57020 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarah1281]

There is a little of that. I know one conversation near the end has Anders saying that he knows you don't agree but he hoped you'd support him anyway and the diplomatic option says that you do support mages but he's going about it the wrong way. I think it's the conversation where, no matter what you do, Justice comes out and accuses you of being lazy.

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

signcherie wrote...

Kawamura wrote...

The problem I have with the friendmance is that I don't think it's healthy for Anders to see himself and Justice completely as one. I think that's -- a very sad thing. It traps him, in a way. He is Justice. Entirely. There's no him left, because whoever he was is now something else.

I wanted to go rivalry on him, but it seems like all the choices are "i hate mages D<" where I wanted "I don't like the fact that you're doing a possession thing, but I like mages" option.

I think it's sad, too. But...if there's no way to separate them out again, I think it's better to make peace with what he is now than to struggle for something he can't achieve?

The only times it seems like there's no Anders left is when Justice takes over, which happens much more often in rivalry than in friendship. Seems like Anders has more control when he's accepting of Justice.

YMMV, of course.

I don't think it has to do with him being more in control. His rage fuels the twisted version of Justice. Friendly Hawke soothes him. Rival Hawke brings Anders' anger more to the surface, thus allowing Justice to more readily take over. He's like the Hulk, fortunately less green, unfortunately more clothing.

[Kawamura]

Miri1984 wrote...

@Kawamura I get where you're going with that, but I personally think it would be better for them to be more integrated. I mean, he constantly says that he and Justice are one, but every time something comes up that Justice doesn't agree with (romancing Hawke) it's pretty obvious they have differences of opinion, and also pretty obvious that Anders can tell when it's Justice disapproving of something and not just his own self-doubt.

If the rival path could some how bring Justice over to being more like Anders and less all "vengeance and fury" I'd be happy with it too. But to be honest, although I like that Bioware TRIED with the whole friend/rival thing, it didn't quite match up to my hopes. I think in order to make it work they should have made it far more complex, and it would have ended up taking up far to much of the game. IE: I hate mages gives you +10 rivalry, I agree with you but not your methods gives you +5 rivalry.... there needed to be more dialogue options with more variations of rivalry if you know what I mean?

I thought that changed towards the end. I had a feeling that Hawke's support made him... less likely to believe that Justice was pushing for one thing over the other? I had the feeling that he lost that "I know I'm doing this and Justice doesn't like it" feeling that he had, say, in Act II and he's telling you Justice doesn't approve of him visiting you at night.

[signcherie]

Here, everyone, have an Anders sketch.

[Sarah1281]

One thing that did bug me about Justice's "Go. Anders has no need of you" line (yep, sure he's Anders like he claimed two seconds earlier...) is that it makes it sound like he's discarded you. He needed you to protect him from the templars and to gather the last ingredients and distract the Grand Cleric but after that Justice sees you as unnecessary and wants rid of that headache, Anders' love for you be damned.

[Kawamura]

signcherie wrote...

Kawamura wrote...

The problem I have with the friendmance is that I don't think it's healthy for Anders to see himself and Justice completely as one. I think that's -- a very sad thing. It traps him, in a way. He is Justice. Entirely. There's no him left, because whoever he was is now something else.

I wanted to go rivalry on him, but it seems like all the choices are "i hate mages D<" where I wanted "I don't like the fact that you're doing a possession thing, but I like mages" option.

I think it's sad, too. But...if there's no way to separate them out again, I think it's better to make peace with what he is now than to struggle for something he can't achieve?

The only times it seems like there's no Anders left is when Justice takes over, which happens much more often in rivalry than in friendship. Seems like Anders has more control when he's accepting of Justice.

YMMV, of course.

I dunno that I like what making peace with being Justice means, at least from what I've understood. It seemed to me that making peace with being Justice gave him a ... free ride? It allowed him to play the martyr, and I don't think martyrhood is healthy.

When Justice takes over, I at least feel like the line between Anders and Justice is stronger. There are its own problems (black outs, for example), but I feel like it's far less sneaky of a change. Like. Anders feels like he's got no choice, but he's aware of himself being lost.

It's hard to explain. Especially on two hours of sleep and not enough RP to figure it out.

[Miri1984]

Ok, I'm probably obsessed, but this made me think of Anders:

Modifié par Miri1984, 23 mars 2011 - 04:33 .

[Kim Shepard]

Sarah1281 wrote...

There is a little of that. I know one conversation near the end has Anders saying that he knows you don't agree but he hoped you'd support him anyway and the diplomatic option says that you do support mages but he's going about it the wrong way. I think it's the conversation where, no matter what you do, Justice comes out and accuses you of being lazy.

Isn't there an option that lets Hawke agree with what Anders did? If not, I'm going to be disappointed that so many of my Hawkes will be out of character at such an important part of the story. ):

[Kawamura]

Sarah1281 wrote...

One thing that did bug me about Justice's "Go. Anders has no need of you" line (yep, sure he's Anders like he claimed two seconds earlier...) is that it makes it sound like he's discarded you. He needed you to protect him from the templars and to gather the last ingredients and distract the Grand Cleric but after that Justice sees you as unnecessary and wants rid of that headache, Anders' love for you be damned.

