57019 réponses à ce sujet

[L.C.]

SurelyForth wrote...
See, I think it's more a realization that Hawke knows what he is and is sticking around and it pushes him closer to the edge of his control because it means that much to him. 

In my headcanon, the reason he waits until after Dissent is because he wants to make sure Hawke knows exactly what she's getting into. He knows she admires him for his selflessness, and she shares his views on mage freedom, but he also knows he has a side to him that can rage murder templars and Wardens. Until he feels like she's seen him at his worst, he's going to keep her at arm's length (theoretically, at least). After Dissent, if she's still around after he kills/almost kills Ella, he realizes that nothing will dissuade her at this point and he's sick of not being with someone who would look past the worst of him and still want a relationship/life with him. 

Or, um, something like that.

Well, yes. It pretty much goes hand-in-hand. Both cases it's also an indication that Hawke isn't about to pick up and leave when things get messy. That's kind of tied-in with the Justice freak-out bits. And touched on in his dialogue. Hawke has seen the worst of him, and is still sticking around. The first time, okay maybe it was a fluke. They'd just met and he didn't do any real damage.

But after Dissent, it's pretty clear he's got problems and can't control himself, stuff that would send most people running for the hills. But Hawke's still there.

And as much as I adore Anders to pieces, I think he's very, very needy. It's very clear that without support (either friendship or romance), he pretty much falls apart.

Every time he's trusted someone or something, it's blown up in his face. He tried to fit in with the wardens, but he was ostracized there, too. He tried to connect with Justice, but made a mess of it. He tried to reconnect with Karl, and well, we all know how that worked out (regardless of whether Karl is mentioned as a lover, it's clear they were close and trying to work together for the mage cause). And all those things happened in a fairly short period of time. That's a lot of sucker-punches to someone's heart for them to deal with.

By the time Dissent rolls around, it's been long enough that he can trust Hawke without worrying about opening himself up and then getting dropped flat on his face again.

So for me, when I think about it, it's a combination of all those things.

Modifié par Leah.C, 09 août 2011 - 04:34 .

[L.C.]

LT123 wrote...

What's the criteria for not having the star option? The wiki says "achieving friendship or rivalry." So I guess it's basically impossible to for the option to be missing, since by Act II you'd probably have him at least 1/3 of the way towards friendship or rivalry.

The way to _not_ get the star option is to basically ignore Anders altogether except for absolute necessities. Which makes sense. If you're not invested in a relationship with him one way or the other (friendship or rivalry), he isn't going to trust you, and isn't going to grow in either way that would affect his ability to exercise that tiny bit of control that matters at that crucial moment.

I know on the friendship route, if you look at it, it makes sense that Hawke might know the right thing to say to snap Anders out of it. Without the special option, all three choices are basically telling him to 'get a grip'. It doesn't work.

The special choice that actually works? I can't recall if it differs between genders/personality types, but my Hawke said, "You just saved her from being made Tranquil." I've always thought Tranquility was Anders' berserk button, and if Hawke is close enough to him on either end of the Friendship/Rivalry scale, s/he might realize that, too. And if the impending threat of Tranquility is really what makes him lose it, then maybe reminding him he just _stopped_ that from happening might snap him back to himself instead of letting Justice continue with his blind rampage. Instead of just saying, "Hey, knock it off!" Which clearly doesn't work.

IMHO, it's not really about stopping Justice (Justice/Vengeance doesn't take orders from Hawke) as much as it is giving Anders the strength to resist him.

Modifié par Leah.C, 09 août 2011 - 05:52 .

[berelinde]

I always enjoy discussions about Dissent and its romantic consequences. I usually just lurk during them because there isn't really any reason to jump in with "Me too!" every ten posts, but I'm feeling vocal today.

Anders is vulnerable. The way I see it, his attraction to Hawke is at least partially based on the fact that Hawke has seen him at his worst and still wants some (acceptance is important to Anders) and partially based on the fact that whether he is a friend or a rival, Hawke reminds him of what it is to be human, with human needs. I'm not saying these are the only reasons, just two of the more important ones, in my perception. Also, Anders has a desire to protect Hawke. Even if he doesn't bluntly say it to male Hawkes, his actions throughout the game show that he wants to shield Hawke from the worst that he is and the worst that he can (and will) do. If Hawke can see that ugliness and still want Anders in his or her life, his objections dissolve.

[L.C.]

berelinde wrote...

