57020 réponses à ce sujet

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Arquen wrote...

I don't think Nate would have gone for it to be honest. In fact I'm still unsure why Anders was so willing to merge. Plus it was Justice wanting to help Anders as well. I just don't think either of them could predict what was going to happen after they merged.

A dead host with no soul and no mind is one thing, but didn't they consider that it would be BOTH of them in there? How did that not seem like it would be a problem? I mean Anders' story explains a bit but there are still so many questions that form out of that merger. I guess we will just never truly know, LOL.

If you read Anders' short story, it becomes a lot clearer as to why he accepted the merger. He was basically cornered... they'd separated him from the rest of the Awakening crew, assigned a templar to "watch" him, and basically snatched away the limited amount of freedom he had from being a warden. It's my theory, based on both the short story and dialogue in game, that Anders had a strong inkling that it wouldn't be sunshine and roses, for him at least. I don't think he had any idea how badly it would go, but I got a very strong feeling that Anders knew that it would mean giving up any hope of a normal future or a life and pursuing the mage cause full-time pretty much until he died. He had finally realized that even being with the wardens probably meant templar oppression for the rest of his life, so given the choice between letting them kick him around and giving up all he was in order to fight for others... he chose the latter.

I think he probably imagined himself traveling around as a glowy mage-knight-errant, righting wrongs and freeing mages. He would now have the courage to stand and fight rather than turn and run, since he had finally learned that there was nowhere to run, not really. I think Anders and Justice probably figured it would be a "you work the wheel, I'll work the pedals" kind of situation, where they'd both be partially in control, working together to accomplish things they couldn't accomplish alone.

Honestly, it seems to me that Justice's transformation into Vengeance is the only reason there's any serious problem here. Everything else about the plan seems solid enough. And that's what doesn't make sense to me: I understand why Justice would become Vengeance: confronted with direct knowledge of all the horrors Anders has witnessed, and in direct contact with Anders' own anger, it makes sense. What doesn't make sense to me is that nobody in the entire game even thinks to try to reverse that corruption.

What's more, the only time we see Vengeance actually being a problem is Ella, and that scene doesn't make sense to me either, in the context of the rest of Justice/Vengeance's actions throughout the game. If Justice is so crazy that he'll confused friend for foe over the slightest misunderstanding, that should show up more. We aren't able to get a consistent picture of what Justice or Vengeance are really like most of the time, either in or out of Anders' head.

/ramble


source

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 25 juillet 2011 - 04:31 .

[SurelyForth]

I think the Ella situation was probably heightened because of Alrik's presence. He's the one who tranquiled Karl, after all, and Anders had encountered him before...and it doesn't sound like that went too well. Knowing that, and hearing first hand what he says to Ella, probably triggered something deep and extreme...it was personal in a way most of the injustices Hawke and Anders encounter aren't.

[Sinaxi]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

If you read Anders' short story, it becomes a lot clearer as to why he accepted the merger. He was basically cornered... they'd separated him from the rest of the Awakening crew, assigned a templar to "watch" him, and basically snatched away the limited amount of freedom he had from being a warden. It's my theory, based on both the short story and dialogue in game, that Anders had a strong inkling that it wouldn't be sunshine and roses, for him at least. I don't think he had any idea how badly it would go, but I got a very strong feeling that Anders knew that it would mean giving up any hope of a normal future or a life and pursuing the mage cause full-time pretty much until he died. He had finally realized that even being with the wardens probably meant templar oppression for the rest of his life, so given the choice between letting them kick him around and giving up all he was in order to fight for others... he chose the latter.

I think he probably imagined himself traveling around as a glowy mage-knight-errant, righting wrongs and freeing mages. He would now have the courage to stand and fight rather than turn and run, since he had finally learned that there was nowhere to run, not really. I think Anders and Justice probably figured it would be a "you work the wheel, I'll work the pedals" kind of situation, where they'd both be partially in control, working together to accomplish things they couldn't accomplish alone.

Honestly, it seems to me that Justice's transformation into Vengeance is the only reason there's any serious problem here. Everything else about the plan seems solid enough. And that's what doesn't make sense to me: I understand why Justice would become Vengeance: confronted with direct knowledge of all the horrors Anders has witnessed, and in direct contact with Anders' own anger, it makes sense. What doesn't make sense to me is that nobody in the entire game even thinks to try to reverse that corruption.

