with mages, not for the chantry. anders expects nothing of his actions but war and martyrdom.

Oh, I never do rivalmances either I was just pointing out that he does say that in rivalmance. I know the relationships are different depending on whether you do friend or rival but Anders still has the qualities that are shown from his rivalmance inside him. I just am not sure I agree with the fact that he would never sacrifice whatever he has with Hawke.

I am mostly talking about post-game though, and I do think it's less likely since you spared him after everything he did and sided with the mages but still...in a way I do look at it from the "hopeless romantic" view...because I guess I just am not sure I see the same devotion to Hawke that Anders has for his cause that you do. It just seems like while Anders does his best to keep you out of blame for this he is still knowingly deceiving you, he even ASKS for your help..which doesn't make any sense if he wanted you as far away from it as possible.

So it just begs the question of how much he really cares about Hawke, a person he's been living with for like what 3 years or something? Maybe I am just a little unclear, actually, from your post are you saying that you do see Anders sacrificing their relationship for his cause but just not Hawke's life/safety? Even though regardless what he did put Hawke in grave danger. She will have to be on the run from now on, especially if she chooses to stay with Anders. Anders really did not give her any choice on the matter, and it's just quite selfish actually since he expects Hawke to kill him but the fact that he even made her have to make that choice is incredibly selfish. What in the world is he expecting her to do? Just stab the person she loves in the back without a second thought on it?

But eh, you are right about it being a very messed up situation. Which is why it's so interesting, the only problem I have with an Anders romance is I just really wonder how devoted he is to Hawke vs. his need for pursuing his cause relentlessly...so that's why I bring up the question of whether or not he would turn his back on her/sacrifice it all. But meh, you sort of know getting involved with him in the first place that he will give up everything to see mages free. It just kind of sucks for Hawke >.< leaves me feeling like sure, he loves Hawke and all..but he doesn't love her enough. Not that I'm saying Hawke is more important than mages freedom, since she isn't but ehh, I guess I don't know how to explain what it is I feel. Haha.

Edit-- Ok, I suppose my real question to you is basically...where do you see all of this "unfailing" love of Anders for Hawke..or his intense devotion to BOTH her and the mages? I do see that he loves her a lot in the game, but once you get around to Act 3 I really start to wonder a lot more about where his head is really at concerning Hawke. If you were truly devoted to someone more than anything you wouldn't be telling them you are going to break their heart, and least of all make them have to choose whether or not to kill you so I would just say it seems like in the long run Hawke will never "win" with Anders, but the mages always will.

Modifié par Tidra, 18 juillet 2011 - 11:16 .

[Amondra]

maxernst wrote...

ademska wrote...

Tidra wrote...

if we're talking post-game, which is mage ending by default since anders likely dies in templar ending, then no, i can't at all see anders deliberately putting hawke in harm's way to further his goals. there's no precedent for it, and anders' unfailing love for hawke in all circumstances -- save for hawke actually becoming part of the oppressive institution -- doesn't lead me to believe it'll happen in the future either.

back to the siding against hawke thing, i'll reiterate that unless he's been cowed into submission and self-loathing through rivalry path, his thought processes are so black and white that if hawke sides with the templars, he's inherently siding against innocent mages, subjecting them to an undeserved rite of annulment, and is thus now officially Part Of The Problem.

make no mistake, this is an unhealthy (IF AWESOME) dynamic. i'm not being a hopeless romantic here. part of what makes anders so nutty is his intensity for both mage stuff and hawke stuff.


edit: @maxernst
what they said. anders is shocked if you don't kill him. regardless of whether you do or not, hawke makes the decision to take a side, and even if you spare him, no one blames hawke for the destruction of the chantry. hawke is condemned only in the mage ending and specifically for siding with mages, not for the chantry. anders expects nothing of his actions but war and martyrdom.

Right, and somehow this war isn't going to involve Hawke at all?  If the Divine declares an exalted march against Kirkwall, Hawke isn't in harm's way?  He puts every single person in Kirkwall at risk.    And if you do let him live and side with the Templars, he will try to kill you unless romanced/strong relationship...unlike several of your other companions who may leave your party but will not try and kill you under any circumstances. 

