57019 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

What??
Anders summons shades? *facepalm*

[tmp7704]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Like when me and my mage-party rain fireballs in front of Cullen and he not only doesn't arrest us but still has the audacity to say "mages are not like you and me and cannot be treated like people" with Anders fuming in the background.

I bet Cullen is just card-carrying member of the Magic Fight Club.

[KnightofPhoenix]

.......this is just ****, I am sorry. Do the devs really think we are lacking in blood magic that they make the guy who supposedly hates it, use it?

Why did he use it at least?

[erilben]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

.......this is just ****, I am sorry. Do the devs really think we are lacking in blood magic that they make the guy who supposedly hates it, use it?

Why did he use it at least?

Corypheus can mind control Grey Wardens, and so he mind controls Anders. I don't see the big deal with this. 

[esper]

Anders doesn't have warden siblings' plot amour to 'Cory's control wardens through the taint.

Modifié par esper, 31 juillet 2011 - 05:31 .

[Sinaxi]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

What??
Anders summons shades? *facepalm*

And performs that neat staff-through-abdomen-fountain-blood party trick that bloodmages are so fond of. My eyebrows shot so far up they nearly met my hairline the first time I saw it because what the cookie is that all about.

Huh, I didn't know he did that. I didn't see it at least. It might be because Corypheus is like, the one who is sort of controlling him and Justice is just the one that manifests because of Cory trying to control him.

All in all I think it's just them trying to make Anders do cool evil magic things when he's possessed lol I don't really view it as being important to the story but yeah it doesn't make much sense. That's the best  I can come up with, that Cory is the one who prompted those spells/shades since he is a Tevinter Magister.

Yeah, but Carver also isn't a Mage. I think Cory is much more drawn to possessing Mages as is seen with Janeka. So actually it does make more sense to me now.

Modifié par Tidra, 31 juillet 2011 - 05:33 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Eh its no different then when he shows up with demons and blood mages and tries to kill you if you side with the Templars.

[tmp7704]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Why did he use it at least?

I reckon his plan was actually to summon:



but it just worked like usual.

(drawing from http://djkaeru.deviantart.com/ )

[KnightofPhoenix]

erilben wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

.......this is just ****, I am sorry. Do the devs really think we are lacking in blood magic that they make the guy who supposedly hates it, use it?

Why did he use it at least?

Corypheus can mind control Grey Wardens, and so he mind controls Anders. I don't see the big deal with this. 

Ah, well this isn't as bad then. I guess.

[leggywillow]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

.......this is just ****, I am sorry. Do the devs really think we are lacking in blood magic that they make the guy who supposedly hates it, use it?

Why did he use it at least?

Corypheus was imitating the Old God's Calling, making Anders hear things in his head and generally freak out.  He starts grabbing his head and says something like "The Joining... I have too much taint in my blood, I can't shut him out."  Then he says "I will not be controlled!" and Justice takes over.  Janders then summons 2 shades and you have to fight him.

He seems to get a whole bunch of spells for the fight that he doesn't have otherwise.  He had Rock Armor, for example, which I never give him in my games.  That's why I'm not sure if this is just another glaring example of gameplay-story segregation or if it's something more.  Was it actually Corypheus' influence forcing him to use blood magic?  Or is this an indication that Justice is more demon than spirit now?

[SurelyForth]

It could just be an artifact of Janders opening the Fade (the shades, that is) and they're just there because there's an opening, and not because they were summoned.

As for blood magic...well, I don't think that blood magic is evil in and of itself. It's the usual manner of acquisition and the stigma that seems to bother Anders the most (and the abuse of it...mind control and all that). In its purest form, it's really no worse than using some of the entropy spells. In that case, Anders using blood magic when he's under that level of duress is hypocritical but not necessarily character breaking. I don't think.

[KnightofPhoenix]

leggywillow wrote...
He seems to get a whole bunch of spells for the fight that he doesn't have otherwise.  He had Rock Armor, for example, which I never give him in my games.  That's why I'm not sure if this is just another glaring example of gameplay-story segregation or if it's something more.  Was it actually Corypheus' influence forcing him to use blood magic?  Or is this an indication that Justice is more demon than spirit now?

Well now I recall that Anders can summon shades if you side with Templars. But seeing how shades apear in the wave load and sometimes don't even need to be summoned, it might just be yet another glaring example of gameplay - story segregation.

