57020 réponses à ce sujet

[Kawamura]

Kim Shepard wrote...

There isn't supposed to be a right answer, just different preferences.

I normally think friendship paths are best. Just because, from my point of view, it makes more sense when two characters in a relationship have similar opinions, or else they'd be fighting most of the time. My rivalmance FemHawke has quite a bit in common with Anders, but in the end, their relationship won't work. She can't forgive Anders for blowing up the Chantry. Kaya (friendmance) was never angry with him for blowing up the Chantry. They ran off together to fight in the revolution.

Also, I've always liked Justice. I've never had a favorite character who didn't want revenge. >

That was the difficult part. I felt like I wanted a character that had very similar opinions to Anders, except on the way he was going about doing them. I just didn't want to trigger the really ... upset respones just for that.

It was just difficult. My Hawke could understand why Anders did it. He could, in some way, appreciate his choice. And he could still love him. But he could not feel comfortable with Anders' relationship with Justice. It was just difficult to call that "friendship".

[Kawamura]

panamakira wrote...

I don't think it matters in the end what path you choose for him. I don't think either path benefits him. Justice is like a tumor (like leggywillow said) that is stuck to Anders and we have no idea how to get rid of him since it's defintely changing him or changed him?

I personally don't want him to completely forget who he is and merge with Justice but I think at the end of the game, regardless of what path you chose, by Anders doing what he did, he lost a lot of himself because there really is no going back anymore.

It's also very clear Justice doesn't want Hawke in the picture. My question is who will win in the end? Anders was ready to die and maybe you killed him but if he lives will he reject Hawke because Justice has become more part of him? since it's clear he find Hawke a distraction for Anders. I have a really hard time seeing a good ending for Hawke and Anders with Justice in the picture. Justice has too much influence over Anders already I don't know.

:/

Anders tells me that he is the cause. There's nothing else in him.

I don't quite believe him, mind you, but that's the story he tells people. And his cause is always going to be the most important.

Blasted idealists. Just can't keep 'em, can you? *laughs*

[panamakira]

yukidama wrote...
Hardest, eh?

Game needs moar cat conversations. Every other talk should have been about cats if it were up to me, but I am also a cat supremacist. I imagine that would lead to endless Anders friendship points.... Fenris probably hates cats.

You know it~

I wanted more cat conversations too. I am a cat supremacist in a house full of dog lovers. I am alone. Anders was the only one who understood.

Anyway, I can't see Fenris liking any animals. Maybe a gold fish? An elf and a goldfish. hehe~ I like Fenris.

[leggywillow]

Miri1984 wrote...

@Leggywillow I get your metaphor. It's pretty darn good. But considering as far as I'm concerned the metastasising of this tumour is the blowing up of the Chantry, all that chemo and surgery is for nothing. He's just had a few years of suffering before the big bang. So...

lol, also true.  I definitely prefer the friend-mance for my canon, just because Anders is enough of a woobie without me trying to make him more miserable.

The thing that scares me most is, how many of these ideas are actually Anders and how much is the influence of a spirit who has no idea how the world works?  I'm not saying I'm totally against the Chantry explosion (I'm in the camp of "I understand it but I don't condone it"), but we see during the rival-mance just how little control Anders has.  Justice takes over periodically, causing these blackouts and making it obvious that they aren't "one" like Anders claims.

But friend or rival-mance, Anders always comes to the conclusion that blowing up the Chantry is the best option.  In the rival-mance, he even begins to reconsider doing it and talks about stopping it.  That makes me wonder how much of it was really Anders's idea and how much was simply him being controlled and influenced by Justice.  If that's the case, then maybe the rival-mance, encouraging him to fight it, is a good thing.  It does all come down to the same thing in the end, though, so I guess it's a moot point.

[Kawamura]

leggywillow wrote...

Miri1984 wrote...

