57019 réponses à ce sujet

[Mekarah]

Weren't all the phylacteries in Denerim? Maybe when the archdemon attacked, they all...broke. Yeah!

/wishful thinking.

[Lady Dino]

highcastle wrote...

Sialater wrote...

DragonRacer wrote...

Hadn't thought about this poem in many years, but all the talk of the Circle as a prison reminded me of Maya Angelou's chilling "I Know Why The Caged Bird Sings"...

<snip poem>

Hmmm..... wonder if thats why they stuck feathers on his pauldrons/epaulets?

Birds have long been used to sympolize freedom. It likely has to do with their ability to fly while humans are stuck on the ground. But a more complete answer would probably be best left to someone who studied anthropology or mythology. I can just tell you that in literature, bird imagery tends to crop up when someone's talking about freedom. Just one prominent example would be the short story "The White Heron" by Sarah Orne Jewett, in which the eponymous bird (in most accepted interpretations) represents a little girl's struggle to be free of her caretaker, her gender role, and/or society as a whole.

So yeah, I think the feathers on Anders' coat are definitely meant to symbolize his struggle for freedom. Notice how the same motif creeps into Fenris' outfit, as well, rather fitting for a character who escaped slavery.

As far as symbolism goes, Anders's first outfit supports this. His second one however...

Can be seen two ways because ravens and crows have different meanings but both have black feathers.

For instance the Greeks and Romans saw crows as bad omens and ravens as good omens. The Native Americans believed ravens to be symbolic of the void and that the raven's iridescent blue and green on black feathers represented the constant change of what emerges from the void (aka people, places, and things getting so bad they lose a sense of self and emerge from the chaos different). Celts straight up saw crows as omens of death. In Europe crows were considered such bad luck that seeing a dead one was a sign of good fortune. 

So while I agree that his bird motif can be connected to his wish for freedom, I also think that there's a lot more meaning and thought being put into it. It's the big reason why I was freaking out when the new costume first showed up. The cool thing is he can be seen as both the raven and the crow simultaniously, or depending on your PoV one or the other.

I ****ing love symbolism.

[KawaiiKatie]

Mekarah wrote...

Weren't all the phylacteries in Denerim? Maybe when the archdemon attacked, they all...broke. Yeah!

/wishful thinking.

I think both Finn and Anders confirmed that the phylacteries were moved from Denerim to an unknown "more secure location"... Unless that's actually a huge Templar cover-up because the phylacteries were destroyed by rampaging Darkspawn and the Knight-Commander hastily said, "Quick! We can't let the Ferelden mages know that we have absolutely no means of tracking them! If word got out, they're be no one left in the tower but Florian and that elf who complains about his reading light!"

I wouldn't be surprised if Bioware pulled out an excuse like "the Ferelden phylacteries were secretly destroyed" or "phylacteries can't track Wardens" or "Cassandra doesn't want to call on the Ferelden Templars for help because she and Greagior had a thing and it'll be a cold day in the Beyond when she crawls back to him." ...and that honestly wouldn't bother me. But now really want to see it addressed in some way! And you all know that Anders is probably curious about it, too!

Modifié par KawaiiKatie, 04 août 2011 - 03:32 .

[Mekarah]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

Mekarah wrote...

Weren't all the phylacteries in Denerim? Maybe when the archdemon attacked, they all...broke. Yeah!

/wishful thinking.

I think both Finn and Anders confirmed that the phylacteries were moved from Denerim to an unknown "more secure location"...

Ah, yes. I'd forgotten that. When you're right, you're right!

Also, I can't deal with the ToP photo right now. I just...I don't even know. I want a t-shirt of it.

[Mekarah]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

Mekarah wrote...

Weren't all the phylacteries in Denerim? Maybe when the archdemon attacked, they all...broke. Yeah!

/wishful thinking.

I think both Finn and Anders confirmed that the phylacteries were moved from Denerim to an unknown "more secure location"...

Ah, yes. I'd forgotten that. When you're right, you're right! As for phylacteries not being able to track Wardens...maybe? Their blood has changed.

Also, I can't deal with the ToP photo right now. I just...I don't even know. I want a t-shirt of it.

Modifié par Mekarah, 04 août 2011 - 03:31 .

[Sialater]

Mekarah wrote...

Weren't all the phylacteries in Denerim? Maybe when the archdemon attacked, they all...broke. Yeah!

/wishful thinking.

All phylacteries are sent to Aeonar, IIRC.

