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[ipgd]

Wulfram wrote...

He wants to murder mages for being complicit in the status quo.  Which all the circle mages are.  Listen to his total contempt for Orsino, who is hardly a Loyalist, "bow[ing] to our Templar jailors"

He does not want to murder them. He wants to free them, whether they want freedom or are willing to fight for it or not. Ella's case was also, again, a fit of rage, and was the only instance of such a thing in 7 years, so I don't think it has much bearing on an analysis of Anders's rational motivations outside of fits of rage. He does not murder Orsino.

Justice believes he is doing right, which is explainable by being a total alien lifeform twisted and made insane by it's exile in reality and the the hatred in Anders minds - by it's very nature, I would guess it is incapable of considering itself unrighteous.  I question very much whether Anders believes he is doing right - he may sometimes be able to pretend it, but the truth is that he has surrendered the war for his own mind and is little more than a puppet for Justice.

As I've gone over many a time, I have a different idea of how the Anders/Justice merger works, so I disagree. I do not think "Anders" or "Justice" are truly autonomous entities.

Modifié par ipgd, 21 juillet 2011 - 04:24 .

[beckaliz]

AstraDrakkar wrote...

Ya know, it's kind of odd that I started out playing this game as a true blue Fengirl and now I prefer Anders. I've scratched my head many times wondering how that came about.

Is there anyone else here in my position? If so, could you tell me why your preference changed? I feel the need for enlightenment today.

On my first PT I encountered Anders pretty quickly. (And I hadn't played Awakenings yet so I didn't know who he was.) I thought he was cute and charming right off the bat. So I took up with the whole flirting deal. Then I almost missed Fenris entirely because I almost forgot to do Anso's quest. Derp derp. I saw Fenris for the first time and my reaction was something like this: "Whooooa! O_O He's yummy!! But, no, I've already started flirting with Anders, I should stay consistent. u_u" Even though I wanted to change my mind.

Then when Anders blew up the Chantry I was very very upset with him and ran crying to Fenris for my next PT. Friendmanced him, was completely cruel to Anders, and was still very cranky with Anders until I finally played Awakenings and started hanging around here. I even thought at one point, "Why do they like Anders so much. D: He blew up the thing."

But after putting more thought into both of them and playing the game a couple more times, well, I've obviously changed my mind. Anders has a whole lot more soul and a whole lot more depth to him than Fenris does. I can empathize with him.

Modifié par beckaliz, 21 juillet 2011 - 04:33 .

[berelinde]

AstraDrakkar wrote...

Ya know, it's kind of odd that I started out playing this game as a true blue Fengirl and now I prefer Anders. I've scratched my head many times wondering how that came about.

Is there anyone else here in my position? If so, could you tell me why your preference changed? I feel the need for enlightenment today.

You'll have a hard time finding someone who can answer that question in a satisfactory manner. For a guy that obsesses about the same thing for seven years, he is remarkably complex. And if you ask ten people for one reason why they like the character, three of them will give you a reason (all different from each other), another three will be unable to limit it to one, two will say "I don't know, I just do," one will wax philosophical about it, and one will answer as if you were asking about Awakenings Anders.

Also, you are a rare person to find on these forums. You might have noticed.

Edit: And I'm not eligible to answer that question. I've always prefered Anders.

Modifié par berelinde, 21 juillet 2011 - 04:35 .

[highcastle]

Wulfram wrote...
Justice believes he is doing right, which is explainable by being a total alien lifeform twisted and made insane by it's exile in reality and the the hatred in Anders minds - by it's very nature, I would guess it is incapable of considering itself unrighteous.  I question very much whether Anders believes he is doing right - he may sometimes be able to pretend it, but the truth is that he has surrendered the war for his own mind and is little more than a puppet for Justice.

Well, that's certainly one interpretation of the truth, but to sit there and call it the definitive answer is a bit of a fallacy. Anders and Justice can be viewed in several--often contradictory--ways. And that's intentional. The point it to make you question how much they're separate, how much they're intertwined. We see that because Justice can manifest and Anders is not always aware of these possessions that they are to some degree separate, despite Anders' insistence that they are one.

