57019 réponses à ce sujet

[YamiSnuffles]

I can understand why Anders would rub people the wrong way. He does kind of go on an on about mages. So if you don't care about the mage issue or you take his passion about it as whining, then he'd probably be rather annoying to have about.

I meanwhile love all of his impassioned speeches. He starts ranting and I'm like, "Ooh yeah. Talk magey to me, Anders."

Modifié par YamiSnuffles, 10 août 2011 - 06:02 .

[cmessaz]

Me too. I never try to convince someone else to like a character they don't, because it really just comes down to personal taste. I can explain why I love him, and why I support him. It is just nice to know that there ARE others who like him too LOL

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I'm more like "Here, let me see that manifesto, I think I can improve your phrasing in a lot of places. Like here... people don't like to be harangued, they like to feel like they're good people, it makes them want to live up to your expectations. And do you really want to use that metaphor here? The reality is bad enough, and far more convincing."

[Sialater]

cmessaz wrote...

Sialater wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

Sialater wrote...

I can't shake the idea that not even Justice can entirely explain his actions. Just found a new "magical excuse" in Legacy last night. There's a part of a Grey Warden Journal that blames Corypheus as the ultimate cause for the Veil's thinness.

I noticed that. I was told I was nuts for thinking it might be connected.

Why on EARTH would someone tell you THAT?  BW set up magical maguffins to take the blame for both sides.  Or be the catalysts, depending on your point of view. 

Because this person thinks I'm a mindless Anders fangirl. XD

Which may be true..but they saw it as me looking for a reason to justify Anders actions.

I got that, too, till I actually called up the entry on the Enigma of Kirkwall.

[cmessaz]

Definately will be taking a screenshot of that for proof next time I go through Legacy.

[YamiSnuffles]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Ooh, that's nice. I really like his expression. Well done!

Thanks. I do love serious Anders (especially in his black coat). I need to draw him more often.

[Sinaxi]

esper wrote...

Tidra wrote...

As far as more people keeping Anders alive....idk. There seem to be quite a few people on these forums that reaaaally hate him. Even if they side with Mages they are all "Anders is an annoying whiny ****. I kill him every time." I chalk it up to them being lame Chantry Apologists though...

Most super staunch Mage supporters seem to keep him alive though. I mean, I know his character is vastly different from what it was in DA:A, but like...he never seemed that annoying to me. Sure, there are a couple of scenes where he can be overbearing I guess...apparently I am just blind to those moments lol. Or they just don't matter to me since in the long run I agree with most of his points about Mages. Oh well, to each their own.

To be honest I can't look at DA:A without wantig to grab Anders by the collor and shake and say grow up you could be so much more. People today have a generel tendency to say that any charactar that complains about anything is a whiner.
Yes, Anders complains, but he has been through hell. Fenris complains, but the same can be said for him. They are ALLOWED to complain with what they have been through. Characters like Isabella rubs me the wrong way so much more because I feel that Isabella really is just a backstabbing thief. 
What I find really disturbing is that I think that more people would spare Anders if he had DA:A personality.  

They would, most of the time they are going on about how he was so cool in DA:A and now he is just "****ing lame" or something to that extent lol. I've seen that said many times that they used to love him but DA2 made them hate him lol.

But aw, I love Isabela. She is a thief. But when she comes back in Act 2 she sufficiently proves her loyalty. Normally Isabela would have high-tailed it out of Kirkwall when everything started going to hell, she did it in DA:O. Said she was getting the eff out before the Blight hit. She had no reason to stay in Kirkwall, in Act 3 it's hardly her fight at all but she did because she wanted to prove herself to Hawke. Her last lines are some of my favorite in the whole game. "I know I don't exactly inspire confidence...but I swear, I'm going to come through for you this time. When you look for me, I'll be fighting at your side." It makes me want to give her a giant hug. She's also my second preferred romance, Anders just fits more with the storyline for me but I definitely love Isabela haha.

