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[Wulfram]

berelinde wrote...
Origins Leliana is not the Divine's Left Hand. Whatever her feelings about mages were before she took the job, she must put all of that aside to serve the Chantry. So it looks as if Anders was not the only one to change.

There's nothing in Leliana's character which suggests she would take the job if she didn't believe in what it was doing.

During the Faith quest, Leliana asks Hawke to attempt to persuade Elthina to leave Kirkwall lest she be caught up in the destruction the Divine is sending. An Exalted March was definitely on its way before the Chantry goes boom. She might have had bigger problems than that afterward, what with the Circles breaking free of the Chantry across Thedas, but at the time Leliana comes to Kirkwall, those were the plans.

Leliana asks Hawke to attempt to persuade Elthina to leave because Kirkwall is no longer safe for her.  This is obviously true - there's loads of crazy mages and a crazy knight commander too, and Elthina's attempting to stop the war they both want - and has nothing to do with a supposed Exalted March which Leliana never endorses or even mentions.

edit: ToP

Modifié par Wulfram, 21 juillet 2011 - 09:38 .

[berelinde]

Sorry, Wulfram, not going to go dig up a save to quote dialogue at you. This is when having a toolset would really be handy. And I've learned a long time ago that attempting to persuade someone that a beloved opinion might be based on things that are very subtly inaccurate is just begging for a long, drawn out forum war that will eventually degenerate into "Did not!"/"Did too!". Especially when one party is passionate about the subject. So I'll just skip to the part where I say that I don't care enough about Leliana to argue her virtues, whatever they may be. Especially not when it's off-topic anyway. *checks the thread title and verifies that it does not contain the words Leliana, Elthina, politics, or Divine*

Edit: Fun fact! The Northeastern US is in the middle of a heat wave. Too hot to argue. About anything.

Modifié par berelinde, 21 juillet 2011 - 10:05 .

[Arquen]

Oh my, what lovely reading while I have my breakfast, LOL.

I think it really boils down to the ambiguity. There doesn't seem to be enough evidence, information, knowledge about Justinia to make a solid statement regarding her motives or plans.

What I find the most interesting as far as the Anders side of it... why the chantry? Also, if he did know about the ROA - doesn't that make it just worse? That Elthina might have stopped it, but he killed her so now it is infinitely worse?

For some reason I always assumed that Justinia was going to raze Kirkwall either way. Leliana was rather ominous even if she didn't come out and say it. Also, Sebastian goes on about how it is only "a handful of apostates!" and "You cannot punish an entire city for the actions of a few mages due to .. proximity!" and Elthina responds (and I facepalm) "She will do her best.." Just further proof that the divine marching is like.. total slaughter/overtake/martial law/spanish inquisition (insert other examples here.)

Anyways, the whole thing is rather ambiguous to me, and I take it with a grain of salt because honestly I just don't know what the hell is going to happen. Moreover, was there a better way for Anders to start the whole thing than blowing up the Chantry? I mean, was there a better target he could have chosen for his war-starter? I really don't see one. Assassinating Meredith would have been the best thing (IMHO), but that really doesn't start a revolution. It is just what would have been better for Kirkwall.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I have the bad insomnia and my head is full of Starks, so this may be less coherent and well-reasoned than normal. Mea culpa.

\\My belief is that Anders decision boiled down to this: with the ROA request off to the Divine, the mages' lives hang on the mercy of the Chantry... something Anders has little faith in, for good cause. If a messenger comes back with consent, Meredith will just Annul everyone in the circle... everyone, including Beth if she's there. The only way to prevent that is to involve someone... Hawke. The only way to involve Hawke is to ensure that Hawke is present when the Right is called. The only way to do that is to do something that will cause Meredith to publicly invoke the Right.

Then there's Anders' other goal, which is to send up a signal flare that sheds light on what happened in Kirkwall, and has a chance of sparking a mage revolution. So two birds, one stone: Kill Elthina (who is both a symbol of the Chantry's callousness and Meredith's temporary road block), which ensures Hawke is present to interfere with the ROA Meredith will then call.

I don't think the point of the Chantry bomb was to kill as many people as possible, it was just to make sure that Elthina dies visibly, by magic, at a time when he knows that Hawke and Meredith are together. That way, if he's right and Meredith calls the ROA, then Hawke can interfere.

And here's the thing... even if Hawke sides with the Templars, the situation is (almost always) still better than it would have been if a runner had come back with the ROA OK and Meredith had just gone in and done it herself. You can choose to spare some mages and Bethany lives, if she's there. So if you assume that ROA will go through (which Anders has no reason not to assume,) Anders still potentially saved some mages by blowing up the Chantry.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 21 juillet 2011 - 11:27 .

[berelinde]

CGG: Good post! Just one question. What's a Stark?

Heat, and probably insomnia, now that I think about it, are doing horrible things to my brain, so apologies if this is answered elsewhere.