Anders is the cause. Love is distracting, it is an energy sink (especially this late in the game) and it does nothing in the strive towards right.

Justice is not a kind thing. Personally, I've always been a bigger fan of empathy and mercy. Justice without that is, well, it's unfortunately justice.

[panamakira]

So I've been meaning to post my male Hawke. Made him last night and I'm having waaay too much fun pairing him up with Anders. He's mostly a jerk with everyone. Piles up rivalry points like no other except with Anders. He gets lots of friendship points for talking about kitties. Don't let him fool you though. He's the harderst dude in town.





"Introducing Ivan Hawke. Top with Anders, bottom with Justice. Oh yeeaahh~"


P.S. Quality sucks because I took a pic of my TV.

/console player

P.S.2- *stares at Anders' rosy colored cheeks*

Modifié par panamakira, 23 mars 2011 - 04:42 .

[panamakira]

[ Ignore double post! ]

Modifié par panamakira, 23 mars 2011 - 04:41 .

[Miri1984]

DA2 smirking Anders from Galagraphia:

[leggywillow]

Kawamura wrote...

The problem I have with the friendmance is that I don't think it's healthy for Anders to see himself and Justice completely as one. I think that's -- a very sad thing. It traps him, in a way. He is Justice. Entirely. There's no him left, because whoever he was is now something else.

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...
I don't think it has to do with him being more in control. His rage fuels the twisted version of Justice. Friendly Hawke soothes him. Rival Hawke brings Anders' anger more to the surface, thus allowing Justice to more readily take over. He's like the Hulk, fortunately less green, unfortunately more clothing.

Both of these are why I'm having a hard time deciding which path is "better" for Anders.  I can see it both ways.  Yes, on the friend path, Anders doesn't seem to get riled up as often and seems to be calmer and more peacefully merged with Justice.  But is that what's best?  I can also see it like... a tumor or something.  If you just leave it alone it doesn't seem to be hurting anything, while messing with it via chemotherapy and surgery just HURTS and makes you feel even sicker than you were.  But treating it is still usually the best thing to do.  It's obviously not advisable to leave the tumor alone for the sake of short-term peace, because it may kill you in the longr un.  (Not at all a perfect metaphor, but it's the best I can come up with.)

[signcherie]

Kawamura wrote...


I dunno that I like what making peace with being Justice means, at least from what I've understood. It seemed to me that making peace with being Justice gave him a ... free ride? It allowed him to play the martyr, and I don't think martyrhood is healthy.

When Justice takes over, I at least feel like the line between Anders and Justice is stronger. There are its own problems (black outs, for example), but I feel like it's far less sneaky of a change. Like. Anders feels like he's got no choice, but he's aware of himself being lost.

It's hard to explain. Especially on two hours of sleep and not enough RP to figure it out.

No, you're definitely making sense and I think you have a good point. I can't really argue against it. I think what it comes down to for me is that the friendmance just feels healthier to me, so I enjoy it more, so that's what I do. It doesn't happen to bother me for Justice and Anders to merge. It bothers me more for Anders to seem miserable and out-of-control.

Plus, I'm playing as Hawke, who doesn't know what Anders was like pre-Justice and agrees with most of what he says (in my case). So she just does her thing, and that leads to friendmance, which happened to feel happier and more stable to me as a player but who knows, very likely isn't.

[Kawamura]

leggywillow wrote...

Kawamura wrote...

The problem I have with the friendmance is that I don't think it's healthy for Anders to see himself and Justice completely as one. I think that's -- a very sad thing. It traps him, in a way. He is Justice. Entirely. There's no him left, because whoever he was is now something else.

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...
I don't think it has to do with him being more in control. His rage fuels the twisted version of Justice. Friendly Hawke soothes him. Rival Hawke brings Anders' anger more to the surface, thus allowing Justice to more readily take over. He's like the Hulk, fortunately less green, unfortunately more clothing.

Both of these are why I'm having a hard time deciding which path is "better" for Anders.  I can see it both ways.  Yes, on the friend path, Anders doesn't seem to get riled up as often and seems to be calmer and more peacefully merged with Justice.  But is that what's best?  I can also see it like... a tumor or something.  If you just leave it alone it doesn't seem to be hurting anything, while messing with it via chemotherapy and surgery just HURTS and makes you feel even sicker than you were.  But treating it is still usually the best thing to do.  It's obviously not advisable to leave the tumor alone for the sake of short-term peace, because it may kill you in the longr un.  (Not at all a perfect metaphor, but it's the best I can come up with.)

Frankly, I don't think there is a "better" answer. Which is good. It should be difficult. Anders should be a difficult character, or else, how can he believably preform a very dispicable act? 

If his problem was easy, I think it would weaken the character. So... I don't think there is a better option. .____.

[Miri1984]

@Leggywillow I get your metaphor. It's pretty darn good. But considering as far as I'm concerned the metastasising of this tumour is the blowing up of the Chantry, all that chemo and surgery is for nothing. He's just had a few years of suffering before the big bang. So...

