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[SurelyForth]

Batteries wrote...

I find it hard for anyone around the gallows to not hear about the annulment coming as much as that templar was blatantly saying it

That's what I think.

Which means I find the argument that Anders sacrificed the mages for his cause to be a non-starter. 


by Payroo

Modifié par SurelyForth, 21 juillet 2011 - 12:38 .

[ademska]

and on that note, @maxernst, since your position is one of pragmatism and actions rather than intent: regardless of whether anders knew about meredith calling for the rite or not, his inciting of the riots still preempted the wholesale slaughter of mages and gave them a fighting chance. yes, many were killed in the riots, but anders gave hawke the opportunity to side with mages and save far more than in a legitimate rite -- and with the divine already seriously considering an exalted march on kirkwall, it's only the barest of assumptions that she would have authorized that rite.


edit: justice is an abstract ideal, and isabela is right to point this out. however, much of the point of janders was that when they merged, anders' very specific ideals distilled justice's abstractness into a tangible goal. like beckaliz said, mage freedom is specific. otherwise anders wouldn't be able to take specific actions to achieve it.

Modifié par ademska, 21 juillet 2011 - 12:40 .

[beckaliz]

SurelyForth wrote...

Batteries wrote...

I find it hard for anyone around the gallows to not hear about the annulment coming as much as that templar was blatantly saying it

That's what I think.

Which means I find the argument that Anders sacrificed the mages for his cause to be a non-starter. 

Oddly enough, this is one of the reasons why Correm sides with the Templars. He believes that, working together with a sympathetic Cullen who is willing to defy Meredith, they can keep bloodshed down and spare as many mages as possible. Since Meredith is going to attempt wholesale slaughter of the mages anyway. But, fighting with the mages, there are plenty of actual blood mages who he does not, under any circumstances, want to help, and any mages that escape to find freedom will be hunted mercilessly and butchered anyway.

Not to mention that he doesn't want an Exalted March, because until he becomes Viscount he doesn't actually hate Kirkwall. XD After that, though... hahaha. Oh, headcanon.

Modifié par beckaliz, 21 juillet 2011 - 12:39 .

[SurelyForth]

But you don't know for certain that there are blood mages in the Circle until you're already against them, and nobody makes any overtures that they're willing to spare any of the mages.

I've said it before, but I completely understand why those mages use blood magic to defend themselves. It's the Right of Annulment which means that every single man, woman and child is to be executed. So they're fully expecting to die in their home for a crime they didn't commit. I would be using everything in my arsenal to survive and blood magic is pretty much it when templars are involved.

[Wulfram]

Batteries wrote...

I find it hard for anyone around the gallows to not hear about the annulment coming as much as that templar was blatantly saying it

Though the fact that Meredith has sent for the Right of Annulment shows that the Grand Cleric has said no - and thus it's not inevitable unless someone should remove the Grand Cleric.

Modifié par Wulfram, 21 juillet 2011 - 12:46 .

[Amondra]

Wulfram wrote...

Batteries wrote...

I find it hard for anyone around the gallows to not hear about the annulment coming as much as that templar was blatantly saying it

Though the fact that Meredith has sent for the Right of Annulment shows that the Grand Cleric has said no - and thus it's not inevitable unless someone should remove the Grand Cleric.

The Grand Cleric hasn't said no to the rite because it hasn't even shown up yet, and besides if the Divine says yes there is nothing Elthina can do anyhow...

[ademska]

Wulfram wrote...

Though the fact that Meredith has sent for the Right of Annulment shows that the Grand Cleric has said no - and thus it's not inevitable unless someone should remove the Grand Cleric.

the divine gives the final authorization and she's not said no. in all likelihood, with her considering an exalted march, she'll be inclined to grant it. it's not 100% an inevitability, but it's very likely.

[beckaliz]

SurelyForth wrote...

But you don't know for certain that there are blood mages in the Circle until you're already against them, and nobody makes any overtures that they're willing to spare any of the mages.

