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[SurelyForth]

To add to Queen-of-Stuffs awesome post, don't forget that Bethany is powerful enough to be a Grey Warden and incredibly capable. She's lived life and knows how to survive in a way that most Circle mages don't. And, like others have mentioned, if she gets hurt or killed or goes missing, someone will care. Someone with connections will care. She has to realize that she's protected in ways that other mages are not, which probably accounts for a lot of her ability to just settle in and keep her head down and enjoy what she can of the experience.


by Bluewickedbehemoth

Modifié par SurelyForth, 03 août 2011 - 04:38 .

[Sialater]

So... was it in fact all part of The Plan for Justice to lead Anders to the most oppressive Circle in Thedas? Or was it just happy circumstance?

[nitefyre410]

Arquen wrote...

I just keep seeing it over and over in my head and I can't help but wonder if Anders isn't exaggerating the atrocities somewhat. I understand with and agree with all the reasons Bethany remains in the circle. Except for Stockholm syndrome, I can't buy into that from her. That usually happens to someone who is systematically abused and feels worthless relying on their captor to provide their basic needs and survival therefore sympathizing with them because it is the only thread to survival they have.

Bethany seems to have more self worth, confidence, and pride in herself as a mage than she did before.

The one thing I do like is what Yami said about how she doesn't see the big picture the same way Anders does. That sure the circle gives her a glimpse of the life she could have had, but the big picture is that mages shouldn't have to feel ashamed and shouldn't have to feel guilty about putting their family in danger for hiding them in the first place. There should be a better life for all mages, not just a gilded cage. I like that. I can accept that.

What I have a hard time picturing is all the brutality of the Kirkwall circle. Alrik and a few other corrupt Templars with isolated incidents, not systematic oppression of the Templars abusing, raping, beating, tranquiling, killing off the mages. It is hard to tell wtf is going on in that circle and even moreso now that Bethany seems to actually LIKE it there. As stated she may not be happy, but she isn't the stone-cold unhappy person she is when she is a warden. She has purpose and feels content. Not true happiness, because she is being individually oppressed I would say ... or at least psychologically oppressed, but she isn't being abused. I don't even know if she feels threatened. It doesn't seem so.

So this whole systemic oppression of the Templars seems more like isolated incidents of Templars that simply need to be put down (Alrik), but it begs the question .. is the circle really that bad?

Oh god I'm going to get flamed so hard for this aren't I? 

No you won't and if you do...I'll stick up for you.  

Thing with people like Alrik is that they are like roaches where there is one , there about bound to be more.   According the  evidence that we are given Kirkwall is the execption to the rule when it comes to CIrcles.   I also think Kirkwall was the  crack in the dam, and I willing to beat that  there were plenty of covers ups on the Templars part about some of the crimes that were committed in other circles.   When you give  some one the much power over some else  in that type of situation  bad things happen they always do. 

Now I want to go play Catherine but yall keep pulling me back in.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

To me, one of the defining qualities of the circle is that everything is generally OK... until the moment it isn't, at which point there is absolutely nothing you can do. That's the sneakiness of it, the cleverness... you can have a lordling visit and he'll see naught but happy students and shiny templars. He doesn't have to see the black cells, or hear the new apprentices, the ones who are young enough to still cry for their mothers.

That's the trick of it, the way they keep the Aequitarians in check. If the whole thing was rotten to the core, with every mage being raped and beaten all the time, the circles would rebel. The key part of the trick, the game that any tyrant knows, is to make sure everyone who is important never sees the horrors, to make sure that more than half of your people are at least content, so they will not speak out an risk becoming part of the minority who are... not content.

Any time someone is important, a Champion's sister, a noble's child, they have a significant chance of receiving special treatment and being shielded from the bulk of abuse. Beth probably doesn't see any of the bad stuff, and certainly wouldn't be subjected to it. She's even allowed to send letters to Hawke, as Finn was allowed to write to his parents. We know from in-game that other mages are killed, beaten, or tranquilled for trying to communicate with their families. People who become Bethany's friends would be protected as well, so she wouldn't experience the bad stuff through their stories, either. Anders was nobody when he entered the tower, so he saw it from the perspective of a rebellious nobody. There was no blood to shelter him, no powerful relative waiting outside the gates, hanging on every word of his letters, so he got to see the dark bits, the bit that they'd never let a sweet, influential noble like Bethany or Finn see. It's not luck. It's not even strength. It's cleverness and manipulativeness on the Templar's part.