[Arquen]

I can agree with that. I definitely can see how the ROA and Meredith going in by herself would have been infinitely worse than Hawke being there.

I suppose the question is if your really on board believing that the divine is going to OK the ROA and if Meredith will ever get that kind of power without Anders blowing up the Chantry. As stated she has sent for it. Yet, we just assume it is going to be granted and be inevitable because of what is hinted at about Justinia's feelings about Kirkwall. I guess I just never really delved to far into it. For some reason I didn't get that the ROA was something that was going to happen regardless.

[AstraDrakkar]

O.o, I am in desperate need of caffiene this morning~~~~~~~zzzzzzz.

Someone post something hot about Anders so i'll wake up-lol

Modifié par AstraDrakkar, 21 juillet 2011 - 12:47 .

[Arquen]

 Found a lovely pic by kimmit on DA if that helps 



by kimmit

[maxernst]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
.

Remember that the Chantry is a political institution that is also a religion. You seem to be of the opinion that it is the most politically apt who end up as the leaders of religions. The Divine doesn't have to be dumb. She just has to be not brilliant and have a degree of faith. If she has equal reason to believe two things, and errs on the side of dogma when it swings one way, it is easy to make misjudgements. Again, there are people on these very boards who believe that Meredith is a reasonable check to the blood mages, and they aren't even Andrastean! 

. 

I don't believe it's likely that somebody could rise to the top of a large institution like the Chantry without being quite astute politically., whereas she only needs to pretend to be pious in public.  I would not assume that the Divine is necessarily a particularly religious person. 

[berelinde]

maxernst wrote...

I don't believe it's likely that somebody could rise to the top of a large institution like the Chantry without being quite astute politically.,

Does anyone remember [insert the name of your favorite moronic politician]?

Political offices are full of people without a clue. I'm not going to get into RL politics on the boards, but we all know examples of this.

From what I understand, the Divine chooses her own successor. That might be the worst possible means of filling the position, since it is highly vulnerable to nepotism and other abuses. Again, real world examples abound throughout history. In the game, we see the result of this when the Assembly in Orzammar is paralyzed because the preference of the dead Aeducan is disputed.

[Sialater]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I have the bad insomnia and my head is full of Starks, so this may be less coherent and well-reasoned than normal. Mea culpa.

My belief is that Anders decision boiled down to this: with the ROA request off to the Divine, the mages' lives hang on the mercy of the Chantry... something Anders has little faith in, for good cause. If a messenger comes back with consent, Meredith will just Annul everyone in the circle... everyone, including Beth if she's there. The only way to prevent that is to involve someone... Hawke. The only way to involve Hawke is to ensure that Hawke is present when the Right is called. The only way to do that is to do something that will cause Meredith to publicly invoke the Right.

Then there's Anders' other goal, which is to send up a signal flare that sheds light on what happened in Kirkwall, and has a chance of sparking a mage revolution. So two birds, one stone: Kill Elthina (who is both a symbol of the Chantry's callousness and Meredith's temporary road block), which ensures Hawke is present to interfere with the ROA Meredith will then call.

I don't think the point of the Chantry bomb was to kill as many people as possible, it was just to make sure that Elthina dies visibly, by magic, at a time when he knows that Hawke and Meredith are together. That way, if he's right and Meredith calls the ROA, then Hawke can interfere.

And here's the thing... even if Hawke sides with the Templars, the situation is (almost always) still better than it would have been if a runner had come back with the ROA OK and Meredith had just gone in and done it herself. You can choose to spare some mages and Bethany lives, if she's there. So if you assume that ROA will go through (which Anders has no reason not to assume,) Anders still potentially saved some mages by blowing up the Chantry.

That's the first time I've ever heard an argument that made his actions sound tactically intelligent.  (Still internally debating on his overarching strategy, however.)

[Wulfram]

Hawke would always intervene in an Annullment.

You've got to remember that the spirit which blows up the chantry isn't one which wants to save mages, it's one which tries to make Anders murder them.

[Sialater]

Wulfram wrote...

Hawke would always intervene in an Annullment.

You've got to remember that the spirit which blows up the chantry isn't one which wants to save mages, it's one which tries to make Anders murder them.

Not always.  Hawke can Annul the Circle, too, up to and including killing Bethany.  In which case, Anders miscalculated and forced Hawke's hand.

[Reflection Muse]

This is the sweetest thing I've seen all week. I saw it this morning and had to share. (For what it's worth, this little girl isn't his child, just a very young mage.)



By amazingly the talented rooster82.

Modifié par Reflection Muse, 21 juillet 2011 - 03:12 .

[ipgd]

Wulfram wrote...

Hawke would always intervene in an Annullment.

Not every invocation of an Annulment would serve to highlight Meredith's incompetency the way the RoA called post-Chantry does. If Meredith was given the go-ahead by the Divine, she would be seen in a much different light.