If you rival him he will side with the Templars.  Also he was a plot tool, his crisis point isn't the same as everyone elses, plain and simple.  Also Hawke flees Kirkwall right after if you side with the mages or at some point if you side with the Templars.  So no matter what, Hawke isn't there...Hawke becomes a target only if sided with the mages, siding with the Templars Hawke just disappears for a rason we don't know of yet.

[ademska]

maxernst wrote...

Right, and somehow this war isn't going to involve Hawke at all?  If the Divine declares an exalted march against Kirkwall, Hawke isn't in harm's way?  He puts every single person in Kirkwall at risk.    And if you do let him live and side with the Templars, he will try to kill you unless romanced/strong relationship...unlike several of your other companions who may leave your party but will not try and kill you under any circumstances. 

exalted marches aren't total war, and land wars don't by default kill everyone in their path. if hawke wants to lay low, he/she very well could.

this is beside the point, though. thrusting the world into war is not a direct act of sacrificing hawke's safety to further his own goals. if hawke makes choices that put him/her in the path of war, that's on hawke. i said anders attempted to keep hawke as far from the collateral damage of the chantry as possible. he explicitly didn't want blame hoisted onto hawke. anders is not making a conscious decision to harm hawke, no matter the long-term consequences, and that is the entire point.


to the templar ending, i've said it like twice now, but third time's the charm:

"back to the siding against hawke thing, i'll reiterate that unless he's been cowed into submission and self-loathing through rivalry path, his thought processes are so black and white that if hawke sides with the templars, he's inherently siding against innocent mages, subjecting them to an undeserved rite of annulment, and is thus now officially Part Of The Problem."
in case it wasn't clear, the above paragraph is written POV. hawke's become part of the institution itself, instead of just the occasional defender of it, at least the way anders sees it. the foil to this is fenris, the only other character whose views are so binary, and he takes similar aggressive action against hawke.

at that point, it's no longer sacrificing hawke to achieve his goals, because sacrifice implies that they have a relationship that is anything other than enemy. in this one circumstance, and no other, anders can bring himself to consciously do harm to hawke.

even then, that's up for debate. the entire point of the rivalry path is that anders and justice as considerably more separate than on friend path. because anders will only side with the templars when at full rivalry, thus at the maximum disparity between justice/anders, i'd argue that the person who takes arms against hawke is janders, and only an anders who's retained as much individuality as possible will refrain from trying to kill hawke.

Modifié par ademska, 18 juillet 2011 - 11:18 .

[SurelyForth]

@Tidra

How was Anders supposed to know that Hawke would be the one to sentence him to death? He probably assumed that Meredith, as Knight-Commander and acting Viscount of Kirkwall, would either execute him on the spot or arrest him. While he might have guessed that he would be killed in front of Hawke, he couldn't have predicted that Meredith would walk away and leave his fate in Hawke's hands.

Which...makes very little sense, really.

[Sinaxi]

Lol, yeah I sort of forget about that since the game gives you control of that choice..which doesn't make any sense. I actually said that in a thread earlier, I made a joke about how Meredith flips out and is like "KILL THEM, KILL THEM ALL! Oh, hey, Hawke can you take care of the guy who actually started all of this while I kill all the mages? kthxbai" Totally makes no sense, but the way he worded his dialogue just made me feel like he expected I was going to have to make the choice I guess.

But, as far as the other things I said I still wonder how much Anders actually loves Hawke when compared to his cause. I just suppose I don't quite see him as being devoted to both the mages and Hawke equally or even anywhere on the same page really.

[Evilnor]

Tidra wrote...

But, as far as the other things I said I still wonder how much Anders actually loves Hawke when compared to his cause. I just suppose I don't quite see him as being devoted to both the mages and Hawke equally or even anywhere on the same page really.

He basically says Hawke will always be second place.  Something about Hawke is the most important thing in his life, but some things are more important than his life.  If it was just a choice between his own death and Hawke's, he'd choose his own, but between Hawke and his cause, the cause comes first.