I don't think you can just dismiss Anders' claims that he hears Justice's thoughts as his own, though. How you want to interpret will of course vary. Personally, though, I got the impression that--with the exception of those "heightened emotional disturbance" moments--Anders is of one mind. Justice is embedded deep in his subconscious. It's not like he's having a conversation with himself in there. (Just my opinion, of course. There's no evidence one way or the other.)

In this case, he's not so much a puppet of Justice as the two of them are a completely new third being: JAnders. Their consciousnesses are pretty well-blended (at least on the friendship path). So it's not a case of Justice suppressing Anders as much as the two of them coming to a consensus.

It should also be noted that the war for Anders' mind is really only on the rival path. On the friendship route, it's more about Anders and Justice deepening the merger and unifying. I don't see that as Justice dominating Anders because he still has his own thoughts and feelings (such as his relationship with Hawke). He's simply (literally) not the same person he used to be. Neither is Justice.

I've said it before: there's a tendency even among Anders fans to hold Justice responsible for every bad thing Anders did. That's simply not true. It ignores Anders' own anger towards the Circle. It ignores his own feelings, which he made clear in DAA. Justice simply stripped him of his barriers, possibly by making him relive his memories as Justice experienced them all for the first time (a theory I came up with given the way Justice seems aware of Kristoff's memories). Anders himself is the one who jokes he's "always up for a spot of iconoclasm." It may be in jest, but he strikes me as a person who uses humor both to deflect and admit the truth. Even back then, Anders had issues with the Chantry.

To sum up: to call Anders a mere puppet ignores the facets of his own character pre-Justice that would support what he's done. 

[Wulfram]

ipgd wrote...

He does not want to murder them. He wants to free them, whether they want freedom or are willing to fight for it or not. Ella's case was also, again, a fit of rage, and was the only instance of such a thing in 7 years, so I don't think it has much bearing on an analysis of Anders's rational motivations outside of fits of rage. He does not murder Orsino.

Justice wants to end the injustice and punish the guilty.  He cares nothing for whether mages live to enjoy that freedom, and, as we see in Dissent, considers those who submit as worthy of death.

And the destruction of the chantry and provocation of the extermination of the Circle is nothing if not a fit of rage.  One which has been building for seven years.

As I've gone over many a time, I have a different idea of how the Anders/Justice merger works, so I disagree. I do not think "Anders" or "Justice" are truly autonomous entities.

I don't know if they're truly autonomous, but there's a clear difference between

and


They even have different voice actors!

Whether they are seen as aspects of the same composite entity, or two entities in the same mind, or a person suffering from demonic possession, it doesn't really change my argument.  And it's easiest to refer to them as Justice and Anders.

[Sinaxi]

AstraDrakkar wrote...

Ya know, it's kind of odd that I started out playing this game as a true blue Fengirl and now I prefer Anders. I've scratched my head many times wondering how that came about.

Is there anyone else here in my position? If so, could you tell me why your preference changed? I feel the need for enlightenment today.

Haha. My first playthrough I was with Fenris and no one else (I had kind of read some stuff and most people seemed to prefer him over Anders. It wasn't anything I read on these forums though.) I did like him a lot, but..I don't know. Something was missing. I just don't know what it was. I also just couldn't really take much more of the "WAHHH, MAGIC SUCKS!" not that I don't see where he is coming from...but his complaining annoyed me 20x more than anything Anders would say. And I just read on that "which dialogue you'd like changed" thread that apparently if you don't send Emile to the circle and set him free..he rats you out to Meredith? (Not sure if this is just on rivalry) but...WHAT THE EFF? After everything you've helped that guy with, all the while listening to him moan about Mages (as you use magic to kill people he needs dead). Sooo annoying. That, and, it's no one's fault but his own that he decides to leave you for 3 years without a word.