Bah I don't know what to think anymore.

[Sinaxi]

leggywillow wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

.......this is just ****, I am sorry. Do the devs really think we are lacking in blood magic that they make the guy who supposedly hates it, use it?

Why did he use it at least?

Corypheus was imitating the Old God's Calling, making Anders hear things in his head and generally freak out.  He starts grabbing his head and says something like "The Joining... I have too much taint in my blood, I can't shut him out."  Then he says "I will not be controlled!" and Justice takes over.  Janders then summons 2 shades and you have to fight him.

He seems to get a whole bunch of spells for the fight that he doesn't have otherwise.  He had Rock Armor, for example, which I never give him in my games.  That's why I'm not sure if this is just another glaring example of gameplay-story segregation or if it's something more.  Was it actually Corypheus' influence forcing him to use blood magic?  Or is this an indication that Justice is more demon than spirit now?

It's hard to tell if Justice didn't just freak out on anyone nearby him because of Cory trying to snake himself into Anders mind, or if Justice just simply freaked out at the same time Cory was able to get into his head. The magic they had him using to me suggests it was Cory but who knows. Justice does technically turn into "vengeance" when he gets angry so yeah I'm not sure where to stand with the whole spirit vs demon thing..in my own opinion I still think Justice is much more spirit than he is demon. His goals are still generally selfless (freedom of mages) vs a demon just wanting to get into the world to gain power and control for themselves.

That and Anders says afterwards that he "fears what the emissary" can make him do which suggests it might have been Cory controlling him. Says he hopes he can "hold against him both" meaning both Justice and Cory, so it seems like it might have been a bit of both of them when he did the whole freak-out Justice change. So, I'm gonna go with the latter that it was more of Justice freaking out to try to combat Cory but Cory was still able to get into Anders head. Hard to tell though either way what with the spells and if that's supposed to mean it was Cory or if it was just them selecting random evil spells to have Anders cast lol.

[tmp7704]

SurelyForth wrote...

It could just be an artifact of Janders opening the Fade (the shades, that is) and they're just there because there's an opening, and not because they were summoned.

If i remember right the bigger spirits/demons get to boss the smaller ones around, so Justice possibly summoned them to do the fighting for him and didn't consider it as anything odd or out of the line -- it's not like "the good guys" have a rule in the book about not having the 'bad guys' do their bidding and fight for them, it's just something that's normally out of realms of possibility

[SurelyForth]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

I think it sort of is. Anders isn't simply himself, he is also Justice. Justice doesn't know how to use bloodmagic because it's something demons do and if it's one thing he is very adamant about other than mage freedom it is that he is NOT a demon and hates everything associated with them. He would never allow Anders to learn it, let alone use it, it even during stress.

My understanding is it's just something that can be learned from demons (in exchange for doing something that they want/giving them access to the world), not something that demons do. I think that blood magic originated with either the elves or the Old Gods*, not demons.

Besides, shades use entropy spells, rage demons use primal spells and Justice has no issues with Anders having spells in either school.  

*Dumat in particular...which might mean that Corypheus was influencing him when he did that. 

Modifié par SurelyForth, 31 juillet 2011 - 06:01 .

[ForgeDark]

I also assumed he was possessed by Corypheus when the shades appeared, and the blood magic started and that Justice came out as a last defence that failed. However, I was disappointed that there wasn't more discussion afterwards. I also found it weird that my Hawke said nothing to Anders about hearing voices in party banter when my other companions were concerned (it was making me start to feel bad for taking him along!). Then again those were the only two things I didn't like about the DLC - it was much better than I was expecting

[Addai]

ademska wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

I found it boring.  The cartoony graphics are offputting.  Fenris hardly talks, so it's basically an Anders DLC with a bit of Varric and the sibling.  Story-wise, I have zero emotional investment in this PC, so I'm not going to be impressed at what feels like an artificial attempt to make the Hawkes into something big and vital in the world.  I would have been interested in the Dumat stuff, but Corypheus is such a cartoon freak that I just can't take it seriously.  His boss battle was tedious.

Does that help?  lol

you're an unabashed hater of vanilla da2, which, whatever, valid opinion.

...but you'll forgive me for not being inclined to find yours of value in this discussion. so, to answer your question, it doesn't help.

