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[cmessaz]

Tidra wrote...

TBH...many of the characters in DA2 have done some pretty terrible things whether they meant to or not. Merrill was only trying to restore parts of her history, but it led to Marethari dying because she wanted to protect her (and it can lead to wiping out the whole clan if you pick the wrong option)...Isabela has the whole Qunari thing which led to many innocent deaths and political turmoil, Fenris killed a whole tribe of Fog Warriors which isn't seen in game but it still happened. Even in DA:O Zevran is like, an assassin..killed PLENTY of people. Sten killed a whole family, Leilana was a bard that has probably killed some innocents in her time as well...

Anders is a whole different story apparently. Honestly, I think mostly all of it has to do with the fact that he blows up a building. People see buildings blown up and their minds instantly go "TERRORIST." They also have this warped view of Grand Cleric Elthina as if she actually was a mediator or did her job, which she didn't. By not stopping the growing hostilities between Meredith and Orsino it was inevitable something like this was going to occur even if Anders hadn't blown up the Chantry (the symbol of Mage Oppression).

Elthina didn't do her job, and Meredith continued to pressure the Mages - her oppressive antics probably began to be imitated by many the Templars under her charge as well. We could say Alrik was just a nutjob who wanted to turn all Mages Tranquil, which he was, but look at who is leading him. Another nutjob that has no desire but to inspire fear in all the Mages she comes across. She allowed Mages to be turned Tranquil who had already passed their Harrowing, and even clicking on random Mages in the Gallows reveals really creepy dialogue about how they can't even talk to anyone or they'll get beat. No wonder they were all turning to blood magic (which has A LOT to do with how thin the veil is in Kirkwall according to codex entries) This stuff went on for years without Elthina doing a damn thing because she is apparently just a sweet little old priest who is going to pray to the Maker to make everything better. Give me a freaking break. >.>

Am I saying Anders was justified in killing her or the other people in the Chantry? No, not at all. But why do all these other companions in the Dragon Age series get a free pass on all the people they've murdered?

Yeah this post about sums it up for me really. The Warden and Hawke are capable of doing some messed up things as well. If I can forgive all those others I can forgive Anders too. But that is just me..


Oh top. And I have only 1 screenshot of only Anders on photobucket atm. So here it is.

Modifié par cmessaz, 10 août 2011 - 08:34 .

[esper]

cmessaz wrote...

Tidra wrote...

TBH...many of the characters in DA2 have done some pretty terrible things whether they meant to or not. Merrill was only trying to restore parts of her history, but it led to Marethari dying because she wanted to protect her (and it can lead to wiping out the whole clan if you pick the wrong option)...Isabela has the whole Qunari thing which led to many innocent deaths and political turmoil, Fenris killed a whole tribe of Fog Warriors which isn't seen in game but it still happened. Even in DA:O Zevran is like, an assassin..killed PLENTY of people. Sten killed a whole family, Leilana was a bard that has probably killed some innocents in her time as well...

Anders is a whole different story apparently. Honestly, I think mostly all of it has to do with the fact that he blows up a building. People see buildings blown up and their minds instantly go "TERRORIST." They also have this warped view of Grand Cleric Elthina as if she actually was a mediator or did her job, which she didn't. By not stopping the growing hostilities between Meredith and Orsino it was inevitable something like this was going to occur even if Anders hadn't blown up the Chantry (the symbol of Mage Oppression).

Elthina didn't do her job, and Meredith continued to pressure the Mages - her oppressive antics probably began to be imitated by many the Templars under her charge as well. We could say Alrik was just a nutjob who wanted to turn all Mages Tranquil, which he was, but look at who is leading him. Another nutjob that has no desire but to inspire fear in all the Mages she comes across. She allowed Mages to be turned Tranquil who had already passed their Harrowing, and even clicking on random Mages in the Gallows reveals really creepy dialogue about how they can't even talk to anyone or they'll get beat. No wonder they were all turning to blood magic (which has A LOT to do with how thin the veil is in Kirkwall according to codex entries) This stuff went on for years without Elthina doing a damn thing because she is apparently just a sweet little old priest who is going to pray to the Maker to make everything better. Give me a freaking break. >.>

Am I saying Anders was justified in killing her or the other people in the Chantry? No, not at all. But why do all these other companions in the Dragon Age series get a free pass on all the people they've murdered?

Yeah this post about sums it up for me really. The Warden and Hawke are capable of doing some messed up things as well. If I can forgive all those others I can forgive Anders too. But that is just me..