Modifié par Evilnor, 19 juillet 2011 - 12:56 .

[ademska]

Evilnor wrote...

He basically says Hawke will always be second place.  Something about Hawke is the most important thing in his life, but some things are more important than his life.  If it was just a choice between his own death and Hawke's, he'd choose his own, but between Hawke and his cause, the cause comes first.

bingo.

this is perfect.

[maxernst]

ademska wrote...


to the templar ending, i've said it like twice now, but third time's the charm:

"back to the siding against hawke thing, i'll reiterate that unless he's been cowed into submission and self-loathing through rivalry path, his thought processes are so black and white that if hawke sides with the templars, he's inherently siding against innocent mages, subjecting them to an undeserved rite of annulment, and is thus now officially Part Of The Problem."
in case it wasn't clear, the above paragraph is written POV. hawke's become part of the institution itself, instead of just the occasional defender of it, at least the way anders sees it. the foil to this is fenris, the only other character whose views are so binary, and he takes similar aggressive action against hawke.

at that point, it's no longer sacrificing hawke to achieve his goals, because sacrifice implies that they have a relationship that is anything other than enemy. in this one circumstance, and no other, anders can bring himself to consciously do harm to hawke.

No, it;'s simply killing Hawke to achieve his goals.  So Anders supposedly undying  love can clearly die pretty quickly when it comes in conflict with the need for mage freedom.  Unlike, say, Aveline who will not fight Hawke, even when it goes against what she sees as her duty.  Or Isabela who will not fight Hawke, even when he betrays her personally to the Arishok.

And yes, Fenris does take a similar line (though he can be talked out of it by any Hawke), but I wouldn't use Fenris as any sort of standard of unconditional love and loyalty.  Most of the other companions won't consciously do harm to Hawke under any circumstances, at least by the narrow definition of consciously doing harm that you're using. For that matter, Cullen will never consciously do harm to Hawke and my relationship with him doesn't run any deeper than cordial respect.  As far as my Hawke is concerned, Anders destroyed his life by turning his home into a war zone and forcing him to either assist in his sister's murder or take a course of action that will make him a fugitive.  If he had really wanted to protect me, he could have urged me to sell my estates in Kirkwall and move back to Ferelden, but then I'd know he was up to something and might be able to stop him.  So again, the real reason he won't share his plans with you is that you might stop him...anything else he tells you is a lie.

Modifié par maxernst, 19 juillet 2011 - 01:15 .

[maxernst]

ademska wrote...

Evilnor wrote...

He basically says Hawke will always be second place.  Something about Hawke is the most important thing in his life, but some things are more important than his life.  If it was just a choice between his own death and Hawke's, he'd choose his own, but between Hawke and his cause, the cause comes first.

bingo.

this is perfect.

Huh?  He's just said that he would sacrifice you to further his cause.  He couldn't possibly say it any more clearly.

[Jean]

maxernst wrote...

For that matter, Cullen will never consciously do harm to Hawke and my relationship with him doesn't run any deeper than cordial respect.

Because it was totally plot device saving him for the next game

[highcastle]

maxernst wrote...
No, it;'s simply killing Hawke to achieve his goals.  So Anders supposedly undying  love can clearly die pretty quickly when it comes in conflict with the need for mage freedom.  Unlike, say, Aveline who will not fight Hawke, even when it goes against what she sees as her duty.  Or Isabela who will not fight Hawke, even when he betrays her personally to the Arishok.

And yes, Fenris does take a similar line (though he can be talked out of it by any Hawke), but I wouldn't use Fenris as any sort of standard of unconditional love and loyalty.  Most of the other companions won't consciously do harm to Hawke under any circumstances, at least by the narrow definition of consciously doing harm that you're using. For that matter, Cullen will never consciously do harm to Hawke and my relationship with him doesn't run any deeper than cordial respect.  As far as my Hawke is concerned, Anders destroyed his life by turning his home into a war zone and forcing him to either assist in his sister's murder or take a course of action that will make him a fugitive.  If he had really wanted to protect me, he could have urged me to sell my estates in Kirkwall and move back to Ferelden, but then I'd know he was up to something and might be able to stop him.  So again, the real reason he won't share his plans with you is that you might stop him...anything else he tells you is a lie.