@Leggywillow I get your metaphor. It's pretty darn good. But considering as far as I'm concerned the metastasising of this tumour is the blowing up of the Chantry, all that chemo and surgery is for nothing. He's just had a few years of suffering before the big bang. So...

lol, also true.  I definitely prefer the friend-mance for my canon, just because Anders is enough of a woobie without me trying to make him more miserable.

The thing that scares me most is, how many of these ideas are actually Anders and how much is the influence of a spirit who has no idea how the world works?  I'm not saying I'm totally against the Chantry explosion (I'm in the camp of "I understand it but I don't condone it"), but we see during the rival-mance just how little control Anders has.  Justice takes over periodically, causing these blackouts and making it obvious that they aren't "one" like Anders claims.

But friend or rival-mance, Anders always comes to the conclusion that blowing up the Chantry is the best option.  In the rival-mance, he even begins to reconsider doing it and talks about stopping it.  That makes me wonder how much of it was really Anders's idea and how much was simply him being controlled and influenced by Justice.  If that's the case, then maybe the rival-mance, encouraging him to fight it, is a good thing.  It does all come down to the same thing in the end, though, so I guess it's a moot point.

That's also a big problem.

I like encouraging him to fight, I just havent' been able to find an IC way to do it with the choices the game gave me. And I don't hate Justice. I feel sorry for him.

He's playing by rules that, a long time ago, people rewrote. Then threw out and now we all make them up as we go. I think sometimes Anders forgets that, too. Idealism, I think, can make you sometimes forget and Anders is certainly an idealist.

[panamakira]

Kawamura wrote...

panamakira wrote...

I don't think it matters in the end what path you choose for him. I don't think either path benefits him. Justice is like a tumor (like leggywillow said) that is stuck to Anders and we have no idea how to get rid of him since it's defintely changing him or changed him?

I personally don't want him to completely forget who he is and merge with Justice but I think at the end of the game, regardless of what path you chose, by Anders doing what he did, he lost a lot of himself because there really is no going back anymore.

It's also very clear Justice doesn't want Hawke in the picture. My question is who will win in the end? Anders was ready to die and maybe you killed him but if he lives will he reject Hawke because Justice has become more part of him? since it's clear he find Hawke a distraction for Anders. I have a really hard time seeing a good ending for Hawke and Anders with Justice in the picture. Justice has too much influence over Anders already I don't know.

:/

Anders tells me that he is the cause. There's nothing else in him.

I don't quite believe him, mind you, but that's the story he tells people. And his cause is always going to be the most important.

Blasted idealists. Just can't keep 'em, can you? *laughs*

Oh no I agree with you. I'm a pretty selfish girlie-girl so my characters turn out like that too. I don't want him to put his ideals before me. I want to help him in his cause but he's just going about it in a way I can't come to terms with. I think I could deal with everything better if Anders wasn't possessed by anything. I can reason with a man or mage but not with a corrupted spirit "in" a mage. lol So Justice in the picture is a no-no for me.

But really what can we do? <_<

[Kawamura]

panamakira wrote...

Kawamura wrote...

panamakira wrote...

I don't think it matters in the end what path you choose for him. I don't think either path benefits him. Justice is like a tumor (like leggywillow said) that is stuck to Anders and we have no idea how to get rid of him since it's defintely changing him or changed him?

I personally don't want him to completely forget who he is and merge with Justice but I think at the end of the game, regardless of what path you chose, by Anders doing what he did, he lost a lot of himself because there really is no going back anymore.

It's also very clear Justice doesn't want Hawke in the picture. My question is who will win in the end? Anders was ready to die and maybe you killed him but if he lives will he reject Hawke because Justice has become more part of him? since it's clear he find Hawke a distraction for Anders. I have a really hard time seeing a good ending for Hawke and Anders with Justice in the picture. Justice has too much influence over Anders already I don't know.

:/

Anders tells me that he is the cause. There's nothing else in him.

I don't quite believe him, mind you, but that's the story he tells people. And his cause is always going to be the most important.