I've said it before, but I completely understand why those mages use blood magic to defend themselves. It's the Right of Annulment which means that every single man, woman and child is to be executed. So they're fully expecting to die in their home for a crime they didn't commit. I would be using everything in my arsenal to survive and blood magic is pretty much it when templars are involved.

Oh, I agree with you.

Correm, however, has some deeply buried anger issues. What happened to Leandra, followed by the kidnapping of his sister, when those two were always the most important things in his life before Anders, made him kind of blow a gasket, and there's no way he won't believe there aren't blood mages in there. He becomes irrational when it comes to teh bludz majickz.Then, in his mind, Anders forced him to execute him, and he kind of cracked a little. He still manages to be mostly purple choices after jenga, but underneath that he's just on "hardened warrior battle autopilot".

Modifié par beckaliz, 21 juillet 2011 - 12:53 .

[SurelyForth]

ademska wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Though the fact that Meredith has sent for the Right of Annulment shows that the Grand Cleric has said no - and thus it's not inevitable unless someone should remove the Grand Cleric.

the divine gives the final authorization and she's not said no. in all likelihood, with her considering an exalted march, she'll be inclined to grant it. it's not 100% an inevitability, but it's very likely.

I also think  the reason Meredith was insisting on searching the Circle to begin with was because she was looking proof that would sway Elthina once and for all...or that's pretty much what my Hawke assumes. 

[maxernst]

SurelyForth wrote...

And I really wish that someone would confirm if Anders knew that Meredith was calling for the Right of Annulment. I feel like, under those circumstances, his position is pretty defensible. t.

Here we interpret things completely differently.  My understanding is that Meredith has asked the Divine to approve the rite because Elthina will not.  If it's true that Anders knows about  this, then it implies Anders blows up Elthina in order to remove the obstacle to the Rite of Annulment that she represents and provoke the mage backlash.   Perhaps I'm wrong, but I can't see any other point to blowing up the Chantry.  Sure, the chantry is symbolic of the oppression, but wouldn't it make more sense to blow it up after the rite is called, so that it's clear why the chantry's being blown up? 

I also think you exaggerate the level of closure of the society, even in Kirkwall, let alone Ferelden. Bethany gets visited by Mom and writes letters to you.  While that could be some special privilege because you're a noble, she's not the only mage of noble origins in Kirkwall.  Orsino can send letters to you, and apparently correspond with apostates.  And it appears to me that the gallows courtyard is at least somewhat open to the public, otherwise there would be no point in Orsino attempting to address the people of Kirkwall at the beginning of act 3.  Mages seem to sneak in and out pretty frequently, certainly often enough to get messages out.  I think the main reasons that mages don't stay in contact with their families are that they're removed when they're so young that they hardly remember them, or their families may view them as monsters and not want to stay in contact, rather than direct chantry opposition.  Another thought on Bethany being allowed a visitor occurs to me:  it might be because she's passed the Harrowing.  Most mages have probably been in the Circle for years before passing it, and even if they are able to send messages, who knows if their parents can even read?  And many mages must be very far from their families, making visiting impossibly for many of them.

And I don't agree that Anders tried evey avenue open to him.  He doesn't seem to have had any contact with Thrask, who was plotting Meredith's downfall from within the Circle, probably because of his distrust for the Templars.  And unlike Meredith, he makes no attempt to go up the chain of command to the Divine.  Granted, he personally probably couldn't get an audience with him.  But maybe Hawke could, or at least make it to her advisers.

[beckaliz]

ademska wrote...
the divine gives the final authorization and she's not said no. in all likelihood, with her considering an exalted march, she'll be inclined to grant it. it's not 100% an inevitability, but it's very likely.

This.

I think I said as much on the "Anders blew up the Chantry, I was pleasantly surprised!" thread. (Or whatever it's named.)


