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[Nivilant]

EnchantedEyes1 wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

"I'll come for you and your precious Anders"

Yes, that was it! They did a great job with that line because that really got under my skin more than any other comment I'd heard yet.

Oh gosh that line made me seethe. In my mind Revi Hawke was snarling after that little snipe. Don't be threatening the Champion and her lover, silly spoon.

And that rivalmance thing is just....wah. Justice you little-!! He reminds me of an overbearing father who has set goals in mind for his child, love be damned. Interesting that Anders seemed to be about to undo his plans.

That scene really does show precisely how badly Anders is losing to Justice though. One would hope the chantry thing will calm the cranky spirit/demon (spiron?) at least for a time. If not we'd better start contemplating a separation right now!

[Lady Jess]

Nivilant wrote...

EnchantedEyes1 wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

"I'll come for you and your precious Anders"

Yes, that was it! They did a great job with that line because that really got under my skin more than any other comment I'd heard yet.

Oh gosh that line made me seethe. In my mind Revi Hawke was snarling after that little snipe. Don't be threatening the Champion and her lover, silly spoon.

And that rivalmance thing is just....wah. Justice you little-!! He reminds me of an overbearing father who has set goals in mind for his child, love be damned. Interesting that Anders seemed to be about to undo his plans.

That scene really does show precisely how badly Anders is losing to Justice though. One would hope the chantry thing will calm the cranky spirit/demon (spiron?) at least for a time. If not we'd better start contemplating a separation right now!

In my mind when Hawke and Anders left, they headed straight for Tevinter. There they'd be safe from the chantry for a bit at least, maybe find a way to gget Justice out of there, and if not..hide until what must be done must be done, but she'll be damned if anyone but HER is going to do it. Anders already has a shortened lifespan, by then he has what...15 years, 20 at the most? I mean whats the point of screaming for his death? He already has a death sentence in his blood.

Modifié par Lady Jess, 13 mars 2011 - 12:11 .

[leggywillow]

Lady Jess wrote...

In my mind when Hawke and Anders left, they headed straight for Tevinter. There they'd be safe from the chantry for a bit at least, maybe find a way to gget Justice out of there, and if not..hide until what must be done must be done, but she'll be damned if anyone but HER is going to do it. Anders already has a shortened lifespan, by then he has what...15 years, 20 at the most? I mean whats the point of screaming for his death? He already has a death sentence in his blood.

This, exactly, is what my Hawke and Anders are doing (until Bioware thwarts my plans, anyway).

[BlastedLands]

leggywillow wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

In my mind when Hawke and Anders left, they headed straight for Tevinter. There they'd be safe from the chantry for a bit at least, maybe find a way to gget Justice out of there, and if not..hide until what must be done must be done, but she'll be damned if anyone but HER is going to do it. Anders already has a shortened lifespan, by then he has what...15 years, 20 at the most? I mean whats the point of screaming for his death? He already has a death sentence in his blood.

This, exactly, is what my Hawke and Anders are doing (until Bioware thwarts my plans, anyway).

hehe.... nice how i'm not the only one. my bets are on flemeth though. since she thinks hawke is important and she is undeniably badass, there has to be something she can do:whistle:
don't mind bargaining again with the spooky lady.

Modifié par Haerja, 13 mars 2011 - 12:18 .

[Astranagant]

Lady Jess wrote...

Anders already has a shortened lifespan, by then he has what...15 years, 20 at the most? I mean whats the point of screaming for his death? He already has a death sentence in his blood.

Yeah, it's better to let him live and see you side with the Templars if you really want to get back at him. I mean, really, you just got my sister sentenced to death and you expect me to approve?
 
What really bothered me wasn't him blasting the Chantry to smithereens, it's the fact that in spite of his apparent disapproval of blood magic, he still thinks that mages should be free to do what they did to Hawke's mother without any control or oversight from authorities.

He never makes any secret of his admiration for the Tevinter Imperium, and I can only imagine what kinds of horrors he'd support just because mages were doing it to stick it to the Chantry.

[Lady Jess]

Astranagant wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

Anders already has a shortened lifespan, by then he has what...15 years, 20 at the most? I mean whats the point of screaming for his death? He already has a death sentence in his blood.

