57019 réponses à ce sujet

[ForgeDark]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Being a 'state' gives you significant negotitation power, so the best tactic for a persecuted minority seems to be to destabalize the world enough that you can plausibly emerge as a new state. Today's bloody revolutionary can be tomorrow's head of state, and all his past crimes perfectly legal "acts of war." The elevation of the "state" means that anyone who wants to get anything accomplished is better off working to bloodily establish his own state rather than working within the system for gradual change, which is what results in all of our games of thrones we got goin' on here. It's this obsession with the state's authority that makes things like the Tevinter empire sound like a good idea. If a state where templars are masters and mages are slaves is legitimate (I'm not saying this is strictly the case in Thedas), a state where the opposite is true is no less legitimate.  

I've sort of lost the idea I was going for when I started pursuing this line of reasoning. It's less directed at people in this thread, and more at a general argument I always see against Anders... about the unwillingness of most people to admit that violence perpetrated by a state is not necessarily any less morally suspect than violence perpetrated by an individual, or a stateless group. Also, that any group can become a state instantly... all they need to do is convince a few other heads of state, and they're on. 

completely agree with the above, and actually I'll use that arguement with people you've put it much better than I ever could! I'd like to think we now live in a society where past crimes aren't always be seen as 'acts of war' just because they are now a state. Not that the UN would do much  about it, but in very rare circumstances they might say it was bad 

Upsettingshorts wrote...

eyeofhorus87 wrote...

Well I think that's completely different - Meredith would never tell you that, and there is no way to know she'd do that - even if you found out she has the idol there is no reason why you'd assume she'd attack you anyway. Yo u could guess sure, but not know.

Conceivably, someone else could tell you. 

That said, I kinda smelled a fish when the letters in Quentin's place were signed "-O"

I don't think at that point in the game I'd even met Orsino yet. You don't meet him until the Qunari attack do you? 


Edited for top:




By Galagraphia (love her Cullen/Rhia comic)

Modifié par eyeofhorus87, 02 août 2011 - 10:58 .

[upsettingshorts]

eyeofhorus87 wrote...

I don't think at that point in the game I'd even met Orsino yet. You don't meet him until the Qunari attack do you?

Oh I meant someone could tell you about Meredith's plans for you.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Well the closest argument I have on that subject - regarding Anders' authority - doesn't so much involve sovereignty as the fact that the mages do have a recognized and duly constituted system of authority and leadership. Locally, that is Orsino. More broadly, that is whatever the meeting of the elder mages at Cumberland was - what Wynne mentions in DA:A.

Anders acting alone, or indeed in a small group, is ethically problematic - not to the extent that he is as a result irredeemably in the wrong solely because of it, however it is a factor to be considered - when debating whether or not his actions were ultimately just. Because there existed a structure by which the mages could have revolted based on the consensus of legitimate leadership (legitimate in that its authority is recognized by other mages) and not just one angry mage and his spirit guide.

The thing is, "mages" don't have a recognized system of authority and leadership. The Circle does. These are two different things... there is no way for a keeper or an apostate to participate in the decision-making process, and the highest level of authority in the existing structure is a position controlled by their oppressors (Senior Enchanters are appointed by their local KCs). Saying that an apostate underground shouldn't exist because the Circle has a legitimate form of government is like saying the French Resistance shouldn't exist because the Vichy French had a legitimate form of government. (No I am not equating the mage underground to the power and broad support that the French Resistance had. I'm just saying that one form of 'acceptable' government existing does not automatically delegitimize all other attempts to change things.)

Of course, none of that may matter. We need to see more of what actual starts the mage war in order for this to make more sense, but I get the idea that, in the mage ending at least, the circles see what happened in Kirkwall and use their legitimate political power to make a decision based on that object lesson. I don't think Anders starts a war in the "all animals attack all humans" sense, but rather created a flashpoint event that knocked mages everywhere out of their false sense of security, and lead them to decide it was time to rise up. Varric doesn't say "and after the Chantry explosion, the Templars started attacking mages and they defended themselves" rather he seems to imply that the circles took inspiration from that event and used their formal system to decide to rebel.

