57019 réponses à ce sujet

[Arquen]

I always took the shades as just game mechanics and such. I tend to suspend belief when Anders turns on you end game and in legacy. He wouldn't use blood magic, and I just see it as a mistake from bioware honestly. Every enemy mage summons shades and demons its like they just re-use the "bad mage" script without consideration of the character.

I tried to not over-analyze it, but it really is completely contradictory to Anders as a whole. Hence I tend to just roll my eyes and go "ok, crazy random shades... Anders must be channeling magic through justice again or being overtaken by cory. My healer has offense spells... wtf...? Go go magic general mage script #1"

Edited for TOP and because this screenshot makes me LOL way more than it should.

Modifié par Arquen, 01 août 2011 - 03:34 .

[ForgeDark]

FieryDove wrote...

MG800 wrote...

It wasn't "turning on your Hawke". It was "turning on everything that's around" - it was a defense mechanism. Justice didn't understood what was going on, someone/something was trying to take their mind so he got scared, and lashed out at anyone who was nearby. Hawke just happened to be this lucky fellow. Besides, I don't understand why you guys expect Anders, to be something diffrent then uh, Anders - and Deep Roads are really a place to bring his cheery side out.  You know: memories, taint, death, being trapped, some crazy voices in his head...

I don't know. Dragging Anders into the deep roads seemed like a good idea rather than leave him in a templar infested city. That's tempting fate and Justice too much one would think.

I don't understand why we couldn't talk Justice down if it was Justice. If it was Cory well at that point it would explain shades/other spells Anders did not have being used.

Does anyone have a youtube video of Anders stabbing himself with staff people have said happened using BM? It didn't happen in my games, I went back and replayed it. He slams the ground with his staff and shades appear. Or maybe I was really tired and it was really late everytime I got to that part.

It wasn't in a cut scene, he just uses blood magic in the fight. When it happened I expected there to be a discussion about it afterwards, even assuming that Anders was possessed (which I do), but there wasn't one. 

[Evilnor]

Yeah, not letting Hawke discuss it with Anders was a lost opportunity, I think. Even a "you good now?" or "Don't let it happen again" would've been good.

The only problem I see with the "standard bad mage script" is that none of them seem to know rock armor whereas Anders used it when I'd never taught it to him. The programmers probably decided on a set of abilities for Berserk!Anders to have during that one fight.

Alternatively, there's also the idea that Justice has the same sort of knowledge that demons do but just doesn't use it. We have no clue how old he is, but judging by some of his actions (in Awakening, at least) we can infer that he's pretty powerful and probably quite old, even though time has no meaning in the Fade. True, he doesn't watch mortals, but it could be that blood magic is a variation on the magic spirits draw from their own essences (pointed out earlier). Cory could have spurred him to use it somehow.

Eh, gameplay/story segregation is a simpler explanation, and the simpler explanations are usually right.

[ForgeDark]

Evilnor wrote...

Yeah, not letting Hawke discuss it with Anders was a lost opportunity, I think. Even a "you good now?" or "Don't let it happen again" would've been good.

The only problem I see with the "standard bad mage script" is that none of them seem to know rock armor whereas Anders used it when I'd never taught it to him. The programmers probably decided on a set of abilities for Berserk!Anders to have during that one fight.

Alternatively, there's also the idea that Justice has the same sort of knowledge that demons do but just doesn't use it. We have no clue how old he is, but judging by some of his actions (in Awakening, at least) we can infer that he's pretty powerful and probably quite old, even though time has no meaning in the Fade. True, he doesn't watch mortals, but it could be that blood magic is a variation on the magic spirits draw from their own essences (pointed out earlier). Cory could have spurred him to use it somehow.

Eh, gameplay/story segregation is a simpler explanation, and the simpler explanations are usually right.

I do like the idea that Justice does know how to use blood magic but just doesn't use it since I go along with Merrill that fade spirits aren't split in a simple line of good and evil. I'm not sure how that fits with Anders saying you have to learn it from a demon though, unless he doesn't realise Justice knows how to use it. However I think Anders is in denial when talking about blood magic which may explain why he gets so angry about it. He accepted a deal from a fade spirit which has made him more powerful, and so essentially gave into temptation. A different kind of temptation, temptation with good intentions, but Merrill accepted a deal from a demon with good intentions as well. I don't see how learning that magic is much different to learning blood magic (particularly in cases where the user of blood magic only ever uses their own blood like I think Merrill does - not looked to closely at her talents though so I may be wrong). In fact, maybe it is that which makes Anders different from Wynne because he knows it was his own choice, whereas Wynne never asked for what happened to her which is why there is no internal conflict.