[esper]

I don't know what about Isabella that makes me dislike her... I think it is the fact that people excuse her actions with her humor: 'It is all right that Isabella ran away with the book in the first place because she is funny' - I swear I have seen that logic implied so many places that I take people's weirdness out on poor Isabella (who really doesn't deserve it, because she is a good character and loyal if you earned,)

[MG800]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I'm more like "Here, let me see that manifesto, I think I can improve your phrasing in a lot of places. Like here... people don't like to be harangued, they like to feel like they're good people, it makes them want to live up to your expectations. And do you really want to use that metaphor here? The reality is bad enough, and far more convincing."

Exactly my Hawke. Who rivaled him. He wasn't that delicate - you know spending 3 years with a guy who's basicly telling you, that you're a hopeless pack of idiocy, and ranting had to do something bad with Anders psyhique.
On the good note: it didn't took so much fighting to convinvce him to take mages side.

And I'm more like "ooh, fiery speeches!" and... end up not listening to him at all. I'm already convinced, and his blind idealism... it's stupid and beautiful. "Sure, you feel very strongly, and you think you can hit everyone with your arguments and voila - convinced! Or dead. So, go ahead, I'll watch, and maybe throw some bricks myself."

Modifié par MG800, 10 août 2011 - 06:53 .

[cmessaz]

esper wrote...

I don't know what about Isabella that makes me dislike her... I think it is the fact that people excuse her actions with her humor: 'It is all right that Isabella ran away with the book in the first place because she is funny' - I swear I have seen that logic implied so many places that I take people's weirdness out on poor Isabella (who really doesn't deserve it, because she is a good character and loyal if you earned,)

I like Isabela alot but this is what kind of bugs me too.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Isabella totally stole Anders' new girlfriend.

I made a new character to "apologize" to Anders for subjecting him to my sociopath and then having Garret end up with Fenris, so I made him an idealized mage girl. Smart, funny, the best looking Hawke I've managed in a while, completely devoted to the mage cause, very positive about the Justice situation, pretty much the best possible cure for all his ills. I was going to have her just do the Isabella tumble (like you do), and then move on to Anders, but I couldn't resist teasing Isabella about her relationship problems and things just escalated from there...

[Sinaxi]

esper wrote...

I don't know what about Isabella that makes me dislike her... I think it is the fact that people excuse her actions with her humor: 'It is all right that Isabella ran away with the book in the first place because she is funny' - I swear I have seen that logic implied so many places that I take people's weirdness out on poor Isabella (who really doesn't deserve it, because she is a good character and loyal if you earned,)

I don't excuse her for her humor...I love her for her humor, but what she did is not all that surprising to me. It's just who she is, she's been that way most of her life and only had to look out for numero uno. She just insisted on lying to herself that she really wanted to stay for Hawke (whether as a friend or a romance) so it takes her pretty much stealing the book, leaving Kirkwall, and then realizing on the way out..."Ugh. What am I doing?" so she just has to turn around. Other than that, the Qunari conflict is technically her fault since she directly stole the book but it also took her years to recover it so there wasn't much she could do until she tracked it down. The Qunari going nuts and attacking Kirkwall isn't "exactly" her fault, but like I said she stole the book which led to them being there so yeah...if they had never been there in the first place none of that probably would have occurred.

Initially stealing the book though to me isn't like this horrible horrible thing, because again...she is a thief. Stealing priceless artifacts is usually in the job descrip haha. I'm assuming she didn't expect the Qunari to be so insane about retrieving it and Castillion is the one that tasked her with retrieving it in the first place I believe.

[nitefyre410]

mannn I Think I;ll come in here and chill out for a bit - the DA 2 vs DA:O the "DOOOOOMMMM" of Bioware battle is still going strong

Isabella - well Isabella took a job and it blew up into something that was out of her control so like most Pirates she " Fight's to run away" . I was irked and pissed that she did it but much like Anders I was not going sell a friend out.

[YamiSnuffles]

Isabela was the main thing that got me to stop replaying my canon Andersmancing Hawke again and again. I made and played through a new Hawke just for her. Of course, her romance was so much fun, I'm a little worried she'll steal away any other Hawke I make.

Don't get me wrong. Anders is spectacular and definitely my favorite romance. However, I like the dynamic with my canon so much, it's hard for me to imagine someone different romancing him. Plus, it is kind of a depressing romance. Isabela's romance is like the opposite; it was very care free and fun.

[esper]

Tidra wrote...

esper wrote...