[berelinde]

nranola wrote...

^

Here you go. Enjoy! Though, as funny as it is, I wish the others weren't in the background. It would've been a perfect shot.

And because I think it's hilarious:

<3

Thank you! Between your gorgeous screenshot(s) and Yami's delightful art, I've got a the best desktop slideshow EVER!

Sorry it took so long to thank you properly. I was at work and had trouble staying logged in.

[Furtled]

Delurking to say I've no idea if this has already been mentioned but the discussion about statehood/abuse by the state put me in mind of the the BBC Prison Study and their findings on guards and prisoners.

And on a less serious note:


Farkye on DA

*Resumes lurking*

[highcastle]

Furtled wrote...

Delurking to say I've no idea if this has already been mentioned but the discussion about statehood/abuse by the state put me in mind of the the BBC Prison Study and their findings on guards and prisoners.

And on a less serious note:

<snip pretty picture>

*Resumes lurking*

There have been quite a few prisoner/guard studies done in the past several years. Criminology is a fascinating field (and I'm not just saying that because it's one of my majors...though it helps). Considering the Circles are stated to be run in many respects like prisons--including their willingness to put certain mages into solitary confinement--there are quite a few parallels you can draw between the two institutions.

For instance, in most modern prisons, there's a high prevalence of gangs. Why? Protection. Safety in numbers. And what do we see in the Circles? Fraternities. It's easier to be a member of a group--even one that might attract the attention of the guards/templars--than it is to be a single man ranting about injustices. It's also less dangerous to be a member of the gang. For one thing, guards (and likely templars) know they'll never entirely eliminate crime from their wards. They rely in large part on the gangs to police themselves, to keep order in the ranks even when what the gangs represent may conflict with their moral code. And this works in many situations...until the gangs start wars with one another. I'm not sure how much the fraternities really fight amongst each other, though. At least not physically (or magically) the way real life gangs do.

Bah, I could (and have) talk for hours about prisonization and the possible effects such an environment likely had on Anders, but it's after midnight where I am.

[Arquen]

I mostly agree with the whole circle is a prison thing. What makes it so distasteful is that the mages haven't done anything wrong as far as crimes. However, if they do commit a crime it is catastrophic.

Also, I really was puzzled about Bethany's reaction to being in the circle. She doesn't seem very unhappy. She doesn't want to run. She is... content? -- I'm sure Anders' brain explodes when they discuss this, but it seems the DLC points more to the circle being not such a place of oppression at least according to Bethany.

Just seems odd that Anders I guess is so far gone he doesn't even believe anything Bethany says about the circle being a place where she is actually comfortable. He must assume she has been brainwashed and doesn't truly want to be there. I assume it will happen that after the bombing and the rebellion starts there will be plenty of mages who want to return to a circle like fundamental because they were comfortable there too.

Modifié par Arquen, 03 août 2011 - 05:31 .

[berelinde]

This is just my take on it, but it seems to me that Bethany regards her incarceration in the Circle as a kind of penance. Plus, for the first time in her life, she doesn't have to hide. She hated that. She is around other people like her, she can study and teach others, and there is a certain peace in knowing that the worst has already happened. As Hawke's sister, I do not know if she is treated as severely as those whose sibling is not one of the most important people in Kirkwall.

But if the player is doing the DLC before the endgame, she will still give her "now I know what we're fighting for" speech in the Gallows if Hawke sides with the mages.

[ademska]

@Arquen
i think i've said something on this in the past few days, but bsn's search function eludes me. bethany isn't happy, per se; she's content. her entire life, she's been forced into hiding and out of socialization, constantly in fear of capture and the consequences of that possible capture. in the kirkwall circle, that weight that's been so heavy on her shoulders is lifted, and she's finally free to live as herself, even if she's not truly free. her entire life has been spent a fugitive, and she's finally got a place where she finds a sense of purpose; her arc is actually very similar to carver's, except this is general feeling to wardening vs templaring.

the legacy dialogue reflects contentment and mild relief, but not happiness.

at endgame, she's absolutely on the side of the mages, more vehemently than carver sides with templars.

[nitefyre410]

Arquen wrote...