_________________________________________________________


Orsino makes his speech at the beginning of Act 3 from the courtyard in front of the keep.

Modifié par beckaliz, 21 juillet 2011 - 12:57 .

[leggywillow]

ademska wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Though the fact that Meredith has sent for the Right of Annulment shows that the Grand Cleric has said no - and thus it's not inevitable unless someone should remove the Grand Cleric.

the divine gives the final authorization and she's not said no. in all likelihood, with her considering an exalted march, she'll be inclined to grant it. it's not 100% an inevitability, but it's very likely.

This.

In Sebastian's Act 3 quest, we find out that the Divine is considering extremely drastic action: basically razing all of Kirkwall to the ground.  If she still had any hope of minimizing bloodshed, you'd think she would give Meredith the go-ahead to annul the Circle.  Either way, the mages weren't going to make it out alive.

[Wulfram]

Amondra wrote...

The Grand Cleric hasn't said no to the rite because it hasn't even shown up yet, and besides if the Divine says yes there is nothing Elthina can do anyhow...

The Grand Cleric has said no to the Right.  She is the one who normally authorises them.  Meredith is sending to Orlais in the hopes that the Divine will overrule her, but I see little reason to believe this is likely.

If Anders really thought the Right was inevitable, blowing up the Chantry would be utterly nonsensical, since all it would be doing is giving Meredith a better excuse for it.  He wanted the Annulment, and acted to ensure it would not be stopped.  He wanted it to free the mages, and perhaps also as a punishment on the mages who have allowed themselves to become complicit in their slavery.

[maxernst]

ademska wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Though the fact that Meredith has sent for the Right of Annulment shows that the Grand Cleric has said no - and thus it's not inevitable unless someone should remove the Grand Cleric.

the divine gives the final authorization and she's not said no. in all likelihood, with her considering an exalted march, she'll be inclined to grant it. it's not 100% an inevitability, but it's very likely.

And if she does, then the Chantry is responsible at the very top, which seems to me would be better for Andrers' plans.  As it is, the Divine could scapegoat mad Meredith for the whole mess and go into overdrive to try and prevent the other circles from following suit.

I don't really understand this whole exalted march thing...why would she be considering an exalted march before the mage revolt?  Against who?  It doesn' t make a lot of sense to march against people you've already got locked up.

We know very little about the Divine (I'm guessing DA3 will give us more info).  Do we have some reason to think she's unusually fanatical in her hatred of mages?  Or is she a close associate of Meredith;s so that she would simply take her word for it?  It seems to me most people in a position of authority would hesitate to act without further investigation when somebody's jumped the chain of command as Meredith has.

[Taihsigva]

I think the bit about mages being allowed to correspond with others outside the Gallows as a privilege for those who passed their Harrowing - perhaps as one obstacle among many - sounds reasonable. Mage children certainly don't seem able to contact their parents, or vice versa, considering that Ella says her parents weren't even told where she was going when she was taken away.

As for avenues open to Anders... well, would it really be any better for him to be part of Thrask's group? Not to mention that they seem to actively distrust any figure of authority, and so may not have even welcomed him if he found out and tried to join them, thinking he was a spy or whatnot due to his relationship to Hawke (who they think is working for Orsino/Meredith). And appealing to the Divine sounds even less useful than appealing to Elthina, what with the Exalted March thing.

[Wulfram]

I find it highly unlikely that the Divine is considering an Exalted March. Leliana certainly does not say she is - and we also should remember that Leliana in Origins is extremely sympathetic to mages, which makes me doubt the Divine she is acting on behalf of is particularly hostile.

[maxernst]

SurelyForth wrote...

ademska wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Though the fact that Meredith has sent for the Right of Annulment shows that the Grand Cleric has said no - and thus it's not inevitable unless someone should remove the Grand Cleric.

the divine gives the final authorization and she's not said no. in all likelihood, with her considering an exalted march, she'll be inclined to grant it. it's not 100% an inevitability, but it's very likely.