You'll have a hard time finding someone who can answer that question in a
satisfactory manner. For a guy that obsesses about the same thing for
seven years, he is remarkably complex. And if you ask ten people for one
reason why they like the character, three of them will give you a
reason (all different from each other), another three will be unable to
limit it to one, two will say "I don't know, I just do," one will wax
philosophical about it, and one will answer as if you were asking about
Awakenings Anders.

Also, you are a rare person to find on these forums. You might have noticed

^this. Something about Anders. However, my second playthrough I did still do Fenris, and Isabela - who I actually think I love more than Fenris. She's probably my choice for the most sane relationship (and I find her incredibly funny and sweet) but I think a lot of it too is that I felt for a while Anders fit the story I was personally trying to play better. A lot of people said they prefer to be with him on a class other than Mage since it makes it more meaningful when you side with mages, but I just loved pairing up with him as a kind of revolutionary mage myself. No where near the amount he is, but I helped where I could without being blinded by the fact that not all mages are as strong as my Hawke and many do go completely nuts (especially in place such as Kirkwall where the veil is ridiculously thin). It made me feel like it helps to balance a character like Anders out, since he knows you're still on his side and you completely understand where he is coming from because you have experienced all these things yourself being a mage. That and, I think it's sort of hilarious how Meredith kind of has to keep her distance regarding the fact that I'm an apostate since I am the Champion, and also keep her distance from Anders pretty much ONLY because he's my friend. Then when she starts threatening Anders and me about being apostates in her city I'm just like **** plz. Oh, and, come on..two apostates running away together?! ADORRRAAABLE!

So that's probably my biggest reason - story wise. Other than that, I think these forums um completely corrupted me. I joined just a while back and pretty much it was because I felt an overwhelming need to discuss Anders and his decisions in the game, so I found this thread and started asking what other people thought about the different facets of his character until I could come to a pretty baseline opinion for myself. I think just talking about all of it made me love him even more. Haha

Modifié par Tidra, 21 juillet 2011 - 05:24 .

[Sialater]

ipgd wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Which isn't actually logic I entirely get.  I support him in it, but...  it's a head scratcher.

He believes a) that war is the only way to eradicate the status quo he finds reprehensible, and that war is preferable to the status quo.

Right, but rising up will cost an awful lot of mage lives.  Or, uh, "Spill an awful lot of magical blood," to quote Voldemort.

Apparently, breaking the status quo is worth that loss.  Some days, I'm just not sure of it.  (But then I play DA2 again and get all swept up in Viva la Revolucion! and I see it again, so maybe I should just go play again.)

[beckaliz]

Anders has really been just what I needed to get sone leftover nastiness from a bad ending to a long (yet ofttimes volatile) friendship out of my psyche, and make me remember that I used to love romantic rather than just angsty love stories. <3 And I'm getting déja-vu writing this even though I'm sure I haven't ever before. o_O;;

So, um, yeah, thanks guys for everything on this thread. I just wanna say that. Gonna run off with my exposed underbelly back to Maps and Legends on my Kindle now.

[Jean]

Fenris isn't insane enough for me.

We were denied Varric. So Anders it was.

Modifié par Batteries, 21 juillet 2011 - 06:31 .

[xRiseAboveThis]

AstraDrakkar wrote...

Ya know, it's kind of odd that I started out playing this game as a true blue Fengirl and now I prefer Anders. I've scratched my head many times wondering how that came about.

Is there anyone else here in my position? If so, could you tell me why your preference changed? I feel the need for enlightenment today.

I went the opposite way. On my first playthrough I was completely in love with Anders and hated Fenris, and then on my second (and unfinished) playthrough I tried to rivalmance Fenris and still hated him. But on my third playthrough I friendmanced him (just because it was in character for that particular pro-templar Hawke), and he's now my favorite compantion to romance.

That being said, Anders is still my favorite character overall, but my Hawkes tend to prefer him as a friend rather than romantically.

[berelinde]

I know that I said I wasn't eligible to answer because I was never a fengirl, but stating your reasons for liking a character is definitely on topic for the thread, so no harm done, right?