I mostly agree with the whole circle is a prison thing. What makes it so distasteful is that the mages haven't done anything wrong as far as crimes. However, if they do commit a crime it is catastrophic.

Also, I really was puzzled about Bethany's reaction to being in the circle. She doesn't seem very unhappy. She doesn't want to run. She is... content? -- I'm sure Anders' brain explodes when they discuss this, but it seems the DLC points more to the circle being not such a place of oppression at least according to Bethany.

Just seems odd that Anders I guess is so far gone he doesn't even believe anything Bethany says about the circle being a place where she is actually comfortable. He must assume she has been brainwashed and doesn't truly want to be there. I assume it will happen that after the bombing and the rebellion starts there will be plenty of mages who want to return to a circle like fundamental because they were comfortable there too.

  


I would say that she is more just trying to keep her head down and stay unoticed -  at least thats how  I read between the lines on that.  

Most go back  maybe because they want to or   maybe because they don't know how to live outside of what the Circle gives them.  The one mission with  Trask -  I  had Varric tell a wonderful lie  and point the  Templars in oppisote direction of those fleeing mages  who had no phylactories(Sp) because they were destroyed when the Starkhaven circle burned down. Come act two - they still end up getting caught.     So thrown into something that is completely uncomfortable and foriegn to us the first thing  we do is going back to our comfort zone - doesn't matter if comfort zone was  not a good place for  us to begin with. 

Thats  how I look at  the whole thing.

[Arquen]

That's exactly what I meant -- That mages especially circle mages will probably want to remain in their comfort zone.

Anders forces a rebellion, but I don't doubt for a second that mages will also oppose the rebellion and want the circles to return. The Templars even rebel and the Seekers are trying to keep it all together at this point. I see it being a hodgepodge of maintain the status quo on one side and lets change the world on the other side. I think it will split on an individual basis whereas mages and templars will probably go to both sides as they believe.

Of course going back to the whole propoganda of the Chantry thing I would assume they are conjuring stories and BS about how the rebellion actually started. Some insane abomination took over the circle and convinced other mages etc. to bomb the chantry and kill everyone inside -- a true mark of terror and evil. One that justified the ROA! -- ALL HAIL THE MAKER! or some such crap.

Yet going back to Bethany what I find the most disturbing is that she doesn't seem happy, but she doesn't try to RUN either. If the circle was so bad and so horrible a place where beatings and tranquility and rapes and etc. etc. were taking place daily you would think she would want to escape any chance she could. It almost seems like she is content, and maybe not happy to be a prisoner, but clearly not oppressed. Whether that is because she is the champion's sister, chooses to ignore these things happening, or simply does not know about the abuses (doubtful) I doubt she would want to stay in such a place. That's the puzzling thing to me.

The way Anders makes it seem is that there is tranquil and death and oppression around every corner. That nobody could possibly be content there, and that the whole system needs to DIAF. As I said his brain just explodes when she says she doesn't want to escape, and is willing to go back because she is tired of being an apostate and she has found purpose. It's like but what about the evils? the abuses? the tranquil solution? She doesn't seem to think those are very problematic otherwise she would have spoken up no doubt.

[ReiSilver]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

berelinde wrote...

This is just my take on it, but it seems to me that Bethany regards her incarceration in the Circle as a kind of penance. Plus, for the first time in her life, she doesn't have to hide. She hated that. She is around other people like her, she can study and teach others, and there is a certain peace in knowing that the worst has already happened. As Hawke's sister, I do not know if she is treated as severely as those whose sibling is not one of the most important people in Kirkwall.

But if the player is doing the DLC before the endgame, she will still give her "now I know what we're fighting for" speech in the Gallows if Hawke sides with the mages.

Pretty much this. As a mage Bethany has only two choices; one, to live freely, but eternally hunted, always having to look over her shoulder to avoid being exposed, always being abnormal, an outcast in society and forcing her family to live in the same danger she does. Two, having all her freedom stripped away from her, but living in accordance with Andraste's will, being allowed to live without fear and guilt and practice her magic openly and for once in her life being normal, which is what she wants above all else.