The lack of conversation afterwards is what made me think we are supposed to assume it was Cory possessing him, otherwise the 'Thank you, love' (paraphrasing) afterwards doesn't make too much sense to me as if it was Justice I would expect to see a lot more guilt for what just happened. 

[ForgeDark]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

The problem with the notion that Justice could know how to use blood magic is that Anders would know it as soon as Justice entered Anders' body. Everything that Justice knows, Anders knows - for them to keep secrets from one another is impossible.

To be honest, I don't really agree with Merrill's assessement of spirits and demons. I mean, sure, if you look at their most basic traits, they share the same characteristics - they are beings native to the Fade, they can see into the minds of mortals, they can shape the Fade to their will and inviting either to take up residency in your body is the Worst Idea Ever, but. There is a difference in their intentions - demons wants to live in the world of mortals and so use mortals for that purpose by encompassing their "vices" and preying on their weaknesses. Spirits, on the other hand, care more about the whatever human virtue they have chosen to embrace, and this is true for Justice as well, even as corrupted as he is.

The problem I have idea that blood magic is knowledge innate in whatever basic form spirits and demons are is that they don't have blood. It's a power entirely dependent on the flesh - as the codex entry on the matter says, it doesn't require drawing power from the Fade. If it originated from an Old God or the elves, it's plausible to think that demons would be interested in harvesting knowledge about it so that they can use its power as a bargaining chip in deals with other mortals. Spirits have no reason to be interested in it.

Well, maybe a spirit is taking on a human virtue but a trait like justice means different things to different people e.g. My idea of justice is not an eye for an eye, but for many people it is - for me, killing Bin Laden was NOT justice, but I can accept there may have been no other choice. Others would see it as justice, Obama certainly said it was. For some, the death penalty is justice but to me it is not. I don't see an eye for an eye as a virtue and if a spirit was to take that idea of Justice on board I would see it as 'evil' as desire (which isn't always evil either, desiring something good is not evil). Vengeance and justice can be one and the same thing, so I don't think Justice is corrupted I just think he perhaps has a different view on justice than Anders does and the way Anders reconciles their views is to call Justice Vengeance.

I also agree Anders would know, but that doesn't mean he doesn't know - both can know how to do blood magic without choosing to use it. Anyway, after Legacy is completed he DOES know how to do blood magic but I wouldn't call Anders a blood mage for having that knowledge since he never chose to use it. 

Modifié par eyeofhorus87, 01 août 2011 - 01:27 .

[Heidenreich]

Arquen wrote...

I always took the shades as just game mechanics and such. I tend to suspend belief when Anders turns on you end game and in legacy. He wouldn't use blood magic, and I just see it as a mistake from bioware honestly. Every enemy mage summons shades and demons its like they just re-use the "bad mage" script without consideration of the character.

I tried to not over-analyze it, but it really is completely contradictory to Anders as a whole. Hence I tend to just roll my eyes and go "ok, crazy random shades... Anders must be channeling magic through justice again or being overtaken by cory. My healer has offense spells... wtf...? Go go magic general mage script #1"

the catch, is it's game play mechanics. Anders, on a character level, was raised in the circle. Which means he knows all KINDS of spells. Thus why he makes mention of lightning spells and fire spells. Because he indeed knows them. He would, he was taught magic by magic users. Just because game play mechanics have him "knowing" only what you allow, doesn't mean he doesn't know how.


That being said, the scene is fairly self explanatory. Coryphus is trying to control Anders via his taint and link to magic. Justice freeked out and lashed out in defence at the only thing he could, which happened to be Hawke and co.





As for using blood magic, that probably is Coryphus' influence, not Justice OR Anders. A true magister -would- know blood magic, being as how they murdered all of Kirkwall's slaves to get at the Golden City 

Modifié par Heidenreich, 01 août 2011 - 01:30 .

[ForgeDark]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

eyeofhorus87 wrote...


