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[upsettingshorts]

nitefyre410 wrote...

There is no such thing as a fair trail for a mage in the DA world... Guilty or Not Guilty.

I never meant to say that I expected the trial would be fair.   In either case, he's still clearly guilty.  And then he'd be executed or imprisoned by a duly constituted authority and not by some dude with a knife to the back when only a few people were looking.

It'd probably be beyond an unfair trial:  It'd be a show trial, to demonstrate how Anders is a "crazy abomination" that proves everything the Chantry says about how dangerous mages are is correct.  It'd discredit him and his cause, and I can bet that they wouldn't have allowed him to speak in his own defense seeing as he's got the whole Justice thing going on.

...and one of my Hawkes loves the sound of every word of that.

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I dont think the idea of a fair trial was ever that big of one in the past.
Sure a few cultures had a good attempt at it like say Rome... but not really in a Medieval world.

Heh, Roman trials fair.  Not so much.  

Fair for the accused maybe if you were rich enough to afford an advocate, perhaps.  Fair for the victim maybe if they had rich enough friends to actually bring the accused to trial.  The Romans didn't really have a civil service - for anything - in the sense we'd normally conceive.

But generally speaking yes, the practice of a fair and impartial trial is fairly new in the real world.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 août 2011 - 10:58 .

[nitefyre410]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

There is no such thing as a fair trail for a mage in the DA world... Guilty or Not Guilty.

I never meant to say that I expected the trial would be fair.   In either case, he's still clearly guilty.  And then he'd be executed or imprisoned by a duly constituted authority and not by some dude with a knife to the back when only a few people were looking.

It'd probably be beyond an unfair trial:  It'd be a show trial, to demonstrate how Anders is a "crazy abomination" that proves everything the Chantry says about how dangerous mages are is correct.  It'd discredit him and his cause, and I can bet that they wouldn't have allowed him to speak in his own defense seeing as he's got the whole Justice thing going on.

...and one of my Hawkes loves the sound of every word of that.

[

  


Fair enough -   either it discredits him or gives him a large platform to make another point - at that point in the game  I just don't see anymore middle road.  Wait if you have Aveline in your party when everything goes to "Boom"  the  character specific dialogue option shows and she gives you "WTF Hawke" look if I remember correctly but its been a while sense i have  seen that scene.  

Either way the  Circle system is broken from top to  bottom.  From Templars who have such a hair trigger   that if a Mage gets a paper cut they scream "Demon kill it fire." To Mages that are so unversed in the ways of  Magic that they don't even  know the own pitfalls or how to defend themselves against it. 

If there was one thing that Morrigan was right about -  they do want mages  deaf, dumb and blind.

Hyperbole yes - but thats how I actually felt by the end of the game.  

Modifié par nitefyre410, 02 août 2011 - 11:23 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Rome at least had an attempt at some type of justice system.

But I would think that only a modern court would Anders even have a chance at a fair trial.

[Xewaka]

nitefyre410 wrote...
Fair enough -   either it discredits him or gives him a large platform to make another point - at that point in the game  I just don't see anymore middle road.  Wait if you have Aveline in your party when everything goes to "Boom"  the  character specific dialogue option shows and she gives you "WTF Hawke" look if I remember correctly but its been a while sense i have  seen that scene.  
Either way the  Circle system is broken from top to  bottom.  From Templars who have such a hair trigger   that if a Mage gets a paper cut they scream "Demon kill it fire." To Mages that are so unversed in the ways of  Magic that they don't even  know the own pitfalls or how to defend themselves against it. 
If there was one thing that Morrigan was right about -  they do want mages  deaf, dumb and blind.
Hyperbole yes - but thats how I actually felt by the end of the game. 

Curiously enough, nothing of this happened in Ferelden Circle. Must be because their rulers there weren't a couple of nutcases.

[Giggles_Manically]

I think the key flaw with the circle is that its based around fear.
Fearing that someone will do something simply because of how they are born and then basing a system on it is doomed to failure.

[nitefyre410]

Xewaka wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...
Fair enough -   either it discredits him or gives him a large platform to make another point - at that point in the game  I just don't see anymore middle road.  Wait if you have Aveline in your party when everything goes to "Boom"  the  character specific dialogue option shows and she gives you "WTF Hawke" look if I remember correctly but its been a while sense i have  seen that scene.  
Either way the  Circle system is broken from top to  bottom.  From Templars who have such a hair trigger   that if a Mage gets a paper cut they scream "Demon kill it fire." To Mages that are so unversed in the ways of  Magic that they don't even  know the own pitfalls or how to defend themselves against it. 
If there was one thing that Morrigan was right about -  they do want mages  deaf, dumb and blind.
Hyperbole yes - but thats how I actually felt by the end of the game. 

Curiously enough, nothing of this happened in Ferelden Circle. Must be because their rulers there weren't a couple of nutcases.