Between those two options, Bethany gladly picks the latter.  It probably helps that the templars seem to go much easier on her than the other mages, allowing her family constant visits and letting her write frequently. Perhaps she was watched over by Thrask or Cullen. It doesn't mean that she's happy, just that it's the lesser of two evils.

Arquen wrote...



Yet going back to Bethany what I find the most disturbing is that she doesn't seem happy, but she doesn't
try to RUN either. If the circle was so bad and so horrible a place where beatings and tranquility and rapes and etc. etc. were taking place daily you would think she would want to escape any chance she could. It almost seems like she is content, and maybe not happy to be a prisoner, but clearly not oppressed. Whether that is because she is the champion's sister, chooses to ignore these things happening, or simply does not know about the abuses (doubtful) I doubt she would want to stay in such a place. That's the puzzling thing to me.

The way Anders makes it seem is that there is tranquil and death and oppression around every corner. That nobody could possibly be content there, and that thewhole system needs to DIAF. As I said his brain just explodes when she says she doesn't want to escape, and is willing to go back because she is tired of being an apostate and she has found purpose. It's like but what about the evils? the abuses? the tranquil solution? She doesn't
seem to think those are very problematic otherwise she would have spoken up no doubt.

Even if she's not being abused, it doesn't make her not oppressed. That's like saying Orana wasn't oppressed because she was content being a slave. I think the degree of abuses going on is very much dependent on the individual templars. In the Gallows, there is evidence of templars beating and raping mages, lashing them for stepping out of line and breaking Chantry laws by making mages Tranquil for small offenses. I think the situation in the Gallows ranges from "prison" to "nightmare-inducing torture chamber" from person to person and that Bethany was one of the luckier ones.
It also reflects with some of the things that the mages say, from the one stating that the Circle is like anywhere in Thedas, to the one stating that it's a prison, to the one stating she'll be lashed for merely talking to you, to Alain. Poor sod.

I feel the need to point out that just because someone doesn't run doesn't mean they're not being oppressed or abused. Just look at the number of people in abusive relationships that still get the "If it was so bad why didn't you just leave?". Which makes me hesitant to say that because Bethany doesn't want to make a run for it first chance she gets means she's not aware of horrible things happening in the circle. Like Queen of Stuff said Bethany hates being on the run and making other people work to keep her safe. And if she were captured again she could be put in solitary or tranquilled or just loose the support of the nicer Templars like Cullen and Thrask. At the time she seems to be one of the luckier ones, there are other things I only sort of remember from her letter but it's been so long since I played a non mage Hawke in act 2.
But anyway people are willing to put up with quite a lot of horrible things if they believe that running could be worse.

Modifié par ReiSilver, 03 août 2011 - 10:02 .

[AndreaDraco]

I saw that this picture was posted like two thousand pages before and I thought that it was too nice not to be posted again.


by VelvetRue

I this it's very well done, with an awesome eye for details and coloring.

[YamiSnuffles]

Bethany says a number of times before she ends up in the Circle, that she had often wondered if things would have been better if she'd just been sent there in the first place. She seems to constantly feel guilty for giving her family an abnormal life. When she gets taken away, she sees this chance for them again. Her mother gets to be a noble again and her brother/sister can live comfortably and not have to worry over her constantly. So it makes sense that she wouldn't try to run for a number of reasons.

She's fairly religious, so part of her must think this is what she deserves; this is where the Maker wants her. Plus, as others have said, she does at least have some sort of purpose to her life in the Circle. Before she had to hide her magic, and now she gets to flaunt it and teach it to others. So the Circle doesn't seem so horrible. She also tells Anders that she would never be brave enough to run like he did. If she runs, she puts herself at risk of death, tranquility, or other punishment. It seems better to keep her head down and follow all the rules. As Meredith points out, she's a "good mage." But most importantly, if she runs she'll put her family in danger. At least before it was the family's choice to run. If she escapes, she'll be forcing it on them.