Well, maybe a spirit is taking on a human virtue but a trait like justice means different things to different people e.g. My idea of justice is not an eye for an eye, but for many people it is - for me, killing Bin Laden was NOT justice, but I can accept there may have been no other choice. Others would see it as justice, Obama certainly said it was. For some, the death penalty is justice but to me it is not. I don't see an eye for an eye as a virtue and if a spirit was to take that idea of Justice on board I would see it as 'evil' as desire (which isn't always evil either, desiring something good is not evil). Vengeance and justice can be one and the same thing, so I don't think Justice is corrupted I just think he perhaps has a different view on justice than Anders does and the way Anders reconciles their views is to call Justice Vengeance.

Justice has always considered 'eye for an eye' to be justice - he disapproves of you choose to spare Velanna, for example. And I can't recall Anders ever calling Justice by the name Vengeance - he calls him a force of vengeance whenever he gets so angry he breaks out and turns templars into meat streamers.

The difference between justice and revenge is this; justice is done for the sake of fairness, to restore balance and is based on a sense of moral rightness. Where that particular line goes varies from person to person - as you said, some might consider death to be justice in some instances while you do not. Vengeance on the other hand is done to satisfy the part that has suffered wrongdoing.

That's all just semantics, a force for vengeance or calling him the name vengeance it pretty much means the same thing.

How does a Justice spirit decide what kind of moral code to follow when deciding the line?

An eye for an eye for me would not be justice, therefore if I was possessed by Justice and was forced into that way of thinking I guess I would consider myself to be an abomination. Anders does not. In your example above, if I was possessed by Justice and he forced me to kill Velanna despite me not wanting to - what would you think of him? Would that make him still a good spirit? Or would he now he be a demon? Personally I think he would always lie somewhere in between.

I also agree Anders would know, but that doesn't mean he doesn't know - both can know how to do blood magic without choosing to use it. Anyway, after Legacy is completed he DOES know how to do blood magic but I wouldn't call Anders a blood mage for having that knowledge since he never chose to use it. 

I don't think Anders knows how to use it, for reasons I stated. As for what happened in Legacy, I attribute that to either gameplay/story segregation or Corypheus taking control and using blood magic through him.

Well, just because Corypheus took control doesn't mean Anders can't remember it and there is no suggestion he forgets what happened. Therefore I think he now knows how to use blood magic even if Justice didn't know how to before. From legacy onwards he now chooses not to use that knowledge. You can know how to make a bomb and could be forced under duress to create one, but it doesn't make you the terrorist. That's my opinion anyway  

Modifié par eyeofhorus87, 01 août 2011 - 02:38 .

[Arquen]

If it was Cory who was manipulating him like a puppet then I don't think he would have retained that magic knowledge at all.

It is pretty obvious that the only interpretation of that scene is as Heidenreich says -- Janders is possessed (lol 3 way possession) by Cory and used like a puppet to attack Hawke and co. Obviously Justice was pissed "I will not be controlled!," but I don't think he really had much of a choice since he pretty much went berserk there and attacked anyways .. ala meat streamers (I like that!)

The spells and stuff can be hand-waved by "Oh yeah Anders learned it in the circle," but the blood magic and summoning shades is the.. well.. shady part. Anders would not use that kind of magic and I don't believe he studied it or learned it or is just not willing to use it. He avoids blood magic always. He wouldn't use it. I just don't see that as part of his character. Cory would though, and as a magister he would use it and channel it maybe unwillingly even. Cory's possessions and callings always seem unfocused and confused. I think it was that confusion that allowed Hawke to beat the sense back into Anders and get rid of the Coryphaeus presence and allow him to move along. He does remark he has to fight it and hang on longer. So it isn't like the voice is gone, but it is probably lessened since it got beat to a bloody pulp by Hawke and probably receded somewhat. As for the possession it is more the voice, calling, abstract tentacles of power seeping out of Cory, not so much his conscious mind. Therefore, the blood magic could still come from him as a "go-to" magic he just knows.

[MG800]

FieryDove wrote...

MG800 wrote...

It wasn't "turning on your Hawke". It was "turning on everything that's around" - it was a defense mechanism. Justice didn't understood what was going on, someone/something was trying to take their mind so he got scared, and lashed out at anyone who was nearby. Hawke just happened to be this lucky fellow. Besides, I don't understand why you guys expect Anders, to be something diffrent then uh, Anders - and Deep Roads are really a place to bring his cheery side out.  You know: memories, taint, death, being trapped, some crazy voices in his head...

I don't know. Dragging Anders into the deep roads seemed like a good idea rather than leave him in a templar infested city. That's tempting fate and Justice too much one would think.

