57020 réponses à ce sujet

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I don't think people were really condemning casual sex, it can just feel strange in game, because in many cases it can feel like you slept with all three of them within the course of a half-week.

Some of it is the social stigma, though. There are a lot of things that people classify as "inherently wrong" that are really just "likely to go wrong, if done badly, or with an evil heart." (And yes my phrasing right now is influenced by reading ASoIaF. Shut up.)

I feel the same way about sleeping with Kaidan while he's under Shepard's command. Yes, sleeping with someone who is under your command often involves power imbalance and is often tantamount to abuse. It's one of those things that goes wrong so often when done badly or by thoughtless people, that there's a huge stigma against it. For me, though, I know my Shepard is a good lady, and the relationship is mutual, so everything's fine. Same thing goes for all the ME LIs, I suppose, since they're pretty much all technically a part of Shepard's crew, blah blah military discipline, blah blah fraternization.

A lot my Hawkes and most of my Wardens do things that would be bad if someone else did them incorrectly, but they're ok when they do it because they don't do it wrong. I'm trying to think of how to explain this, and this is my best metaphor (comics, again!). Wonder Woman will, on rare occasion, flat out kill some dude. Her two best buddies are Batman and Superman, and they're always like 'but killing people is wrong!' and Diana replies with "No. Killing good people is wrong. When killing someone prevents that person from killing a thousand other people, then it's fine." The natural response to that, of course, is "How do you know when killing someone will save others? How can you make that choice?" And Diana just shrugs and says "I'm a good person, and I do my best."

There are a lot of habits that can be risky, where the dice are loaded unless you're prepared. People associate these actions with being inherently wrong, though, which is frustrating.

And, on a lighter note: Top

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 20 juillet 2011 - 08:46 .

[Arquen]

Oh god, don't get me started on the fenris romance. For me, I actually feel worse for fenris in that scene. Wont go into that here though. Not the place, but yes I believe moving on to someone right after fenris, especially Anders does hurt fenris. Therefore hawke does hurt fenris because I believe he still cares about hawke afterwards and regrets leaving for a long time or maybe even forever. "Leaving was the hardest thing I've ever done." I believe him.

As for personal casual sex and what have you arguments im only referencing in game. As said, I don't care how people play their hawkes. I look at it more as I would if it happened in literature or as I said, the soap opera effect where everyone ends up bedding everyone. Personal life experiences and what have you were not my intent to bring up, challenge, or insult.

[berelinde]

<edited>

Never mind. This is getting too far away from talking about Anders.

Modifié par berelinde, 20 juillet 2011 - 09:24 .

[Giggles_Manically]

My current Hawke I am playing slept with all four romances.

Just to hear Fenris and Anders get all pissy about it.
Then for Isabela to totally end that banter, causing me no end of laughter.

[Giggles_Manically]

I think that the cultural view point that:
"A Real man has lots of sex, while A good women saves herself for her spouse"

Still refuses to die.
I see it all the time at where I work where guys go on and on about their exploits like it makes them some Hercules like being who stands above their peers. While women dont really seem to ever.

For a woman its, You like having sex? Why you dirty ho!
For a man its. You having sex? Why you manly paragon of manliness.

Modifié par Giggles_Manically, 20 juillet 2011 - 10:24 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I wasn't trying to excuse the reaction, just... blunt it, perhaps?

Believe me, I am all about knocking down the gender double standards.

Also, as a "better to have loved and lost" person, I usually take the view that it's better to have had at least the chance than to be left wondering. I don't think it's especially cruel for Hawke to pull off the hat trick, though if you do all four you pretty much have to hurt Anders or Merril, by virtue of their relationship mechanics.

[YamiSnuffles]

Arquen wrote...
Still, who doesn't have that scumbag hawke who beds everyone? Its like a blonde hawke... everyone has to have at least one!

I don't have a blonde Hawke. Or a Hawke that's bedded even two people, let alone everyone. 

