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[Frishmet]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

erilben wrote...

Once the mage goes through the Harrowing, the phylactery is moved to Denerim. I don't think anyone says the phylacteries were moved out of Denerim.

I could have sworn Anders said as much in Awakening, because his phylactery was supposedly moved to Amaranthine.

Why would Anders's phylactey would even work anymore? His blood is no longer the same because he's a Warden now. It's like Finn can't use the Dalsih elf Warden's blood for the scrying ritual because Warden blood is changed.

All excellent points, and I wouldn't be surprised if phylacteries didn't work on Warden mages, because their blood has been tainted. But that theory has never been stated in canon, and is unfortunately refuted by Anders' personal quest in Awakening, where he fears that his and Amell's phylacteries may be used to "rope them in" should the Templars ever decide to execute every mage in the Grey Wardens.

....all of this said, this wouldn't be the first time that "mage Grey Warden" lore was "altered" in canon.... remember when that elderly mage during the Magi Origin who told you that the Grey Wardens only ever have one mage at a time? ...yeeeeeah....

I remember David Gaider answering questions related to the phylacteries but I can't for the life of me remember where to find it now. But one thing he did say - and I can only paraphrase..  is that you have to be within a certain range of the mage for it to work. It glowed brighter or something the closer you were. Just having the phylactery wouldn't help if those who had it were not within whatever the critical distance was.

Modifié par Frishmet, 04 août 2011 - 06:58 .

[Sinaxi]

Ahh, topics of Mages and Circles...I was looking at Morrigan's dialogue on the wiki and was reminded how much I loved all her conversations with Wynne and what she would say about mages haha.

(entering Lake Calenhad Docks) "What is the name they have for mother and I? Apostates? Truly it boggles the mind."
(at Lake Calenhad shoreline) "How very fitting that they would build a prison for mages in the middle of a lake and make it look like a giant phallus."
(entering the Apprentice Quarters) "So the mages are all locked within? A fitting end for those who gave up their own freedom."

* Wynne: What you said before, Morrigan... about the Circle of Magi being a leash... do you truly believe that?
* Morrigan: Only a fool would think otherwise.
* Wynne: You would prefer a world where young mages were slain by the ignorant for their talent? Taught to fear their abilities?
* Morrigan: That is what the Circle teaches. You fear your abilities, instead of reveling in them.
* Wynne: Believing ourselves to be superior over other men is what led to the Imperium... and the darkspawn.
* Morrigan: *Scoffs* I cannot believe you give credence to such drivel.
* Wynne: Those who do not heed the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them.
* Morrigan: Then you need look no further than the elves for an example of what occurs when you allow others to hold your leash.

(Alienage gates) "And these elves allow themselves to be herded together in this filth why, exactly?"

(in the Dalish Camp) "At least they have chosen freedom over subjugation. Better hardship and danger than slavery."

------------
Haha, yeah not looking at his coat in a symbolism type-way I would just say it switched to black since it is called "Renegade's Coat" and um, black is like...more badass?

Modifié par Tidra, 04 août 2011 - 07:03 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

All this bird symbolism makes me want to reread Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrel, which is a book about two magicians arguing over the legacy of the rebelious, self declared "Raven King," who brought magic to England, but also war. Was he a traitor who should be forgotten, or is he vitally important to the reclaimation of magic in the world? Not as directly analgous to Dragon Age as that may seem to imply, but just another case of raven or crow as symbolism for magical power.

And now I have Green Finch and Linnet Bird (yet another song about caged birds singing) stuck in my head, thanks to this Anders/Surana songfic that comes to mind every time the bird symbolism theme comes up.

[nitefyre410]

highcastle wrote...

Lady Dino wrote...

highcastle wrote...

Sialater wrote...

DragonRacer wrote...

Hadn't thought about this poem in many years, but all the talk of the Circle as a prison reminded me of Maya Angelou's chilling "I Know Why The Caged Bird Sings"...

<snip poem>

Hmmm..... wonder if thats why they stuck feathers on his pauldrons/epaulets?

Birds have long been used to sympolize freedom. It likely has to do with their ability to fly while humans are stuck on the ground. But a more complete answer would probably be best left to someone who studied anthropology or mythology. I can just tell you that in literature, bird imagery tends to crop up when someone's talking about freedom. Just one prominent example would be the short story "The White Heron" by Sarah Orne Jewett, in which the eponymous bird (in most accepted interpretations) represents a little girl's struggle to be free of her caretaker, her gender role, and/or society as a whole.