I always enjoy discussions about Dissent and its romantic consequences. I usually just lurk during them because there isn't really any reason to jump in with "Me too!" every ten posts, but I'm feeling vocal today.

Anders is vulnerable. The way I see it, his attraction to Hawke is at least partially based on the fact that Hawke has seen him at his worst and still wants some (acceptance is important to Anders) and partially based on the fact that whether he is a friend or a rival, Hawke reminds him of what it is to be human, with human needs. I'm not saying these are the only reasons, just two of the more important ones, in my perception. Also, Anders has a desire to protect Hawke. Even if he doesn't bluntly say it to male Hawkes, his actions throughout the game show that he wants to shield Hawke from the worst that he is and the worst that he can (and will) do. If Hawke can see that ugliness and still want Anders in his or her life, his objections dissolve.

Hey, I'm glad you're replying. It's no fun talking to myself.

Oh, goodness yes (at the part I bolded).

The whole Anders relationship has big fat flashing TRUST and ACCEPTANCE signs all over it. It overshadows the 'romance' part, for me. Every major event with him has huge trust issues woven into it. He very much needs acceptance -- to feel like he belongs somewhere, with someone (again, whether friend or lover).

That's what kills me about say, initiating a romance, sleeping with him, and then blowing him off and ending the relationship.

It's not, "Oh, you only wanted me for this." It's, "You've _broken my trust_."

Same with the post-Night Terrors quest. He will actually go so far as to forgive you for killing him in the Fade, if you explain yourself. If you blow him off without an explanation, he can't trust you anymore, so a relationship can't continue. I actually loved the blunt/direct response to the end of that, without picking the special option to explain yourself.

F!Hawke: Obviously, you don't trust me.
Anders: Obviously, I cannot.

And then says he will not stay in a relationship with someone who would sacrifice an innocent for personal gain, and breaks up with Hawke.

Of course, I reset the game and went back and picked the star option after. I just really wanted to see how the alternative played out.

Modifié par Leah.C, 09 août 2011 - 06:38 .

[Sinaxi]

Hehehee @ all of Anders random bipolar comments....though actually now that I look at that quote it actually isn't hypocritical. The whole "will not stay with someone who sacrifices an innocent for personal gain". I know a lot of people have remarked that is a blatantly hypocritical statement of his, but Anders doesn't sacrifice anyone for his own personal gain. He sacrifices others for what he believes is a greater good, not because he is like greedy or something. So yeah. I don't think him saying that is really a big deal as much anymore.

That was my own random train of thought that I was happy to share. Lol.

[Arquen]

My interest in Anders is precisely because of his conflicting tragedy. Somewhere in my psyche I want to believe that he can be salvaged, that things will work out for him, and that he will live to see at least part of his lifelong dream and struggles come to pass before he takes the long walk.

Anders' personality is also what draws me to him. Even nonromanced Dissent is very disturbing and jarring. As a rival you want to just be like "No, BAD Justice! DoWN!" and of course that option doesn't work, and then Anders' reaction just breaks your heart. The remorse of it all. If he "almost" kills Ella then my Hawke wants to just go up to him and say "but your strong, you almost killed her. You didn't actually kill her. There is a difference between intent and action!"

Seriously though I love riding the crazy train with Anders. I hate rivaling him. It makes me to sad to watch his utter spiral into the land of the broken. I keep telling myself one day I will try to romance him, but the crazy just drives me away. The end result that I KNOW is coming just makes me where I can't do it. I want to be his friend. I want to see him realize his goals.

When that chantry goes up and I have to make my final decision I go... "well... now there is no turning back. Time to ride this thing out and save who we can. Lost causes FTW!"

Modifié par Arquen, 09 août 2011 - 06:56 .

[berelinde]

Leah.C wrote...
That's what kills me about say, initiating a romance, sleeping with him, and then blowing him off and ending the relationship.

Yeah, holy cow, how sadistic would Hawke have to be to do that? If it were possible to do Anders and then go back to Fenris, I've got one Hawke who was evil enough to do it, but I don't think Fenris takes you back after you've been with Anders. For the record, I hate that Hawke. Her amorality disgusts me. Which is probably why that playthrough stalled. It was fun being a reprehensible human being for a while, but it got old.

Same with the post-Night Terrors quest. He will actually go so far as to forgive you for killing him in the Fade, if you explain yourself. If you blow him off without an explanation, he can't trust you anymore, so a relationship can't continue. I actually loved the blunt/direct response to the end of that, without picking the special option to explain yourself.