I don't understand why we couldn't talk Justice down if it was Justice. If it was Cory well at that point it would explain shades/other spells Anders did not have being used.

Does anyone have a youtube video of Anders stabbing himself with staff people have said happened using BM? It didn't happen in my games, I went back and replayed it. He slams the ground with his staff and shades appear. Or maybe I was really tired and it was really late everytime I got to that part. 

I m not disscusing anything with a person that's trying to shoot me. I think it's a good habit to have. And my theory is: it was both Justice and Cory, fighting for control. By weakening Janderso-Cory in fight, Cory loosened his grip, Justice regained some control over himself, and the whole being get back to being Anders. About blood magic, someone pointed out, that some vengeance abilities are similiar to some blood magic abilities. Or you can blame it on Cory for basic "know how". Demon/spirit issue again - diffrence, resemblence and when one start being another. A lot to think about - for hours. I wonder when we start receveing answers, for a change.

Modifié par MG800, 01 août 2011 - 03:54 .

[jamesp81]

ReiSilver wrote...

Arquen wrote...

I have a mixed reception of Anders in the DLC. Honestly I will have to admit that I *facepalmed* at his refusal to believe the Tevinter Magister black city story until after we killed Coryphaeus and looted the amulet.

It was probably because I played him in Act 3, but he also just seemed more depressing and all around mopey. The banters I ended up getting were all about him complaining of being in the deep roads, complaining about the wardens, and going nuts. I did appreciate the DLC focusing on his Warden aspect as well. As he said in one banter it almost feels like he isn't a Warden sometimes because of all the Justice/Plight of mages. It's like the taint, the calling, the long walk, the darkspawn go all out the window in the game and this DLC really snaps it back to "you can't just leave the wardens."

Don't get me wrong it isn't like it made me like Anders any less, but I just felt he was so melodramatic at times. Like REALLY??? The chantry just made up the whole **** story about Magisters entering the Golden city JUST so they could propaganda against all mages? I just.. *facepalmed* -- where is that tinfoil hat picture again? Someone forgot to put it on this morning!

I agree about the melodrama but I'm one of the people that actually didn't think the Chantry explanation of the Blight added up back during playthroughs of DA:O, and I have a rather genre savvy friend who I got to play mage origin in DA:O and not 2 hours into the game she's asking me if the Chantry is full of BS.
So having it bought up in the DLC was one of my favourite bits since it was a little theory that got explored. Cory even shuts down the idea that they were there to get at The Maker personally that the Chantry version of story would suggest, since at no point does he mention The Maker, only Dumat and that the city was black when he got there rather then it turning black because of the tevinters.

Personally, I DON'T think the Chantry is full of BS....but I do think they lack some essential pieces to the puzzle.  Some of which Coryphaeus let slip in conversation.  All is not quite as it seems, either due to loss of historical documents, or simple guesswork that turned out to be inaccurate.

I'm still kind of onboard with the idea that the black city was a result of the tevinter magisters being the usual ****s that they are, but the Chantry is missing the mark on some of the pertinent details of the blight and the first archdemon, I think.

[jamesp81]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Arquen wrote...

It wasn't that the chantry story was correct per-say. I never bought anything the chantry says at face value. It was the fact that Anders dismissed the whole thing as part of the conspiracy by the chantry to further repress mages.

It was just a little much. I mean I completely understand the Chantry being full of BS. Look at how the Tevinter Chantry spins the tale (lmao), but to sit there and say that the whole thing was made up as a story to allow for the chantry to look better while making the mages look like bad guys. That is tinfoil hat worthy to me. As I said I just *facepalmed* I wonder if his reactions are somewhat different before his customary Act 3 melodrama, one-track mindedness?

You can hardly blame him for being skeptical of the Chantry's teachings with his background - and I even thought the story was a lot of BS (or at least partly BS) considering the dwarven codex entries on the matter, and I would say they have a lot more experience with the darkspawn than anyone else. Not to mention the way the Chantry spins the tale specifically - these Super Evil mages break into their Creator-God's clubhouse because they thought their magics were better than his magics, craps all over the place, making Him run away in a huff and dooming the world to a repeating cycle of apocalypses.