You've got to remember that the spirit which blows up the chantry isn't one which wants to save mages, it's one which tries to make Anders murder them.

No it's not? Both Anders and Justice do genuinely want to save mages, and genuinely believe their actions are justified. Anders is also working in synchronicity with Justice on the friendship path.

Modifié par ipgd, 21 juillet 2011 - 03:16 .

[Sialater]

Reflection Muse wrote...

This is the sweetest thing I've seen all week. I saw it this morning and had to share. (For what it's worth, this little girl isn't his child, just a very young mage.)



By amazingly the talented rooster82.

I think I've faved almost everything she and Sweet Candy Rain have ever done.  LOL

Modifié par Sialater, 21 juillet 2011 - 03:16 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

Wulfram wrote...
You've got to remember that the spirit which blows up the chantry isn't one which wants to save mages, it's one which tries to make Anders murder them.

While Anders' actions do lead to the death of mages, his actions were not made specifically to murder them.  Justice believes the only way to save the mages is for them to start an all-out war against the Chantry.

[Sialater]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Wulfram wrote...
You've got to remember that the spirit which blows up the chantry isn't one which wants to save mages, it's one which tries to make Anders murder them.

While Anders' actions do lead to the death of mages, his actions were not made specifically to murder them.  Justice believes the only way to save the mages is for them to start an all-out war against the Chantry.

Which isn't actually logic I entirely get.  I support him in it, but...  it's a head scratcher.

[Wulfram]

ipgd wrote...

No it's not? Both Anders and Justice do genuinely want to save mages, and genuinely believe their actions are justified. Anders is also working in synchronicity with Justice on the friendship path.

Ella

[ipgd]

Sialater wrote...

Which isn't actually logic I entirely get.  I support him in it, but...  it's a head scratcher.

He believes a) that war is the only way to eradicate the status quo he finds reprehensible, and that war is preferable to the status quo.

[ipgd]

Wulfram wrote...

Ella

Whom Justice believed, in a fit of rage following her calling him a demon, to be brainwashed and consequently complicit in the status quo. It was also, well, a fit of rage. Justice does not actively want to murder mages for no reason.

Whether or not you agree with what he did doesn't retroactively make him a cackling evil Disney villain who just wants to watch the world burn. In his own mind, he really does believe that what he does is ultimately justified, and he does it to attempt to save the mages.

Modifié par ipgd, 21 juillet 2011 - 03:59 .

[AstraDrakkar]

Ya know, it's kind of odd that I started out playing this game as a true blue Fengirl and now I prefer Anders. I've scratched my head many times wondering how that came about.

Is there anyone else here in my position? If so, could you tell me why your preference changed? I feel the need for enlightenment today.

Modifié par AstraDrakkar, 21 juillet 2011 - 04:07 .

[Wulfram]

ipgd wrote...

Whom Justice believed, in a fit of rage following her calling him a demon, to be brainwashed and consequently complicit in the status quo. It was also, well, a fit of rage. Justice does not actively want to murder mages for no reason.

He wants to murder mages for being complicit in the status quo.  Which all the circle mages are.  Listen to his total contempt for Orsino, who is hardly a Loyalist, "bow[ing] to our Templar jailors"

Whether or not you agree with what he did doesn't retroactively make him a cackling evil Disney villain who just wants to watch the world burn. In his own mind, he really does believe that what he does is ultimately justified, and he does it to attempt to save the mages.

Justice believes he is doing right, which is explainable by being a total alien lifeform twisted and made insane by it's exile in reality and the the hatred in Anders minds - by it's very nature, I would guess it is incapable of considering itself unrighteous.  I question very much whether Anders believes he is doing right - he may sometimes be able to pretend it, but the truth is that he has surrendered the war for his own mind and is little more than a puppet for Justice.

Modifié par Wulfram, 21 juillet 2011 - 04:12 .

[beckaliz]

He doesn't necessarily think that a massive war will save mages, but during Dissent, while they're going through the cave, he does state that he thinks mages would be better off in open warfare. I think he knows it's not a guaranteed chance but it's a better chance for them than wallowing in the Circle.

On the other issue being discussed, since the Divine was considering an Exalted March before Meredith sent her the request for Annulment ("THAR IS BLUDD MAGES HEER CAN I KILLZ THEM ALL KTHXBAI"), I think it's safe to say that she'd at the very least authorize the Annulment, since I'm sure she would rather not make the effort of an entire Exalted March if she didn't have to. If an official RoA had been authorized, then Cullen would probably not have been willing to defy Meredith during endparts. If the mages are going to fight their way out it's better to have it happen before Meredith has any legitimacy behind her actions.

Ella happened because she accused Justice of being a demon, while he was already in Vengeance mode, and he felt like she had become a threat.