We know that Wynne, sweet old cooperative Aequitarian Wynne, had a child taken from her and was never allowed to see it. That is a thing that we know for certain happened, and will happen again. That's policy. Karl was tranquilled past his harrowing: that happened. We know of a dozen other atrocities that happen. Not everybody gets to see everything.

I don't think Anders is exaggerating; he never says that every mage experiences what he experienced. The point is that any mage could, at any time. He speaks for the bottom ten percent, for those who were the least fortunate, the least cooperative, the least powerful or popular or pliant.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 03 août 2011 - 04:46 .

[Sialater]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

To me, one of the defining qualities of the circle is that everything is generally OK... until the moment it isn't, at which point there is absolutely nothing you can do. That's the sneakiness of it, the cleverness... you can have a lordling visit and he'll see naught but happy students and shiny templars. He doesn't have to see the black cells, or hear the new apprentices, the ones who are young enough to still cry for their mothers.

That's the trick of it, the way they keep the Aequitarians in check. If the whole thing was rotten to the core, with every mage being raped and beaten all the time, the circles would rebel. The key part of the trick, the game that any tyrant knows, is to make sure everyone who is important never sees the horrors, to make sure that more than half of your people are at least content, so they will not speak out an risk becoming part of the minority who are... not content.

Any time someone is important, a Champion's sister, a noble's child, they have a significant chance of receiving special treatment and being shielded from the bulk of abuse. Beth probably doesn't see any of the bad stuff, and certainly wouldn't be subjected to it. She's even allowed to send letters to Hawke, as Finn was allowed to write to his parents. We know from in-game that other mages are killed, beaten, or tranquilled for trying to communicate with their families. People who become Bethany's friends would be protected as well, so she wouldn't experience the bad stuff through their stories, either. Anders was nobody when he entered the tower, so he saw it from the perspective of a rebellious nobody. There was no blood to shelter him, no powerful relative waiting outside the gates, hanging on every word of his letters, so he got to see the dark bits, the bit that they'd never let a sweet, influential noble like Bethany or Finn see. It's not luck. It's not even strength. It's cleverness and manipulativeness on the Templar's part.

We know that Wynne, sweet old cooperative Aequitarian Wynne, had a child taken from her and was never allowed to see it. That is a thing that we know for certain happened, and will happen again. That's policy. Karl was tranquilled past his harrowing: that happened. We know of a dozen other atrocities that happen. Not everybody gets to see everything.

I don't think Anders is exaggerating; he never says that every mage experiences what he experienced. The point is that any mage could, at any time. He speaks for the bottom ten percent, for those who were the least fortunate, the least cooperative, the least powerful or popular or pliant.

Interesting. So a Surana would have had it worse, then, than an Amell by your reasoning? 

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Sialater wrote...
Interesting. So a Surana would have had it worse, then, than an Amell by your reasoning? 

Possibly. Not necessarily.

Two things win you safety: influence and obedience. Your family has to actually care about you for it to work, they have to be expecting your letters, they have to show some desire to stay in contact with you. If your particular parents disowned you when you got sent over, you might not get any special treatement.

But no matter what, being sweet and calm and obedient and pliant will get you through things. I played an Amell and my friend a Surana, and we talked about this. My Amell was like a lot of other Amells... boisterious and rebellious, while her Surana was more of a "work within the system, you'll make First Enchanter one day." I think that an Amell who has caring family on the outside would almost certainly be given more leeway than a Surana, and probably more protection.

Sialater wrote...

So... was it in fact all part of The Plan for Justice to lead Anders to the most oppressive Circle in Thedas? Or was it just happy circumstance?