She in part probably has it easier than some because of her family's status. As long as she follows all the rules, she'll mostly be okay. What would it look like if the Champion's harrowed sister was made tranquil? It's easy to cover up abuses to some no name mage with no connection to their family. Not so easy when the family is beloved by most of the city and keeps in regular contact. Even then, she still has to make sure to watch out for herself. She mentions in her first letter to Hawke about keeping away from Alrik. So she's clearly aware that there are dangers in the Circle that she has carefully avoid.

I guess, to sum up, she thinks the Circle is alright because it lets her practice magic and it lets her family live a normal life. By the end of the game, she realizes that if the Circle didn't exist in the first place, she could have had both of those things anyway. She shouldn't have had to hide her magic in the first place. Her family never should have had to be on the run like criminals just so that they could all live together like other families.

And that, I think, is what Anders is getting at when he tells her she doesn't realize what's at stake. She's only content because she's gotten part of the life she should have had all along. She hasn't yet realized the full injustice of it. She should never have felt guilty for being born and having a family that loved her. She should have been allowed to be around other mages, teach them, learn from them, AND be with her family and free.

[DragonRacer]

Definitely agree with the camp that feels Bethany is happy to just not be on the run anymore and doesn't feel she's putting her family in danger anymore... moreso than being concerned about her own freedom.

Also, I think there may be some Stockholm Syndrome going on there, perhaps to some degree.

Plus, she's the Champion of Kirkwall's sister. Nobody's gonna lay a finger on her if they know what's good for them, both personal safety-wise and politically.

[SurelyForth]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

I guess, to sum up, she thinks the Circle is alright because it lets her practice magic and it lets her family live a normal life. By the end of the game, she realizes that if the Circle didn't exist in the first place, she could have had both of those things anyway. She shouldn't have had to hide her magic in the first place. Her family never should have had to be on the run like criminals just so that they could all live together like other families.

And that, I think, is what Anders is getting at when he tells her she doesn't realize what's at stake. She's only content because she's gotten part of the life she should have had all along. She hasn't yet realized the full injustice of it. She should never have felt guilty for being born and having a family that loved her. She should have been allowed to be around other mages, teach them, learn from them, AND be with her family and free.

*this* 

[Heidenreich]

SurelyForth wrote...

YamiSnuffles wrote...

I guess, to sum up, she thinks the Circle is alright because it lets her practice magic and it lets her family live a normal life. By the end of the game, she realizes that if the Circle didn't exist in the first place, she could have had both of those things anyway. She shouldn't have had to hide her magic in the first place. Her family never should have had to be on the run like criminals just so that they could all live together like other families.

And that, I think, is what Anders is getting at when he tells her she doesn't realize what's at stake. She's only content because she's gotten part of the life she should have had all along. She hasn't yet realized the full injustice of it. She should never have felt guilty for being born and having a family that loved her. She should have been allowed to be around other mages, teach them, learn from them, AND be with her family and free.

*this* 

We need to lavish her with gifts.

[nitefyre410]

Arquen wrote...

That's exactly what I meant -- That mages especially circle mages will probably want to remain in their comfort zone.

Anders forces a rebellion, but I don't doubt for a second that mages will also oppose the rebellion and want the circles to return. The Templars even rebel and the Seekers are trying to keep it all together at this point. I see it being a hodgepodge of maintain the status quo on one side and lets change the world on the other side. I think it will split on an individual basis whereas mages and templars will probably go to both sides as they believe.

Of course going back to the whole propoganda of the Chantry thing I would assume they are conjuring stories and BS about how the rebellion actually started. Some insane abomination took over the circle and convinced other mages etc. to bomb the chantry and kill everyone inside -- a true mark of terror and evil. One that justified the ROA! -- ALL HAIL THE MAKER! or some such crap.

Yet going back to Bethany what I find the most disturbing is that she doesn't seem happy, but she doesn't try to RUN either. If the circle was so bad and so horrible a place where beatings and tranquility and rapes and etc. etc. were taking place daily you would think she would want to escape any chance she could. It almost seems like she is content, and maybe not happy to be a prisoner, but clearly not oppressed. Whether that is because she is the champion's sister, chooses to ignore these things happening, or simply does not know about the abuses (doubtful) I doubt she would want to stay in such a place. That's the puzzling thing to me.