I don't know what about Isabella that makes me dislike her... I think it is the fact that people excuse her actions with her humor: 'It is all right that Isabella ran away with the book in the first place because she is funny' - I swear I have seen that logic implied so many places that I take people's weirdness out on poor Isabella (who really doesn't deserve it, because she is a good character and loyal if you earned,)

I don't excuse her for her humor...I love her for her humor, but what she did is not all that surprising to me. It's just who she is, she's been that way most of her life and only had to look out for numero uno. She just insisted on lying to herself that she really wanted to stay for Hawke (whether as a friend or a romance) so it takes her pretty much stealing the book, leaving Kirkwall, and then realizing on the way out..."Ugh. What am I doing?" so she just has to turn around. Other than that, the Qunari conflict is technically her fault since she directly stole the book but it also took her years to recover it so there wasn't much she could do until she tracked it down. The Qunari going nuts and attacking Kirkwall isn't "exactly" her fault, but like I said she stole the book which led to them being there so yeah...if they had never been there in the first place none of that probably would have occurred.

Initially stealing the book though to me isn't like this horrible horrible thing, because again...she is a thief. Stealing priceless artifacts is usually in the job descrip haha. I'm assuming she didn't expect the Qunari to be so insane about retrieving it and Castillion is the one that tasked her with retrieving it in the first place I believe.

The horrible thing is that she steals it in to-catch a thief. without that the last little chance to stop the arishok goes. He would have stopped, he leaves without a fuss if you hand Isabella over (a terrible thing to do.). I didn't say that you personally excuse Isabella because of her humor, it is all right to like it. I loved Zevran in Dao becaus he made smile and he was an assissin and not terrible beaten up about his career. But many people talk like the qunari thing is not big deal when it is, because Isabella is funny and it really, really bugs me - so much that I don't want to romance her, just as it bugs me that I think Anders would be more liked if he still had Da:a personality. The truth is if Anders had acted like he did in Da:a for the most of Da2 I wouldn't have felt so much for him and don't think I would have been able to forgive him for the chantry - I wouldn't have been able to take him seriously. 

[esper]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Isabella totally stole Anders' new girlfriend.

I made a new character to "apologize" to Anders for subjecting him to my sociopath and then having Garret end up with Fenris, so I made him an idealized mage girl. Smart, funny, the best looking Hawke I've managed in a while, completely devoted to the mage cause, very positive about the Justice situation, pretty much the best possible cure for all his ills. I was going to have her just do the Isabella tumble (like you do), and then move on to Anders, but I couldn't resist teasing Isabella about her relationship problems and things just escalated from there...

Poor Anders. FOREVER ALONE.

That happed to me once, too. Though it was Merrill stealing Isabela's new girlfriend. I decided to run through her romance, so I made a snarky, freedom-loving, morally ambiguous blood mage just for her. But then Merrill suddenly barrelled through the door at a point in Act 2, admitting her utter devotion to Hawke with hope clear in her giant, sad puppy eyes and before I knew it they were in bed together declaring their love and discussing cohabitation. I have no idea what happened.

That happened in my Fenris romance, and because I had rival Merrill Hawke wouldn't send her away with anything other than a really, really rude remark. So I had to restart the character.

[cmessaz]

nitefyre410 wrote...

mannn I Think I;ll come in here and chill out for a bit - the DA 2 vs DA:O the "DOOOOOMMMM" of Bioware battle is still going strong

Isabella - well Isabella took a job and it blew up into something that was out of her control so like most Pirates she " Fight's to run away" . I was irked and pissed that she did it but much like Anders I was not going sell a friend out.

Yeah this is how I feel. It's just those who excuse hers and comdemn other characters for what they do. And most of them do something stupid at some point. Except Varric.

And yeah gotta love that war <.<

Modifié par cmessaz, 10 août 2011 - 07:36 .

[Sinaxi]

esper wrote...
The horrible thing is that she steals it in to-catch a thief. without that the last little chance to stop the arishok goes. He would have stopped, he leaves without a fuss if you hand Isabella over (a terrible thing to do.). I didn't say that you personally excuse Isabella because of her humor, it is all right to like it. I loved Zevran in Dao becaus he made smile and he was an assissin and not terrible beaten up about his career. But many people talk like the qunari thing is not big deal when it is, because Isabella is funny and it really, really bugs me - so much that I don't want to romance her, just as it bugs me that I think Anders would be more liked if he still had Da:a personality. The truth is if Anders had acted like he did in Da:a for the most of Da2 I wouldn't have felt so much for him and don't think I would have been able to forgive him for the chantry - I wouldn't have been able to take him seriously. 