I also think  the reason Meredith was insisting on searching the Circle to begin with was because she was looking proof that would sway Elthina once and for all...or that's pretty much what my Hawke assumes. 

That's actually very plausible, but still depends on both the proof actually existing and Elthina accepting it.

Modifié par maxernst, 21 juillet 2011 - 01:09 .

[LT123]

The Divine is Mother Dorothea from Leliana's Song,, now Divine Justinia V, in case you missed the codex entry like I did. http://dragonage.wik...vine_Justinia_V

Edit: The entry mentions that the previous Divine had a massive stroke and survived just long enough to name Dorothea as her replacement. Hmm.

Modifié par LT123, 21 juillet 2011 - 01:12 .

[SurelyForth]

maxernst wrote...

Here we interpret things completely differently.  My understanding is that Meredith has asked the Divine to approve the rite because Elthina will not.  If it's true that Anders knows about  this, then it implies Anders blows up Elthina in order to remove the obstacle to the Rite of Annulment that she represents and provoke the mage backlash.   Perhaps I'm wrong, but I can't see any other point to blowing up the Chantry.  Sure, the chantry is symbolic of the oppression, but wouldn't it make more sense to blow it up after the rite is called, so that it's clear why the chantry's being blown up? 

My take is that he's deliberately provoking an Annulment by doing something that can't be tied back to any of the Circle mages because then it proves that Meredith is willing to sacrifice mages in her fanatacism. 

Like I just said, I think that Meredith is searching for any proof of corruption/blood magic within the Circle and, if she finds it, the Right is justified. The mages will probably take it and their deaths will be meaningless because...no Circles rise up if you Annul the Ferelden Circle. 

[berelinde]

Wulfram wrote...

I find it highly unlikely that the Divine is considering an Exalted March. Leliana certainly does not say she is - and we also should remember that Leliana in Origins is extremely sympathetic to mages, which makes me doubt the Divine she is acting on behalf of is particularly hostile.

Origins Leliana is not the Divine's Left Hand. Whatever her feelings about mages were before she took the job, she must put all of that aside to serve the Chantry. So it looks as if Anders was not the only one to change.

During the Faith quest, Leliana asks Hawke to attempt to persuade Elthina to leave Kirkwall lest she be caught up in the destruction the Divine is sending. An Exalted March was definitely on its way before the Chantry goes boom. She might have had bigger problems than that afterward, what with the Circles breaking free of the Chantry across Thedas, but at the time Leliana comes to Kirkwall, those were the plans.

[Taihsigva]

SurelyForth wrote...

maxernst wrote...

Here we interpret things completely differently.  My understanding is that Meredith has asked the Divine to approve the rite because Elthina will not.  If it's true that Anders knows about  this, then it implies Anders blows up Elthina in order to remove the obstacle to the Rite of Annulment that she represents and provoke the mage backlash.   Perhaps I'm wrong, but I can't see any other point to blowing up the Chantry.  Sure, the chantry is symbolic of the oppression, but wouldn't it make more sense to blow it up after the rite is called, so that it's clear why the chantry's being blown up? 

My take is that he's deliberately provoking an Annulment by doing something that can't be tied back to any of the Circle mages because then it proves that Meredith is willing to sacrifice mages in her fanatacism. 

Like I just said, I think that Meredith is searching for any proof of corruption/blood magic within the Circle and, if she finds it, the Right is justified. The mages will probably take it and their deaths will be meaningless because...no Circles rise up if you Annul the Ferelden Circle. 

Another concern is probably tactical, since it seems unlikely that Meredith would line up all the mages in the Gallows and say, "oh, well, time for the Right of Annulment now! :D" I'd assume an actual annulment would be a lot more stealthy and done while the mages are completely caught unawares. Anders gets Meredith to declare it in front of Orsino, without any real preparation beforehand, which puts the mages in at least a slightly better position.

Modifié par Taihsigva, 21 juillet 2011 - 01:16 .

