57019 réponses à ce sujet

[syllogi]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Coming from someone who did his full rivalry path without a romance.... I dont think he loves that Hawke.

He comes to respect that Hawke's view in the end but.... there is no love there.
He just treats that Hawke like he does Fenris and Merrill.... and Aveline.

I would say he's attracted to Hawke in the beginning, as usual, but by the second act, if you're rivaling him with no flirting, he's over Hawke, and just wants to prove himself at that point.

[Giggles_Manically]

Yes exactly.

I think their is an INITIAL attraction.
But rivaling kind of squashes it.

Bad.

[Sinaxi]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Coming from someone who did his full rivalry path without a romance.... I dont think he loves that Hawke.

He comes to respect that Hawke's view in the end but.... there is no love there.
He just treats that Hawke like he does Fenris and Merrill.... and Aveline.

Uh, yeah. I don't think he loves them either on rivalry path, no matter if there's a romance or not. But I've been over how much I hate the rivalry path and how absolutely terrible it is to him as a person.

On friendship path with no romance he still makes several jealous-sounding comments, but even without a romance I think a part of him loves Hawke. It doesn't have to be like "romantic" love, but respect and admiration. But even then, when you do romance him, he admits that he has liked you for the past 3 years. So I believe it was just written to be that way. I can easily see him loving a friendship Hawke with no romance just because Hawke has been so supportive with him and a true friend. He is a completely different person on friendship path, and again..yeah..there's a post somewhere a few pages back where I went on about how much I literally hate rivalry path with him and think it is a horrible horrible thing.

[Giggles_Manically]

He ends up pretty screwed up on either path.

Either merged into a hybrid being.
Or mentally beaten into a pulp.

[L.C.]

@Tidra

Sorry, I thought by 'tangent' you meant the whole ME2 bit entirely :3 I'll go have a time-out under my newbie rock for a bit.


Sadly, I've not gotten around to ME2, yet. I keep waffling back and forth over whether or not to pick up ME1 before I start it, and I haven't been able to put down DA2 long enough to decide.

In the interests of sparing another massive wall-o-text about the whole 'Anders hitting on you first'/etc. thing... I always feel like he's seriously in rebound mode at the time. I mean, he just killed probably the last remaining person he cared about, after seeing the worst possible thing imaginable happen to him (Tranquility). And he just revealed his big Justice 'secret' to someone for the first time. That's an epic truckload of vulnerability laid down all at once. He needs to deflect, somehow. So he reverts back a bit to lizard-brain shameless-flirt Anders because that's what he knows how to do.

Of course, then things get more complicated.

Modifié par Leah.C, 07 août 2011 - 06:38 .

[Sinaxi]

I don't think Anders is screwed up on friendship path, but that has a lot to do with personal opinions on Mages vs Templars. Anyone can say Anders is "screwed up" simply because he merged with Justice in the first place, but I have learned to look past that. It's literally a part of who he is now so he was already a "hybrid being" as you so put it - and he's that way at the beginning of the game. No matter what you do with his path he will still be a "hybrid being". That has changed a lot about him as a person and his temperament but I view that as being who he is now so I hesitate to just write him off as being 'screwed up'. Instead I prefer to help him with all of that and be supportive.

@Leah, haha I probably just wasn't clear enough. The whole post was like me rambling about several different things.

Modifié par Tidra, 07 août 2011 - 05:37 .

[SurelyForth]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Yes exactly.

I think their is an INITIAL attraction.
But rivaling kind of squashes it.

Bad.

Except he's still jealous of Hawke's LI. He still confronts them and posits himself as a viable alternative. 

[personal opinion]I mean...he allows himself to be mentally broken by the rivalry and he can, in the end, hand control over to Hawke and allows Hawke to press him into doing the one thing that is anathema to who he is as a person and what he sacrificed himself to achieve. I don't see that as the action of someone who merely respects Hawke.[/personal opinion]

[Sinaxi]

SurelyForth wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Yes exactly.