One of the big deal-makers/dealbreakers for me has always been how over-the-top a character is. Bonus points for believability. I expect a certain amount of specialness in any RPG character because nobody would willingly take the guy at the coffee counter up Mount Doom, figuratively speaking, but too much "SPESHUL" makes it impossible for me to enjoy the character. The things that make Anders unique are the result of choices he's made. He is a human mage whose life experiences before the start of his adventuring career are consistent with other human mages. So far, he's refreshingly normal. When confronted with things he did not like, he either used sarcasm to deflect or he outright ran away. This is understandable behavior. And then he met the Warden, and we know what happened next. The important thing to me is that what happened next was the direct result of a decision he made. He does not always like how things turned out, but he does not blame others for his mistakes. Not even the templars. Sure, he blames the templars when mages turn to blood magic or attempt to run away, but he knows that his own anger has made him the way he is.

Contrast that with Fenris. Fenris is an elf, and not just any elf, but a Tevinter elf, something players of Dragon Age will never have met. And he isn't just any Tevinter elf, he was once a slave (unhappy childhood, tortured past, etc.). He has full-body tatoos, unnatural haircolor, and wears a lot of leather. I'm only surprised it isn't black leather. And he's chock full of angst. We know this because everyone is always talking about how broody he is. And did I mention he has amnesia? When bad things happen, he blames the mages. No matter whose fault it really is. To me, this is the character equivalent of those Anders face mods that change his haircolor, give him piercing blue eyes, a new hairstyle, scars, and facial tattoos. It's just too much.

This isn't the only reason I prefer Anders. He's also got an attractive model, a talented VA, and a backstory that interests me. Once I started playing the game, I discovered that his character was richly developed, complex, and deeply flawed in a way that I found sympathetic. And the romance was engaging, tragic, and at times, kind of funny. Or at least entertainingly corny. Right up until Act 3, when it all fell apart. Which was brilliant. It's only really surprising the first time, but even on subsequent playthroughs, it's still enjoyable.

Modifié par berelinde, 21 juillet 2011 - 07:13 .

[Sialater]

In Act 3, it's interesting. All the other romances are strengthening and Anders' falls apart, trust issues are raised, shouting matches occur....

[Quething]

berelinde wrote...

And the romance was engaging, tragic, and at times, kind of funny. Or at least entertainingly corny. Right up until Act 3, when it all fell apart. Which was brilliant. It's only really surprising the first time, but even on subsequent playthroughs, it's still enjoyable.

I don't know. The first thing he said to me when I romanced him was that he'd drown us both in blood to keep me safe. I was never really expecting a happy, healthy ending.

[ademska]

Wulfram wrote...

They even have different voice actors!

Whether they are seen as aspects of the same composite entity, or two entities in the same mind, or a person suffering from demonic possession, it doesn't really change my argument.  And it's easiest to refer to them as Justice and Anders.

actually, while there are two voice actors, in every instance where you hear justice's va -- with the exception of the fade in night terrors -- the audio tracks are combined. you're hearing both adam howden (anders' normal voice) and the guy who does justice.

and it does change your argument significantly if they're not autonomous. one inherently can't be a puppet of the other.

and i could paste a picture of fenris smiling coyly and then glowing in rage and it would be just as unconvincing. we deal in words here, bro diddly.

Modifié par ademska, 21 juillet 2011 - 07:59 .

[Wulfram]

ademska wrote...

actually, while there are two voice actors, in every instance where you hear justice's va -- with the exception of the fade in night terrors -- the audio tracks are combined. you're hearing both adam howden (anders' normal voice) and the guy who does justice.

That's pretty cool

and it does change your argument significantly if they're not autonomous. one inherently can't be a puppet of the other.

Puppets are by definition not autonomous, really.  Plus, I'm not really sure what difference it makes.  Either Anders is a puppet of Justice, or the angry glowing side of Janders is dominant - it amounts to the same thing to me.

[ademska]

Wulfram wrote...