Blasted idealists. Just can't keep 'em, can you? *laughs*

Oh no I agree with you. I'm a pretty selfish girlie-girl so my characters turn out like that too. I don't want him to put his ideals before me. I want to help him in his cause but he's just going about it in a way I can't come to terms with. I think I could deal with everything better if Anders wasn't possessed by anything. I can reason with a man or mage but not with a corrupted spirit "in" a mage. lol So Justice in the picture is a no-no for me.

But really what can we do? <_<

I imagine if he wasn't putting his ideals first, he'd be putting his freedom first. : D

Anders doesn't seem like he's made to be a good relationship.

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

leggywillow wrote...

Kawamura wrote...

The problem I have with the friendmance is that I don't think it's healthy for Anders to see himself and Justice completely as one. I think that's -- a very sad thing. It traps him, in a way. He is Justice. Entirely. There's no him left, because whoever he was is now something else.

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...
I don't think it has to do with him being more in control. His rage fuels the twisted version of Justice. Friendly Hawke soothes him. Rival Hawke brings Anders' anger more to the surface, thus allowing Justice to more readily take over. He's like the Hulk, fortunately less green, unfortunately more clothing.

Both of these are why I'm having a hard time deciding which path is "better" for Anders.  I can see it both ways.  Yes, on the friend path, Anders doesn't seem to get riled up as often and seems to be calmer and more peacefully merged with Justice.  But is that what's best?  I can also see it like... a tumor or something.  If you just leave it alone it doesn't seem to be hurting anything, while messing with it via chemotherapy and surgery just HURTS and makes you feel even sicker than you were.  But treating it is still usually the best thing to do.  It's obviously not advisable to leave the tumor alone for the sake of short-term peace, because it may kill you in the longr un.  (Not at all a perfect metaphor, but it's the best I can come up with.)

I would say allowing Justice to consume Anders isn't a good thing. Justice is Justice. There is no room for anything else.

Probably the best way to explain it....

[Sarah1281]

Kim Shepard wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

There is a little of that. I know one conversation near the end has Anders saying that he knows you don't agree but he hoped you'd support him anyway and the diplomatic option says that you do support mages but he's going about it the wrong way. I think it's the conversation where, no matter what you do, Justice comes out and accuses you of being lazy.

Isn't there an option that lets Hawke agree with what Anders did? If not, I'm going to be disappointed that so many of my Hawkes will be out of character at such an important part of the story. ):

No. This is only for the rivalmance though so I very much doubt there will be many Hawkes who agree with Anders' viewpoints on mages here. That conversation isn't even talking about anything specific since Anders won't explain why he lied, what the potion is for, or why he needed to sneak into the Chantry. He's just talking about her not agreeing with his methods in general but wants her support anyway and the best you can give is agreeing with his cause but not his methods.

Kawamura wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

One thing that did bug me about Justice's "Go. Anders has no need of you" line (yep, sure he's Anders like he claimed two seconds earlier...) is that it makes it sound like he's discarded you. He needed you to protect him from the templars and to gather the last ingredients and distract the Grand Cleric but after that Justice sees you as unnecessary and wants rid of that headache, Anders' love for you be damned.

Anders is the cause. Love is distracting, it is an energy sink (especially this late in the game) and it does nothing in the strive towards right.

Justice is not a kind thing. Personally, I've always been a bigger fan of empathy and mercy. Justice without that is, well, it's unfortunately justice.

That's what I meant. He doesn't care that Anders loves Hawke because he's too busy focusing on the fact that logically she can't do anything more for him. I guess it's sort of a compliment that Justice seems to think that a Hawke that doesn't agree with Anders could be so important to him and have so much influence that it jeopardizes his plans and he wants her gone. Still, DA2 is doing its damndest to make me forget that I liked Justice in Awakening. He was almsot adorable there but now...

[panamakira]

Anders is a tragedy. I can't see any relationship working with him. Maybe that's why we love him. Because we WANT to make something work for the poor guy.

Ms. Jennifer I hope our tears taste really good in your morning coffee. Mr. Gaider should know about that too.