Yeah, it's better to let him live and see you side with the Templars if you really want to get back at him. I mean, really, you just got my sister sentenced to death and you expect me to approve?
 
What really bothered me wasn't him blasting the Chantry to smithereens, it's the fact that in spite of his apparent disapproval of blood magic, he still thinks that mages should be free to do what they did to Hawke's mother without any control or oversight from authorities.

He never makes any secret of his admiration for the Tevinter Imperium, and I can only imagine what kinds of horrors he'd support just because mages were doing it to stick it to the Chantry.

Well my Hawke was a mage and her sister died before Anders ever came into the picture.  And i happen to think the guy that killed my mother would have found a way to do so with or without magic because he is just all  "it puts the lotion on it's skin!!!" crazy anyhow.

[mellifera]

Lady Jess wrote...

EnchantedEyes1 wrote...

TripLight wrote...

BTW, imagining Anders and Bethany are slowly romancing each other is actually helping me not romance him. It's working for me and my roleplay, so I am putting this out there in case anyone else is having trouble not romancing Anders. I am also leaving Bethany home, so both Anders and myself have hard reasons for what happens later in the story.

Edit: Since we didn't get a shirtless Anders in-game, I give you fan art of it.

Love the art, thank you! I just got to the part where he blew up the chantry. Even though I knew what was coming, my heart was beating fast, lol. 

I think I'll try that trick you mention with Bethany and Anders, but don't know if I'm ready to let him go quite yet, lol. My god, why am I so obsessed with this man?! I liked him well enough in DAA but this...is madness 

And I know it's wrong of me but I really wanted to punch Seb there when he was threatening me because I let Anders live and he called him "special" or somethin like that. He's d@mn lucky I wasn't an evil mage and *let* him leave... 

"I'll come for you and your precious[/i] Anders"

I don't think Seb is unjustified in his feelings but that whole scene I was just staring at his awful face. Yeesh.

[BlastedLands]

Lady Jess wrote...

Astranagant wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

Anders already has a shortened lifespan, by then he has what...15 years, 20 at the most? I mean whats the point of screaming for his death? He already has a death sentence in his blood.

Yeah, it's better to let him live and see you side with the Templars if you really want to get back at him. I mean, really, you just got my sister sentenced to death and you expect me to approve?
 
What really bothered me wasn't him blasting the Chantry to smithereens, it's the fact that in spite of his apparent disapproval of blood magic, he still thinks that mages should be free to do what they did to Hawke's mother without any control or oversight from authorities.

He never makes any secret of his admiration for the Tevinter Imperium, and I can only imagine what kinds of horrors he'd support just because mages were doing it to stick it to the Chantry.

Well my Hawke was a mage and her sister died before Anders ever came into the picture.  And i happen to think the guy that killed my mother would have found a way to do so with or without magic because he is just all  "it puts the lotion on it's skin!!!" crazy anyhow.

yeah, no one's saying mages shouldn't live under the same rules as anyone, following common guidelines. but to put them under general suspicion is just crazy. everyone is able to kill someone, they don't need magic for that after all.
and to turn that around, mages should be free to do what hawkes family did, trying to raise a family and live a modest life for example.
if there should be a institution to watch over them, it should rather serve the purpose to help those who struggle with their powers, not constrain all of them on spec.

[graciegrace]

When is the trigger for his Questioning Beliefs in Act 3? It's been in my journal and the arrow appears over his head in the clinic since the Justice quest, but everytime I talk to him it doesn't trigger a cutscene

[Astranagant]

Lady Jess wrote...

Astranagant wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

Anders already has a shortened lifespan, by then he has what...15 years, 20 at the most? I mean whats the point of screaming for his death? He already has a death sentence in his blood.

Yeah, it's better to let him live and see you side with the Templars if you really want to get back at him. I mean, really, you just got my sister sentenced to death and you expect me to approve?
 
What really bothered me wasn't him blasting the Chantry to smithereens, it's the fact that in spite of his apparent disapproval of blood magic, he still thinks that mages should be free to do what they did to Hawke's mother without any control or oversight from authorities.

He never makes any secret of his admiration for the Tevinter Imperium, and I can only imagine what kinds of horrors he'd support just because mages were doing it to stick it to the Chantry.