[YamiSnuffles]

Well, it seems like at the start of a mage rebellion, one of the first smart places to strike would be where they're keeping the phylacteries. If the other Circles are anything like Ferelden, they can pretty easily destroy the ones kept on site for the unharrowed mages. And it seems like some Circles keep all of their phylacteries in the Circle. For example, they lost all of the Starkhaven phylacteries because of a fire.

For phylacteries kept in a more secure location it would be more difficult, but not impossible. Find just one sympathetic Templar and you could find them and find a way to get at them. Also, there are cases such as a mage sympathetic ruler in Ferelden who might have a way of getting the phylacteries destroyed. Or, as Sia mentioned, get a few sneaky non-mage types to bust in covertly.

[Sialater]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Mekarah wrote...


Also, I can't deal with the ToP photo right now. I just...I don't even know. I want a t-shirt of it.

I want a tattoo of it. It's just beautiful.

Sialater wrote...

Mekarah wrote...

Weren't all the phylacteries in Denerim? Maybe when the archdemon attacked, they all...broke. Yeah!

/wishful thinking.

All phylacteries are sent to Aeonar, IIRC.

Not all. Mage!Warden's phylactery is sent to Denerim.

Ooh, fine... throw a wrench into my schemes. 

I'm kidding.  Now that you mention it, I remember that being said, yes.  However, do we know that Denerim's the final stop? 

Otherwise, like someone said, maybe our Wardens got lucky and the Archdemon stepped on the building.

[Sialater]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Well, it seems like at the start of a mage rebellion, one of the first smart places to strike would be where they're keeping the phylacteries. If the other Circles are anything like Ferelden, they can pretty easily destroy the ones kept on site for the unharrowed mages. And it seems like some Circles keep all of their phylacteries in the Circle. For example, they lost all of the Starkhaven phylacteries because of a fire.

For phylacteries kept in a more secure location it would be more difficult, but not impossible. Find just one sympathetic Templar and you could find them and find a way to get at them. Also, there are cases such as a mage sympathetic ruler in Ferelden who might have a way of getting the phylacteries destroyed. Or, as Sia mentioned, get a few sneaky non-mage types to bust in covertly.

Soo.... is Anders' in Denerim?

[KawaiiKatie]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Well, it seems like at the start of a mage rebellion, one of the first smart places to strike would be where they're keeping the phylacteries. If the other Circles are anything like Ferelden, they can pretty easily destroy the ones kept on site for the unharrowed mages. And it seems like some Circles keep all of their phylacteries in the Circle. For example, they lost all of the Starkhaven phylacteries because of a fire.

For phylacteries kept in a more secure location it would be more difficult, but not impossible. Find just one sympathetic Templar and you could find them and find a way to get at them. Also, there are cases such as a mage sympathetic ruler in Ferelden who might have a way of getting the phylacteries destroyed. Or, as Sia mentioned, get a few sneaky non-mage types to bust in covertly.

I agree with all of this, and would only add that at this point, we simply don't know where the Warden or Anders' phylacteries are. It's not unlikely that both phylacteries have been destroyed by some means or another, but my original question was "is there a canon answer to the phylactery issue either way?" And I'm guessing not, since we're all spectulating! (Which I'm not complaining about, honest! Spectulating is fun. But I really wish that there was a canon answer!)

The location of Anders' and the Warden's phylacteries was teased and hinted at in Awakening and Witch Hunt... Anders reveals that all of the Ferelden mage phylacteries have been moved out of Denerim (I'm of the opinion that this is actually a Templar lie, an attempt to cover-up the destruction of the Ferelden phylacteries) and Finn tells us that, due to the "Jowan incident," not even the apprentice phylacteries were stored in the Ferelden Circle tower any longer.

So the exact location and fate of the Ferelden Circle mages' phylacteries is simply unknown... And, as luck would have it, both Anders and the mage!Warden are from the Ferelden Circle. Their phylacteries could be a legitimate threat and a means that Cassandra could employ to find them.... or their phylacteries could be a complete non-issue, one resolved long ago when Denerim was sacked.

Modifié par KawaiiKatie, 04 août 2011 - 04:07 .

[berelinde]

Sialater wrote...
Otherwise, like someone said, maybe our Wardens got lucky and the Archdemon stepped on the building.

I don't know why, but this makes me giggle like a toddler. I just keep picturing the archdeamon standing up on one hind leg while holding the other between its front claws and thinking "Ouch! Stepped on an owie! Must have been that Chantry I smashed in the Market District." Instant headcanon. Nothing can change it now, I'm afraid.