[Kawamura]

Sarah1281 wrote...
That's what I meant. He doesn't care that Anders loves Hawke because he's too busy focusing on the fact that logically she can't do anything more for him. I guess it's sort of a compliment that Justice seems to think that a Hawke that doesn't agree with Anders could be so important to him and have so much influence that it jeopardizes his plans and he wants her gone. Still, DA2 is doing its damndest to make me forget that I liked Justice in Awakening. He was almsot adorable there but now...

It's hard to see him doing anything else. ;___; Nothing is happy with justice. I don't think I've ever seen someone talking about happy justice. It's always a duty to be born. Even the Arishok talks something about that.

[Miri1984]

I don't blame Justice for this. As a character in DA:Awakenings Justice is fantastic. And Anders admits he corrupted Justice, but the need for action is both of theirs, not just Justice's. I really don't think we can place all the blame on the spirit's shoulders. It's clear from Awakenings that the cause is very close to Anders' heart, even if he hasn't taken action yet. Every time you engage him in conversation (pretty much) it comes round to how mages should be free. I honestly think without Justice he may have gotten to the point of hot-headed revolutionary on his own.

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

panamakira wrote...

Kawamura wrote...

panamakira wrote...

I don't think it matters in the end what path you choose for him. I don't think either path benefits him. Justice is like a tumor (like leggywillow said) that is stuck to Anders and we have no idea how to get rid of him since it's defintely changing him or changed him?

I personally don't want him to completely forget who he is and merge with Justice but I think at the end of the game, regardless of what path you chose, by Anders doing what he did, he lost a lot of himself because there really is no going back anymore.

It's also very clear Justice doesn't want Hawke in the picture. My question is who will win in the end? Anders was ready to die and maybe you killed him but if he lives will he reject Hawke because Justice has become more part of him? since it's clear he find Hawke a distraction for Anders. I have a really hard time seeing a good ending for Hawke and Anders with Justice in the picture. Justice has too much influence over Anders already I don't know.

:/

Anders tells me that he is the cause. There's nothing else in him.

I don't quite believe him, mind you, but that's the story he tells people. And his cause is always going to be the most important.

Blasted idealists. Just can't keep 'em, can you? *laughs*

Oh no I agree with you. I'm a pretty selfish girlie-girl so my characters turn out like that too. I don't want him to put his ideals before me. I want to help him in his cause but he's just going about it in a way I can't come to terms with. I think I could deal with everything better if Anders wasn't possessed by anything. I can reason with a man or mage but not with a corrupted spirit "in" a mage. lol So Justice in the picture is a no-no for me.

But really what can we do? <_<

Between normal dialog and party banter it's pretty clear on that Justice has affected Anders. And Anders' anger affected Justice. By joining Anders Justice became twisted and by becoming twisted he's twisted Anders.

[Sarah1281]

panamakira wrote...

Anders is a tragedy. I can't see any relationship working with him. Maybe that's why we love him. Because we WANT to make something work for the poor guy.

Ms. Jennifer I hope our tears taste really good in your morning coffee. Mr. Gaider should know about that too.

I think that might be part of the appeal of the rivalmance for me. It's a lot more angsty. I want a happy ending but since I can't have one, I might as well add to the angst.

It's just so hard to create a serious character that gets him to 100 rivalry when even things like telling Thrask that you'll help him drag the Starkhaven mages to the Gallows to avoid a massacre ranks a smile and an approval bump (the only one I got that entire game).

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

Miri1984 wrote...

I don't blame Justice for this. As a character in DA:Awakenings Justice is fantastic. And Anders admits he corrupted Justice, but the need for action is both of theirs, not just Justice's. I really don't think we can place all the blame on the spirit's shoulders. It's clear from Awakenings that the cause is very close to Anders' heart, even if he hasn't taken action yet. Every time you engage him in conversation (pretty much) it comes round to how mages should be free. I honestly think without Justice he may have gotten to the point of hot-headed revolutionary on his own.

Maybe, maybe not. He states he thought little of other mages and only about himself until Justice asked him why he isn't bothered by the plights of his fellows.