There's nothing facepalm-worthy about it, and Anders does a full turn once he figures out there's an ounce of truth to their story and even seems hesitant to agree with me when I say that the sins of the ancient magisters shouldn't doom now-living mages. According to what Cory says, it seems like Dumat is an even bigger dick than his followers and tricked the magisters into seeking out a city of corruption that they since released on the world. Doesn't make the magisters less responsible, but it puts them in an entirely different light.

Yeah, they're not only evil they're stupid as all hell.

[jamesp81]

About the taint. 'Cory' seemed to remember the Black city already being
black, so I don't think the Tevinter magisters unleashed the darkspawn
upon the world.

That is not known.  It was apparently blackened when he found it.  He was hardly the only tevinter magister wanting to go there.

I still think the Chantry is getting some stuff right, and I'm guessing they're getting a lot of things right on the Tevinter magisters.  I suspect the god the chantry worships is real as well.  I have doubts that the tevinter magisters blackening the golden city is the one thing that started the blights.  That explanation just seems a bit too....convenient, especially with the templars itching to go full gestapo on the mages.  Reinforced by some of what we learn in Legacy about Dumat.

Modifié par jamesp81, 01 août 2011 - 04:42 .

[Sinaxi]

eyeofhorus87 wrote...
That's all just semantics, a force for vengeance or calling him the name vengeance it pretty much means the same thing.

How does a Justice spirit decide what kind of moral code to follow when deciding the line?

An eye for an eye for me would not be justice, therefore if I was possessed by Justice and was forced into that way of thinking I guess I would consider myself to be an abomination. Anders does not. In your example above, if I was possessed by Justice and he forced me to kill Velanna despite me not wanting to - what would you think of him? Would that make him still a good spirit? Or would he now he be a demon? Personally I think he would always lie somewhere in between.

It's a fairly important controversy, because Anders makes it seem like Justice completely loses himself when Anders is overwhelmed by any emotion, whether it be a threat to himself or other Mages. Anders merged with him willingly, he wanted to change the world for Mages but wasn't expecting the way that Justice would react. He was fairly horrified at what Justice had done in Hepler's short story when they had finished merging. However, I think in time even though he still feared what he was and what could happen if he lost control he didn't necessarily disagree with Justice. He wanted a revolution, I don't think Justice merging with him changed his entire outlook on everything. It influenced him greatly but honestly, I have always kind of viewed Dragon Age's realm as having the whole "eye for an eye" moral code. Many characters in the game believe in that and even though you can choose to spare certain people you basically go around killing people all the time.

You believe that killing Quentin, the man who completely violated your mother's body is not Justice? What about Kelder who is torturing Elven children and blaming "demons" in his head? If you send him back to Kirkwall, his father just protects him and he continues doing exactly what he was doing before. Those deaths are now on your head.

[jamesp81]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

The problem with the notion that Justice could know how to use blood magic is that Anders would know it as soon as Justice entered Anders' body. Everything that Justice knows, Anders knows - for them to keep secrets from one another is impossible.

To be honest, I don't really agree with Merrill's assessement of spirits and demons. I mean, sure, if you look at their most basic traits, they share the same characteristics - they are beings native to the Fade, they can see into the minds of mortals, they can shape the Fade to their will and inviting either to take up residency in your body is the Worst Idea Ever, but. There is a difference in their intentions - demons wants to live in the world of mortals and so use mortals for that purpose by encompassing their "vices" and preying on their weaknesses. Spirits, on the other hand, care more about the whatever human virtue they have chosen to embrace, and this is true for Justice as well, even as corrupted as he is.

I used to think that demons were necessary to unlock the power latent inside blood, but I've since changed my mind. The problem I have idea that blood magic is knowledge innate in whatever basic form spirits and demons are is that they don't have blood. It's a power entirely dependent on the flesh - as the codex entry on the matter says, it doesn't require drawing power from the Fade. If it originated from an Old God or the elves, it's plausible to think that demons would be interested in harvesting knowledge about it so that they can use its power as a bargaining chip in deals with other mortals. Spirits have no reason to be interested in it.

I'm with you on spirits vs demons.  Demons = bad, spirits = good.  But inviting either inside your head just isn't smart.  It's obviously more dangerous with demons than spirits.  I think of fade spirits in about the same way I would angels from Christian tradition.  They might be the good guys, but they're also destructive forces of nature, capable of violence on a scale a human mind can scarcely comprehend.  Inviting that to bunk in your noggin is asking for trouble.