F!Hawke: Obviously, you don't trust me.
Anders: Obviously, I cannot.

And then says he will not stay in a relationship with someone who would sacrifice an innocent for personal gain, and breaks up with Hawke.

Of course, I reset the game and went back and picked the star option after. I just really wanted to see how the alternative played out.

Whoa, you've got more willpower than I. As much as I love Torpor's "Who would bond with that prig?" line, I just can't bring myself to keep a PT that involves breaking faith with Anders that much. Though I usually save before I enter the central hall, play it through to hear Torpor's line, and reload.

[L.C.]

berelinde wrote...
Whoa, you've got more willpower than I. As much as I love Torpor's "Who would bond with that prig?" line, I just can't bring myself to keep a PT that involves breaking faith with Anders that much. Though I usually save before I enter the central hall, play it through to hear Torpor's line, and reload.

*laughs*

I just _really_ like screwing with the demon.

Oh, silly demon. You thought I was going to help you? <3 Tsk, tsk.

Turnabout is fair play, isn't it?

Also, I thought Justice _really_ needed a good asskicking. I'm sorry, Anders.

Tidra wrote...

Hehehee @ all of Anders random bipolar comments....though actually now that I look at that quote it actually isn't hypocritical. The whole "will not stay with someone who sacrifices an innocent for personal gain". I know a lot of people have remarked that is a blatantly hypocritical statement of his, but Anders doesn't sacrifice anyone for his own personal gain. He sacrifices others for what he believes is a greater good, not because he is like greedy or
something. So yeah. I don't think him saying that is really a big deal as much anymore.

That was my own random train of thought that I was happy to share. Lol.

After Night Terrors, if you took Torpor up on his offer, Anders really believes you did it for personal gain. And if you _did_ deal with the demon, that is exactly what you did. At least he gives you the chance to explain yourself in the event that you killed Torpor instead and refused the deal.

And  I honestly really like the fact that there are just _some_ things he will not abide. I like it better than being able to shape companion characters completely to your will like little putty people.

I never had a problem with the reaction on his part. It is a _little_ hypocritical, but so is Anders. Forgivably and understandably, though. Ultimately, even if he sometimes could be perceived to have ulterior motives, he doesn't do anything out of complete and utter selfishness. Even if he's selfish, he really thinks he's doing something for the 'greater good'.

And he recognizes that in others. Even Meredith. When talking about Alrik, he really _really_ comes down with hatred on Alrik. He hates Meredith, but he even says himself that at least she thinks she's helping people (at least at that point in the story -- by Act 3 she's gone completely bonkers).

Modifié par Leah.C, 09 août 2011 - 07:24 .

[Arquen]

It's funny... I've never killed Anders in the fade. For some reason Torpor just disgusts me.

Also, because I love the chance to talk to Justice. He is like his old self from DAA in the fade, and I miss him a bit. I always listen to him as well, because he is FROM the fade and therefore is my resident expert on things, LOL. If he tells me this is a demon of sloth and not to deal with it, I'm inclined to agree.

I never much cared to deal or talk with demons. Even in DAO I just pretty much killed them indiscriminately because I knew they were just going to try and do the same. The only one I ever really made a deal with or just played mind games with was that one in Shale's quest "kitty." That was only to save the little girl though. Yet it was the only time I really sat there and tried to deal instead of just outright said "do not want."

Modifié par Arquen, 09 août 2011 - 07:45 .

[L.C.]

Demons disgust me, too, but not so much that I didn't prefer to fake Torpor out. Here's a taste of your own medicine, sir.

Of course, I only did that because I _knew_ you'd get a chance to kill him anyway and explain yourself to Anders. If I hadn't been spoiled for that, I'd have killed Torpor outright.

That whole 'Kitty' part was so unbelievably creepy.

[Sinaxi]

berelinde wrote...

Leah.C wrote...
That's what kills me about say, initiating a romance, sleeping with him, and then blowing him off and ending the relationship.

Yeah, holy cow, how sadistic would Hawke have to be to do that? If it were possible to do Anders and then go back to Fenris, I've got one Hawke who was evil enough to do it, but I don't think Fenris takes you back after you've been with Anders. For the record, I hate that Hawke. Her amorality disgusts me. Which is probably why that playthrough stalled. It was fun being a reprehensible human being for a while, but it got old.