[mnomaha]

Sorry, but there's a lot of pages to read here! Does anyone have links to the rivalmanced Anders? I only did the friendly version but apparently (just from reading a bit) there's a big difference.

Thanks!

[Kawamura]

signcherie wrote...

Kawamura wrote...


I dunno that I like what making peace with being Justice means, at least from what I've understood. It seemed to me that making peace with being Justice gave him a ... free ride? It allowed him to play the martyr, and I don't think martyrhood is healthy.

When Justice takes over, I at least feel like the line between Anders and Justice is stronger. There are its own problems (black outs, for example), but I feel like it's far less sneaky of a change. Like. Anders feels like he's got no choice, but he's aware of himself being lost.

It's hard to explain. Especially on two hours of sleep and not enough RP to figure it out.

No, you're definitely making sense and I think you have a good point. I can't really argue against it. I think what it comes down to for me is that the friendmance just feels healthier to me, so I enjoy it more, so that's what I do. It doesn't happen to bother me for Justice and Anders to merge. It bothers me more for Anders to seem miserable and out-of-control.

Plus, I'm playing as Hawke, who doesn't know what Anders was like pre-Justice and agrees with most of what he says (in my case). So she just does her thing, and that leads to friendmance, which happened to feel happier and more stable to me as a player but who knows, very likely isn't.

Ah. See, again, I'm against Justice. I don't like it. I don't like that certainty. I don't like it sneaking in and stealing someone.

Now. Is it healthier than a rivalry? That's perhaps a completely different question. As was said, it is very similar to a disease. Is treating it going to cause more pain/suffering/sickness than simply treating its symptoms?

I don't think it's possible to know.

[signcherie]

Miri1984 wrote...

@Leggywillow I get your metaphor. It's pretty darn good. But considering as far as I'm concerned the metastasising of this tumour is the blowing up of the Chantry, all that chemo and surgery is for nothing. He's just had a few years of suffering before the big bang. So...

I like your take on it.

[signcherie]

Kawamura wrote...

Ah. See, again, I'm against Justice. I don't like it. I don't like that certainty. I don't like it sneaking in and stealing someone.

Now. Is it healthier than a rivalry? That's perhaps a completely different question. As was said, it is very similar to a disease. Is treating it going to cause more pain/suffering/sickness than simply treating its symptoms?

I don't think it's possible to know.

But it's fun to discuss! And I enjoy learning your viewpoint.

[mellifera]

panamakira wrote...

So I've been meaning to post my male Hawke. Made him last night and I'm having waaay too much fun pairing him up with Anders. He's mostly a jerk with everyone. Piles up rivalry points like no other except with Anders. He gets lots of friendship points for talking about kitties. Don't let him fool you though. He's the harderst dude in town.


(snip)

"Introducing Ivan Hawke. Top with Anders, bottom with Justice. Oh yeeaahh~"


P.S. Quality sucks because I took a pic of my TV.

/console player

P.S.2- *stares at Anders' rosy colored cheeks*

Hardest, eh?

Game needs moar cat conversations. Every other talk should have been about cats if it were up to me, but I am also a cat supremacist. I imagine that would lead to endless Anders friendship points.... Fenris probably hates cats.

[Kawamura]

signcherie wrote...

Kawamura wrote...

Ah. See, again, I'm against Justice. I don't like it. I don't like that certainty. I don't like it sneaking in and stealing someone.

Now. Is it healthier than a rivalry? That's perhaps a completely different question. As was said, it is very similar to a disease. Is treating it going to cause more pain/suffering/sickness than simply treating its symptoms?

I don't think it's possible to know.

But it's fun to discuss! And I enjoy learning your viewpoint.

Yes, discussing is the fun part. I just like to remind myself that I can't know so I don't accidentally get silly and start feeling

...

...

...

certain of things. That would be awful.

[Kim Shepard]

There isn't supposed to be a right answer, just different preferences.

I normally think friendship paths are best. Just because, from my point of view, it makes more sense when two characters in a relationship have similar opinions, or else they'd be fighting most of the time. My rivalmance FemHawke has quite a bit in common with Anders, but in the end, their relationship won't work. She can't forgive Anders for blowing up the Chantry. Kaya (friendmance) was never angry with him for blowing up the Chantry. They ran off together to fight in the revolution.

Also, I've always liked Justice. I've never had a favorite character who didn't want revenge. >

[panamakira]

I don't think it matters in the end what path you choose for him. I don't think either path benefits him. Justice is like a tumor (like leggywillow said) that is stuck to Anders and we have no idea how to get rid of him since it's defintely changing him or changed him?

I personally don't want him to completely forget who he is and merge with Justice but I think at the end of the game, regardless of what path you chose, by Anders doing what he did, he lost a lot of himself because there really is no going back anymore.

It's also very clear Justice doesn't want Hawke in the picture. My question is who will win in the end? Anders was ready to die and maybe you killed him but if he lives will he reject Hawke because Justice has become more part of him? since it's clear he find Hawke a distraction for Anders. I have a really hard time seeing a good ending for Hawke and Anders with Justice in the picture. Justice has too much influence over Anders already I don't know.

:/