As for justice, I think he's merely a spiritual rendition of what has already happened to Anders.  Anders is a man who believes in justice, but the unchecked injustices of the templars finally broke him.  The spirit Justice is not so different, once it was in Anders's head and was able to directly experience the same injustices Anders had for years.

Personally, I don't have a particular problem with Anders/Justice uncorking a whole case of holy retribution on the templars. They've earned it.  There is a season for all things, including one for making war.  Even madness has its place at times in the service of what is good and right.

As for blood magic, I suspect demons find it interesting because it's an analogue of what they do.  Demons draw power from their own spirit, their own life force.  Blood magic operates on a similar principle.  It's not about blood, per se, but about using life force as a fuel source.  For a human to do so apparently attracts the attention of unsavory spiritual entities and pretty soon there are abominations all over the place eating everyone's brains.

[Sialater]

I'm going to derail this discussion of the DLC I can't play yet and show off a screenie or two of my Margaret Hawke Chignon was kind enough to take for me since I'm on the 360.


Anders' girl.

Modifié par Sialater, 01 août 2011 - 05:03 .

[Sinaxi]

OF ALL THE RIDICULOUS, SPINELESS, MIND-CONTROLLED, SENSELESS PIECE OF **** ARGUMENTS I'VE EVER HEARD!

that never gets not funny.

[jamesp81]

Sialater wrote...

I'm going to derail this discussion of the DLC I can't play yet and show off a screenie or two of my Margaret Hawke Chignon was kind enough to take for me since I'm on the 360.


Anders' girl.

Sigh......I do so love redheads.  They're special.  I tried to make a redhead femhawke but never could get her to come out quite right.  I am supremely untalented with character creators.

[ForgeDark]

Tidra wrote...

eyeofhorus87 wrote...
That's all just semantics, a force for vengeance or calling him the name vengeance it pretty much means the same thing.

How does a Justice spirit decide what kind of moral code to follow when deciding the line?

An eye for an eye for me would not be justice, therefore if I was possessed by Justice and was forced into that way of thinking I guess I would consider myself to be an abomination. Anders does not. In your example above, if I was possessed by Justice and he forced me to kill Velanna despite me not wanting to - what would you think of him? Would that make him still a good spirit? Or would he now he be a demon? Personally I think he would always lie somewhere in between.

It's a fairly important controversy, because Anders makes it seem like Justice completely loses himself when Anders is overwhelmed by any emotion, whether it be a threat to himself or other Mages. Anders merged with him willingly, he wanted to change the world for Mages but wasn't expecting the way that Justice would react. He was fairly horrified at what Justice had done in Hepler's short story when they had finished merging. However, I think in time even though he still feared what he was and what could happen if he lost control he didn't necessarily disagree with Justice. He wanted a revolution, I don't think Justice merging with him changed his entire outlook on everything. It influenced him greatly but honestly, I have always kind of viewed Dragon Age's realm as having the whole "eye for an eye" moral code. Many characters in the game believe in that and even though you can choose to spare certain people you basically go around killing people all the time.

You believe that killing Quentin, the man who completely violated your mother's body is not Justice? What about Kelder who is torturing Elven children and blaming "demons" in his head? If you send him back to Kirkwall, his father just protects him and he continues doing exactly what he was doing before. Those deaths are now on your head.

Well, I'm completely against the death penalty so if I had a choice I wouldn't kill Quentin. However, he attacks you and there is nothing wrong with killing someone in self defence so long as it is reasonable force. Killing Quentin if he hadn't attacked you would be revenge, not justice.

The problem with Kelder is that the justice system in Kirkwall is corrupt, so although killing him is the best option it is not the most JUST thing to do. Justice is not to act as judge, jury and executioner. Kirkwall is mostly without justice, and that is why killing him is the only option in that situation. To me justice isn't easy, justice isn't always the popular decision, justice isn't acting on how revolted you feel about a crime (but to someone else, justice could be about that, which is why I won't accept that a justice spirit is automatically 'good').

I accept Kirkwall isn't the place where justice can be given out properly, and it is a place where you often need to take the law into your own hands. I was to pick a character in DA who represents justice the most, and tries to change things for the good it wouldn't be Justice - it would be Aveline. Shame that Anders spends half his time being suspicious of her.

Modifié par eyeofhorus87, 01 août 2011 - 07:10 .

[Sialater]

jamesp81 wrote...

Sialater wrote...