What's more, the only time we see Vengeance actually being a problem is Ella, and that scene doesn't make sense to me either, in the context of the rest of Justice/Vengeance's actions throughout the game. If Justice is so crazy that he'll confused friend for foe over the slightest misunderstanding, that should show up more. We aren't able to get a consistent picture of what Justice or Vengeance are really like most of the time, either in or out of Anders' head.

/ramble

To me it has never really made much sense either. I've often wondered if anyone else thought it was possible Justice is the reason that Anders became so angry. In DA:A he seems much more cool, he deflects with humor a lot more, and I know that deep down at his core this stuff is affecting him, but I also got the impression that Justice is just SO black and white that I've wondered if it's only Anders own perception that Justice changed to Vengeance because of him.

Ok, I'm not making any sense, actually. Ummm. I'm just trying to say I wonder if Anders anger really started more once he merged with Justice, because Justice turns everything into a "right" or "wrong" category. How is Justice any different than he was in DA:A? Besides freaking out at like 2 points in DA2? (I haven't played Awakenings, so it's an actual question lol)

It just seems to me that like...Anders says Justice turned into Vengeance because of his own anger but what if it wasn't really his fault at all? Justice doesn't exactly understand human customs, he tells Anders he is enslaving a kitten in DA:A lol!

This post was supposed to make a lot more sense. I'm just throwing out ideas though. I'm not sure what could cause a spirit to change of its volition if it wasn't Anders fault, but "Vengeance" does not seem too different from Justice. If Justice truly changed into a different sort of "spirit" would Vengeance not be considered a demonic aspect? Demons are made up of singular aspects of human weakness, so would Justice now be considered a demon instead of a good spirit? I just don't think he is a demon. The word abomination is thrown around a lot concerning Anders, but Wynne had a spirit inside her as well that saved her. She is not an abomination, in my eyes.

But then that gets into the argument of whether or not Anders truly has free will from Justice like Wynne does from her spirit of faith. And depends on if you rival or friend Anders. The spirit inside Wynne does take over at points, does it not? In order to save Wynne or the party? It's not too much unlike Anders situation.

Modifié par Tidra, 25 juillet 2011 - 06:51 .

[Sinaxi]

If he says things that like while he's inhabiting Kristoff I think it's not too far of a stretch to say that even though he is a spirit, being out of the Fade and in the real world he is probably experiencing feelings that are close to human. He has all of Kristoff's memories and I think that makes a huge difference in making him feel more grounded to Thedas and he ends up meeting all these different people, they essentially become his "friends" more or less.

It's hard to say I guess, since spirits in general seem like very kind creatures. The spirit that inhabits Wynne goes out of its way to save her, it must have thought Wynne was a particularly worthy individual to do this. All of Justice's epilogue endings end with him leaving Kristoff's body for his wife, Aura. That is "Justice" for Aura, but it also is a sign of caring for not just the body he inhabits but the people who knew that person. It's a human feeling to not want to die, not necessarily something I would expect from a spirit.

Yes, you could say that "technically" they are abominations but it's just not really the case. Mages that are actual abominations have zero sense of self left basically, their entire form even changes when the demon decides to come out. They are blinded by a wanting for power for themselves, not the opposite. Justice/Anders are blinded by a cause that (while it can be argued is selfish in the actions he takes) is ultimately selfless.

Modifié par Tidra, 25 juillet 2011 - 07:08 .

[Amondra]

I didn't see Justice's actions as demon like. He was quite upset and scared when he first got out of the fade, He didn't want you to kill him because he was unsure if he would return to the Fade at that point. No spirit or demon wants to die, that is a survival thing and I am sure they all have it.

Outside of that he struck me kinda like a child, he doesn't know emotions, he only knows the extremes of them. He looks to the Warden for console to make sure he is making the right choices to further explain things. My Warden was really nice to him and held his hand, in the end when he speaks of envying Kristoff's love for his wife, I told him there was nothing wrong with wanting to be more then just a seeker of justice. He agreed he wanted to be something more.

