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[berelinde]

@Leah C.: Welcome to the Anders thread!

Of course, the first thing I'm going to do is disagree with you, but if you've been lurking for any time at all, you probably realize that disagreement here is pretty usual and it is far, far away from dislike.

If only Fenris did show a little sympathy for Anders after Dissent. This is the banter, from the Wiki:

Fenris: I seem to recall you saying something a while ago...
Anders: Shut up.
Fenris: "I can control it." Wasn't that what you said?
Anders: So help me...

That's the only Ella-related banter there is. During Dissent, I'm usually rivaling Fenris, so I don't actually take him along for that quest (he gets friendship points if Ella survives), so if he says something more sensitive during the quest itself, I'm going to miss it.

One of my favorite "Anders moments" in the game is right before he Justices out on Ella, Anders says "No, not here. This is their place." To me, it shows that he knows that here on ground that is probably actually part of the Gallows, Alric has the legal right to disciplie Ella as he sees fit (moral right is entirely debatable). He fights it. Without Hawke's intervention, he will lose, but he still tres.

[L.C.]

That's the only banter, but Fenris pipes in during the post-Dissent cutscene with the lines I paraphrased. I'd be happy to transcribe them when I get home.

[berelinde]

I'll take your word for it, but I won't complain if you do. As I said, I don't bring Fenris along for that stretch because I'm usually trying to max out his rivalry, so I would be curious to see what he says on the subject. The one time I was trying for 100% friendship for both men, I did bring Fenris, but that PT was so buggy, about half the scripted dialogues did not play. Computer problems suck.

[L.C.]

Thanks for the welcome, by the way. I was in a hurry in the middle of leaving work for my previous reply.

And it's totally fine, I don't expect other people to agree with me. That's why we all have our own opinions and interpretations. :3

Anders, Fenris, and Varric were pretty much my staple party for my first playthrough, I never changed them unless I had to, so that's how I happened to see the extra bits. I'm firing it up right now, as I'd prefer to have accurate quotes of what was said than paraphrase, to be honest.

And yes, I love that moment you mentioned, where Anders says, "No, not here." Anders does try, if nothing else. If only effort always counted.

And... I need an avatar, this white box is really creeping me out.

Modifié par Leah.C, 07 août 2011 - 01:22 .

[AndreaDraco]

SurelyForth wrote...


by Payroo

Payroo's works are always great! Awesome picture!

[Heidenreich]

Leah.C wrote...

This is my first-ever post here, so...

Be gentle with me?

I've never really been fond of Anders and Fenris as a couple, along the lines of some of the discussion up above. But there are a few things about their general relationship that I'd kind of noted while playing.

Disclaimer: The following is simply my interpretation. Anyone else is more than welcome to disagree.

After 'Dissent' (I've never killed Ella, so I don't know if it's different depending on that), if you bring Fenris with you to talk to Anders, he'll comment on the situation during the cutscene.

This is paraphrased, since I can't fire up the game right now, but basically...

Anders laments nearly killing Ella.

Fenris snaps in with a comment something like, "Perhaps it's time you realized your limitations."

Anders fires back with something like, "Oh sure, kick me while I'm down."

Fenris says, "It was a suggestion, not a condemnation." He says it quite sympathetically.

I think it's less about hatred for Anders and more about accepting your limitations and not endangering others by insisting you're stronger than you are. This also rings true with his later comment about, "It doesn't take all mages to cause this. Only the weak ones."

And then later in party banter Fenris tries to drive it home again, 'reminding' Anders that "Hey, didn't you say you could control this? And you can't, clearly. You've had your chance. Man up, already." The party banter seems a bit nastier than the cutscene dialogue post-'Dissent', but I think that's because it covers both Anders killing Ella and not killing her. I think Fenris is/would be less forgiving if Ella dies.

Fenris isn't unnecessarily cruel just to be cruel. He's blunt and pragmatic. And he doesn't want them all to wind up fried. Even with the best of intentions and trying with everything he has to do good, Anders is _dangerous_. I think he has understanding for his pains and his struggle, but if you consistently deny that something is wrong -- and we all know things are VERY wrong with Anders -- then you're endangering everyone around you by continuing to deny it.

I think that's also why Fenris is nasty to Merill. Same principle. She refuses to believe she could bring them any harm. And that's exactly what she does.