 

The Ferelden Circle  the expection so there may be hope of the some kinda of salavge of this mess.  As Moderate as the Templars in Feredlen  where you still had  Mages  trying to get out. 

[upsettingshorts]

The Ferelden Circle - Uldred's opportunism aside - is the exception?

I thought it was made explicitly clear on several occasions that the Kirkwall Circle was the exception.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 août 2011 - 11:45 .

[Heidenreich]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Xewaka wrote...

Curiously enough, nothing of this happened in Ferelden Circle. Must be because their rulers there weren't a couple of nutcases.

It probably helped, but considering that Anders' experience with and hatred of the Circle of Magi stems from the Fereldan Circle and that Uldred managed to create a rebellion of mages wanting to force a change, the situation there was far from ideal.

According to everything we've been introduced to over the course of the two games, Ferelden's circle was fairly "run of the mill", even a bit lax. Uldred's uprising was pratically allowed, though would probably never have gone on beyond talks at the table with the other Senior Enchanters had Loghain/Howe not provided the oportunity.

But, Even Erving hated the chantry enough to let two of his charges and a chantry sister break into the repository just to have something against the chantry It mattered very little that his "star puple" and "that kid who's going to be tranquil by the end of the month" were also being thrown under the bus, so to speek. Even if your mage ratted Jowan out. It still got you in trouble, and Erving was all "SEEEEEEEE I TOLD YOU. YOU CHANTRY FOLK ARE JUST AS MUCH TO BLAIM!"


So at the end of the day, even the "run of the mill", and the "sort of lax" circles were bad enough to fester hate within its mages.

[nitefyre410]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

The Ferelden Circle - Uldred's opportunism aside - is the exception?

I thought it was made explicitly clear on several occasions that the Kirkwall Circle was the exception.

 

It was  - thats a  fact that I can't despute... I just don't  believe it - I am believe that there is  more places like Kirkwall that are just being covered.  But yes by the facts of the game Feredlen is  what is considered run of the mill and Kirkwall was the crazy house.   

[upsettingshorts]

nitefyre410 wrote...

It was  - thats a  fact that I can't despute... I just don't  believe it - I am believe that there is  more places like Kirkwall that are just being covered.  But yes by the facts of the game Feredlen is  what is considered run of the mill and Kirkwall was the crazy house.   

What's so hard about it to believe though?

Kirkwall and its Circle was sitting in, as Dr. Ray Stantz would put it, "The corner penthouse of Spook Central." 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 août 2011 - 12:50 .

[nitefyre410]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

It was  - thats a  fact that I can't despute... I just don't  believe it - I am believe that there is  more places like Kirkwall that are just being covered.  But yes by the facts of the game Feredlen is  what is considered run of the mill and Kirkwall was the crazy house.   

What's so hard about it to believe though?

Kirkwall and its Circle was sitting in, as Dr. Ray Stantz would put it, "The corner penthouse of Spook Central." 

distrust of  ogainizatons with that much power and their ability to make  the bodies disappear.  They have Absolute power and that corrupts asolutely.   I think it would be better to say... I just don't trust it and I am waiting for the other shoe to drop and if does not drop, still not going to trust it.    

+10  internets for the   Ghostbusters reference.

[SurelyForth]

Anders prompt has been updated for the week!

Manifestos Welcome

[beckaliz]

SurelyForth wrote...

Anders prompt has been updated for the week!

Manifestos Welcome

OH SNAP!!

[Sialater]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

It was  - thats a  fact that I can't despute... I just don't  believe it - I am believe that there is  more places like Kirkwall that are just being covered.  But yes by the facts of the game Feredlen is  what is considered run of the mill and Kirkwall was the crazy house.   

What's so hard about it to believe though?

Kirkwall and its Circle was sitting in, as Dr. Ray Stantz would put it, "The corner penthouse of Spook Central." 

Just don't get the Gatekeeper and the Keymaster together.

[ashyraine]

I would like to take a moment to interrupt your normal debates with some crack art. omg the ruffles. The ponytail.. Gimme an M A G E S gooooooo MAGES



By the glorious Yamisnuffles

Modifié par ashyraine, 02 août 2011 - 03:58 .

[nranola]

Caught a decent shot of Anders earlier and thought I'd share:



Ignore Varric and Fenris chasing after Merrill in the background. This is the first I've caught him casting Haste without looking remotely constipated. xD

[Sialater]

LOL, it's a great shot!

[berelinde]

nranola wrote...

Caught a decent shot of Anders earlier and thought I'd share:



Ignore Varric and Fenris chasing after Merrill in the background. This is the first I've caught him casting Haste without looking remotely constipated. xD

Whoa, that's one EPIC screenshot! Do you have that as a higher-res image somewhere? I would so love to use that as a wallpaper.

And Yami, so.incredibly.awesome.

And good timing with the images. The serious discussions are great, and they do keep this thread interesting, but sometimes, I just want to look at amazing Anders being amazing.