EDIT: And since this seems to have turned into some sort of thing since I replied to this... I have no problem with blonde Hawkes (oh hey, I'm blonde irl) or Hawkes that sleep with multiple people. I'm just apparently the odd duck out this time. For me it went like this-

Adelynne- only slept with Anders in game. Since it takes so long to hook up with him, I figure she probably had some other relationship, just not with any of the companions because none of the others were a good fit for her at all. So her other relationships are relegated to headcanon at this point.

Dominic- Anders is too crazy passionate for him to handle, Fenris drives him crazy, and Merrill is like little sis number 2. Thus he spends a lot of time at the Blooming Rose and eventually hooks up with Izzy.

Modifié par YamiSnuffles, 20 juillet 2011 - 12:03 .

[berelinde]

ElleMullineux wrote...
Act two does take place over the course of a fortnight (a month at the very most - and that's with some very tenuous stretching), so if you do romance more than one person, you do move between them quite quickly. It's players choice as to how this is accounted for in people's head canon, but I can make it work very simply. (Fenris breaks up with you, rebound funtimes with Issy, Leandra dies, goes to Anders for comfort). 

The rest of your post makes perfect sense, and I agree with it in every respect, but does it say anywhere that Act 2 was so short? Or is that headcanon? I kind of like to imagine it as the highlights of a longer period of time.

Though when my Hawke (not speaking for others) does the Fenris -> Isabela -> Anders routine, which I do enjoy, he finds himself in bed with Fenris. He had not really planned to wind up in this position at that particular moment (he had been left frustrated by him often enough in the past not to assume that Fenris would ever do anything more than lead him on), but it happened, and now that it has, he's determined to try to overcome their differences and make the relationship work. At least on his end. And then Fenris leaves. Hawke is confused, with a lot of conflicting emotions and a vague sense that Fenris lied about the "It's not you, it's me" excuse for the breakup. As if Fenris considers him good enough for a booty call, but not relationship material. Since he had doubts of his own whether they could find enough common ground to make a life together, this isn't really the tragedy that it might be otherwise, but he is still plenty confused. He goes to Isabela to talk, and she helps him understand that sex for its own sake can be a good thing. In a way that only Isabela can. Now, with the recent events with Fenris in better perspective, Hawke's confusion is resolved and he feels better about himself and more forgiving toward Fenris. A short time later, Dissent happens. Hawke helps Anders through the aftermath, and once he's feeling well enough to handle it, reaffirms his interest in Anders. Since Hawke has seen him at his absolute worst and is still there for him, Anders relents and accepts Hawke as a lover.

Most of this time is spent offscreen between the conclusion of Dissent and QB. I imagine it would take Anders a few weeks, at least, to heal enough to regain his interest in physical things.

Or at least that's how it plays out in my head.

[berelinde]

Yet, in Act 1, you clear the bandits at the Sundermount Ambush Site for Aveline, return to Kirkwall, the *very same day* and talk to Brennen, she thanks Aveline for clearing the ambush "the other night." Except that it was really earlier that afternoon. Even if Jevan was a greedy, self-serving jerk, and he was, it would be insanity to send a solitary guard to an outpost that was further away than a couple of hours on foot.

So I would take time references with a very large spoonful of salt.

[beckaliz]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...


And, on a lighter note: Top

....... 

Omggggggg epic. XD

[beckaliz]

RE: Timeline

I was under the impression that each Act took place over a year timespan. I read somewhere that DA:O took that long. Even just as a matter of how long they say in-game that it's supposed to take to travel between Orzammar and the Circle, and you're bouncing around between all these other places.

Plus, they say that DA2 is over 10 years...? So, 10 years minus (2)(3-year gap) = 4 years. Minus (3)(1-year Act) = 1. 1 year service to Athenril or Meeran.