Fenris isn't exactly all, "Yay, templars!" with the templar pompoms and cheerleader skirt, but I think he accepts them as a necessary evil. Some of them are corrupt, but what's the alternative?

As terrible as it sounds, Fenris really is right about both Anders and Merrill. It's hard to be critical of his constant needling at them when it ultimately turns out that he had good reason for it, even if it was rooted in his own personal bias to start.

From the flip side... I think Anders just eventually gives up on Fenris altogether. He writes him off, and considers him a lost cause. He tried appealing to his desire for freedom as a slave, reasoning with him that mages aren't all bad, and couldn't get him to agree. So he finally just shrugs him off. He tolerates him, because it's necessary. They'll bicker, because that's what they do, and because I think Anders really is the type who always needs the last word on something. I think they 'check in' every once in a while just to make sure they still disagree... But ultimately, he concentrates his efforts on the most important person in their group -- Hawke. Hawke is the one with influence, money, power, position... all things he can really use to advance his cause. I think regardless of romance status he always very deeply cares about Hawke, but it's kind of hard not to fall in love with someone who embodies everything you need and want, someone who has seen you at some of your worst (and _didn't_ run away screaming), and then, on top of all that -- someone who is undeniably charismatic and commands a great presence. There are some people that just stand out, that people just _notice_ when they walk into a room. They can either be commanding or charming, but they're always noticed. Hawke is that.

Anders may be terrible at lying, but he's very good at being manipulative, in my opinion. I think even the most Saintly!Anders still has a bit of ulterior motive bubbling below the surface, no matter what.

For me, Fenris is very much 'head' and Anders is very much 'heart'. And it's very hard to reconcile the two.

In regard to Ella, I thought the scene was sort of half-baked until I thought about it, later. In Act 1, when does Anders really lose it the first time? When he finds out Karl has been Tranquilized, and the templars close in on him, presumably to do the same to him.

In Act 2, he BSODs when Alrik advances on Ella, again with the impending threat of Tranquility. As much as he hates Templars, he does keep it in check around them for most of his average daily life. When he short-circuits the worst seems to be when Tranquility is involved.

When Justice/Vengeance is in full control, it's pure frenzy. He's said before that Justice can't really comprehend the intricacies of strategy or logic when it comes to his all-out rages. It's very much, "You're with me or against me, there is no in-between." If Ella is recoiling from him, she must be an enemy, and therefore must be eliminated.

No, it's not logical, but again -- Justice/Vengeance has little capacity for logic. It's like a giant nuclear bomb exploding, compared to a homing missile. When Anders loses it, there's probably going to be some collateral damage. It wasn't _as_bad the first time it happened with Karl in the Chantry, but by the time 'Dissent' rolls around, he's had three more years of fighting a losing battle under his belt, and it's clear that his grip is slipping as time goes by. If he's close enough to Hawke, he can get a grip on himself and avoid killing Ella, but not by much. By Act 3, he's barely hanging on.

I personally love Anders most because there's a pretty wide scale of interpretation with his character, and it can vary greatly depending on the player and how Hawke is played. Anders can be anything from a truly altruistic and good-hearted person who truly wants to see all mages be free, or a lying, manipulative prig. If he's friendmanced, he can struggle with his humanity until his cause ultimately consumes him and he's ready to accept and give his life for it... if he's rivalmanced he basically just has all his humanity burned out of him, coming to believe in the end that he really is a monster.

The other characters do learn, grow, and change based on Hawke's actions, but I think Anders is the most drastic, with the widest range -- which is ironic considering the one thing you can't influence him against, at the end. But, by then he's tired of being ignored and tired of people ignoring the issue. Everyone is getting crazier and nobody will do anything about it. He seems to believe the Maker exists, but that he's given up on people altogether, perhaps just the way he gave up on Spirits when he decided to create Humans.

What better way to say, "Listen to me!" than to blow up the Chantry? What better way to send a message to all the devout religious people that their God doesn't care about them? After all, if he did, why would he let that happen? It's a wake-up call he's willing to give up everything for. He risks turning everyone against mages permanently, but what's the alternative? It feels like everyone is already against them anyway. It's been 7 years, and they're losing ground. This way, they get to go down fighting. And it might work the opposite way, too. Anyone doubting their faith might be persuaded to switch sides if they feel abandoned by their God. And killing the highest-ranking religious icon around might make that happen. Assassinations are powerful political tools.