I think their is an INITIAL attraction.
But rivaling kind of squashes it.

Bad.

Except he's still jealous of Hawke's LI. He still confronts them and posits himself as a viable alternative. 

[personal opinion]I mean...he allows himself to be mentally broken by the rivalry and he can, in the end, hand control over to Hawke and allows Hawke to press him into doing the one thing that is anathema to who he is as a person and what he sacrificed himself to achieve. I don't see that as the action of someone who merely respects Hawke.[/personal opinion]

In a way though, I just see that as an action of a completely broken man. And Hawke is the one that really broke him. He probably did love them, a lot, which is why he didn't understand why he would still stay with them in a romance path. I don't think he "loves" Hawke on rivalry, but I think he thinks he does. He wishes so badly that Hawke could have been that person for him, that supportive caring individual.

On rivalry, Hawke isn't. Hawke is a total jackass. They break him and beat him down mentally emotionally..everything. By the end of the game he has nothing left but this person that he's been "friends" with the whole game and has listened to them argue with him constantly and he has tried so hard to convince them that he has finally given up. I just don't really know how to describe it. In a way I think you are also right, it is just too sad to me though that he just eventually lets Hawke control his life which is why I just feel like he is so completely and utterly broken and that probably does have a lot to do with the fact that a part of him always loved Hawke and worse, on rivalry, he couldn't understand that love and he wanted it to be real so badly but it wasn't.

I would rather Anders turn around and fight me, every single time. So in conclusion, yeah, I can get behind the fact that Anders did love Hawke on either path. But on rivalry it is much more of a desperation, wanting something to be real but I don't think it is real. But that's because I think rivalry Hawke is a jackass. Through and through. >.<

Modifié par Tidra, 07 août 2011 - 05:46 .

[Sinaxi]

Leah.C wrote...
In the interests of sparing another massive wall-o-text about the whole 'Anders hitting on you first'/etc. thing... I always feel like he's seriously in rebound mode at the time. I mean, he just killed probably the last remaining person he cared about, after seeing the worst possible thing imaginable happen to him (Tranquility). And he just revealed his big Justice 'secret' to someone for the first time. That's an epic truckload of vulnerability laid down all at once. He needs to deflect, somehow. So he reverts back a bit to lizard-brain shameless-flirt Anders because that's what he knows how to do.

Of course, then things get more complicated.

I really like your point there, I hadn't thought about it in that way. Not really the rebound part necessarily, but you saying that he sort of turns back into Awakening Anders. I can totally see that. He sees this pretty person who is being super kind to him about Justice and he is just overwhelmed about what just happened to him, and he just kind of ends up speaking his mind. And it comes so naturally to him, like everything he says in that part is just so.."oh yes, I know how to flirt" "You must have some made some deals with a demon yourself ;D" and then instantly when Hawke responds he is all ...****. Um, no! And realizes he shouldn't have said anything, since like he says...he's not the same person anymore. I guess I always understood what he meant, but I never really thought of it in terms of "Oh, he's flirting with me because he totally just pulled an Awakening Anders" haha. But he sort of did.

[esper]

Rival Anders is just... horrible. I did it once and like the templar ending it is something I am never doing again. (And I couldn't force Anders to side with the templars, I just couldn't). The only good thing I personally liked about rival Anders is that one line in the justice quest which paraphrased is something like 'I it good years of ranting to you haven't gone to waste.' The rest was just... :-(
But I do think that Anders as Tidra says at least always thinks he loves Hawke. You don't let a person you just respect break you down in that manner a rival Anders let Hawke break down his spirit (no pun intended).

[Sinaxi]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Only with a female Hawke though. The dynamic he has with a male Hawke is entirely different.

Yeah...it has always sort of bothered me how the writers specifically don't have him mention Karl being a lover the entire game as a female Hawke. As if they want to give off the impression he's straight or something. I said something about this too a few pages back. Like, I can see Anders being bi he is pretty sexually open in Awakening - but you also don't have any "flirting" kind of dialogue with him at all as a male I thought? 