I wanted to talk about this too. It's my theory that Anders was directionless after the merger, and came up with a bunch of possible plans of action. I think that Justice supported going to Kirkwall specifically because he knew it was a place of great suffering and of great power, a place where history was mutable and the world could be changed.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

-snip-

I don't think Anders is exaggerating; he never says that every mage experiences what he experienced. The point is that any mage could, at any time. He speaks for the bottom ten percent, for those who were the least fortunate, the least cooperative, the least powerful or popular or pliant.

I agree with you, but are you sure about that last part? Everytime Anders speaks of the Circle, he talks about the imprisonment and the natural right everyone has to be free and doesn't mention abuses specifically as far as I recall. One conversation he has with Seb, he pretty much states that it's the lack of freedom itself that is the issue.

Oh no, I don't think that the abuses are the primary cause of his... cause, but this particular conversation was about the abuses. It's an argument I hear all the time "oh how horrible, if you're a mage you have to go to school!" 

The fundamental lack of freedom thing is the big issue, the problem is it's not something most mages think about until it actually comes up. Until the day you fall in love or have a child or just go stir crazy, you might think the tower is a better situation than most have, and be content, especially if you were some starving peasant or city elf before, or if you don't remember what freedom is like. And when the time comes when you finally want something you can't have it's too late, and you either accept the status quo or object, and become one of the miserable minority crushed beneath the templars' heel.

That contentment was what Anders had to unsettle. He had to make the Aequitarians realize that the essential lack of freedom was more dangerous than they would imagine, even if they had specifically never had a moment where they specifically felt trapped. He had to make them see "this could happen to you, at any time, no matter how cooperative or smilng you are. We all dance on the blade of this knife, any Knight Commander could rob you of your life at any moment on a whim." 

[SurelyForth]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...
It baffles me that Meredith allowed templars like Ser Alrik and Ser Karras among her ranks.

I'm not baffled. I quoted the Wiki not too long ago, but templars like Ser Alrik and Ser Karras are actually encouraged because they don't let their emotions (ie. sympathy) get in the way of their "fanatacism" (ie. willingness to be rape/murder templars).

Modifié par SurelyForth, 03 août 2011 - 06:56 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

SurelyForth wrote...

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...
It baffles me that Meredith allowed templars like Ser Alrik and Ser Karras among her ranks.

I'm not. I quoted the Wiki not too long ago, but templars like Ser Alrik and Ser Karras are actually encouraged because they don't let their emotions (ie. sympathy) get in the way of their "fanatacism" (ie. willingness to be rape/murder templars).

Indeed. I'd honestly like to see the Dragon Age II stats for the big end decision. (like we know that 36% make the renegade decision at the end of ME2, for instance.) The Templars are SO corrupt that it's ridiculous, and I wonder if making the mages batty really got them all the way up to 50% of players siding with the Templars.

It would have been better to do fewer crazy blood mages and more sympathetic templars, in my opinion. If there had been hints that an internal push for systematic change was beginning to surface from within the order, it would make the final decision much more difficult and much more interesting. Honestly, in Dragon Age: Origins I found the Templars generally more sympathetic, because of all the nice ones we saw doing good in the general world, while in DA2 all the "harmless peacekeeping" seemed to be done by Aveline and her guards.

Edit: actually, I think that the Ella encounter could have been written better, too. What if there were a good templar, unquestionably good, who was helping smuggle mages out from the inside, protecting Ella, and Anders killed him? Making Justice's desire to kill every last templar seem crazy and having Anders be unable to resist that impulse seems a lot more plausible and convincing. Alternatively, it could be that Anders kills Ella when she's trying to protect the Templar who was helping her... that would actually make sense.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 03 août 2011 - 07:26 .

[highcastle]

Regarding the Circle and special treatment, CGG was right in saying some people receive special treatment. Consider Kilmainham Gaol in Dublin. The gaol housed many notable revolutionaries after the Easter rising. While other inmates were housed in atrocious conditions (think: twelve people housed in single occupancy cells, others chained to the hallways and forced to live in their own filth), some of the wealthier and more important prisoners were given special housing, permitted to bring their own food and furniture into their cells, etc.