I took it as he was becoming something more complex. Just because he wanted to feel love doesn't make him a demon, like he said we live in this world where we deal with all these things, not every mortal who wants love falls into lust or desire, in such a way the demon is portrayed

I think both he and Anders lost their light when the Warden left and the Templar arrived. I am saying this under the idea the Warden was kind to both(as mine was).

I think Justice just needs to find that beauty in the world that he saw when he was with the Warden, and he will/is become something else entirely. Something rather beautiful too I think.

[Sinaxi]

This is completely off topic, but I've been wondering something. I know there was the Arcane Warrior spec in DA:O, but from an off-game perspective...why would it not be possible for a Mage to be like, uh, a rogue? Or something? Rogues and Warriors aren't born that way, they learn to hone those skills. A Mage has power, yes, but they still must learn to hone those skills. Would it not be possible for there to be a dual-wielding Mage out there that had learned the skills of Dueling?

I mean, I guess it is, since there is the Arcane Warrior specialization but it makes it seem like it's the most uncommon thing in the world (and again, that's from a game perspective where you have to learn that because you can't even equip the weapons otherwise lol) But, really, it just makes a lot of sense to me. A Mage could be so much more unstoppable if they learned skills of subterfuge. A Mage trained in the school of Entropy has so much power over the minds of their opponents, which is why it's surprising to me that the Codex entries from Origins say that the School of Spirit is more confused with Blood Magic. In Origins the spells from Entropy dealt directly with the mind, even with sucking life-force from enemies and the residual life-force from dead bodies which sort of matches up with the Blood Magic spells in DA2.

I guess it's just not necessary considering the incredible power that Mages can already command. But they would be like doubly difficult to kill if they could actually defend themselves in close-quarters.
That, and the armour Mage Hawke wears in the game isn't even cloth lol, it's like leather. Which I'm grateful for.



Edit- It kinda makes me sad, I didn't play Awakenings but it seems like if I did Justice would like...like my Warden a whole lot more than he seems to like Hawke. In DA2 he just seems annoyed by the fact that Anders is in love with her, versus the impression that I'm getting he had a lot of respect for the Warden? If that was the case in DA:A?

Modifié par Tidra, 25 juillet 2011 - 07:55 .

[Wulfram]

There was a mage in the Fereldan tower who wanted to teach apprentices the use of weapons. The templars appear to have disapproved.

http://dragonage.wik...ricular_Studies

For an apostate like Hawke, it would be extremely sensible to learn how to fight without magic since it's not something you really want to reveal to everyone. I tend pretend that my MageHawke is able to use her staff as a simple quarterstaff for those occasions like when you're fighting in front of the Knight-Captain and don't want to wave your "I'm a mage" sign about.

[Jean]

classes in dragon age confuse me. most of the warrior classes, more specifically templar, spirit warrior and reavers seems to use some kind of magic anyways. /hypocrites

[Sinaxi]

Oh! Good point. I forgot the Templars would flip out. Since like I said, it would make Mages so freaking powerful imo. They already have such great kiting abilities but like, I can just imagine how useful it would be for them. It makes perfect sense to me that Hawke would know at least basics, considering Carver grew up having to learn to use a sword. I prefer using the staff shown on the trailers, that has a blade end to it.

[Sinaxi]

Also, Codex Entries for some stuff of Malcolm's from the Mage Pack lead me to believe he did mostly hide his Magic by acting like a warrior.

"He often posed as a mercenary, and his substantial martial skills easily secured him positions in different bands."

Then it says on another codex that he was discovered by the Templars in Kirkwall because he had used his magic to heal someone while they were fighting the Carta. Meaning I take it he wasn't using any other magic during the battle.

[DragonRacer]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

*snips everything I 100% agree with*

I think he probably imagined himself traveling around as a glowy mage-knight-errant, righting wrongs and freeing mages. He would now have the courage to stand and fight rather than turn and run, since he had finally learned that there was nowhere to run, not really. I think Anders and Justice probably figured it would be a "you work the wheel, I'll work the pedals" kind of situation, where they'd both be partially in control, working together to accomplish things they couldn't accomplish alone.