So yeah, I think the feathers on Anders' coat are definitely meant to symbolize his struggle for freedom. Notice how the same motif creeps into Fenris' outfit, as well, rather fitting for a character who escaped slavery.

As far as symbolism goes, Anders's first outfit supports this. His second one however...

Can be seen two ways because ravens and crows have different meanings but both have black feathers.

For instance the Greeks and Romans saw crows as bad omens and ravens as good omens. The Native Americans believed ravens to be symbolic of the void and that the raven's iridescent blue and green on black feathers represented the constant change of what emerges from the void (aka people, places, and things getting so bad they lose a sense of self and emerge from the chaos different). Celts straight up saw crows as omens of death. In Europe crows were considered such bad luck that seeing a dead one was a sign of good fortune. 

So while I agree that his bird motif can be connected to his wish for freedom, I also think that there's a lot more meaning and thought being put into it. It's the big reason why I was freaking out when the new costume first showed up. The cool thing is he can be seen as both the raven and the crow simultaniously, or depending on your PoV one or the other.

I ****ing love symbolism.

Crows and ravens get bad raps in lots of mythology because they're carrion eaters. Thus they're associated strongly with death. But birds in general are still tied to freedom. So yes, Anders' second outfit is strongly linked to both death and freedom. Of course, in some respects, he views his death as a type of release (from Justice, responsibility, or whatever else you'd like to believe), so the freedom conotations still apply...they're just a bit darker.

A yes the Raven the bird  that was at one time all white and it took pity on man  when to the gods  and stole fire from them. in the process its onces  beautiful white feathers were covered in black. The cusred the Raven to be hated and black forever.  That  a loose  telling of how  one native american tribe viewed  ravens but i read that so long again i don't even know if its accurate  anymore.  

It would be cool in DA 3 if  Anders had some kind  Phoenix  designed outfit if you  friend or romance him. It would   to show how he progressed from the being at his lowest in DA 2 to  resurrecting himself in  DA 3 

[Sinaxi]

I really hope he is somehow in DA3, I mean for ME they have companions you only get based on whether they're dead or alive. It's not like it'd be impossible for him to return, that's assuming the third game we'd still be playing as Hawke. Otherwise yeah, I hope he has some sort of cameo for players who didn't kill him.

[Searska]

On the topic of ravens and symbolism, I think the Norse viewed ravens on the battlefield as a GOOD omen, something about them favoring the side that would kill the most. Not to mention Odin himself had two for pets, named Thought and Memory.

[nitefyre410]

Searska wrote...

On the topic of ravens and symbolism, I think the Norse viewed ravens on the battlefield as a GOOD omen, something about them favoring the side that would kill the most. Not to mention Odin himself had two for pets, named Thought and Memory.

Hunin and Munin    

[Lady Dino]

nitefyre410 wrote...

highcastle wrote...

Lady Dino wrote...

highcastle wrote...

Sialater wrote...

DragonRacer wrote...

Hadn't thought about this poem in many years, but all the talk of the Circle as a prison reminded me of Maya Angelou's chilling "I Know Why The Caged Bird Sings"...

<snip poem>

Hmmm..... wonder if thats why they stuck feathers on his pauldrons/epaulets?

Birds have long been used to sympolize freedom. It likely has to do with their ability to fly while humans are stuck on the ground. But a more complete answer would probably be best left to someone who studied anthropology or mythology. I can just tell you that in literature, bird imagery tends to crop up when someone's talking about freedom. Just one prominent example would be the short story "The White Heron" by Sarah Orne Jewett, in which the eponymous bird (in most accepted interpretations) represents a little girl's struggle to be free of her caretaker, her gender role, and/or society as a whole.

So yeah, I think the feathers on Anders' coat are definitely meant to symbolize his struggle for freedom. Notice how the same motif creeps into Fenris' outfit, as well, rather fitting for a character who escaped slavery.

As far as symbolism goes, Anders's first outfit supports this. His second one however...

Can be seen two ways because ravens and crows have different meanings but both have black feathers.

For instance the Greeks and Romans saw crows as bad omens and ravens as good omens. The Native Americans believed ravens to be symbolic of the void and that the raven's iridescent blue and green on black feathers represented the constant change of what emerges from the void (aka people, places, and things getting so bad they lose a sense of self and emerge from the chaos different). Celts straight up saw crows as omens of death. In Europe crows were considered such bad luck that seeing a dead one was a sign of good fortune. 

So while I agree that his bird motif can be connected to his wish for freedom, I also think that there's a lot more meaning and thought being put into it. It's the big reason why I was freaking out when the new costume first showed up. The cool thing is he can be seen as both the raven and the crow simultaniously, or depending on your PoV one or the other.