The way Anders makes it seem is that there is tranquil and death and oppression around every corner. That nobody could possibly be content there, and that the whole system needs to DIAF. As I said his brain just explodes when she says she doesn't want to escape, and is willing to go back because she is tired of being an apostate and she has found purpose. It's like but what about the evils? the abuses? the tranquil solution? She doesn't seem to think those are very problematic otherwise she would have spoken up no doubt.

 


Even when that comfort zone is not  good for them  and thats whats off about the whole  Circle systems.   The  Circles are  Golden prison's and even  if  bars are gold and the bed is nice yours still locked up and watched everyday...Its a Gilded Cage.   Its System that in some ways reminds me of our  prision systems and one of the  many reasons that many  keep going back  " 3 hots and cot" 


As for as  Bethany not trying to escape -  several things come to mind . The foremost is  the  right  moment ,  if she tries to break out at the wrong and gets caught she could  and most like would find herself in the hands of the abusers that  she is trying to escape.   Bethany  goal while in the Circle - Stay out sight and off the extremist in the Templars radar and  if a good  opening for escape exisit get out ASAP. Also you have to take the phalactry in consideration as long as they have that the templars  will be able to find her.   So best move for would be to lay low and not draw too much attention to herself.  She says in her letter she tries her best to stay away from the Templars that seem creepy to her. Most she sees as just doing their job. 



 

[Taihsigva]

Bethany might also not want to admit that the Circle is as bad as Anders said, even if she is seeing some of the things that happen to unluckier mages than herself. She spent much of her life wondering if it would be better not to be on the run, kind of wanting to be in the Circle, and then she goes willingly when the templars come, even to the point of contradicting a Hawke who'd rather kill the templars and run again. I could see it being difficult for her to admit that there were downsides to something she'd wanted and allowed for herself, especially while conversing with Anders, who won't even let her be content with the not-so-terrible aspects of Circle life.

[nranola]

berelinde wrote...

Thank you! Between your gorgeous screenshot(s) and Yami's delightful art, I've got a the best desktop slideshow EVER!

Sorry it took so long to thank you properly. I was at work and had trouble staying logged in.

Haha it's okay, you don't really need to thank me. I'm glad you liked it so much though! If I get any more decent Anders shots (and I probably will, running this Hawke on Ander rivalmance) I'll be sure to share them. ;D

[Arquen]

I just keep seeing it over and over in my head and I can't help but wonder if Anders isn't exaggerating the atrocities somewhat. I understand with and agree with all the reasons Bethany remains in the circle. Except for Stockholm syndrome, I can't buy into that from her. That usually happens to someone who is systematically abused and feels worthless relying on their captor to provide their basic needs and survival therefore sympathizing with them because it is the only thread to survival they have.

Bethany seems to have more self worth, confidence, and pride in herself as a mage than she did before.

The one thing I do like is what Yami said about how she doesn't see the big picture the same way Anders does. That sure the circle gives her a glimpse of the life she could have had, but the big picture is that mages shouldn't have to feel ashamed and shouldn't have to feel guilty about putting their family in danger for hiding them in the first place. There should be a better life for all mages, not just a gilded cage. I like that. I can accept that.

What I have a hard time picturing is all the brutality of the Kirkwall circle. Alrik and a few other corrupt Templars with isolated incidents, not systematic oppression of the Templars abusing, raping, beating, tranquiling, killing off the mages. It is hard to tell wtf is going on in that circle and even moreso now that Bethany seems to actually LIKE it there. As stated she may not be happy, but she isn't the stone-cold unhappy person she is when she is a warden. She has purpose and feels content. Not true happiness, because she is being individually oppressed I would say ... or at least psychologically oppressed, but she isn't being abused. I don't even know if she feels threatened. It doesn't seem so.

So this whole systemic oppression of the Templars seems more like isolated incidents of Templars that simply need to be put down (Alrik), but it begs the question .. is the circle really that bad?

Oh god I'm going to get flamed so hard for this aren't I? 

Modifié par Arquen, 03 août 2011 - 04:08 .

[YamiSnuffles]

I already wall-o-texted on this and if I try to argue more, it will just lead to more walls. So, have some mages.