[nranola]

^

Here you go. Enjoy! Though, as funny as it is, I wish the others weren't in the background. It would've been a perfect shot.

And because I think it's hilarious:


JELLY, HAWKE?

This happened right after Flemeth's speech, no prompting from me whatsover. And then when I focused on Anders to get a better shot, Varric strolled over ON HIS OWN. xD Not even kidding.


"Oh, don't mind the inconspicuous dwarf. You two carry on groping each other...:whistle:"


....

Ahh, great stuff happens in the wee hours of the morning. <3

Modifié par nranola, 02 août 2011 - 05:32 .

[Sinaxi]

berelinde wrote...
Whoa, that's one EPIC screenshot! Do you have that as a higher-res image somewhere? I would so love to use that as a wallpaper.

And Yami, so.incredibly.awesome.

And good timing with the images. The serious discussions are great, and they do keep this thread interesting, but sometimes, I just want to look at amazing Anders being amazing.

Yeah, serious discussions are great but I think when I want to end one now and move on I'm just going to go with "Of all the ridiculous, spineless, mind-controlled, senseless piece of **** arguments I've ever heard!"

It like, completely obliterates whatever the opposing side could possibly be saying. You just can't top that.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The concept of "monopoly on legitimate use of force" as explained by Max Weber is a modern concept for "modern states". States prior the modern era did not hold that monopoly. In feudal systems, nobles could and did use violence when they saw fit. Feudal systems held, or aspired to hold, that monopoly when it came to larger issues / crimes. But for the most part, communities and fiefs within the feudal state were more or less auto-regulated. Monopoly on legitimate use of force is in large part linked to technology (gunpowder being one of the key inventions) and state capacity / institutions. The modern state is unparallelled in its capacities.

The Dalish certainly do not qualify to be a state. I am not even sure we can consider them a tribal confederation.

And of course, winners decide what is legal and what is not, and this is the case even today, regardless of how subtle they are in doing so.

Sure, but this is, again, why I always balk when people try to use modern political terms and ideals to discuss events in Dragon Age without acknowledging the fundamental differences between our modern world and the situation in Thedas. That's what I was trying to point out in my little rant, possibly unsuccessfully. The questions were largely rhetorical, to illustrate my train of thought, though I appreciate your actual answers to them.

I tried to look up the modern definitions of statehood, but I remembered Taiwan halfway through and made the mistake of trying to find a way to summarize their legal status in a paragraph; my brain overheated and I had to go for a bit of a lie-down. Then I went to look up more details on the status of reservations and decided that it was all too much work. My point was that once you get away from the obvious and into the edge cases, it becomes clear how arbitrary the idea of what constitutes a state is. Things get even more complex if we use nation instead of state, and don't get me started on "people." I understand that the terms are useful, but I feel like people associate them with a sort of invisible moral weight.

This also ties in to the mainstream moral acceptance of order or law as inherently superior to chaos. Someone who uses the system to murder thousands is seen as a better person than someone who kills a handful as an... independent contractor, shall we say. Someone who follows bad orders is often forgiven, sometimes treated more kindly than someone who disobeys bad orders. I'm not arguing for the inherent superiority of chaos, but rather the moral neutrality of both, and the benefits of a nice mix.

When you see the state embodied by a single person placed there not by any inherent superiority of skill or wisdom, but rather because they have risen to the top of a system that rewards viciousness, it becomes easier to mistrust it. The state can be some vague theoretical entity, or it can essentially just be Meredith... or Cersei Lanister. I'm not saying all states are like this; states where the citizenry are allowed to say whatever they want and go wherever they like tend to work out better. But in any oligarchy, the state must needs be seen as just as morally suspect as any individual.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 02 août 2011 - 05:32 .

[Arquen]

Lol I love action shots. Those are great!

To touch on the trial thing. I was under the impression bad mages don't get a trial they get an evaluation by the templars and the first enchanted. Abominations get dead. No.trial, just death because they are a threat.

A trial for Anders is non-existant. In fact I thought it was rather generous of meredith to let hawke "deal with the situation" rather than just put him down herself. She even let's him fight with her which is shocking, but then again she plans on killing the champion anyways so figures it doesn't matter I guess.

Still, no arrests or trials for mages, just tranquility and annullment. I don't think bringing justice system talk into it is very relevant.

[Addai]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I dont think the idea of a fair trial was ever that big of one in the past.
Sure a few cultures had a good attempt at it like say Rome... but not really in a Medieval world.
 

Not true.  Medieval jurisprudence was sometimes very elaborate, whether based on custom and tradition or on formal codes.  Some of those medieval codes were based on Roman law- which could produce the harshest and most illogical outcomes, like restriction of female inheritance.  In Germanic law, you were ruled by the thing, which is our basis for a jury of peers.

I expect in any Andrastian court, Anders would be executed as an abomination.