[YamiSnuffles]

Sialater wrote...

Soo.... is Anders' in Denerim?

I would hope so, since it seems like it would be easier to get at (or already destroyed in the archdemon attack). But, as you pointed out, Denerim might just be a stopping point.


EDIT: @KawaiiKatie

Unfortunately we never have been given any sort of concrete canon answer on where their phylacteries are. I agree that it is an important bit of info to have. Since there have been hints, I'm hoping that it's something we'll get an answer to later on.

Modifié par YamiSnuffles, 04 août 2011 - 04:15 .

[Sialater]

berelinde wrote...

Sialater wrote...
Otherwise, like someone said, maybe our Wardens got lucky and the Archdemon stepped on the building.

I don't know why, but this makes me giggle like a toddler. I just keep picturing the archdeamon standing up on one hind leg while holding the other between its front claws and thinking "Ouch! Stepped on an owie! Must have been that Chantry I smashed in the Market District." Instant headcanon. Nothing can change it now, I'm afraid.

That's why it was so grouchy on top of Fort Drakon.  It had a steeple stuck in one of its toes.  All we really had to do was pull it out!  

But yeah, I sincerely doubt Denerim was the final desination.

[erilben]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

Mekarah wrote...

Weren't all the phylacteries in Denerim? Maybe when the archdemon attacked, they all...broke. Yeah!

/wishful thinking.

I think both Finn and Anders confirmed that the phylacteries were moved from Denerim to an unknown "more secure location"...

Finn was talking about the phylacteries in the Ferelden tower that are kept for the apprentices, but these were moved somewhere because of Jowan. Once the mage goes through the Harrowing, the phylactery is moved to Denerim. I don't think anyone says the phylacteries were moved out of Denerim.

Why would Anders's phylactey would even work anymore? His blood is no longer the same because he's a Warden now. It's like Finn can't use the Dalsih elf Warden's blood for the scrying ritual because Warden blood is changed.

[KawaiiKatie]

erilben wrote...

Once the mage goes through the Harrowing, the phylactery is moved to Denerim. I don't think anyone says the phylacteries were moved out of Denerim.

I could have sworn Anders said as much in Awakening, because his phylactery was supposedly moved to Amaranthine.

Why would Anders's phylactey would even work anymore? His blood is no longer the same because he's a Warden now. It's like Finn can't use the Dalsih elf Warden's blood for the scrying ritual because Warden blood is changed.

All excellent points, and I wouldn't be surprised if phylacteries didn't work on Warden mages, because their blood has been tainted. But that theory has never been stated in canon, and is unfortunately refuted by Anders' personal quest in Awakening, where he fears that his and Amell's phylacteries may be used to "rope them in" should the Templars ever decide to execute every mage in the Grey Wardens.

....all of this said, this wouldn't be the first time that "mage Grey Warden" lore was "altered" in canon.... remember when that elderly mage during the Magi Origin who told you that the Grey Wardens only ever have one mage at a time? ...yeeeeeah....

[Mekarah]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

All excellent points, and I wouldn't be surprised if phylacteries didn't work on Warden mages, because their blood has been tainted. But that theory has never been stated in canon, and is unfortunately refuted by Anders' personal quest in Awakening, where he fears that his and Amell's phylacteries may be used to "rope them in" should the Templars ever decide to execute every mage in the Grey Wardens.

....all of this said, this wouldn't be the first time that "mage Grey Warden" lore was "altered" in canon.... remember when that elderly mage during the Magi Origin who told you that the Grey Wardens only ever have one mage at a time? ...yeeeeeah....

Well, at that point perhaps Anders just doesn't know that? Maybe even the Warden doesn't know. Just as we aren't really told or clarified, it could be that they haven't been either. Let's be honest, the way the end up treating Anders, perhaps it's something they wouldn't want mage wardens knowing.

[Sialater]

Mekarah wrote...

KawaiiKatie wrote...

All excellent points, and I wouldn't be surprised if phylacteries didn't work on Warden mages, because their blood has been tainted. But that theory has never been stated in canon, and is unfortunately refuted by Anders' personal quest in Awakening, where he fears that his and Amell's phylacteries may be used to "rope them in" should the Templars ever decide to execute every mage in the Grey Wardens.

....all of this said, this wouldn't be the first time that "mage Grey Warden" lore was "altered" in canon.... remember when that elderly mage during the Magi Origin who told you that the Grey Wardens only ever have one mage at a time? ...yeeeeeah....