Well DA:A Anders would never have blown up the Chantry in most liklihood. He was very much like Isabela, he even has a banter with her where he says he misses being able to be that selfish sometimes and not caring what people thought about him & how he told Justice helping Mages was "just too much work".

The thing is, I know it's a big deal but like I said Isabela kind of had to steal the book again in order to realize that she didn't want to keep going about this life blithely ignoring the consequences of her actions. Later on she will say it was stupid of her to return and bring it back, because she still struggles with the fact that "old" Isabela would have kept right on sailing to Ostwick. But she didn't and this is something that is very new for her - actually putting other people ahead of herself. Whether she did it solely for Hawke or for the people of Kirkwall, it's still putting someone above herself. That's hard for her because for the longest time, she felt the only person she could actually rely on was herself...so to top it off when Hawke doesn't turn her into the Qunari it makes her very happy but also freaks her out to an extent because here is this person who is willing to duel the Arishok for her and it's suddenly like she's not all by herself anymore & couple that with the fact that she came back at all lol.

Yes it's terrible, Hawke is basically put into "I'm ****ed" position after she steals it in that quest, but how could Hawke have known the Qunari would have left when they got the book back anyways? They were at their wits end at that point, and the Arishok was extremely pissed off. Giving them back the book was not a guaranteed "Oh okay, everything's cool now...see ya later guys!" Blood was going to be spilled either way. This doesn't excuse the fact that she stole it in the first place, or stole it again in the quest but nothing was a guarantee at that point.

Giving them Isabela is a cop-out imo, because at that point they had already been destroying the city and killing innocent people so they don't exactly "leave without a fuss". Sure, she was to blame for them being in Kirkwall but if Isabela were going to be punished for her actions it should have been by the people of Kirkwall - not sending her back to pacify the Arishok after he decided to go nuts.

I can understand why he went nuts on a certain level, even by simply being in the city zealots were trying to kill his people and incite bloodshed which is pretty sad given he hadn't done anything to deserve it. He began getting himself too involved in political affairs after that, and their cultures are so wildly different that he was sick of watching what he thought of as "disgust and weakness" fester all around him. As far as the Elves he was protecting went, I did kind of agree with him that they were justified in their actions. I feel like in the long run he pretty much just took his anger out on Kirkwall because he was pissed he couldn't recover the tome, and also that at that point he was just looking for an excuse to sort of attack. So I don't put the entirety of blame for all of that on Isabela.

I guess you can say it's dumb that she doesn't have to suffer any consequences for what she did, but eh - I also didn't kill Anders so I can't really be a judge of that because I wouldn't send her with the Arishok, nor would I backstab Anders. (They are also my top 2 favorites in DA2 so they are )

Modifié par Tidra, 10 août 2011 - 07:49 .

[esper]

Tidra wrote...

esper wrote...
The horrible thing is that she steals it in to-catch a thief. without that the last little chance to stop the arishok goes. He would have stopped, he leaves without a fuss if you hand Isabella over (a terrible thing to do.). I didn't say that you personally excuse Isabella because of her humor, it is all right to like it. I loved Zevran in Dao becaus he made smile and he was an assissin and not terrible beaten up about his career. But many people talk like the qunari thing is not big deal when it is, because Isabella is funny and it really, really bugs me - so much that I don't want to romance her, just as it bugs me that I think Anders would be more liked if he still had Da:a personality. The truth is if Anders had acted like he did in Da:a for the most of Da2 I wouldn't have felt so much for him and don't think I would have been able to forgive him for the chantry - I wouldn't have been able to take him seriously. 

Well DA:A Anders would never have blown up the Chantry in most liklihood. He was very much like Isabela, he even has a banter with her where he says he misses being able to be that selfish sometimes and not caring what people thought about him & how he told Justice helping Mages was "just too much work".