[Kawamura]

panamakira wrote...

Anders is a tragedy. I can't see any relationship working with him. Maybe that's why we love him. Because we WANT to make something work for the poor guy.

Ms. Jennifer I hope our tears taste really good in your morning coffee. Mr. Gaider should know about that too.

I'm attracted to lost causes, to be sure. I don't know that I want it to work.

It's... it's like the feeling "aware" in Japanese? Or lacrimae rarum in the Latin? I dunno.

[Kim Shepard]

I think of Anders and Justice as split-personalities, with Justice being the crazier and more dominant personality. It can be dangerous, but it doesn't always mean that one has to get rid of the other. Kaya loves both of them as is. If they were separated, I'm not sure what would happen to their relationship. Justice would be back in the Fade, and Anders... would be the same as he was in Awakening. Not that it's such a bad thing. Kaya would like Awakening Anders too, but only as a friend. He wasn't serious enough for her to see him as anything more than that guy she jokes around and escapes from templars with. Now that she already fell in love with him and Justice, it would only confuse her if he became a different person, who she wouldn't have fallen in love with if he was that way when she met him.

I wouldn't ask Anders/Justice to put a romance before and above the "freedom for mages" cause in importance. That's the main reason why I like friendmance better. The cause is important to him. I like that part of his character. Here you go, Anders/Justice - have a FemHawke who believes in the cause just as much as you do.

Sarah1281 wrote...

No. This is only for the rivalmance though so I very much doubt there will be many Hawkes who agree with Anders' viewpoints on mages here. That conversation isn't even talking about anything specific since Anders won't explain why he lied, what the potion is for, or why he needed to sneak into the Chantry. He's just talking about her not agreeing with his methods in general but wants her support anyway and the best you can give is agreeing with his cause but not his methods.

Okay, I understand now. I thought you meant the conversation after the Chantry blows up, for some reason.

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

Brodyaha wrote...

panamakira wrote...

Anders is a tragedy. I can't see any relationship working with him. Maybe that's why we love him. Because we WANT to make something work for the poor guy.

Ms. Jennifer I hope our tears taste really good in your morning coffee. Mr. Gaider should know about that too.

I want Ms. Hepler to write the Kaidan romance.
Without having him blow stuff up or going crazy, preferrably, but still!
She seems to know what makes me go, "<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3!!!!!"

Kaiden? Kaiden who? Once you go Garrus you never go back.

Luckily I have two saves. One where I slept with Garrus and one where I slept with Garrus.

[panamakira]

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

panamakira wrote...

Kawamura wrote...

panamakira wrote...

I don't think it matters in the end what path you choose for him. I don't think either path benefits him. Justice is like a tumor (like leggywillow said) that is stuck to Anders and we have no idea how to get rid of him since it's defintely changing him or changed him?

I personally don't want him to completely forget who he is and merge with Justice but I think at the end of the game, regardless of what path you chose, by Anders doing what he did, he lost a lot of himself because there really is no going back anymore.

It's also very clear Justice doesn't want Hawke in the picture. My question is who will win in the end? Anders was ready to die and maybe you killed him but if he lives will he reject Hawke because Justice has become more part of him? since it's clear he find Hawke a distraction for Anders. I have a really hard time seeing a good ending for Hawke and Anders with Justice in the picture. Justice has too much influence over Anders already I don't know.

:/

Anders tells me that he is the cause. There's nothing else in him.

I don't quite believe him, mind you, but that's the story he tells people. And his cause is always going to be the most important.

Blasted idealists. Just can't keep 'em, can you? *laughs*

Oh no I agree with you. I'm a pretty selfish girlie-girl so my characters turn out like that too. I don't want him to put his ideals before me. I want to help him in his cause but he's just going about it in a way I can't come to terms with. I think I could deal with everything better if Anders wasn't possessed by anything. I can reason with a man or mage but not with a corrupted spirit "in" a mage. lol So Justice in the picture is a no-no for me.