I'm going to derail this discussion of the DLC I can't play yet and show off a screenie or two of my Margaret Hawke Chignon was kind enough to take for me since I'm on the 360.


Anders' girl.

Sigh......I do so love redheads.  They're special.  I tried to make a redhead femhawke but never could get her to come out quite right.  I am supremely untalented with character creators.

Thank you.  I do hope she turned out right.  Anders seemed to think so at least. 

[Evilnor]

eyeofhorus87 wrote...
I accept Kirkwall isn't the place where justice can be given out properly, and it is a place where you often need to take the law into your own hands. I was to pick a character in DA who represents justice the most, and tries to change things for the good it wouldn't be Justice - it would be Aveline. Shame that Anders spends half his time being suspicious of her.

Except she's not following justice so much as she's following the law while bending the rules a little bit.  Most of the time, she's advocating the system.  Case in point, those two elves the Qunari protect.  She doesn't advocate taking the law into your own hands in that case.  Maybe it's only ok when she or Hawke do it, but not when Joe Schmoe she doesn't know does it?  Maybe the office has changed her a little bit since the days she advocated killing a serial killer?  Or maybe her "justice" in that case would have been for the rapist guard killed and not the family that was hurt by him.  If that last one is the case, it doesn't really come across in the scene.

Sure, she's made steps to make the guard as a whole a more just, but she's still bending to political wills around her, particularly the templars, even if she doesn't want to.  She's turning in a number of mages who may or may not deserve it while letting others go, possibly as a front to keep her office and keep doing her job.

That said, I agree she's probably the best example of a seeker of justice in the game (at least overall and not for a specific cause), but she's certainly not perfect.  I think it would be a better thing to say she champions uncorrupt law, but on occasion she still questions.

Modifié par Evilnor, 01 août 2011 - 07:46 .

[Fluffenstein]

I'm not for the death penalty either, most of the time. There are indeed some times that may seem like death is the best way for a certain situation to end. Though, I personally think in the Dragon Age universe, as someone else as stated before me, that an eye for an eye seems to be the norm. Quentin deserved to die after what he did to all those women over the years, and the end creation was an abomination, if not in the normal sense. I wouldn't want my moms head living on a body that was made of multiple other women, not to mention the fact that if the man continued to live he'd more than likely keep her 'alive'. That man deserved to die. Now, on the other hand, the guy that was killing off all the elven children because they were 'too beautiful' needed to be locked up in a padded room where he could just sit and think about what exactly he did, though we all know his father would have never allowed that, so the only other way I could have seen that ending happily was to tell him he was a psycho and killl him. (Which I usually did anyway.)

Now, in Awakening Anders could learn blood magic, and even if he did you'd drag him over to DA2 and he'd start screaming how bad it is and what-not, though I blame that partially on Justice, I'm not going to disagree with him. I don't like the idea of blood magic if it makes people a target for demons, when you can tell in the game that the ones who do choose to use blood magic seem to be mentally weak, if not somewhat psychotic. Other who use it must keep it hidden pretty well and don't give in to the demons. I don't particularly think it's right still, but if Anders had learned it before merging with Justice it pretty much explains to me, why he would be using it in defense when he may or may not be getting controled three-ways. The fact that Cory was in his head trying to control him as well as Justice trying to keep him out could make someone a little psychotic and attack anyone on sight. Also, who knows if it was, I actually believe Corypheus was controlling Anders through blood magic, as well as the mimiced calling.

When it comes to spirits and demons I don't believe they are 'good' or 'bad' I believe they are all right in the middle while the demons lean way farther into the 'grr I am evil and want to steal your body!' than the spirits. Though, when I look at Justice I did not see him as 'evil' when he was in the body of Kristoff because it wasn't his idea to be sent back through the fade, or to enter the body of a dead warden. Even then my Warden-Commander saw him as a friend, if not somewhat a child, to take care of that also had incredible powers she'd like to help him control in the mortal realm. When he decided to enter a living host, even if it was Anders idea, that's when things start to go sour for me. Spirits should not wish to enter a living host, even if they don't know what would happen to them afterwardsl. Why not get the body of some highwayman they killed and use that till they can find a better way for him to exist in the mortal realm, or find a way to send him back to the fade where he'd more than likely be happier? LONG STORY SHORT, Justice, to me, lost his 'being a spirit' when he merged with Anders, he may not be a demon now, per se, but he is no longer a 'good spirit'.