And, somewhat brilliantly -- it immediately forces the hand of every mage in Kirkwall (possibly every mage across Thedas, once word gets out) to either fight back or lay down and die.

On the fence? Not anymore. Pick a side.

But Anders is a walking melodrama, and that's kind of why I love him.

****, I think I love you <3

You're like.. a new-voiced version of CGG and Surely and Yami all rolled into a -there's no picture for an avatar- bubble. Can I just give you my brain so you don't have to go rooting around in it when you write my thoughts out exactly the way I wish I could? Cause.. yanno.. that's exactly how I feel about both of those characters.


Welcome to the Anders thread. We love long winded. We love great minds. We love a little crazy.  (Or maybe a whole lot) I think you'll like it here

Modifié par Heidenreich, 07 août 2011 - 12:22 .

[L.C.]

berelinde wrote...

I'll take your word for it, but I won't complain if you do. As I said, I don't bring Fenris along for that stretch because I'm usually trying to max out his rivalry, so I would be curious to see what he says on the subject. The one time I was trying for 100% friendship for both men, I did bring Fenris, but that PT was so buggy, about half the scripted dialogues did not play. Computer problems suck.

After 'Dissent', when you go to talk to Anders again, there's a 'Star' option for showing him Alrik's papers, and then a top and bottom option on the right side of the wheel.

Bottom option: What happened in there?

Hawke: You almost killed that girl!
Anders: Justice has been warped by my rage. I cannot contain him any longer.
Fenris: Maybe it's time to realize your limitations.
Anders: Yes, fine. Kick me while I'm down. Clearly you're right about everything.
Fenris: It was a suggestion, not a condemnation.
Anders: I will not put myself in that position again.

The comments from Fenris are the same regardless of whether or not Anders killed Ella. There's just a couple of extra lines from Anders after Hawke's first line if he killed her and no 'almost' from Hawke.

[L.C.]

Heidenreich wrote...

****, I think I love you <3

You're like.. a new-voiced version of CGG and Surely and Yami all rolled into a -there's no picture for an avatar- bubble. Can I just give you my brain so you don't have to go rooting around in it when you write my thoughts out exactly the way I wish I could? Cause.. yanno.. that's exactly how I feel about both of those characters.


Welcome to the Anders thread. We love long winded. We love great minds. We love a little crazy.  (Or maybe a whole lot) I think you'll like it here

Oh, my. I'm flattered? Really.

Hi!

I didn't really mean for that big wall of text to appear. I just had a few minutes, and um... well. You can see what happened. I was really glad it was the LAST post on the previous page, because I would have been so terribly embarrassed for it to be at the top of this one. Nobody needs to scroll through all that on a new page!

I try to reign it in a tad in public and save the verbosity for fic.

Crazy is good. Crazy, I can do.

Modifié par Leah.C, 07 août 2011 - 12:46 .

[YamiSnuffles]

I wrote a big long characterization rant. Then realized I didn't care! 

I also didn't want to hear more about Fenders, even if it was coming out of my own mouth. So have some adorable Anders art instead.


by mila-valentine

[Heidenreich]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

I wrote a big long characterization rant. Then realized I didn't care! 

I also didn't want to hear more about Fenders, even if it was coming out of my own mouth. So have some adorable Anders art instead.


by mila-valentine

Is that Wil? Cause it sure looks like her.  Might just be my brain inserting wil into any picture of a short-haired Hawke being close to Anders

[YamiSnuffles]

Heidenreich wrote...

Is that Wil? Cause it sure looks like her.  Might just be my brain inserting wil into any picture of a short-haired Hawke being close to Anders

Haha, I do the same thing. But, no, it's just listed as Marian Hawke. It is, I believe, just her version of a warrior f!Hawke, who has the generic female design (minus the nutella).

[Sinaxi]

Argh. Okay. Whew. So many walls of text. SOOO MANY. WE MUST STOP.