"All I want is a pretty girl, a decent meal, and the right to shoot lightning at fools."

Awakening made it seem like he leaned more towards females. But eh. They decided to make all the characters bi instead lol.

But, yes, I was talking about a female Hawke. I never play male. So on that dynamic I do think he reverted back to typical "ooh pretty, AND sweet girl = flirt."

[YamiSnuffles]

SurelyForth wrote...

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Do you only get the black coat if Hawke helps Anders with Justice? I thought that was the case, but I looked at the wiki and it seemed to imply that was a glitch and that he was supposed to change outfits no matter what... or something.

I had a theory on the outfit change if he does indeed only get it if Hawke helps. If he just gets it no matter what then my theory kind of goes out the window, haha.

I'm pretty sure that's the only way he can get it. People might think it's a glitch because he's the only LI who doesn't get the upgrade after sex or moving in. If it is a glitch, ostensibly it should be fixable the same way Isabela's glitchy upgrade can be fixed, but I've never had him switch to his black outfit randomly after respeccing him. 

And I have a theory, too! And (this should surpise nobody) it's Anders Always Loved Hawke and, beyond sex or a verbal commitment, showing that level of support and trust in him and his cause is the most important thing Hawke can do for him. 

Or something like that. I'm having trouble expressing myself this morning afternoon.

Okay, my theory is sort of like your theory (big surprise!) but let's see if I can explain it well enough.

For the other LI's sleeping with them and generally confirming you have feelings for them is sort of the culmination of your relationship with them. However, you need to do more than that to consummate your relationship with him. As he says many times, he is the cause of the mages. You have to accept that part of him in some way in order to really confirm your relationship with him.

If you don't ask any questions when going into the Justice quest, it shows that Hawke trusts him implicitely and accept that whatever he is trying to do, it's for the best. On the other hand, if you do question him but help him anyway, you show that even though it seems a bit shady, you trust him enough or care for his cause enough to go through with it. This works with a friend (instead of lover) Hawke also. If you question him when not in a relationship with him, he'll still say Hawke never cared for him at all if s/he doesn't help.

So, I guess what I'm trying to say, is helping him with Justice is more of a sign of what kind of relationship Hawke have with Anders than any physical expression can ever be. If Hawke really hates/distrusts Anders s/he isn't going to bother helping him with such a suspect mission.

I don't know if that actually made any sense. I had a whole long thing about it written out a few days back, but it was going off on a wild tangent from something else I was saying so I deleted it.

[berelinde]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Only with a female Hawke though. The dynamic he has with a male Hawke is entirely different.

Kind of different, but not completely. He still says "Be careful what you offer" in the most flirtatious manner imginable, just like he does with F!Hawke.

His Awakening Anders moment for the male PC occurs if Hawke flirts with him in the second conversation and follows it up with "I just never consdidered..." It is deliciosly cringe-worthy. Watch it on YouTube, if you haven't seen it in game yourself.

[Evilnor]

Tidra wrote...

"All I want is a pretty girl, a decent meal, and the right to shoot lightning at fools."

Awakening made it seem like he leaned more towards females. But eh. They decided to make all the characters bi instead lol.

But, yes, I was talking about a female Hawke. I never play male. So on that dynamic I do think he reverted back to typical "ooh pretty, AND sweet girl = flirt."

I figure since the Circle (in Ferelden, anyway) practically encourages same-sex coupling because that doesn't produce children, Anders could lean towards preferring women just because it pisses the templars off

I can just imagine Anders being hauled back to the Circle by a bunch of male templars and annoying the **** out of them by talking about all the sex with women he had!  Hehe, jealous templars . . .

[L.C.]

Tidra wrote...

Uh, yeah. I don't think he loves them either on rivalry path, no matter if there's a romance or not. But I've been over how much I hate the rivalry path and how absolutely terrible it is to him as a person.