Haha..omg, I know I have said this before in this thread but yeah...totally kicking Anders out after pretty much telling the guy "Oh, I've never felt this way about anyone before." and sleeping with him is like..so freaaaaaaking harsh. I mentioned this before, but I was so shocked and was LOLing so hard when I heard sarcastic Hawke say "uh sorry...you just weren't that good.." I was like WTF?!?! That line is so ridiculously hilarious and cruel. Freaking sarcastic Hawke...ahahaha. The look Anders has on his face when you tell him to just GTFO is so saaaad.

I don't think it's a bad thing Anders is all about trust, trust is sort of the #1 thing in any relationship (obviously other things are involved) but yeah I think trust is probably the most important. So when like you pretty much manipulate this guy into thinking you love him and sleep with him, and then tell him you were just screwing with him it's not so much about "Oh, you just wanted me for sex.." I mean, Anders appears to have uh...done a lot of that, in his time. I don't think that would necessarily bother him...if it wasn't Hawke. It's Hawke though, someone he literally has had feelings for like 3 years and trusted and they just completely spat on that like it was a total game. It's pretty much downright horrible.

So yeah. I would be SERIOUSLY. PISSED. OFF. And HURT. Because that is...like he says, a gigantic violation of trust.

Edit - Wait. Does he even actually use the words "I trusted you?" I don't even think he does in that break up scene...well regardless I always got that impression from the way he said "You used me" You have me confused now Leah! You said something about broken trust...dammit!

Modifié par Tidra, 09 août 2011 - 07:57 .

[L.C.]

What I said wasn't an actual quote from the game, it was just my own words.

I'm sorry if it confused you! Yes, Anders' actual words are, "You used me!" There's more before it, but I can't recall the exact words.

Modifié par Leah.C, 09 août 2011 - 08:03 .

[Sinaxi]

Leah.C wrote...

What I said wasn't an actual quote from the game, it was just my own words.

I'm sorry if it confused you!

Haha, I'm kidding. But you are right about the trust thing..which is why I just assumed that's what he said...I honestly swear I thought he said "I trusted you" somewhere in there, because it fits the scene so perfectly. Regardless if he says it or not, that was the whole issue. He is like "What? I...we talked about this?" like how they felt about each other and then when Hawke is all "LOLZ, NOPE. NOT SRS DUDE, GTFO." He is just taken soooo badly off guard because Hawke totally lied to him about everything. So yeah, still a huge violation of trust. Which is the real reason he is so upset, since at that point it's not even so much about the sex. He thought Hawke actually felt the same way He says "You used me" but being used also implies manipulation which is exactly what Hawke did.

It's ALLLL about tha trussst. Must have the trust!

[L.C.]

Oh, no worries, then.

Sorry if I'm a bit slow on the uptake! It's 4AM and I'm trying to get my Anders fix at work during breaks. <3

He _may_ have said the word 'trust' in there somewhere, but I honestly can't remember. I swear I need to record everything in text format and save it to a Google Doc so I can just pull it up on my phone whenever I need to quote something that isn't on the wiki.

That wouldn't be pathetic or anything, right?

I don't recall if the breakup line after sleeping with him is affected by personality, but I _think_ it was my diplomatic male Hawke picking the breakup choice at that point that gave me a line that was like, 'Sorry, I guess you're just more serious about this than I am,' or something equivalent to that. I can't be exactly sure, since I can't check right at the moment, but I think that was it.

I don't know which is worse, reducing the entire thing down to a performance-related joke ("You weren't that good"), or flat-out telling him, 'I don't care about you as much as you thought I did.' They're both pretty horrible.

Modifié par Leah.C, 09 août 2011 - 09:01 .

[berelinde]

The "diplomatic" response is worse. The horrible performance-related joke, at least, addresses the reality that "Nothing I say is going to make this less painful for you, so I'm just going to leave it there. Here's your toothbrush."

[L.C.]

Honestly, I think I agree.

I just went and tried like six different combinations of responses in the romance scene before the rejection (reloading it over and over again) to see if any of them ended up with something less harsh. It really doesn't get any better.

And, man, did that make me feel slimy.

Modifié par Leah.C, 09 août 2011 - 12:27 .