Anyways, I wasn't like bringing up that example of Star Wars canon to say that like fanfiction is by any means canon, since it's not. It's not officially licensed, I was just pointing out that in theory if none of those works had been officially licensed people would go around saying they weren't canon. My point in that was that I prefer fanfictions that *I* can personally believe in the realm of the characters, and I know that not everyone will believe the same things - otherwise there would be no Fenders fans at all. So I'm not trying to tell anyone that they are wrong necessarily, but it seems that the majority of us do agree that Fenders is very far into the realm of...not..possible. Like the Bioware writers would go "UH...WTF?" That was just my point. That if you are writing something, make it believable but also put your own creativity into it but don't change the fundamental basics of *THEIR* world, and their characters otherwise it becomes like something..else entirely.

Um. The ending of that sentence made me think of Liam Neeson's voice. Dammit.

If you make yourself more than just a man, if you devote yourself to an ideal, you become something else entirely.

AHHHHHHHH. I don't where my mind is going but I will not in any way try to turn that quote into something Anders related. I won't. I'm stopping. *sigh* Liam Neeson.

Ohh! Okay, Leah said some great things that I overall agree with...but I just wanted to say this:

I feel like a few Fenris fans (cough Heidenreich ) have gotten the impression that I just hate Fenris. I don't. I promise. I did romance him in my first playthrough after all. Though I'm really not sure who I would have romanced first if I hadn't read stuff beforehand where people were all like "Fenris is the greatest LI in the history of existence" something something, can't remember. Probably would have romanced Isabela or Anders in the first place. But I came to realize I am a devout Anders fangirl...and in my last playthrough I kept wanting to slap Fenris upside the head. Of course I still drug him around with me everywhere, so I don't know what that says about me haha. I probably just need to do another playthrough, one where I am not like "Fenris. STOP TALKING." But my ideals just clash with his so much that it was hard to listen to a second-go around.

But my initial party was always Anders, Isabela, and Fenris. And I sort of can't let go of that party. Isabela is my second preferred romance though, she is so dear to my heart. Merrill is too sweet for me, which is why I can't dream of rivaling her because I feel like I would be stomping on her tiny little heart and then I would feel like the biggest jerk ever. Oh, and Isabela would probably cut off my nonexistent balls. I have no idea where I am taking this so I am going to stop talking. Right. Now.

P.S. I love you guys and the ridiculous walls of text debates we get into.

Edit - Oh okay someone mentioned Garrus...think it was CGG...I just got the mass effect games and like I spoiler read pretty much everything because I suck and I was looking at the LI's. Kaidan just...something about him, so annoying to me. So I was like yeah, I'll just do Liara. Then I found out you can romance Garrus in the second and I was like "WAT?!" I wonder how it will effect the third Mass Effect if you like...romance 1 and then cheat on them with someone else. Lol, "effect the third Mass Effect"...hah. Anyways. Liara seems like a pretty great LI overall though, was looking at some stuff from Lair of Shadow Broker DLC...ohhh, and DID ANYONE ELSE think it is RIDICULOUS how much *screen time* Miranda and male Shephard's sex scene got? Like, wtf? None of the other scenes are even close to being that graphic, I can't think of a better word for it. Not saying it was like porn or something but yeah, wtf? It just seemed like it was way different compared to like, ME1 scenes and DA:O, DA2 scenes. Also, what is the deal with her character anyways? Does anyone else think she is not modeled attractively AT ALL?

Before I went off on that tangent - Who are you guys favorite LI's? Just curious. 

Modifié par Tidra, 07 août 2011 - 04:26 .

[SurelyForth]

 

CGG wrote...
Anders is actually a fascinating example of this (see, I'm still on topic.) A decent amount of people feel like his canon plot transformation from Awakening to DA2 was not "sold," they do not "buy" it. Everybody here does, of course, but it didn't work for some people. They fell on the side of the plausibility bubble that prefers consistency and predictability. If you had me play Awakening and said "Ok, predict what will happen to Anders" I would not have said "He merges with Justice and becomes a crazy magical hobo who lives in the sewers and gets a huge crush on a random stranger at one point while he slowly descends into madness until he blows up a chantry." I'm pretty sure nobody actually predicted that, but now that we know what happens, when we look back we can see why or how it makes sense. Some people can't, though... they look at the Awakening stuff and think "Ok, yeah there were some hints to the merger, but other aspects of this don't make sense blah blah blah that argument again blah blah ruined." 
If you asked someone to write what was most likely to happen to Anders after Awakening, nobody but the DA team would have written DA2 Anders. It doesn't logically follow. It's a plot twist. If you asked someone to write what was most likely to happen between Anders and Fenris, they would not write Fenders. Of course they wouldn't! That would be insane.