The thing is, I know it's a big deal but like I said Isabela kind of had to steal the book again in order to realize that she didn't want to keep going about this life blithely ignoring the consequences of her actions. Later on she will say it was stupid of her to return and bring it back, because she still struggles with the fact that "old" Isabela would have kept right on sailing to Ostwick. But she didn't and this is something that is very new for her - actually putting other people ahead of herself. Whether she did it solely for Hawke or for the people of Kirkwall, it's still putting someone above herself.

Yes it's terrible, Hawke is basically put into "I'm ****ed" position after she steals it in that quest, but how could Hawke have known the Qunari would have left when they got the book back anyways? They were at their wits end at that point, and the Arishok was extremely pissed off. Giving them back the book was not a guaranteed "Oh okay, everything's cool now...see ya later guys!" Blood was going to be spilled either way. This doesn't excuse the fact that she stole it in the first place, or stole it again in the quest but nothing was a guarantee at that point.

Giving them Isabela is a cop-out imo, because at that point they had already been destroying the city and killing innocent people so they don't exactly "leave without a fuss". Sure, she was to blame for them being in Kirkwall but if Isabela were going to be punished for her actions it should have been by the people of Kirkwall - not sending her back to pacify the Arishok after he decided to go nuts.

I can understand why he went nuts on a certain level, even by simply being in the city zealots were trying to kill his people and incite bloodshed which is pretty sad given he hadn't done anything to deserve it. He began getting himself too involved in political affairs after that, and their cultures are so wildly different that he was sick of watching what he thought of as "disgust and weakness" fester all around him. As far as the Elves he was protecting went, I did kind of agree with him that they were justified in their actions. I feel like in the long run he pretty much just took his anger out on Kirkwall because he was pissed he couldn't recover the tome, and also that at that point he was just looking for an excuse to sort of attack. So I don't put the entirety of blame for all of that on Isabela

I guess you can say it's dumb that she doesn't have to suffer any consequences for what she did, but eh - I also didn't kill Anders so I can't really be a judge of that because I wouldn't send her with the Arishok, nor would I backstab Anders. (They are also my top 2 favorites in DA2 so they are )

I don't hand Isabella over. As you said I would never backstab a friend like that, I did it once for science and never more.
It is not as much Isabella's action as the way people view them that bugs me.I think that Isabella stays true to her character and I admit that I am taking my frustration with people's reaction out on her.

Awakening Anders would properly never had jenka'ed the chantry I agree with that, but let's pretend he would... I would NEVER had been able to forgive him. I would not have killed him, but I would not have believed in his cause, because in real life I am a person that believes in compromise and non-violent solutions, but because Anders is the way he is, he convinced me that he did the necesarry thing and that he is right: There is no compromise in Kirkwall, and happy-go-lucky-hide-behind-humor could never convince me of that. It takes some real pain, some real desperation, some real passion and some real belief.

[Sinaxi]

No I know, I feel like people are very superficial tbh when it comes to how they view characters. It's either "omg he's so cute and funny" or "he's a whiny ****ing **** I hope he dies" rofl. I mean I am exaggerating but like, I don't really think people understand that Isabela is not just this pirate "ho" as many people like to believe she is. They don't really care why she did what she did, they only want to keep her around because she's great fun. Which she IS great fun, but I also like that there is this deeper & softer side to her that exists that she is afraid to confront. She's absolutely darling with a romanced Hawke. Hehe.

So yes, it does suck that people have no issues with what she did, or are much less harsh concerning her since it wasn't like "directly" her fault (which I also did say I don't think the entirety of blame can be left solely on her)... but when it comes to Anders they all take the gloves off and are like "AMG EFF YOU ANDERS!!111!!1!!! GRAND CLERIC ELTHINA WAS SUCH A NICE LADY!! YOU SUCK, DA:A ANDERS WAS SO MUCH BETTER RAWR GRR ARRGHH!" It is lol worthy.

[cmessaz]

Tidra wrote...

No I know, I feel like people are very superficial tbh when it comes to how they view characters. It's either "omg he's so cute and funny" or "he's a whiny ****ing **** I hope he dies" rofl. I mean I am exaggerating but like, I don't really think people understand that Isabela is not just this pirate "ho" as many people like to believe she is. They don't really care why she did what she did, they only want to keep her around because she's great fun. Which she IS great fun, but I also like that there is this deeper & softer side to her that exists that she is afraid to confront. She's absolutely darling with a romanced Hawke. Hehe.