On friendship path with no romance he still makes several jealous-sounding comments, but even without a romance I think a part of him loves Hawke. It doesn't have to be like "romantic" love, but respect and admiration. But even then, when you do romance him, he admits that he has liked you for the past 3 years. So I believe it was just written to be that way. I can easily see him loving a friendship Hawke with no romance just because Hawke has been so supportive with him and a true friend. He is a completely different person on friendship path, and
again..yeah..there's a post somewhere a few pages back where I went on about how much I literally hate rivalry path with him and think it is a horrible horrible thing.

He's definitely a very different person between the friendship and rivalry paths...

There are lots of different kinds of love. Like you said, not all of it is 'romantic' love. And there is always the fact that you can be massively and powerfully attracted to or drawn to someone without being in love with them. Oh, emotion. Ever the bane of logic.

The rivalry path is just so awful and destructive and tragic for Anders, though. I haven't been able to follow through with it more than once so far. With a friendship, he really fights to hold on to his humanity and he at least gets a tiny bit of happiness to show for it. With a rivalry, he winds up with so much self-loathing that his humanity is just sucked right out of him and he becomes a shell.

SurelyForth wrote...

Except he's still jealous of Hawke's LI. He still confronts them and posits himself as a viable alternative. 

[personalopinion]I mean...he allows himself to be mentally broken by the rivalry and he can, in the end, hand control over to Hawke and allows Hawke to press him into doing the one thing that is anathema to who he is as a
person and what he sacrificed himself to achieve. I don't see that as the action of someone who merely respects Hawke.[/personal opinion]

Again, this is totally just my personal opinion and I enjoy hearing when people think differently <3 :

The whole rivalry path comes off, to me, like a huge power struggle.

Initial attraction, and then a lot of pushing and pulling idealism-wise. I mean, Anders does get passionately argumentative with pretty much anyone who doesn't agree with him but doesn't flirt all over everybody else --
clearly Hawke is special. With Hawke being... well, _Hawke_ , everything just goes that much further.

If you mix in an initial spark of attraction with other strong feelings, (anger, frustration, sexual tension, jealousy, determination) it's not that hard to see how everything might get blended into one big emotionally-charged mess. If Hawke is also a mage, it's even more extreme, I think.

I think he'd be jealous of anyone between him and Hawke, whether or not that person is Hawke's romantic interest, and whether or not Anders is romantically interested in Hawke, himself.  When you're obsessed with
someone, you don't want anyone coming between you -- platonically or otherwise.

It's definitely possible that there are genuine feelings there, or that he might even genuinely care for / love Hawke on a rivalry path (depending on how it's played), but I do think it's _really_ complicated. I mean, it's clearly painful and awful for Anders on a rivalry path, but he sticks with it and keeps trying to turn Hawke to his side. I always feel like it's a varying mix of personal feelings and political ones -- on a sliding scale depending on Hawke's actions and attitude.

I am slow at typing today -- I sliced my hand open earlier this morning and I have to hunt-and-peck at the keys, and it's miserable. So, apologies if I'm a few replies behind

Modifié par Leah.C, 07 août 2011 - 06:30 .

[berelinde]

YamiSnuffles wrote...
For the other LI's sleeping with them and generally confirming you have feelings for them is sort of the culmination of your relationship with them. However, you need to do more than that to consummate your relationship with him. As he says many times, he is the cause of the mages. You have to accept that part of him in some way in order to really confirm your relationship with him.

This explanation is brilliant. It always bothered me that Anders does not change his costume to reflect the PC's relationship with him, but it will bother me no longer. Thanks!

[L.C.]

berelinde wrote...

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Only with a female Hawke though. The dynamic he has with a male Hawke is entirely different.

Kind of different, but not completely. He still says "Be careful what you offer" in the most flirtatious manner imginable, just like he does with F!Hawke.