I've written about this before throughout the thread, so I'm going to (try to) be concise here. Yes, Anders' cause is the most important thing to him. Far more important than his own life. But with regards to the siding-with-the-templars issue, I think it's a bit more complex than you're acknowledging.

In order for Anders to betray Hawke, a few things have to happen. 1) Hawke must spare him. 2) Hawke must side with the templars without having Anders at full rivalry. So let's take a look at what happens to drive Anders to his betrayal. First, he blows up the Chantry. This isn't the time to get into his motivations or whether it was the "right" thing to do. He does it. He's willing to die for it. In many ways, I think he expects Meredith to be the one to kill him. And if she doesn't, then Hawke would. (I've written elsewhere about my feelings on this; it seems on the friendship path, at least, Anders is grooming Hawke to replace him as the leader of the resistance. I can't speak about the rival path as I've no interest in playing it.) Instead, Meredith points the finger at the Circle and demands their death, while Hawke goes along with it and just cuts Anders' loose.

Anders cannot in good conscience let the other mages take the fall for him. He came this far, he made his declaration of war in a very public setting. But now he's being let off the hook and others are being held responsible in his stead. So he does what he views as the right thing: he fights for them anyway. In his eyes, Hawke would have betrayed him first. Hawke should have realized there was no logical reason to support the Knight-Commander in murdering a group of mages he knows are innocent of the Chantry's destruction. So he stands up and fights for what he believes in.

I don't believe under normal circumstances Anders would be willing to sacrifice Hawke to the cause. For one thing, as I said before, he seems to have hopes that Hawke could replace him. It's this whole V/Evey dynamic in many ways.

[Giggles_Manically]

I dont consider it a betrayal if he tries to stop Hawke from killing all the mages.
Brave but very stupid thing to do.

But not a betrayal.

[SurelyForth]

maxernst wrote...

No, it;'s simply killing Hawke to achieve his goals.  So Anders supposedly undying  love can clearly die pretty quickly when it comes in conflict with the need for mage freedom.  Unlike, say, Aveline who will not fight Hawke, even when it goes against what she sees as her duty.  Or Isabela who will not fight Hawke, even when he betrays her personally to the Arishok.

And yes, Fenris does take a similar line (though he can be talked out of it by any Hawke), but I wouldn't use Fenris as any sort of standard of unconditional love and loyalty.  Most of the other companions won't consciously do harm to Hawke under any circumstances, at least by the narrow definition of consciously doing harm that you're using. For that matter, Cullen will never consciously do harm to Hawke and my relationship with him doesn't run any deeper than cordial respect.  As far as my Hawke is concerned, Anders destroyed his life by turning his home into a war zone and forcing him to either assist in his sister's murder or take a course of action that will make him a fugitive.  If he had really wanted to protect me, he could have urged me to sell my estates in Kirkwall and move back to Ferelden, but then I'd know he was up to something and might be able to stop him.  So again, the real reason he won't share his plans with you is that you might stop him...anything else he tells you is a lie.

If a friendmance Anders did not fight to his death to protect the mages against Hawke and the templars, I would think less of him as a character and a person (and it's one of the reasons I prefer friendmance to rivalmance). I actually like the idea that he doesn't just run away and hide, that he takes one last stand for what he believes in, even though he must know it's futile. The Circle will hardly be able to defend itself from the templars and Hawke, and the one person he thought would be on the mages' side is willingly going in and killing innocents despite knowing full well that Anders is the sole person responsible. 

From his perspective, it has to be reprehensible. He gets to go free, while the innocent mages die? What kind of ****ery is that? 

And he can be worried that Hawke might stop him AND that Hawke might want to help AND that Hawke will be blamed. Humans are complicated creatures. While he prioritizes the former, it doesn't mean that the latter two concerns are non-existant, by any means.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 19 juillet 2011 - 02:48 .

[Ryzaki]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I dont consider it a betrayal if he tries to stop Hawke from killing all the mages.
Brave but very stupid thing to do.