Puppets are by definition not autonomous, really.  Plus, I'm not really sure what difference it makes.  Either Anders is a puppet of Justice, or the angry glowing side of Janders is dominant - it amounts to the same thing to me.

you're still operating on the assumption that one must be dominant, and that's simply not true. if neither is autonomous, then neither is dominant.

ipgd's linked post was all about how janders is a colloid being, and that the two are no longer separate entities, but rather one, new personality. 'justice' and 'anders' only exist anymore as artificial constructs within his mind, the true 'being' is janders.

[Sialater]

ademska wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Puppets are by definition not autonomous, really.  Plus, I'm not really sure what difference it makes.  Either Anders is a puppet of Justice, or the angry glowing side of Janders is dominant - it amounts to the same thing to me.

you're still operating on the assumption that one must be dominant, and that's simply not true. if neither is autonomous, then neither is dominant.

ipgd's linked post was all about how janders is a colloid being, and that the two are no longer separate entities, but rather one, new personality. 'justice' and 'anders' only exist anymore as artificial constructs within his mind, the true 'being' is janders.

I thought they were separate on the Rival path?  Or did I miss something?

[Wulfram]

ademska wrote...

you're still operating on the assumption that one must be dominant, and that's simply not true.

I don't assume one must be dominant.  I conclude that one is, based on my observations of Anders' behaviour.

if neither is autonomous, then neither is dominant.

I don't see that logic at all

ipgd's linked post was all about how janders is a colloid being, and that the two are no longer separate entities, but rather one, new personality. 'justice' and 'anders' only exist anymore as artificial constructs within his mind, the true 'being' is janders.

Since Glowing Angry Guy is an observable phenomenon, I disagree.  Justice and Anders to me seem little more united than Connor and his demonic possessor.

[maxernst]

I wonder how much of the way one views Justice and Anders is colored by whether or not Ella is killed on the first playthrough.

[Amondra]

Wulfram wrote...

ipgd wrote...

He does not want to murder them. He wants to free them, whether they want freedom or are willing to fight for it or not. Ella's case was also, again, a fit of rage, and was the only instance of such a thing in 7 years, so I don't think it has much bearing on an analysis of Anders's rational motivations outside of fits of rage. He does not murder Orsino.

Justice wants to end the injustice and punish the guilty.  He cares nothing for whether mages live to enjoy that freedom, and, as we see in Dissent, considers those who submit as worthy of death.

And the destruction of the chantry and provocation of the extermination of the Circle is nothing if not a fit of rage.  One which has been building for seven years.

As I've gone over many a time, I have a different idea of how the Anders/Justice merger works, so I disagree. I do not think "Anders" or "Justice" are truly autonomous entities.

I don't know if they're truly autonomous, but there's a clear difference between

and


They even have different voice actors!

Whether they are seen as aspects of the same composite entity, or two entities in the same mind, or a person suffering from demonic possession, it doesn't really change my argument.  And it's easiest to refer to them as Justice and Anders.

Despite how I am writing my fiction, I really think Anders isn't sure if he and Justice are actually one, or if they are one in the sense they share a body as Justice is physically in him.  Because he bounces around.

Me personally, think Justice is still his own enitity I guess, just he heavy influences Anders and because Justice's 'thoughts' are often more then likely going off with Anders, it confuses him.  I don't think the circle ever really talked about physical possession like this.  So it could all be knew to Anders and he is just grabbing at straws so it makes sense to him, because I mean he is doing things he never thougut he would be doing as a whole.  The old Anders was rather selfish.  The whole thing must be scary. 

[ipgd]

Wulfram wrote...

Since Glowing Angry Guy is an observable phenomenon, I disagree.  Justice and Anders to me seem little more united than Connor and his demonic possessor.

If Anders and Justice are not fully merged, then what theories do you propose for reconciling his constradictory statements regarding Anders and Justice being fully merged? I can not think of any satisfactory psychological justifications for Anders being emotionally dishonest about being merged with Justice as I can for his statements attributing more autonomy to Justice than he might actually have. There are outright inconsistencies in his descriptions and behavior that need to be explained and I have not seen any "separatist" theories that do so convincingly.