Well my Hawke was a mage and her sister died before Anders ever came into the picture.  And i happen to think the guy that killed my mother would have found a way to do so with or without magic because he is just all  "it puts the lotion on it's skin!!!" crazy anyhow.

Maybe he was crazy without being a blood mage, but it seems more likely he was crazy because he was a blood mage. Besides, magic was a major contributing factor.

The fact that it's possible in the Dragon Age world to murder women and combine their body parts into a frankenstein's monster-esque meat puppet/love doll which can then be magically reanimated was no doubt a major contributing factor to the culprit's behavior.

I don't imagine he would have gone all the way with that plan if he lived in a world where the body parts would simply rot away (he did assemble this over a course of years, after all.)

So I still get the feeling Anders would tolerate or support similar atrocities by the Magisters of Tevinter (just ask Fenris about that,) simply because they were doing it free of Chantry control.

Of course, the irony is that his actions didn't change anything, since Meredith was under the influence of the Idol and a peaceful solution (which Anders wanted to prevent at any cost, kind of telling,) would have been impossible anyway. And it's all playing into Flemeth's hands, and Anders' precious mages are no more likely to be on the winning end of that situation than the Chantry.

Haerja wrote...
yeah, no one's saying mages shouldn't live under the same rules as anyone, following common guidelines. but to put them under general suspicion is just crazy. everyone is able to kill someone, they don't need magic for that after all.
and to turn that around, mages should be free to do what hawkes family did, trying to raise a family and live a modest life for example.
if there should be a institution to watch over them, it should rather serve the purpose to help those who struggle with their powers, not constrain all of them on spec.

I never got the feeling that Anders thought that should be the case. His zealotry for absolute freedom for mages never struck me as having limits. He is willing to (and does) murder countless innocents to spark a bloody war between Templars and Mages, one in which countless innocent magi would be killed. He wants to remove the Chantry's control, and never offers any kind of suggestion that ordinary people should be protected from malicious mages.

And I'm not saying they should be imprisoned and sexually abused by Templars and made Tranquil (after all, my original beef was that he got Bethany a death sentence from the Templars.) Just that Anders never shows any real concern for the fact that mages can and do cause vastly more harm than ordinary people are capable of. Sure, he gets a niggling sense of disapproval when someone uses blood magic, but he seems to view it as simply a lifestyle choice that  should be an open option for all mages, regardless of the incomprehensible suffering it will cause to innocent people. That's what's so abhorrent about him for me.

Or rather, it's what's so abhorrent about the Hawkes who can gloss over such a vile philosophy for the sake of romantic love. A good person who's willing to stand by and allow unspeakable acts of cruelty is worse to me than the evil person who commits the acts. I think this applies to Anders.

Modifié par Astranagant, 13 mars 2011 - 01:07 .

[Aggie Punbot]

Quick question: normally when I do the Anders love scene and he's talking about how it would kill him to lose me, my Hawke says 'You're not going to lose me.' This time, however, she said 'This isn't going to fix that.' Does anyone know why this would have changed?

Modifié par TS2Aggie, 13 mars 2011 - 01:45 .

[leggywillow]

yukidama wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

"I'll come for you and your precious Anders"

I don't think Seb is unjustified in his feelings but that whole scene I was just staring at his awful face. Yeesh.

Me too.  I think Seb is 100% justified.  If I were in his position, I'd almost certainly demand blood.  Buuuut... I am a selfish, selfish gamer and Seb just didn't endear himself to me as much as Anders did.  I really didn't like Seb as much as I thought I would.  The super-religious characters never do, sadly (which makes me feel pretty guilty).

I just finished Sebastian's "Faith" quest, where Seb and Hawke try to convince the Grand Cleric to leave because someone may try to kill her.  All the while Anders is just standing there in the background, not saying anything, with his "I didn't do it" face. XD

[darkrose]

Valentia X wrote...
Vengeance can, and has been, justified. Or is Cousland evil for wanting to end the life of the man who destroyed her family? Is the City Elf wrong for wanting to avenge a raped cousin?