I'm going to discuss this.

Yeah, it's not something I would have ever predicted (mostly because I only ever thought about what Anders would be like as a Warden). But Awakening, if you go back and look at it, supports and heavily hints at what Anders will do and what Anders will become. If you peel away the flirting and the goofier jokes you're left with the conversations, you get that anger that would warp Justice, you get Anders maybe killing templars or at least not caring that they died in front of him when he's otherwise compassionate. You get the Magus War boots. If you choose to ignore all of those things and continue to insiste that DA2 Anders is not the same Anders...

But I don't think that's why most people don't get the transition to DA2. I think where the writers lose people is in the regime change in the Wardens (which compounds the timeline wonkiness and general story compression that happens with him). When they leave Anders in Awakening, he's their Warden and he has his cat and what he considers freedom. Without actually seeing the new WC coming in and taking Pounce and putting him under templar supervision, it becomes difficult to understand how the merger/activism went from theoretical to "I'm going to do this and BE the cause of mages." 

But that's trying to figure out people. I'm more interested in figuring out characters, and I don't think that Anders becoming what he becomes is insane based on Awakening because there are blatant hints and blatant foreshadowing and consistency between the two incarnations. 

@pagerunner I see what you're saying. However, I think there's a decent justification for the static costumes: beyond being visual shorthand for each character, it also allows the game to use as simple change as characterization. Fenris and Isabela get theirs after what can possibly be a one night stand. Merrill only gets hers if she and Hawke remain together. Anders only gets his after Justice, but any Hawke can unlock it. Aveline earns hers independent of Hawke. Varric's does not change. I think that approach is very purposeful, and that we can extrapolate certain things from not only what they wear but how they go from their basic outfits to their new outfits. If they were constantly changing outfts, it wouldn't be as much of an "Oh, ****," moment when Anders shows up in his Black Robes of Foreshadowing. 

Modifié par SurelyForth, 07 août 2011 - 04:30 .

[YamiSnuffles]

Do you only get the black coat if Hawke helps Anders with Justice? I thought that was the case, but I looked at the wiki and it seemed to imply that was a glitch and that he was supposed to change outfits no matter what... or something.

I had a theory on the outfit change if he does indeed only get it if Hawke helps. If he just gets it no matter what then my theory kind of goes out the window, haha.

[Sinaxi]

Pretty sure he only gets it if you help him do the quest..I've seen some videos where he doesn't have it during Last Straw.

"You don't always wear robes, do you?"
"Not when I'm naked I don't ;D"

"Er. I didn't do it. Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm not broken up about them dying, to be perfectly honest. Biff there made the funniest gurgle when he went down." < Templar Love.

[SurelyForth]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Do you only get the black coat if Hawke helps Anders with Justice? I thought that was the case, but I looked at the wiki and it seemed to imply that was a glitch and that he was supposed to change outfits no matter what... or something.

I had a theory on the outfit change if he does indeed only get it if Hawke helps. If he just gets it no matter what then my theory kind of goes out the window, haha.

I'm pretty sure that's the only way he can get it. People might think it's a glitch because he's the only LI who doesn't get the upgrade after sex or moving in. If it is a glitch, ostensibly it should be fixable the same way Isabela's glitchy upgrade can be fixed, but I've never had him switch to his black outfit randomly after respeccing him. 

And I have a theory, too! And (this should surpise nobody) it's Anders Always Loved Hawke and, beyond sex or a verbal commitment, showing that level of support and trust in him and his cause is the most important thing Hawke can do for him. 

Or something like that. I'm having trouble expressing myself this morning afternoon.

[Giggles_Manically]

There is another Ella related dialouge actually.
With Aveline:

Anders: Can I ask you something, Aveline?
Aveline: I cannot look the other way when mages break the law-
Anders: That's not what I was going to ask.
Anders: There's a girl. A mage apprentice. She...was murdered in the Gallows recently. Have you heard anything of it?
Aveline: You mean the girl you killed.
Anders: Yes. I'd like to...attend the furneral. Do something.
Aveline: The official templar report says she was killed by a demon of unknown origin.
Aveline: Let her family mourn in peace.

[L.C.]

... I think I'm getting fond of this creepy blank avatar. I kind of don't want to change it, now.