Well, at that point perhaps Anders just doesn't know that? Maybe even the Warden doesn't know. Just as we aren't really told or clarified, it could be that they haven't been either. Let's be honest, the way the end up treating Anders, perhaps it's something they wouldn't want mage wardens knowing.

Actually, if they could use the phylacteries to keep a handle on Warden mages, why would they have put a Templar shadow on Anders?

[YamiSnuffles]

Maybe if the Warden blood theory is right, we haven't heard about it because it's just not very well known. Even though the Grey Wardens are supposed to be free to recruit whoever they want, they seem to try to usually be diplomatic about it. So I would guess outside of Blight times, they make a point of not recruiting too many mages out of Circles and don't make a habit of recruiting fugitive mages. In turn, the Chantry mostly doesn't mess with Wardens. Indeed, it seems like, aside from Anders, the Chantry usually leaves the Wardens alone.

So, what I'm saying is, the Chantry almost never tries to track down mage Wardens. The few times they did try throughout history, it might just be that they didn't quite know why tracking didn't work. And if they ever did figure it out, that definitely seems like something they would lie about/hide as best they could.

Considering all the trouble they go through to deal with Anders, it certainly doesn't seem like they have any way of tracking him. First off, why set up an elaborate trap for him if they could find him and get their hands on him whenever they wanted? After that, they go through the trouble of putting a Templar in the Wardens just to watch over him. When that all goes to hell, and Anders runs away from the Wardens, you'd think they would take the chance to finally get their hands on him. If nothing else, if would be the perfect thing to rub in the Warden's faces. Show that they are the only ones who should be in charge of dangerous mages.

As for neither Anders nor the Warden knowing, it could be that either the Wardens don't know about it themselves, or those two just haven't found out yet. It took a year for the Warden to learn about dying to slay the Archdemon. Even Alistair, who'd been with the Wardens for 6 months hadn't learned that before Duncan died. Could be they haven't been told the Circle can't track them.

Modifié par YamiSnuffles, 04 août 2011 - 05:24 .

[KawaiiKatie]

Mekarah wrote...

Well, at that point perhaps Anders just doesn't know that? Maybe even the Warden doesn't know. Just as we aren't really told or clarified, it could be that they haven't been either. Let's be honest, the way the end up treating Anders, perhaps it's something they wouldn't want mage wardens knowing.

Fair enough, and since Anders was new to the Wardens at that point in the story, I could forgive his misunderstanding about Grey Warden mages and their phylacteries... But I was more surprised that my Warden-Commander Amell still believes that his phylactery is still a threat. I think after he saved everyone from several dragons and an archdemon, my Amell has earned a little honesty from the Templars...

....then again, also I thought that after not only my Amell, but several dozen other mages stood against the archdemon, the Ferelden Circle had earned the chance to govern itself. But David Gaider had other plans, I guess...

.......wait, did Anders fight at Denerim?! Did Finn? WHOA I JUST BLEW MY OWN MIND.

[Evilnor]

Yeah, it's very likely that Anders and even a mage Warden Commander don't know if phylacteries can't track them anymore, but Anders says specifically that the phylacteries were moved from Denerim for safety reasons and he suspected Amaranthine. It's why he was IN Amaranthine in the first place to BE caught. Even if they can't be tracked, breaking the phylacteries would be a very symbolic act for achieving freedom.  There could be a range of effectiveness on phylacteries, too, where if you skip the entire country, they wouldn't even know where to start.

As for Anders and Finn taking part in the Battle of Denerim, Finn actually mentions that he hadn't been outside in three years or so, and Witch Hunt supposedly takes place about thee years after that battle . . .

As for Anders, he could have been already at large when the Blight started, still in solitary, or even helping out with the fighting. He doesn't mention anything specifically, but we know he lives through the Broken Circle portion of the plot even if you annul the Circle, which could imply that he wasn't there at the time. Regardless, with all the chaos of a huge fight, I could easily see a lone spirit healer mage disappearing during all the confusion, even after all the darkspawn are dead. Considering it's a known fact that he wants to help people, I could easily see him helping in Denerim even if he didn't come with the Circle officially.

Personally, I would place both those mages on the sidelines doing healing while other mages actually fought (Finn especially)

Modifié par Evilnor, 04 août 2011 - 05:36 .

[highcastle]

Lady Dino wrote...

highcastle wrote...

Sialater wrote...

DragonRacer wrote...

Hadn't thought about this poem in many years, but all the talk of the Circle as a prison reminded me of Maya Angelou's chilling "I Know Why The Caged Bird Sings"...