Isn't that the point though? Apply anger, resentment, and bitterness to the ideal of justice, shake with a dash of oppression, and you get a highly volitile concoction that's liable to go off at any moment and take out innocent bystanders. The Tabris origin is actually a perfect example. My Tabris always kills Vaughan, including going back and replaying so I can get the head shot. And if there's anyone in the game who deserves his fate, it's Vaughan. (which can make it weird to play male!Hawke, let me tell you)

But at the end of the origin story, what's changed? Shianni's still been raped. Nola and Nelaros are still dead. And the Tabris Warden gets to walk away. During the next months, she'll become the biggest BAMF in Ferelden. People who aren't terrified of her will often want to get in her pants. She's a dragonslayer, demon-hunter, and kingmaker. 

Meanwhile, as a direct result of her actions, the boot's coming down even harder than before on her people. There's a purge, and plague, and slavers, and it's hard to blame the elves who point their fingers at the one who lit the fuse and then ran off. 

I'm still very far from the end game (maybe if I stopped restarting so often...) and I honestly don't know what my mage Hawke is going to do. I can see him believing that Anders will have to pay, but whether that's living with what he's done or dying for it....I'll have to see. Ironically, being spoiled has made me more interested in getting to the end, so I can see how it all plays out.

[leggywillow]

TS2Aggie wrote...

Quick question: normally when I do the Anders love scene and he's talking about how it would kill him to lose me, my Hawke says 'You're not going to lose me.' This time, however, she said 'This isn't going to fix that.' Does anyone know why this would have changed?

Link to a video for reference in a minute.

That happened to me too, and I think it's the result of Hawke's dominant personality.  Does your Hawke mostly do humorous/purple dialogue?  That's who got the "This isn't going to fix that" line for me.  My aggressive Hawke was quite rude and said "You didn't come here to talk".  It must be the diplomatic/green dialogue that gets the line that actually makes sense.

[darkrose]

leggywillow wrote..

Oh noooo!  I forgot about Maric's "death".  Well, I am probably going to have write a crackfic about Maric, Hawke, and the Warden hanging out in Flemeth's Hero Dungeon at some point.

I SO want to read this!

[VampOrchid]

Batteries wrote...

www.youtube.com/watch

Very interesting. And sad.

This right here proves that it's not really Anders who decides to blow things up! I'm wondering if Justice is taking over more and more. I'm hoping later on there will be a way to show Justice that he's making a slave out of Anders, the same thing he's trying to prevent.

[BlastedLands]

Astranagant wrote...


I never got the feeling that Anders thought that should be the case. His zealotry for absolute freedom for mages never struck me as having limits. He is willing to (and does) murder countless innocents to spark a bloody war between Templars and Mages, one in which countless innocent magi would be killed. He wants to remove the Chantry's control, and never offers any kind of suggestion that ordinary people should be protected from malicious mages.

hm, i feel (leaving out the big boom, because that's entirely another topic) that there's no need for him to voice that sort of opinion, because it's simply a given.

And I'm not saying they should be imprisoned and sexually abused by Templars and made Tranquil (after all, my original beef was that he got Bethany a death sentence from the Templars.) Just that Anders never shows any real concern for the fact that mages can and do cause vastly more harm than ordinary people are capable of. Sure, he gets a niggling sense of disapproval when someone uses blood magic, but he seems to view it as simply a lifestyle choice that  should be an open option for all mages.

i don't believe mages are more dangerous than "normal" people. maybe on a different scale, yeah, but that's hard to grasp....
and the problem is that the things you mention DO happen for the sake of protecting the other population. and even if there were no dangerous, evil bloodmages anymore that wouldn't change, because those types of established institutions don't tend to change.
it's just like punish every human from city x because one of them did horrible things. it's just not rational, but solely based on fear and total lack of intergration.

[darkrose]

leggywillow wrote...

I just got some awesome banter between Fenris and Anders after Hawke sleeps with both of them and ALMOST DIED OF SQUEE.

Anders: You were an idiot to leave Hawke
Fenris: And you were fast enough to replace me
Anders: I love her.  You can't even imagine what that is.
Fenris: Do not bare your heart to me, mage.  Unless you would see me rip it out.

Wait...you can do that? If you do it in that order, do you have to choose Anders?

I want my Hawke to sleep with Anders, think, "Nope, too crazy," and end up with Fenris.