I ****ing love symbolism.

Crows and ravens get bad raps in lots of mythology because they're carrion eaters. Thus they're associated strongly with death. But birds in general are still tied to freedom. So yes, Anders' second outfit is strongly linked to both death and freedom. Of course, in some respects, he views his death as a type of release (from Justice, responsibility, or whatever else you'd like to believe), so the freedom conotations still apply...they're just a bit darker.

A yes the Raven the bird  that was at one time all white and it took pity on man  when to the gods  and stole fire from them. in the process its onces  beautiful white feathers were covered in black. The cusred the Raven to be hated and black forever.  That  a loose  telling of how  one native american tribe viewed  ravens but i read that so long again i don't even know if its accurate  anymore.  

It would be cool in DA 3 if  Anders had some kind  Phoenix  designed outfit if you  friend or romance him. It would   to show how he progressed from the being at his lowest in DA 2 to  resurrecting himself in  DA 3 

Actually the raven is often seen in a much nicer light. It's the crow that gets the worst of the bad rep.

Plus the raven is probably the closest you can get to a phoenix when it comes to Anders. The phoenix isn't just about rebirth, it's also immortality, purification and invincibility, which are things I really don't think Anders would like being labeled as. He's too humble in my oppinion.

Instead you have the raven, who represents a metaphorical black hole that draws in and destroys but also releases and makes new. Anders destroyed the Chantry in an attempt to free/make a new life for Circle mages. I think he would hold on to this concept to show and respect the sacrifices that were made in the name of freedom.

Unless he goes really crazy and becomes a tyrant like the fire lord from Avatar: TLAB. Then it might suit him. 

[highcastle]

Lady Dino wrote...

Actually the raven is often seen in a much nicer light. It's the crow that gets the worst of the bad rep.

Plus the raven is probably the closest you can get to a phoenix when it comes to Anders. The phoenix isn't just about rebirth, it's also immortality, purification and invincibility, which are things I really don't think Anders would like being labeled as. He's too humble in my oppinion.

Instead you have the raven, who represents a metaphorical black hole that draws in and destroys but also releases and makes new. Anders destroyed the Chantry in an attempt to free/make a new life for Circle mages. I think he would hold on to this concept to show and respect the sacrifices that were made in the name of freedom.

Unless he goes really crazy and becomes a tyrant like the fire lord from Avatar: TLAB. Then it might suit him. 

How the raven's perceived varies depending on culture and time period. One has only to look at Poe's "The Raven" for the darker aspects of the bird to make themselves known. (Actually, I'd hypothesize that this poem is what lends many modern people to viewing the raven in a more negative or at least darker light. Let's be honest: Poe tends to have a somewhat morbid or creepy reputation, and this poem is arguably his most famous work.)

And to tie this back to Anders, Merrill explicitly compares his coat to a crow in the middle of molting. So I think it's fair to say that the carrion-eater/darker overtones are relevant.

[SurelyForth]

I knew something was itching me about the crow discussion: crows are also associated with the Irish goddess of war, Morrigan. DA Morrigan also wears crows feathers as part of her costume, and will probably have a huge role to play in the future of Thedas, just as Anders did.

*wants to speculate about Morrigan and Anders for a while, but won't because Gaider has claimed repeatedly that he doesn't choose names like that*

Modifié par SurelyForth, 04 août 2011 - 11:29 .

[Giggles_Manically]

 So at work today I was cleaning up and on the radio this song started playing:
Muse-Uprising 

I stopped and said.... hey its Anders theme song! 
Or am I way off again? 

[YamiSnuffles]

SurelyForth wrote...

I knew something was itching me about the crow discussion: crows are also associated with the Irish goddess of war, Morrigan. DA Morrigan also wears crows feathers as part of her costume, and will probably have a huge role to play in the future of Thedas, just as Anders did.

*wants to speculate about Morrigan and Anders for a while, but won't because Gaider has claimed repeatedly that he doesn't choose names like that*

Oh! Oh! While I was drawing the mage cheerleaders, I too started thinking about Flemeth, Morrigan, and Anders all having crow/raven feathers. It's obviously the feather of choice for when you graduate to badass mage.

[Sinaxi]

LOL! "graduate to badass mage" Dammit, I need some crow feathers. It's the in thing nowadays.

Oh, and I LOVEED Flemeth's remodel. Seriously.

edit-
No, it definitely makes sense. For some reason the 30 seconds to
mars song "Attack" reminds me of Anders. I have no idea why since I'm
not sure all of it would really fit...but it just seems to. lol

Modifié par Tidra, 05 août 2011 - 12:19 .