Of course linked missions are going to be closer together. But to me it doesn't make sense that the main story quests at the very least don't have gaps of a few weeks or months in-between.

I think the time frame between the acquisition of a quest and when it is completed is the thing that is the issue. I consider the quest to be completed immediately after getting it in your journal.

I try to hold off on Anders's quest for example until closer to the end because... would he really wait that long?

I consider these things to be simply game mechanics.

[[EDIT: Dammit I gotta PROOF these things better, I keep adding points. ARGH.]]

Modifié par beckaliz, 20 juillet 2011 - 12:47 .

[Arquen]

For some reason I ended up being the antagonist in this discussion. I never meant for it to be pushed to some real world social view. I also never meant to suggest people who like/have a lot of sex are scumbags. I think my words were taken very wrongly. I don't consider Isabela a scumbag, or zevran, and they have a LOT of sex. This isn't where I'm coming from.

To clarify further my "scumbag" Hawke is one who beds everyone, breaks up with everyone, and leaves a trail of broken hearts in their wake. Nothing to do with the sex part of it. Simply as I said, Hawke hurts one, then moves on, hurts another, then moves on, hurts another, then moves on, and may or may not settle with anyone. That doesn't seem a little despicable to anyone else? The trail of hurting people? It's the fact that the companions are hurt by Hawke that makes me find it distasteful. Not the sex part. Then on top of that Hawke goes on with the companions and pretends like nothing is wrong, nothing happened. Just goes on with life and romances whoever or no one at all.

Ugh, I just don't think I can articulate this well enough to not turn it into some kind of massive argument about casual sex, sexuality, and social standards. It was never my intent to get into all that.. *sigh*

So, forget the whole thing.. moving on.

[ipgd]

I'm not really sure why Fenris is the one who gets all the sympathy. He, like, pulls a textbook Hit It and Quit It. If anything, I'd think Hawke would have more right to be upset than he does.

[esper]

I think that the only ones Hawke is a douchebag for sleeping with and then dumping is Anders and Merrill because those two are clearly interested in more.
Isabella says she is only looking for something casual and Fenris - while he does get hurt, he hurts Hawke first and I don't think that Hawke can be blame for thinking that relationship is over.

[Sialater]

Arquen wrote...

For some reason I ended up being the antagonist in this discussion. I never meant for it to be pushed to some real world social view. I also never meant to suggest people who like/have a lot of sex are scumbags. I think my words were taken very wrongly. I don't consider Isabela a scumbag, or zevran, and they have a LOT of sex. This isn't where I'm coming from.

To clarify further my "scumbag" Hawke is one who beds everyone, breaks up with everyone, and leaves a trail of broken hearts in their wake. Nothing to do with the sex part of it. Simply as I said, Hawke hurts one, then moves on, hurts another, then moves on, hurts another, then moves on, and may or may not settle with anyone. That doesn't seem a little despicable to anyone else? The trail of hurting people? It's the fact that the companions are hurt by Hawke that makes me find it distasteful. Not the sex part. Then on top of that Hawke goes on with the companions and pretends like nothing is wrong, nothing happened. Just goes on with life and romances whoever or no one at all.

Ugh, I just don't think I can articulate this well enough to not turn it into some kind of massive argument about casual sex, sexuality, and social standards. It was never my intent to get into all that.. *sigh*

So, forget the whole thing.. moving on.

I get what you mean, though I'm not sure Isabella's and Fenris' hearts can be broken at that point.

[SurelyForth]

ipgd wrote...

I'm not really sure why Fenris is the one who gets all the sympathy. He, like, pulls a textbook Hit It and Quit It. If anything, I'd think Hawke would have more right to be upset than he does.

Yeah, I think Fenris really steps into himself and I don't feel too badly for him in the aftermath and there's no real sense of him being hurt that Hawke moves on.

And Isabela is totes ok with the one night of fun. And, like Fenris, her romance doesn't really "hit" until Act 3 so neither are really in a position to be hurt until that point.