Tidra wrote...

Before I went off on that tangent - Who are you guys favorite LI's? Just curious. 

Short answer: Anders.

Long answer: I've started romances with the other three, and I always ultimately end up dumping them and running back to Anders at the last minute. It's pathetic, really.

Male Hawke, female Hawke, Warrior, Rogue, Mage, Friendy romance, Rival romance, diplomatic, jovial, or direct. Regardless of who I side with or whether or not Anders survives at the end. Doesn't matter.

His romance scene? Completely ridiculous, stuffed with enough ham for a sandwich*. But I still do it every. Damn. Time.

It's a horrible pathological reaction I can't seem to shake. Apparently I just _really_ like having my heart broken.

*Sandwich joke completely unintentional. I swear.

Modifié par Leah.C, 07 août 2011 - 05:11 .

[Giggles_Manically]

I dont have a fave per say.
Since I have yet to do all of them.

[SurelyForth]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

There is another Ella related dialouge actually.
With Aveline:

Anders: Can I ask you something, Aveline?
Aveline: I cannot look the other way when mages break the law-
Anders: That's not what I was going to ask.
Anders: There's a girl. A mage apprentice. She...was murdered in the Gallows recently. Have you heard anything of it?
Aveline: You mean the girl you killed.
Anders: Yes. I'd like to...attend the furneral. Do something.
Aveline: The official templar report says she was killed by a demon of unknown origin.
Aveline: Let her family mourn in peace.

As for favorite LI? Uhhhh....>.>

For DA2, Anders. For all of DA? Anders. For all of video gamedom up to and excluding ME? Anders.

But Garrus wins for me. Still. But not because I like him more as a character, which I don't (Anders pretty much owns my brain and my creativity). I just love the Fem!Shep/Garrus dynamic more than I love any other ship ever.

[Sinaxi]

I've always thought Anders loved Hawke no matter what. It seems pretty clear from the way the writers wrote him, they even have him hit on Hawke first if you choose the diplomatic responses first without ever flirting beforehand. I always kind of prefer it that way. Since I don't think I would randomly be all "OH! That explains that whole sexy tortured look." After he just like killed his friend...lol and what he says is super cute hehehe.

I do think I read something though where Gaider or another writer was like "yeah we probably shouldn't have let Anders make the first move" or something or another...but idk what he really meant by that. I wonder if they regret writing Anders in that way, like how he basically grows to love Hawke no matter what. It's just apart of his character though, I can't really imagine it any other way now.

Ohhh and no, I meant favorite LI's for Mass Effect hahaha. Since I haven't like fully played those games and was curious. I like Liara and Garrus probably the most though. I just wonder what will happen in ME3 if I sex Liara and then totally cheat on her with Garrus in ME2 without getting Shadow Broker DLC. Garrus is pretty funny already in ME1, just like...idk. His voice. It's cute. Liara is sweet though.

I also can't decide who I will end up killing off, Kaidan or Ashley. >.>

Modifié par Tidra, 07 août 2011 - 05:20 .

[leggywillow]

Tidra wrote...

Before I went off on that tangent - Who are you guys favorite LI's? Just curious.

In Dragon Age?  Definitely Anders.  The only other character I can even deal with romancing is Isabela.  Alistair was my favorite in Origins, but Anders easily tops him.

My runner-up favorite romance ever after Anders is Atton Rand, even if it was only half a romance sublot.  >_>

[Giggles_Manically]

Coming from someone who did his full rivalry path without a romance.... I dont think he loves that Hawke.

He comes to respect that Hawke's view in the end but.... there is no love there.
He just treats that Hawke like he does Fenris and Merrill.... and Aveline.

[SurelyForth]

Tidra wrote...

I do think I read something though where Gaider or another writer was like "yeah we probably shouldn't have let Anders make the first move" or something or another...but idk what he really meant by that. I wonder if they regret writing Anders in that way, like how he basically grows to love Hawke no matter what. It's just apart of his character though, I can't really imagine it any other way now.

I think Gaider just wanted to avoid the fallout for the fact that Anders will give rivalry if rejected. I think the other signs that Anders' loves Hawke (ie his banters with a romanced Merrill and the way he confronts Hawke's LI at the beginning of Justice) are the bigger indicators that he has it bad for Hawke no matter what.