I'm not saying this is what happened to Bethany, but there is real world precedent. And it would make sense for the Templars to want to keep her safe, at least once Hawke is made Champion.


Also, it's a fallacy to assume that Stockholm Syndrome only applies in abusive circumstances. It can kick in under all sorts of conditions. Prisoners or hostages simply must feel like their health and safety depends on their caretakers' whims. There is every chance that the Circle fosters such feelings. I haven't actually beaten the game with a non-mage!Hawke, which means I have limited experience with Bethany, so I can't say whether she's afflicted or not. All I'm saying is that it's possible someone could have Stockholm Syndrome in the Circle, especially considering Templars like Karras and Alrik.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

highcastle wrote...
Also, it's a fallacy to assume that Stockholm Syndrome only applies in abusive circumstances. It can kick in under all sorts of conditions. Prisoners or hostages simply must feel like their health and safety depends on their caretakers' whims. There is every chance that the Circle fosters such feelings. I haven't actually beaten the game with a non-mage!Hawke, which means I have limited experience with Bethany, so I can't say whether she's afflicted or not. All I'm saying is that it's possible someone could have Stockholm Syndrome in the Circle, especially considering Templars like Karras and Alrik.

Stockholm Syndrom primarily occurs in less abusive circumstances. It's been said that in cases where captors don't physically abuse their captives, Stockholm syndrome is more likely to occur. From the Wikipedia page (which aligns nicely with what I remember from psych/soc).

"The captive sees the perpetrator as showing some degree of kindness. Kindness serves as the cornerstone of Stockholm syndrome; the condition will not develop unless the captor exhibits it in some form towards the hostage. However, captives often misinterpret a lack of abuse as kindness and may develop feelings of appreciation for this perceived benevolence. If the captor is purely evil and abusive, the hostage will respond with hatred. But, if perpetrators show some kindness, victims will submerge the anger they feel in response to the terror and concentrate on the captors’ “good side” to protect themselves."

The captor having the ability to kill the captive at any time and refraining from doing so is also a component; the Templars have this, as well.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 03 août 2011 - 07:34 .

[Evilnor]

Well, they're all British accents to me (except Seb, of course). Sometimes I can tell a northern accent if it's obvious, like Christopher Eccleston. All accents from the British Isles are sexy to me, though the Welsh accent has a special place in my heart. Thanks for the info, though, Elle!

Yeah, you can tell I'm a midwest American rube.

[highcastle]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

highcastle wrote...
Also, it's a fallacy to assume that Stockholm Syndrome only applies in abusive circumstances. It can kick in under all sorts of conditions. Prisoners or hostages simply must feel like their health and safety depends on their caretakers' whims. There is every chance that the Circle fosters such feelings. I haven't actually beaten the game with a non-mage!Hawke, which means I have limited experience with Bethany, so I can't say whether she's afflicted or not. All I'm saying is that it's possible someone could have Stockholm Syndrome in the Circle, especially considering Templars like Karras and Alrik.

Stockholm Syndrom primarily occurs in less abusive circumstances. It's been said that in cases where captors don't physically abuse their captives, Stockholm syndrome is more likely to occur. From the Wikipedia page (which aligns nicely with what I remember from psych/soc).

"The captive sees the perpetrator as showing some degree of kindness. Kindness serves as the cornerstone of Stockholm syndrome; the condition will not develop unless the captor exhibits it in some form towards the hostage. However, captives often misinterpret a lack of abuse as kindness and may develop feelings of appreciation for this perceived benevolence. If the captor is purely evil and abusive, the hostage will respond with hatred. But, if perpetrators show some kindness, victims will submerge the anger they feel in response to the terror and concentrate on the captors’ “good side” to protect themselves."

The captor having the ability to kill the captive at any time and refraining from doing so is also a component; the Templars have this, as well.

Bingo! Thanks for typing this all up and providing the link. I did what I could from my phone's keyboard, but there's only so much my fingers can handle before they cramp. At least I've got my computer and it's wonderful quote function now.