But not a betrayal.

I don't consider it a betrayal either. Anders makes it clear the mage cause always come first in his eyes just like my Hawkes made the status quo the first thing in their view. They knew where each other stood. Anders didn't lie or trick Hawke with that. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 juillet 2011 - 03:13 .

[maxernst]

Ryzaki wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I dont consider it a betrayal if he tries to stop Hawke from killing all the mages.
Brave but very stupid thing to do.

But not a betrayal.

I don't consider it a betrayal either. Anders makes it clear the mage cause always come first in his eyes just like my Hawkes made the status quo the first thing in their view. They knew where each other stood. Anders didn't lie or trick Hawke with that. 

Fair enough, though I do think that trying to trick Hawke into helping him blow up the chantry is a betrayal.  It's mostly this idea Anders loves Hawke so much no matter what, even if you don't romance him, more deeply and truly than any of the other companions that I take issue with.  To be honest, it would be a hard for a friend-path to be roleplayed consistently and still side with the Templars, and I don't find rivalmances very psychologically convincing.  I find it hard to comprehend Anders loving someone who doesn't share his commitment to his most cherished values. 

Just for clarification, my Hawke sided with the mages but was furious with Anders for putting him in that position and wanted nothing to do with him.  He didn't kill him on impulse, maybe because he thought Anders execution should be performed by the authorities after a trial, but was too angry to even talk to him when he showed up at the gallows.



 

[Ryzaki]

maxernst wrote...
Fair enough, though I do think that trying to trick Hawke into helping him blow up the chantry is a betrayal.  It's mostly this idea Anders loves Hawke so much no matter what, even if you don't romance him, more deeply and truly than any of the other companions that I take issue with.  To be honest, it would be a hard for a friend-path to be roleplayed consistently and still side with the Templars, and I don't find rivalmances very psychologically convincing.  I find it hard to comprehend Anders loving someone who doesn't share his commitment to his most cherished values.  

Just for clarification, my Hawke sided with the mages but was furious with Anders for putting him in that position and wanted nothing to do with him.  He didn't kill him on impulse, maybe because he thought Anders execution should be performed by the authorities after a trial, but was too angry to even talk to him when he showed up at the gallows.

I did feel the bolded was a betrayal. Especially since Anders tricked my Hawke into helping him with the one thing he knew would get him to help. Getting rid of Justice. Then he blackmails Hawke with that "if you loved me you'd help me." line. Once Hawke sees the Chantry go up...upmost betrayal. Mostly due to the fact that Anders used him to do that and lied about it. 

I manage to friendpath and then side with the templars just fine though it is a very invidiual YMMV sort of thing. 

I hate the kill scene. It's just weak to me. And Anders expression makes me cringe. I prefer the showdown at the gallows. Feels more raw. 

Though the dialogue when you stab him is better. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 juillet 2011 - 03:55 .

[ademska]

maxernst wrote...

Fair enough, though I do think that trying to trick Hawke into helping him blow up the chantry is a betrayal.  It's mostly this idea Anders loves Hawke so much no matter what, even if you don't romance him, more deeply and truly than any of the other companions that I take issue with.  To be honest, it would be a hard for a friend-path to be roleplayed consistently and still side with the Templars, and I don't find rivalmances very psychologically convincing.  I find it hard to comprehend Anders loving someone who doesn't share his commitment to his most cherished values. 

but that part is true. i mean, it's intentionally written by the developers that way. please note, i never posited anything about his feelings for hawke being better or worse or deeper than the other companions'.

i don't exactly comprehend it either, and rivalmances with the exception of anders' (because his character changes depending on path far more than the others) make pretty much no sense to me at all. anders is a bit crazy, though. i mean, i hate to excuse his behavior under the blanket of "this is a crazy person", because people have explained his attachment to hawke with far more depth in backlogs, but he's still a very emotional, very bipolar, very possessed, very intense, very unstable, very crazy person.

thanks @highcastle, you said exactly what i wanted to say.

Modifié par ademska, 19 juillet 2011 - 04:12 .