[VampOrchid]

I'm so looking forward to seeing where that "I'll get you and your precious Anders" comes in.

And here's a thought. What if BW, comes out with either DC or in the 3rd game they have this deal you're making with Flemeth to seperate justice from Anders. Now that would be cool.

[leggywillow]

darkrose wrote...

leggywillow wrote...

I just got some awesome banter between Fenris and Anders after Hawke sleeps with both of them and ALMOST DIED OF SQUEE.

Anders: You were an idiot to leave Hawke
Fenris: And you were fast enough to replace me
Anders: I love her.  You can't even imagine what that is.
Fenris: Do not bare your heart to me, mage.  Unless you would see me rip it out.

Wait...you can do that? If you do it in that order, do you have to choose Anders?

I want my Hawke to sleep with Anders, think, "Nope, too crazy," and end up with Fenris.

I haven't tried, but I'm certain you can get similar dialogue if you do it the other way around.  It wouldn't be exactly the same, since Fenris technically breaks up with Hawke after the romance scene (although he comes back later).

[HolyJellyfish]

leggywillow wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

In my mind when Hawke and Anders left, they headed straight for Tevinter. There they'd be safe from the chantry for a bit at least, maybe find a way to gget Justice out of there, and if not..hide until what must be done must be done, but she'll be damned if anyone but HER is going to do it. Anders already has a shortened lifespan, by then he has what...15 years, 20 at the most? I mean whats the point of screaming for his death? He already has a death sentence in his blood.

This, exactly, is what my Hawke and Anders are doing (until Bioware thwarts my plans, anyway).

I have a hard time imagining that Anders would be mentally healthy in Tevinter. Justice would be likely pissed at seeing the injustice of elf-slaves as he did Mages - though Anders would have a less personal investment.

[Astranagant]

Haerja wrote...

Astranagant wrote...


I never got the feeling that Anders thought that should be the case. His zealotry for absolute freedom for mages never struck me as having limits. He is willing to (and does) murder countless innocents to spark a bloody war between Templars and Mages, one in which countless innocent magi would be killed. He wants to remove the Chantry's control, and never offers any kind of suggestion that ordinary people should be protected from malicious mages.

hm, i feel (leaving out the big boom, because that's entirely another topic) that there's no need for him to voice that sort of opinion, because it's simply a given.

And I'm not saying they should be imprisoned and sexually abused by Templars and made Tranquil (after all, my original beef was that he got Bethany a death sentence from the Templars.) Just that Anders never shows any real concern for the fact that mages can and do cause vastly more harm than ordinary people are capable of. Sure, he gets a niggling sense of disapproval when someone uses blood magic, but he seems to view it as simply a lifestyle choice that  should be an open option for all mages.

i don't believe mages are more dangerous than "normal" people. maybe on a different scale, yeah, but that's hard to grasp....
and the problem is that the things you mention DO happen for the sake of protecting the other population. and even if there were no dangerous, evil bloodmages anymore that wouldn't change, because those types of established institutions don't tend to change.
it's just like punish every human from city x because one of them did horrible things. it's just not rational, but solely based on fear and total lack of intergration.

The issue is that mages can be a serious danger to others even unintentionally, like with Feynriel. He's got demons ravenously clawing at the edges of his sleeping mind. Every mage is a foothold into the mortal world for utterly evil entities which are desperate to enter it.

Magic is a curse for those mages who aren't bad people, but it's a blessing for those who would welcome such monstrosities in order to do more harm.

And I'm not saying all mages should be punished for one's actions, I'm saying that regardless of intent they're a danger, just look at the case of Connor in DAO. Those magic users are also victims, but the greater good has to be weighed against the personal freedom of a few individuals. For every well-trained, vigilant, and self-controlled mage like Bethany, there are countless more mook mages you fight in DA2 who are either unwilling or incapable of controlling themselves for the sake of others' safety.

Nobody in the real world would argue that a clinically insane person who poses a severe danger to the community through no choice or fault of their own should be set loose unsupervised.

Modifié par Astranagant, 13 mars 2011 - 01:18 .

[Souris]

Astranagant wrote...