And criminologists study cases of Stockholm Syndrome in modern prisons. It's an unpleasant reality few people like to acknowledge, but it does happen even in western prisons. In fact, some less than scrupulous wardens have suggested trying to purposefully encourage the syndrome in its prisoners (thinking it might make them easier to control). This has largely been deemed in violation of the 8th Ammendment in the States. But now I'm getting off topic.

[Fluffenstein]

Off topic request: Can someone get me a side view image of Anders? His nose is being a pain to draw.

[Furtled]

highcastle wrote...
There have been quite a few prisoner/guard studies done in the past several years. Criminology is a fascinating field (and I'm not just saying that because it's one of my majors...though it helps). Considering the Circles are stated to be run in many respects like prisons--including their willingness to put certain mages into solitary confinement--there are quite a few parallels you can draw between the two institutions.

No I agree, I find it fascinating myself. Detachment and depersonalisation techniques (Templar helms), people's responses to authority figures in stressful/morally dubious situations (Carver and Cullen's willingness to follow Meredith's orders to a point) etc. - my studies only stretched to propaganda and various marketing theories, but everything's so interwoven when it comes to human behaviour/motivation.

Find it pretty easy to see how a character like Anders came to his opinion of the Circles and why Bethany seems happier when she joins the one in Kirkwall despite it's problems. But like CulturalGeekGirl said, I think the game would have benefited from more reasonable Templars shown to be doing good work opposed to ramping up the crazy mage quota.

Modifié par Furtled, 03 août 2011 - 09:37 .

[Furtled]

ademska wrote...
i'm american too, and even though i've got uk ties take anything i say with a grain of salt. adam howden's anders voice (which i assume is probs closest to his regular voice) isn't particularly west country, but the brekker accent was from what i remember of it. ellem would be a much better source for all things english.

The only West Country accent I spotted in game is the Coterie rep who sends you after Javaris, there's a few cracking Northern accents scattered about Kirkwall (one of the Templars in the mage-friendly end game springs to mind). Wouldn't feel too bad, I worked in America on and off for years and still have a lot of difficulty telling some American accents/dialects apart.

Modifié par Furtled, 03 août 2011 - 10:06 .

[pagerunner]

Furtled wrote...

ademska wrote...
i'm american too, and even though i've got uk ties take anything i say with a grain of salt. adam howden's anders voice (which i assume is probs closest to his regular voice) isn't particularly west country, but the brekker accent was from what i remember of it. ellem would be a much better source for all things english.

The only West Country accent I spotted in game is the Coterie rep who sends you after Javaris, there's a few cracking Northern accents scattered about Kirkwall (one of the Templars in the mage-friendly end game springs to mind). Wouldn't feel too bad, I worked in America on and off for years and still have a lot of difficulty telling some American accents/dialects apart.

American (and Canadian, for that matter) accents tend to be much more discrete in the East and then start averaging out the further west you get.  I grew up in Seattle, which accent-wise is pretty much Blandsville.  The other side of the country can get trickier.  (Slang can give it away sometimes even if you're fuzzy on the accent, though.  For example, if anyone ever talks about being on line for something and they DON'T mean the Internet?  New Yorker. 

[highcastle]

Furtled wrote...

highcastle wrote...
There have been quite a few prisoner/guard studies done in the past several years. Criminology is a fascinating field (and I'm not just saying that because it's one of my majors...though it helps). Considering the Circles are stated to be run in many respects like prisons--including their willingness to put certain mages into solitary confinement--there are quite a few parallels you can draw between the two institutions.

No I agree, I find it fascinating myself. Detachment and depersonalisation techniques (Templar helms), people's responses to authority figures in stressful/morally dubious situations (Carver and Cullen's willingness to follow Meredith's orders to a point) etc. - my studies only stretched to propaganda and various marketing theories, but everything's so interwoven when it comes to human behaviour/motivation.

Find it pretty easy to see how a character like Anders came to his opinion of the Circles and why Bethany seems happier when she joins the one in Kirkwall despite it's problems. But like CulturalGeekGirl said, I think the game would have benefited from more reasonable Templars shown to be doing good work opposed to ramping up the crazy mage quota.