[maxernst]

Taihsigva wrote...

As for avenues open to Anders... well, would it really be any better for him to be part of Thrask's group? Not to mention that they seem to actively distrust any figure of authority, and so may not have even welcomed him if he found out and tried to join them, thinking he was a spy or whatnot due to his relationship to Hawke (who they think is working for Orsino/Meredith)

Well, that whole quest line is annoying.  My Hawke would so have helped Thrask.  I couldn't quite see why they leaped to conclusion that I was their enemy and then basically force me to be their enemy..  Grace is completely crazy, but Anders has met Thrask (who isn't), and I do think trying to hook up with likeminded Templars isn't a hopeless idea.  We know that many Templars are discontent with Meredith, even Cullen.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought their plan had a lot of merit, it was that loony Grace that torpedoed the whole thing.  My Hawke would have been onboard with helping them, if he had been given an opportunity.  The coup might have been messy, but my party plus some templars and probably lots of mages against whoever would stay loyal to Meredith.  I don't think Elthina is strong enough to oppose us post-coup if we put Thrask in charge of the Circle, especially after Meredith reveals herself to be posessed.  Of course, it still wouldn't be free enough for Anders.  And we really would have to worry about an Exalted March...I still think that it was the best plan of action available.  Certianly better than starting a war with no real plan as to how to win it.

Modifié par maxernst, 21 juillet 2011 - 01:24 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

LT123 wrote...

The Divine is Mother Dorothea from Leliana's Song,, now Divine Justinia V, in case you missed the codex entry like I did. http://dragonage.wik...vine_Justinia_V

Edit: The entry mentions that the previous Divine had a massive stroke and survived just long enough to name Dorothea as her replacement. Hmm.

For now, the impressiom I have of her is that she is an idiot.

But it does raise questions with regards to Leliana. And of course there's potential intra-Chantry politics that hasn't been explored yet.

[maxernst]

SurelyForth wrote...

maxernst wrote...

Here we interpret things completely differently.  My understanding is that Meredith has asked the Divine to approve the rite because Elthina will not.  If it's true that Anders knows about  this, then it implies Anders blows up Elthina in order to remove the obstacle to the Rite of Annulment that she represents and provoke the mage backlash.   Perhaps I'm wrong, but I can't see any other point to blowing up the Chantry.  Sure, the chantry is symbolic of the oppression, but wouldn't it make more sense to blow it up after the rite is called, so that it's clear why the chantry's being blown up? 

My take is that he's deliberately provoking an Annulment by doing something that can't be tied back to any of the Circle mages because then it proves that Meredith is willing to sacrifice mages in her fanatacism. 

Like I just said, I think that Meredith is searching for any proof of corruption/blood magic within the Circle and, if she finds it, the Right is justified. The mages will probably take it and their deaths will be meaningless because...no Circles rise up if you Annul the Ferelden Circle. 

The Ferelden Circle is a different situation.  Gregoir thinks all the mages are likely all dead or posessed, and it probably wouldn't be viewed as an atrocity.  It's not like he's been itching to Annul the circle for months.  As to Kirkwall, Meredith is convinced she'll find proof, but she's crazy, so who's to say?   How much proof is needed?  Gregoir found evidence of blood mages in Ferelden's circle and wasn't screaming for its annulment. 

[SurelyForth]

maxernst wrote...

The Ferelden Circle is a different situation.  Gregoir thinks all the mages are likely all dead or posessed, and it probably wouldn't be viewed as an atrocity.  It's not like he's been itching to Annul the circle for months.  As to Kirkwall, Meredith is convinced she'll find proof, but she's crazy, so who's to say?   How much proof is needed?  Gregoir found evidence of blood mages in Ferelden's circle and wasn't screaming for its annulment. 

Greagoir isn't a a) fanatic that's being allowed to run the city-state and c) is being further corrupted by a lyrium idol that can bring statues to life.