But really what can we do? <_<

Between normal dialog and party banter it's pretty clear on that Justice has affected Anders. And Anders' anger affected Justice. By joining Anders Justice became twisted and by becoming twisted he's twisted Anders.

Yeah they both affected each other pretty bad. I can only imagine what is like to have a nagging something inside you, whether is a voice or a feeling.

I get Anders was restless with the mage situation regardless of Justice but there are times when I wonder just whose ideas are taking more precedence. Both? Justice? Anders? In my rival-mance I almost got Anders to rethink his plans and in that moment Justice pops out and tells me off.

It seems to me when Anders questions himself, Justice convinces him or reassures him.

At this point though they're pretty intertwined so....I don't know if there's anything left for us to do...

[Sarah1281]

If they were separated, I'm not sure what would happen to their relationship. Justice would be back in the Fade, and Anders... would be the same as he was in Awakening.

I doubt that (even should a miracle occur and they could be seperated without the kind of damage Marethari warned about) Anders could ever go back to being exactly like Awakening!Anders. He wouldn't be the same as the conglomerate he is in DA2 but going through something like that would leave its mark.

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

Kim Shepard wrote...

I think of Anders and Justice as split-personalities, with Justice being the crazier and more dominant personality. It can be dangerous, but it doesn't always mean that one has to get rid of the other. Kaya loves both of them as is. If they were separated, I'm not sure what would happen to their relationship. Justice would be back in the Fade, and Anders... would be the same as he was in Awakening. Not that it's such a bad thing. Kaya would like Awakening Anders too, but only as a friend. He wasn't serious enough for her to see him as anything more than that guy she jokes around and escapes from templars with. Now that she already fell in love with him and Justice, it would only confuse her if he became a different person, who she wouldn't have fallen in love with if he was that way when she met him.

I wouldn't ask Anders/Justice to put a romance before and above the "freedom for mages" cause in importance. That's the main reason why I like friendmance better. The cause is important to him. I like that part of his character. Here you go, Anders/Justice - have a FemHawke who believes in the cause just as much as you do.

Sarah1281 wrote...

No. This is only for the rivalmance though so I very much doubt there will be many Hawkes who agree with Anders' viewpoints on mages here. That conversation isn't even talking about anything specific since Anders won't explain why he lied, what the potion is for, or why he needed to sneak into the Chantry. He's just talking about her not agreeing with his methods in general but wants her support anyway and the best you can give is agreeing with his cause but not his methods.

Okay, I understand now. I thought you meant the conversation after the Chantry blows up, for some reason.

I wish he'd go back to his Awakening days. That's what I loved about him in the first place. Would love to knock staffs without a ball gag in his mouth.

[Kawamura]

I ... wait.

Ball gag? He had a ball gag? I'm sorry, I can no longer think intelligent thoughts. Ball gags?

[mellifera]

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

Brodyaha wrote...

panamakira wrote...

Anders is a tragedy. I can't see any relationship working with him. Maybe that's why we love him. Because we WANT to make something work for the poor guy.

Ms. Jennifer I hope our tears taste really good in your morning coffee. Mr. Gaider should know about that too.

I want Ms. Hepler to write the Kaidan romance.
Without having him blow stuff up or going crazy, preferrably, but still!
She seems to know what makes me go, "<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3!!!!!"

Kaiden? Kaiden who? Once you go Garrus you never go back.

Luckily I have two saves. One where I slept with Garrus and one where I slept with Garrus.

ROFL same here. Though my first playthrough ever I went for Kaidan just to see, then dumped him for Garrus. Then I played that character again and stayed single until ME2. My only other character romanced Liara, but we don't talk about that.

Thinking about it, that's exactly what is happening here. Played my Anders romancing guy, then played a Fenris romancer, didn't care a fig for them beyond "Aww."and am back to playing my Anders romancer again. Heh.

Modifié par yukidama, 23 mars 2011 - 05:28 .

[Sarah1281]

Wasn't there a fanart with that earlier? Or something similar?