I never got the feeling that Anders thought that should be the case. His zealotry for absolute freedom for mages never struck me as having limits. He is willing to (and does) murder countless innocents to spark a bloody war between Templars and Mages, one in which countless innocent magi would be killed. He wants to remove the Chantry's control, and never offers any kind of suggestion that ordinary people should be protected from malicious mages.

And I'm not saying they should be imprisoned and sexually abused by Templars and made Tranquil (after all, my original beef was that he got Bethany a death sentence from the Templars.) Just that Anders never shows any real concern for the fact that mages can and do cause vastly more harm than ordinary people are capable of. Sure, he gets a niggling sense of disapproval when someone uses blood magic, but he seems to view it as simply a lifestyle choice that  should be an open option for all mages, regardless of the incomprehensible suffering it will cause to innocent people. That's what's so abhorrent about him for me.

Or rather, it's what's so abhorrent about the Hawkes who can gloss over such a vile philosophy for the sake of romantic love. A good person who's willing to stand by and allow unspeakable acts of cruelty is worse to me than the evil person who commits the acts. I think this applies to Anders.

To be fair, I don't think Anders condones blood mages at all, from what I gathered about his character. I feel as though he thinks it's more of an act of desperation, like they feel as though they have no other option than turn to blood magic to try and escape. If you have he and Merrill in your party I know he harasses her about it more than once, and he never actually resorts to using it himself (not that what he did was valid, I was shocked, and it broke my heart).

I feel as though he is more misguided than evil, his intentions were good, in a way, but his means were most definitely not. They do not justify the end, for sure.

[Lady Jess]

darkrose wrote...

Valentia X wrote...
Vengeance can, and has been, justified. Or is Cousland evil for wanting to end the life of the man who destroyed her family? Is the City Elf wrong for wanting to avenge a raped cousin?

Isn't that the point though? Apply anger, resentment, and bitterness to the ideal of justice, shake with a dash of oppression, and you get a highly volitile concoction that's liable to go off at any moment and take out innocent bystanders. The Tabris origin is actually a perfect example. My Tabris always kills Vaughan, including going back and replaying so I can get the head shot. And if there's anyone in the game who deserves his fate, it's Vaughan. (which can make it weird to play male!Hawke, let me tell you)

But at the end of the origin story, what's changed? Shianni's still been raped. Nola and Nelaros are still dead. And the Tabris Warden gets to walk away. During the next months, she'll become the biggest BAMF in Ferelden. People who aren't terrified of her will often want to get in her pants. She's a dragonslayer, demon-hunter, and kingmaker. 

Meanwhile, as a direct result of her actions, the boot's coming down even harder than before on her people. There's a purge, and plague, and slavers, and it's hard to blame the elves who point their fingers at the one who lit the fuse and then ran off. 

I'm still very far from the end game (maybe if I stopped restarting so often...) and I honestly don't know what my mage Hawke is going to do. I can see him believing that Anders will have to pay, but whether that's living with what he's done or dying for it....I'll have to see. Ironically, being spoiled has made me more interested in getting to the end, so I can see how it all plays out.

I know my CEF didn't just RUN into the Urien estate to save her Cousin from Vaughn. She was taken by FORCE right along with Shianni, from her own wedding! So what actions? escaping from a rapist that kidnapped her? rescuing the other girls before they were killed or raped AGAIN and again?  That wasn't vengeance, it was survival.

[Nivilant]

VampOrchid wrote...

I'm so looking forward to seeing where that "I'll get you and your precious Anders" comes in.

And here's a thought. What if BW, comes out with either DC or in the 3rd game they have this deal you're making with Flemeth to seperate justice from Anders. Now that would be cool.

I cannot tell you how much I love this idea. Save him and I'll become part of your plan? Oh God as if this romance needs any more tragedy!

I too want to see Seb's revenge plot play out and not have it as a random line. I mean, he admits he won't make a stand there and then because he can't beat Hawke (smarter than most companions who turn on you really. He obviously took the Kylon school of not messing with the protagonist.) but then he wants to bring an army. Against the Champion. Who defeated the Qunari and the mages/templars. Right. Good luck there Sebby.

Also, he'll need to find them first. Then wait in line behind the Divine, the other templars, random merc groups...

That screenshot of him is really derpy looking, although I do admit those big blue eyes are beautiful... just not as full of woobie-ish charm as Anders'.