Puppets are by definition not autonomous, really. Plus, I'm not really sure what difference it makes. Either Anders is a puppet of Justice, or the angry glowing side of Janders is dominant - it amounts to the same thing to me.

It's an irrelevant matter, because if they are completely merged, "Anders" and "Justice" do not exist. They would be artificial psychological constructs that the third, distinct entity, Janders, has anthropomorphized within his own mind in order to respectively encapsulate his positive qualities and his negative qualities, in effect creating a convenient scapegoat on which he pushes all of his unsavory aspects onto in order to absolve "Anders", whom he (Janders) wants to identify with, of blame for his thoughts and actions.

[Giggles_Manically]

I am under the impression that in act 1 and act 2 Anders and Justice exist as two separate people.

By act 3 I think that:
Friend Anders and Justice form a new personality.
Rival Anders and Justice fight more, causing them to stay separate, but for Justice to become MORE pissed until he takes over.

[Heidenreich]

AstraDrakkar wrote...

Ya know, it's kind of odd that I started out playing this game as a true blue Fengirl and now I prefer Anders. I've scratched my head many times wondering how that came about.

Is there anyone else here in my position? If so, could you tell me why your preference changed? I feel the need for enlightenment today.

I'm still a true-blue Fengirl. I just also appricate Anders, but then, I was a Die-hard Anderstian before my first playthrough. My poor, nieve Rogue!Hawke ;p

At the end of the day, both male characters lend to gloriousness, and while it seems as if most Fenris fans don't particularly enjoy Anders, more then a few of us Anders lovers are also Fenris lovers, or at least Fenris-understanders ;p

As for me, I went Anders - to Fenris - to Anders. Anders, thanks to DO:OA, then Fenris thanks to Blind-Jenga, and now I'm swinging around to Anders again, mostly because of this thread ;p

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Metaphorically, the differences between this thread and the Fenris thread are very similar to the differences between Anders and Fenris.

The Anders thread is contentious, always at war with itself, filled with self hate, but easily able to fall deeply in love with whoever shows it kindness... and even with people who argue, as long as they do so civilly. It's too smart for its own good, obsessed with history and wall-of-text manifestos, and devoted to the cause of mage justice... while at the same time, sometimes it wishes it could just be Awakening Anders again. It loves Ser Pounce, and Pie, and Justice-as-he-was. There's much left unknown, but little unsaid. It's also completely insane, but insane in a way never before seen. The Anders thread knows of Anders' imperfections and seeks to explore them, crack them open, map them entirely.

The Fenris thread is calm, happy, and devoted. If anyone attacks it, or even subtly counters its fundamental disposition, it will react impulsively, defensively. It is very pretty, if a bit gruff and unfocused when conflict arises. When there is no conflict, there is wine, and beauty, and single-minded love. The Fenris thread enjoys the little, forgivable, quirky flaws but does not want to map the deeper shadows that may or may not lie below the surface. They would rather just move on, and be free.

[Sinaxi]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Metaphorically, the differences between this thread and the Fenris thread are very similar to the differences between Anders and Fenris.

The Anders thread is contentious, always at war with itself, filled with self hate, but easily able to fall deeply in love with whoever shows it kindness... and even with people who argue, as long as they do so civilly. It's too smart for its own good, obsessed with history and wall-of-text manifestos, and devoted to the cause of mage justice... while at the same time, sometimes it wishes it could just be Awakening Anders again. It loves Ser Pounce, and Pie, and Justice-as-he-was. There's much left unknown, but little unsaid. It's also completely insane, but insane in a way never before seen. The Anders thread knows of Anders' imperfections and seeks to explore them, crack them open, map them entirely.

The Fenris thread is calm, happy, and devoted. If anyone attacks it, or even subtly counters its fundamental disposition, it will react impulsively, defensively. It is very pretty, if a bit gruff and unfocused when conflict arises. When there is no conflict, there is wine, and beauty, and single-minded love. The Fenris thread enjoys the little, forgivable, quirky flaws but does not want to map the deeper shadows that may or may not lie below the surface. They would rather just move on, and be free.

Hah! That made me kind of smile.