This might be branching into off topic territory, but I'd be very interested in seeing more of the Gallows from the inside. Particularly where the mages actually live. Unlike the Tower in Ferelden, the Gallows were actually built as a prison, and there are generally distinguishing characteristics of prison architecture that sets them apart from other buildings. Probably the most famous of these is Jeremy Bentham's Panoptican or "All-Seeing Eye."

I brough up Kilmainham Gaol before. Have a look at the "new" wing (which was designed with Bentham's model in mind):



The idea is that the guards can see the prisoners from any angle, but the prisoners' view is restricted and they never know when the guards are watching. This is supposed to make prisoners behave themselves. In actuality, it often fosters feelings of paranoia that can increase strain and lead to more violence (either self-inflicted or inflicted against others).

So why bring this up? Well, when we talk about mages all turning to blood magic and forbidden arts, we tend to lay the blame on whatever bad mojo's been going down in Kirkwall for centuries. And that's probably partially to blame. But I'd argue the Gallows itself is set up to inadvertently encourage that sort of behavior. Mages feel threatened, cornered, like everyone's watching, the guards aren't really human in those concealing helms of theirs, and you never know when they might be watching. Mages go missing (like when Alrik takes an interest in you). Why not turn to blood magic? What else have you really got to lose?

[nitefyre410]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Yeah. It's a little like kicking dogs in the side with the explanation that if you don't they'll bite you - and when they inevitably do end up biting you, you use that as an example of why you need to keep on kicking. I've actually seen someone state that because the mages defended themselves in the last battle they proved the templars right, that they should have instead gone on their knees and allowed themselves to be slaughtered. Boggles the mind.

Yeah I saw that  agruement before in the same thread - I still have bruise from my forehead hitting my desk.

[Furtled]

highcastle wrote...
This might be branching into off topic territory, but I'd be very interested in seeing more of the Gallows from the inside. Particularly where the mages actually live. Unlike the Tower in Ferelden, the Gallows were actually built as a prison, and there are generally distinguishing characteristics of prison architecture that sets them apart from other buildings. Probably the most famous of these is Jeremy Bentham's Panoptican or "All-Seeing Eye."

I brough up Kilmainham Gaol before. Have a look at the "new" wing (which was designed with Bentham's model in mind):
*pic snipped*

The idea is that the guards can see the prisoners from any angle, but the prisoners' view is restricted and they never know when the guards are watching. This is supposed to make prisoners behave themselves. In actuality, it often fosters feelings of paranoia that can increase strain and lead to more violence (either self-inflicted or inflicted against others).

So why bring this up? Well, when we talk about mages all turning to blood magic and forbidden arts, we tend to lay the blame on whatever bad mojo's been going down in Kirkwall for centuries. And that's probably partially to blame. But I'd argue the Gallows itself is set up to inadvertently encourage that sort of behavior. Mages feel threatened, cornered, like everyone's watching, the guards aren't really human in those concealing helms of theirs, and you never know when they might be watching. Mages go missing (like when Alrik takes an interest in you). Why not turn to blood magic? What else have you really got to lose?

Given the way Kirkwall's architecture is described in game (Lowtown designed to be easy to cut off/segregate and to disuade slaves assembling along with the harsh lines and massive scale of everything), it wouldn't surprise me that the same level of thought would have gone in to the Gallow's interior design. The statues alone as you enter the courtyard (cracking design work from the art team there) are enough to show what the Tevinters wanted their slaves/prisoners to feel.

Agree that architecture can have a massive effect on people's behaviour, churches and British colonial buildings are probably the best example I'm familiar with mind, although I remember something as basic as changing the colour of holding cells in UK police stations a few years back being cited for a lower number of prisoner incidents.

The Panoptican thing does make me wonder about the effects of CCTV on the general population though - but that's so far off topic it's hopped on a boat and half way to Par Vollen.

Modifié par Furtled, 04 août 2011 - 01:06 .