I gave it a 7 on Metacritic and have posted on its good points as well, but yeah basically I don't like the game.  Feel free to dismiss, however, especially since I wasn't responding to you.

[ademska]

eyeofhorus87 wrote...

I also assumed he was possessed by Corypheus when the shades appeared, and the blood magic started and that Justice came out as a last defence that failed. However, I was disappointed that there wasn't more discussion afterwards. I also found it weird that my Hawke said nothing to Anders about hearing voices in party banter when my other companions were concerned (it was making me start to feel bad for taking him along!). Then again those were the only two things I didn't like about the DLC - it was much better than I was expecting

this is what i assumed and what i continue to believe. i'm sure there's some justice wrangling in there, but given anders' emissary dialogue i'm convinced he was pretty much possessed by corypheus.

and apparently there is hawke banter about anders, but like most of the hawke-specific banter it doesn't trigger right.

[leggywillow]

I can buy that it was mostly a Corypheus-induced episode, with Justice desperately trying to resist as well and probably just making it harder for Anders.

The blood magic stuff has always confused me, though.  I tend to think how SurelyForth does: that blood magic isn't really tied to demons, but in a world where its teaching has been all but stamped out the demons essentially serve as the "black market" for learning it.  Anders' dialogue implies otherwise, however, when he tells Fenris that "to use blood magic, you have to look a demon in the eye and accept its offer".  The best way I can reconcile the two is that the Chantry/Circle teach their students that to discourage them from seeking it out and Anders is just spouting out what he was taught.  However, someone who questions Chantry teachings as much as Anders does would probably question that, not repeat it blindly.

Another DLC question I have is why Anders immediately stopped having problems right after his little episode.  Did Corypheus stop whispering once the seals were broken?  Maybe I just haven't been paying attention, but I would think his influence in tainted minds would only get stronger.

Another interesting twist I was waiting for was in the Codex about Corypheus: "This same power stays the hand of any Warden who approaches to kill him."  I was like "OH SNAP, Carver and Anders are going to leave me high and dry in the final battle, this is going to be insane".  I was a bit disappointed when nothing happened, though I guess the last battle really would have been ridiculous if half your party couldn't participate.

[Sinaxi]

Yeah, and Hawke is the one that delivered the actual killing blow on Corypheus and they aren't a Grey Warden. However, is anyone else speculating that he's not really dead? The ending made it seem like he possessed either Janeka or Larius. They just acted really strange after he was dead and I got that impression right off the bat.

[ForgeDark]

I think during my final battle Anders said something about having to hold on a little longer (can't remember the exact phrasing), but maybe that wasn't in reference to the voices and I just assumed it was.

I also don't think blood magic only comes from a deal with a demon, since I don't believe that Jowan spoke to a demon in DAO. However I don't think Justice would ever use it, since I think it initially did come from one (and usually is learnt that way). I think really Anders is so against it because he is fed up of everyone assuming all apostates are blood mages. It is easier to go along with the Chantry line on where it comes from, to make the point that not all apostates want to be blood mages. By saying that a blood mage has to make a deal with a demon it makes it seem a more unreasonable thing for most mages to want to do. If it appeared blood magic can be learnt easily with little consequences it won't help remove the commonly held view that the Circle is needed to stop mages learning the evil.

which won't really help his cause that the Circle isn't needed considering the way blood magic is needed..

[Taihsigva]

leggywillow wrote...

Another interesting twist I was waiting for was in the Codex about Corypheus: "This same power stays the hand of any Warden who approaches to kill him."  I was like "OH SNAP, Carver and Anders are going to leave me high and dry in the final battle, this is going to be insane".  I was a bit disappointed when nothing happened, though I guess the last battle really would have been ridiculous if half your party couldn't participate.

I have a suspicion that Cory may have wanted us to try and kill him, so he could get out of his prison and then possess somebody. The part when you're about to open the final seal, Larius says something to the effect of "free him and then kill him," which when I heard it, I was like, huh what now? free it? that sounds like a bad idea...

So perhaps the big fight and him dying was his backup plan or whatnot if Janeka failed, and he was more subtlely influencing Larius as well. He wouldn't actually see them as a threat to his person, so that not-letting-Wardens-kill-him power wouldn't activate, with that being why Anders and Warden!sibling could participate in the fight. -shrug-