Anders and Merrill are totally different stories, and I felt like a massive ****heel just doing the Merrill hit it and quit it for science.

[FieryDove]

beckaliz wrote...

RE: Timeline

I was under the impression that each Act took place over a year timespan. I read somewhere that DA:O took that long. Even just as a matter of how long they say in-game that it's supposed to take to travel between Orzammar and the Circle, and you're bouncing around between all these other places.

Plus, they say that DA2 is over 10 years...? So, 10 years minus (2)(3-year gap) = 4 years. Minus (3)(1-year Act) = 1. 1 year service to Athenril or Meeran.

I still don't understand the timeline. In my games 7 years of story happened. Varric tells me that 6 years have passed since he met me, I only have best served cold to do...plus 1 year mercs/smuggler =7. I will never know. The deep roads didn't take that long, a week to get there, week to get back plus a bit for DS/Spider from 'ell killing time. Maybe the escape from ostagar/lothering that we didn't get to see took 3 years.

As to mutliple romances...I have done the Fenris > dumped > Anders route. My character assumed Fenris left me and...that was it. Did it hurt? Yes, but nothing like what Anders did the first time when BooM happened.

That character tried to dump Anders at the gallows scene but Varric still says he stayed with her.

At least Anders and Merrill are faithful to Hawke. Fenris is too if you romance him at the start of Chap 2, he chases Izzy away. "I suggest you keep your distance"

[Arquen]

I feel the worst for Merrill for obvious reasons. I remember what someone said once, Romancing and bedding Merrill and then dumping her is like taking in a puppy, feeding and caring for it, and then kicking it to the curb. Just, heartbreaking. I couldn't ever do it, and I don't even like Merrill.

Isabela is all sunshine and lollypops either way, she only gets hurt if you bring romance into it then break her heart later, which is pretty harsh. Anders, well.. to me Anders is upset and hurt, but then he still has his cause so I don't feel like he actually misses Hawke that much. I don't imagine him pining after Hawke when they break up with him, but fully devoting himself to his cause instead.

Fenris is something altogether different for me, and while I know he hurts Hawke by leaving my sympathy for him comes from the fact that it isn't like he intended his memories to come back, and he realizes he isn't ready for something this big, and you know he regrets that decision every moment from the time he walks out the door to years later, and THEN perhaps moves on with Isabela, but it is debatable. There is plenty of discussion about his romance on his thread, so I'll leave it where it belongs.

I can't truly comment on the full extent of the Anders romance, but I just see him being able to move on because Hawke comes secondary and was a distraction anyways. If he/she didn't want Anders then I think he's willing to accept that. He's hurt, sure.. that line "You just weren't that good." - who wouldn't be hurt, but at least he has his cause to fall back on. Sleeping with him then dumping him is pretty harsh, because he is all "but we talked about this!" - it feels like such a betrayal honestly. He finally gives in and then BOOM - sorry but you weren't that good... harsh, very harsh. Yet he doesn't exactly seem to pine over Hawke or even miss hawke that much afterwards. He just gets full throttle into his cause. If you sleep with him you can't go back to Fenris so your options are rather limited thereafter. In one playthrough I slept with him then broke up with him and then let my Hawke stay unattached. I felt like a jerk at first for doing that to him, but he really didn't seem all that upset about it afterwards. He still went on with the cause of mages and we were still BFF.

[ipgd]

FieryDove wrote...

I still don't understand the timeline. In my games 7 years of story happened. Varric tells me that 6 years have passed since he met me, I only have best served cold to do...plus 1 year mercs/smuggler =7. I will never know. The deep roads didn't take that long, a week to get there, week to get back plus a bit for DS/Spider from 'ell killing time. Maybe the escape from ostagar/lothering that we didn't get to see took 3 years. 

10 years is including Varric's interrogation. The actual game only takes place over 7.