[Amondra]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

 So at work today I was cleaning up and on the radio this song started playing:
Muse-Uprising 

I stopped and said.... hey its Anders theme song! 
Or am I way off again? 

No I agree that is something I see him singing while he is off killing Templars.

[DragonRacer]

Tidra wrote...

Haha, yeah not looking at his coat in a symbolism type-way I would just say it switched to black since it is called "Renegade's Coat" and um, black is like...more badass?

Oh God, I just got the mental image of the Renegade's Coat being Anders' way of putting on a black leather jacket like "A Rebel Without A Cause" or something. I just died from the hilarity.

Also, I posted once ages back about raven and crow symbolism among Native American lore, and how there were fun, probably unintended similarities with Anders. Such as the crow/raven representing change/metamorphosis... and that ravens were associated with magic and healing (www.symbolic-meanings.com/2007/11/15/symbolic-meaning-of-the-raven-in-native-american-indian-lore/).

Modifié par DragonRacer, 05 août 2011 - 01:32 .

[KawaiiKatie]

DragonRacer wrote...

Such as the crow/raven representing change/metamorphosis... and that ravens were associated with magic and healing.

Well, the crow thing was definitely intended for Morrigan. That allusion is all over her design (she's a shapeshifter, for crying out loud!) and I have no doubt that the black feathers in her design are just another very intentional reference to Morrigan's namesake and her overall theme of change.

Does this overlap with Anders and his "Renegade" design? Absolutely. And I believe that it was all very much intentional between the writers at Bioware and the artists.

[KawaiiKatie]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

I thought Gaider used the name Morrigan just because it sounded cool and not for any symbolism's sake? Though it was quite the luck if it was all coincidental.

I know that he said that about Fenris (he was all, "Um, I just it sounded cool") but I'd be absolutely floored if Morrigan's name was blindly selected. Perhaps her name was selected and then referential elements to crows/change/shapeshifting were added to her character, but either way, I'd be astonished if it was all purely coincidental.


...and this is random, but seriously, how epic would it be for Anders and Morrigan to meet up after DA2?

[SurelyForth]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

I thought Gaider used the name Morrigan just because it sounded cool and not for any symbolism's sake? Though it was quite the luck if it was all coincidental.

I know that he said that about Fenris (he was all, "Um, I just it sounded cool") but I'd be absolutely floored if Morrigan's name was blindly selected. Perhaps her name was selected and then referential elements to crows/change/shapeshifting were added to her character, but either way, I'd be astonished if it was all purely coincidental.


...and this is random, but seriously, how epic would it be for Anders and Morrigan to meet up after DA2?

No, he said that Morrigan was named after a friend's RPG character or something.

I have a hunch he might be trolling us, however. 

[leggywillow]

SurelyForth wrote...
No, he said that Morrigan was named after a friend's RPG character or something.

I have a hunch he might be trolling us, however.

Gaider?  Trolling us?  You must be thinking of a different dev.



He would never.

[SgtElias]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

 So at work today I was cleaning up and on the radio this song started playing:
Muse-Uprising 

I stopped and said.... hey its Anders theme song! 

Haha, I'd always associated that song with Anders very strongly. I think I may even have played it while I was killing templars. Glad I'm not the only one to make that association.

Also, speaking of Muse: if there was ever a band I wished that the Dragon Age franchise found a way to use, it's Muse.

Anyway, sorry for side-tracking the current topic of conversation.

Modifié par SgtElias, 05 août 2011 - 02:25 .

[LT123]

leggywillow wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...
No, he said that Morrigan was named after a friend's RPG character or something.

I have a hunch he might be trolling us, however.

Gaider?  Trolling us?  You must be thinking of a different dev.

*awesome pic snip*

He would never.

Day. Made.

[nitefyre410]

SgtElias wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

 So at work today I was cleaning up and on the radio this song started playing:
Muse-Uprising 

I stopped and said.... hey its Anders theme song! 

Haha, I'd always associated that song with Anders very strongly. I think I may even have played it while I was killing templars. Glad I'm not the only one to make that association.

Also, speaking of Muse: if there was ever a band I wished that the Dragon Age franchise found a way to use, it's Muse.

Anyway, sorry for side-tracking the current topic of conversation.

Muse is great and  I love that song too.

and music in relation to characters is never a bad topic    

I Like this song for Anders but damn if Ubisoft did not beat  Bioware too it. 

www.youtube.com/watch   Unkel - Burn my Shadow

[Heidenreich]

Yanno, Gaider looks a bit like my most favorite uncle ;p

ooOoo doppelganger ;x