<snip poem>

Hmmm..... wonder if thats why they stuck feathers on his pauldrons/epaulets?

Birds have long been used to sympolize freedom. It likely has to do with their ability to fly while humans are stuck on the ground. But a more complete answer would probably be best left to someone who studied anthropology or mythology. I can just tell you that in literature, bird imagery tends to crop up when someone's talking about freedom. Just one prominent example would be the short story "The White Heron" by Sarah Orne Jewett, in which the eponymous bird (in most accepted interpretations) represents a little girl's struggle to be free of her caretaker, her gender role, and/or society as a whole.

So yeah, I think the feathers on Anders' coat are definitely meant to symbolize his struggle for freedom. Notice how the same motif creeps into Fenris' outfit, as well, rather fitting for a character who escaped slavery.

As far as symbolism goes, Anders's first outfit supports this. His second one however...

Can be seen two ways because ravens and crows have different meanings but both have black feathers.

For instance the Greeks and Romans saw crows as bad omens and ravens as good omens. The Native Americans believed ravens to be symbolic of the void and that the raven's iridescent blue and green on black feathers represented the constant change of what emerges from the void (aka people, places, and things getting so bad they lose a sense of self and emerge from the chaos different). Celts straight up saw crows as omens of death. In Europe crows were considered such bad luck that seeing a dead one was a sign of good fortune. 

So while I agree that his bird motif can be connected to his wish for freedom, I also think that there's a lot more meaning and thought being put into it. It's the big reason why I was freaking out when the new costume first showed up. The cool thing is he can be seen as both the raven and the crow simultaniously, or depending on your PoV one or the other.

I ****ing love symbolism.

Crows and ravens get bad raps in lots of mythology because they're carrion eaters. Thus they're associated strongly with death. But birds in general are still tied to freedom. So yes, Anders' second outfit is strongly linked to both death and freedom. Of course, in some respects, he views his death as a type of release (from Justice, responsibility, or whatever else you'd like to believe), so the freedom conotations still apply...they're just a bit darker.

[Sialater]

highcastle wrote...

Lady Dino wrote...

highcastle wrote...

Sialater wrote...

DragonRacer wrote...

Hadn't thought about this poem in many years, but all the talk of the Circle as a prison reminded me of Maya Angelou's chilling "I Know Why The Caged Bird Sings"...

<snip poem>

Hmmm..... wonder if thats why they stuck feathers on his pauldrons/epaulets?

Birds have long been used to sympolize freedom. It likely has to do with their ability to fly while humans are stuck on the ground. But a more complete answer would probably be best left to someone who studied anthropology or mythology. I can just tell you that in literature, bird imagery tends to crop up when someone's talking about freedom. Just one prominent example would be the short story "The White Heron" by Sarah Orne Jewett, in which the eponymous bird (in most accepted interpretations) represents a little girl's struggle to be free of her caretaker, her gender role, and/or society as a whole.

So yeah, I think the feathers on Anders' coat are definitely meant to symbolize his struggle for freedom. Notice how the same motif creeps into Fenris' outfit, as well, rather fitting for a character who escaped slavery.

As far as symbolism goes, Anders's first outfit supports this. His second one however...

Can be seen two ways because ravens and crows have different meanings but both have black feathers.

For instance the Greeks and Romans saw crows as bad omens and ravens as good omens. The Native Americans believed ravens to be symbolic of the void and that the raven's iridescent blue and green on black feathers represented the constant change of what emerges from the void (aka people, places, and things getting so bad they lose a sense of self and emerge from the chaos different). Celts straight up saw crows as omens of death. In Europe crows were considered such bad luck that seeing a dead one was a sign of good fortune. 

So while I agree that his bird motif can be connected to his wish for freedom, I also think that there's a lot more meaning and thought being put into it. It's the big reason why I was freaking out when the new costume first showed up. The cool thing is he can be seen as both the raven and the crow simultaniously, or depending on your PoV one or the other.

I ****ing love symbolism.

Crows and ravens get bad raps in lots of mythology because they're carrion eaters. Thus they're associated strongly with death. But birds in general are still tied to freedom. So yes, Anders' second outfit is strongly linked to both death and freedom. Of course, in some respects, he views his death as a type of release (from Justice, responsibility, or whatever else you'd like to believe), so the freedom conotations still apply...they're just a bit darker.

Well, there's also the caveat that symbolism is in the eye of the beholder and Bioware just gave them feathers because the fur texture sucked.