Honestly, it seems to me that Justice's transformation into Vengeance is the only reason there's any serious problem here. Everything else about the plan seems solid enough. And that's what doesn't make sense to me: I understand why Justice would become Vengeance: confronted with direct knowledge of all the horrors Anders has witnessed, and in direct contact with Anders' own anger, it makes sense. What doesn't make sense to me is that nobody in the entire game even thinks to try to reverse that corruption.

The first bolded part is an absolutely superb summation of how I think the two expected the merger to work.

The second bolded part is something that drives me batty. As a player, I totally advocate Therapy/Counseling for Justice/Vengeance. I was extremely disappointed during "Night Terrors" when I dragged Anders into the Fade with me and thought I could FINALLY have a face-to-face with the J-Man and attempt to talk him down off that ledge ("Noooo!! Don't jump into the Demonic Abyss. You have so much to live for!").

[Wulfram]

Justice in DA2 seems to want to go back to the fade, which is very undemonlike. Going by Anders' test on Keran, there's no way a Demon would sit there and and let Hawke kill him.

Though not being a demon doesn't mean Justice is a good guy.

Modifié par Wulfram, 25 juillet 2011 - 08:45 .

[Sinaxi]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

I suppose it's entirely possible for someone with magic to double as a warrior or rogue. Malcolm spent years as a mercenary using his considerable skills within martial arts, and in my head canon he passes that to his children so that they can defend themselves without being exposed as well. It's the only way I can explain Mage!Hawke running around like she does, anyway. But in DAO the Mage!Warden is a Circle mage with no training in physical combat, and in DA2 the devs wanted stronger differences between classes. Being skilled at both magic and melee would make the character a little OP I think.

To be honest, Justice struck me as closer to a demon in Awakenings than DA2. His increasing fascination with the mortal world, his admitted reluctance to leave, his desire to feel love... while in DA2, he is certainly a dangerous spirit, but singlemindedly preoccupied with justice for mages and completely uninterested in worldly desires even when they're handed to him on a silver platter.

EDIT: Wow, I was just double-ninja'd. I have to learn how to type faster, God.

No, I know. I know that's why they don't really let you double in the game, but outside the game it makes perfect sense to me. And yes, it does make them OP which is why I love the idea of it hahaha. I can only imagine my Hawke going "hey uh, Isabela, so how about some duelist training?! !" Also, it's another thing that bothered me about the Smuggler/Mercenary jobs. I prefer the Smuggling job, but like...wouldn't that require my Mage Hawke to uh, learn how to pick locks? And isn't that a good survival skill to have? I'd assume someone like Malcolm would know how to do that. In fact, I really wish we were able to like, meet him or something. He seems like such an awesome character. Hawke's dad sort of rocks.
Both the Smugglers/Mercenaries remark that you are a mage and how it will come in handy, but it still makes sense to me that the Smuggling job would take a lot more than just being a brute like the Mercenary job. You sort of have to keep the things you do under wraps, Athrenil even remarks that they are like small-time compared to the thieves guild which uh, requires...thievery...and lock picking. lol? And Mage Hawke has none of these talents in game, but in theory outside the game she actually should.

[Wulfram]

There's this on youtube. Apparently cut content about Aveline training the other party members

[Sinaxi]

Lmao. Anders. "Why the hell do I need to learn this?!" And omg, Merrill's scream is too cute. Anders is like "i'm a healer, kthx. I don't like swords. I like kittens."

I definitely prefer the idea of my Hawke knowing how to use daggers in combat now. (I mean, she also decides to randomly stab people with small knives so like...wtf)

And lol@ Mabari.

[Sinaxi]

By the way, I watched some videos on youtube where Varric is like summarizing each of the companions. I think it's supposed to be in the signature edition or something? But I absolutely loved what he said about each of them. I really am not sure where the "Tales" come from, does anyone know?

This is Anders:

Fenris:

Isabela: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSvMXXfhL3c

[Giggles_Manically]

I dont either.

But those were cool, and great sum ups for each character!

[Sinaxi]

UM. I'm OFFICIALLY creeped out. I never heard Sandal say any of this in my playthroughs. Sandal is like a seer or something, I swear it.

Modifié par Tidra, 25 juillet 2011 - 09:21 .