His Awakening Anders moment for the male PC occurs if Hawke flirts with him in the second conversation and follows it up with "I just never consdidered..." It is deliciosly cringe-worthy. Watch it on YouTube, if you haven't seen it in game yourself.

He's a lot more 'protective' with F!Hawke, IMHO. Puts the kibosh on it much more quickly, and then ends it with the comment that breaking her heart would 'kill [me] as surely as the templars'. That's still pretty heavy, even if it isn't as outrageously flirty as some of the male comments.

And that bit you linked to on Youtube pretty much made me drop my controller, at the time. I didn't see it until a second or third playthrough, having previously always been the aggressor (as both male and female Hawkes). Even I was going, "Woah, honey! Dial it back a notch! Didn't we meet ten minutes ago?"

He comes off REALLY strong on both, just in slightly different ways. And it's really most exaggerated if you initially flirted and then picked almost all the supportive/kind dialogue choices. It always tickled me that he responds better and more aggressively the nicer and more supportive you are early on, as opposed to the more you flirt with him.

As I think it was Yami who said above me somewhere... the whole key to Anders is accepting and supporting him. A romance is always secondary.

Modifié par Leah.C, 07 août 2011 - 06:50 .

[Ryzaki]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

He ends up pretty screwed up on either path.

Either merged into a hybrid being.
Or mentally beaten into a pulp.

Really. It's just your flavor of trainwreck when choosing friend/rival and what you hope he can bounce back from. 

[ademska]

well, i've caught up!

@Tidra, the context of the karl line is actually not so much expository of anders' proclivity to men or anything, although it does serve its purpose that way -- rather, it's testing the waters. it comes after picking a flirt line, and anders mentions his history with karl as a way to indirectly ask hawke his intentions and opinions. even though same-sex relationships aren't stigmatized as anything more than a "quirk" in thedas, they're still not as normalized as heterosexual relationships, and any gay person can tell you they've danced that same dance.

i'm not sure why the dynamic between mhawke and anders is so different from fhawke, but regardless the whole revert-to-awakening-anders explanation still fits. in the mhawke conversation, after anders flirts it up, he may not withdraw and reject hawke's advances, but he still launches into a glowy rant about mage oppression, which is in effect still an acknowledgment that he's not the same person who can flirt so indiscriminately.

edit: DAMMIT i haven't caught up! and got ninja'd, to boot.

Modifié par ademska, 07 août 2011 - 06:35 .

[Sinaxi]

berelinde wrote...

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Only with a female Hawke though. The dynamic he has with a male Hawke is entirely different.

Kind of different, but not completely. He still says "Be careful what you offer" in the most flirtatious manner imginable, just like he does with F!Hawke.

His Awakening Anders moment for the male PC occurs if Hawke flirts with him in the second conversation and follows it up with "I just never consdidered..." It is deliciosly cringe-worthy. Watch it on YouTube, if you haven't seen it in game yourself.

Hahaha. Yeaah I think I've watched that before. I do hate how Fem Hawke didn't get an extra halfway Justice freak out scene though...since I love Justicefreakouts.

I guess the same one doesn't happen for the Male PC? Since I definitely prefer his flirt for female haha >.> He also does it no matter what if you didn't flirt with him in the post-tranquility talk.
The kind, wise and beautiful one..It made a lot of sense that way to me as to why he develops an instant crush on her. The whole "we've hardly met and I feel like I know you" lol



But I've always preferred just letting him say that instead of picking whatever flirt option was there, I don't remember what Hawke says...but I always thought it was more interesting if he started it.

Modifié par Tidra, 07 août 2011 - 06:38 .

[berelinde]

@Tidra: Yeah, I always preferred to let him start it, too, regardless of whether I was running M!Hawke or F!Hawke, but I did it once for science, made a video of it for the thread, and decided that my fanfic's Iain is such a clueless n00b in all matters sexual that Anders would need to beat him over the head with an over-the-top come-hither for him to even notice. So it went from being one of my least favorite dialogue choices to headcanon without any intention on my part.