[TanyaT]

in my head Ser Pounce-a-lot is living with Queen Gwithian and bossing around her hound Rothko. it's a shame that King Alistair didn't tell Anders when they met, it would have cheered Anders up a lot.

has anyone called their cat Ser Pounce-a-lot? my sweetie is on her last legs, I am seriously considering calling the next kittens in my life Zevran and Ser Pounce-a-lot

[berelinde]

TanyaT wrote...
has anyone called their cat Ser Pounce-a-lot? my sweetie is on her last legs, I am seriously considering calling the next kittens in my life Zevran and Ser Pounce-a-lot

We've recently adopted a neighborhood stray as a parasite dependent, and fiance was trying to come up with a name for him. I suggested Ser Pounce-a-Lot but fiance, who has heard DA:A and DA2 through my computer speakers far, far too many times, vetoed that suggestion immediately. I suggested Pounce next, but that met with a similar fate. Now outside-kitty is Aslan. (sigh)

[L.C.]

I've got an orange tabby, but I've had him for several years. If he was a new kitty, I might have been compelled to name him 'Pounce', but not the full thing. I would have felt way too goofy signing him up at the vet.

Modifié par Leah.C, 09 août 2011 - 12:24 .

[YamiSnuffles]

I can't do the romance break up scene. Definitely not with Anders but I've also never broken up with any of the other LIs in BW games. Even in the admirable name of SCIENCE! I feel like they'll know, even if I promptly reload, haha.

As for kittens, I sadly don't and can't own any. I have fairly large dogs that like to try to eat anything smaller than them. A friend of mine adopted a orange tabby kitten a bit ago, though. I campaigned really hard for the name Ser Pounce-a-Lot, but it didn't stick. She named him Loki instead.

[L.C.]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

I can't do the romance break up scene. Definitely not with Anders but I've also never broken up with any of the other LIs in BW games. Even in the admirable name of SCIENCE! I feel like they'll know, even if I promptly reload, haha.

It's better that way. My experiment did not make me feel good.

I need to bathe in kittens to wash the ickiness off.

Modifié par Leah.C, 09 août 2011 - 12:33 .

[ipgd]

The sarcastic break up scene just makes me laugh my ass off, I can't help it.

TanyaT wrote...

has anyone called their cat Ser Pounce-a-lot? my sweetie is on her last legs, I am seriously considering calling the next kittens in my life Zevran and Ser Pounce-a-lot

I don't think I could name a pet Ser Pounce-a-Lot. It doesn't lend that well to ridiculous nicknames like Floo Floo or Meeegoooo so I'd have to call it pooossy keeeett all of the time which would get awkward.

Modifié par ipgd, 09 août 2011 - 12:36 .

[YamiSnuffles]

It really does seem like any Hawke that sleeps with him and then breaks up with him is just using him, like he says. I find it hard to think of a good, honest reason for Hawke to sleep with Anders and then kick him to the curb. As has been mentioned, by the time Hawke can sleep with Anders, s/he has seen the worst Anders has to offer. If Hawke moves forward despite this knowledge, then it's a sign of acceptance.

The one diplomatic answer you can give about just not caring as much as he does is a little face palm worthy. I mean, why wouldn't the super intensely emotional guy have super intense emotions about the one person he cares most for?

[L.C.]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

It really does seem like any Hawke that sleeps with him and then breaks up with him is just using him, like he says. I find it hard to think of a good, honest reason for Hawke to sleep with Anders and then kick him to the curb. As has been mentioned, by the time Hawke can sleep with Anders, s/he has seen the worst Anders has to offer. If Hawke moves forward despite this knowledge, then it's a sign of acceptance.

The one diplomatic answer you can give about just not caring as much as he does is a little face palm worthy. I mean, why wouldn't the super intensely emotional guy have super intense emotions about the one person he cares most for?

You pretty much have to be heartless to pick that option at that point, especially since all the 'diplomatic' type answers thus far for every Anders scene leading up to it have been all about telling him you accept him and that he's a good person, doing the right thing, et cetera. You know. Showing him you _really_ care about him.

What's crazy is: Anders will say, "I don't want to leave you." Hakwe can respond, "Don't ever leave," and then IMMEDIATELY dump him by refusing to let Anders move in. Right after all the, "It would kill me to lose you / You aren't going to lose me" bits.

That is some cold, cold oatmeal.

"But... you just said..."
"Oh. That. I didn't mean it 'literally''.

If there were ever a perfect moment for Anders to whip out the, "Suck on a fireball!" line... I'd have liked to see him set the liar's pants on fire. Just a bit.

Modifié par Leah.C, 09 août 2011 - 12:55 .