So yes, it does suck that people have no issues with what she did, or are much less harsh concerning her since it wasn't like "directly" her fault (which I also did say I don't think the entirety of blame can be left solely on her)... but when it comes to Anders they all take the gloves off and are like "AMG EFF YOU ANDERS!!111!!1!!! GRAND CLERIC ELTHINA WAS SUCH A NICE LADY!! YOU SUCK, DA:A ANDERS WAS SO MUCH BETTER RAWR GRR ARRGHH!" It is lol worthy.

Yes..exactly. And LOL.

[esper]

Tidra wrote...

No I know, I feel like people are very superficial tbh when it comes to how they view characters. It's either "omg he's so cute and funny" or "he's a whiny ****ing **** I hope he dies" rofl. I mean I am exaggerating but like, I don't really think people understand that Isabela is not just this pirate "ho" as many people like to believe she is. They don't really care why she did what she did, they only want to keep her around because she's great fun. Which she IS great fun, but I also like that there is this deeper & softer side to her that exists that she is afraid to confront. She's absolutely darling with a romanced Hawke. Hehe.

So yes, it does suck that people have no issues with what she did, or are much less harsh concerning her since it wasn't like "directly" her fault (which I also did say I don't think the entirety of blame can be left solely on her)... but when it comes to Anders they all take the gloves off and are like "AMG EFF YOU ANDERS!!111!!1!!! GRAND CLERIC ELTHINA WAS SUCH A NICE LADY!! YOU SUCK, DA:A ANDERS WAS SO MUCH BETTER RAWR GRR ARRGHH!" It is lol worthy.

^Sometimes because of stuff like that it really feels like the Anders tread is the only refugee in this forum, and sadly your aren't fully exaggerating the bolded part there is a lot of that. I know that Isabella is a strong character and she is he one second most involved in the story so it irritates me to have her ruined in that way, one day I will get over it and romance Isabella.... It is just hard to resist Anders and all his crazyness.

[Sinaxi]

TBH...many of the characters in DA2 have done some pretty terrible things whether they meant to or not. Merrill was only trying to restore parts of her history, but it led to Marethari dying because she wanted to protect her (and it can lead to wiping out the whole clan if you pick the wrong option)...Isabela has the whole Qunari thing which led to many innocent deaths and political turmoil, Fenris killed a whole tribe of Fog Warriors which isn't seen in game but it still happened. Even in DA:O Zevran is like, an assassin..killed PLENTY of people. Sten killed a whole family, Leilana was a bard that has probably killed some innocents in her time as well...

Anders is a whole different story apparently. Honestly, I think mostly all of it has to do with the fact that he blows up a building. People see buildings blown up and their minds instantly go "TERRORIST." They also have this warped view of Grand Cleric Elthina as if she actually was a mediator or did her job, which she didn't. By not stopping the growing hostilities between Meredith and Orsino it was inevitable something like this was going to occur even if Anders hadn't blown up the Chantry (the symbol of Mage Oppression).

Elthina didn't do her job, and Meredith continued to pressure the Mages - her oppressive antics probably began to be imitated by many the Templars under her charge as well. We could say Alrik was just a nutjob who wanted to turn all Mages Tranquil, which he was, but look at who is leading him. Another nutjob that has no desire but to inspire fear in all the Mages she comes across. She allowed Mages to be turned Tranquil who had already passed their Harrowing, and even clicking on random Mages in the Gallows reveals really creepy dialogue about how they can't even talk to anyone or they'll get beat. No wonder they were all turning to blood magic (which has A LOT to do with how thin the veil is in Kirkwall according to codex entries) This stuff went on for years without Elthina doing a damn thing because she is apparently just a sweet little old priest who is going to pray to the Maker to make everything better. Give me a freaking break. >.>

Am I saying Anders was justified in killing her or the other people in the Chantry? No, not at all. But why do all these other companions in the Dragon Age series get a free pass on all the people they've murdered?

Modifié par Tidra, 10 août 2011 - 08:15 .