Oh top. And I have only 1 screenshot of only Anders on photobucket atm. So here it is.

I love the DA2 character because of their flaws, because they do both wrong and right, and honestly I too feel like I considering what my Hawke and my warden does, I doesn't have the right to jugde. Hawke certainly isn't high justive in Kirkwall neither is she objective.  

Modifié par esper, 10 août 2011 - 08:44 .

[cmessaz]

Totally! And yes I really do see Anders flaws. Friendly he really pissed off my Snark Queen mage in Act 3. But that makes it dramatic and fun. Plus after the final battle when they have their big fight...much making up will follow.

[Nilfalasiel]

Tidra wrote...

TBH...many of the characters in DA2 have done some pretty terrible things whether they meant to or not. Merrill was only trying to restore parts of her history, but it led to Marethari dying because she wanted to protect her (and it can lead to wiping out the whole clan if you pick the wrong option)...Isabela has the whole Qunari thing which led to many innocent deaths and political turmoil, Fenris killed a whole tribe of Fog Warriors which isn't seen in game but it still happened. Even in DA:O Zevran is like, an assassin..killed PLENTY of people. Sten killed a whole family, Leilana was a bard that has probably killed some innocents in her time as well...

(snip)

Am I saying Anders was justified in killing her or the other people in the Chantry? No, not at all. But why do all these other companions in the Dragon Age series get a free pass on all the people they've murdered?

This. People usually love Sten, and yet, they just seem to gloss over the fact that he murdered an entire family who had helped him out...because of a panic attack? I know I'm oversimplifying, and that his sword meant much more to him than just a sword, but still. He impulsively slaughtered a bunch of innocent people, even if he realised afterwards that what he did was wrong. By contrast, Anders had an actual cause to back him up and it took him years to come to the conclusion that there was simply no other way. Not saying it was a good decision, but the amount of double standardising going on all over the place is, frankly, astonishing.

I singled Sten out here because his is the most striking example from DAO. Zevran also admits that there was collateral damage involved in some of his missions, but he usually gets a somewhat similar treatment to Anders, if a good deal less vehement (plenty of people boasting about how they "slit the sleazy, traitorous elf's throat").

But yes, of course, Fenris and Isabela are also guilty as charged. And I also stare in disbelief whenever I see people saying things like "how could anybody be mean to Merrill? she's too damn cute!" 

I'm wondering if the reaction would've been less violent if Anders had poisoned the entire Chantry staff. Or gone around stabbing them à la Altaïr or Ezio. I think the visual symbol of the explosion is what really pushed people's buttons. 

[cmessaz]

Nilfalasiel wrote...
I'm wondering if the reaction would've been less violent if Anders had poisoned the entire Chantry staff. Or gone around stabbing them à la Altaïr or Ezio. I think the visual symbol of the explosion is what really pushed people's buttons. 

You know, I've never really thought about that but I think you are right. 

Modifié par cmessaz, 10 août 2011 - 09:19 .

[esper]

Nilfalasiel wrote...

Tidra wrote...

TBH...many of the characters in DA2 have done some pretty terrible things whether they meant to or not. Merrill was only trying to restore parts of her history, but it led to Marethari dying because she wanted to protect her (and it can lead to wiping out the whole clan if you pick the wrong option)...Isabela has the whole Qunari thing which led to many innocent deaths and political turmoil, Fenris killed a whole tribe of Fog Warriors which isn't seen in game but it still happened. Even in DA:O Zevran is like, an assassin..killed PLENTY of people. Sten killed a whole family, Leilana was a bard that has probably killed some innocents in her time as well...

(snip)

Am I saying Anders was justified in killing her or the other people in the Chantry? No, not at all. But why do all these other companions in the Dragon Age series get a free pass on all the people they've murdered?

This. People usually love Sten, and yet, they just seem to gloss over the fact that he murdered an entire family who had helped him out...because of a panic attack? I know I'm oversimplifying, and that his sword meant much more to him than just a sword, but still. He impulsively slaughtered a bunch of innocent people, even if he realised afterwards that what he did was wrong. By contrast, Anders had an actual cause to back him up and it took him years to come to the conclusion that there was simply no other way. Not saying it was a good decision, but the amount of double standardising going on all over the place is, frankly, astonishing.

I singled Sten out here because his is the most striking example from DAO. Zevran also admits that there was collateral damage involved in some of his missions, but he usually gets a somewhat similar treatment to Anders, if a good deal less vehement (plenty of people boasting about how they "slit the sleazy, traitorous elf's throat").

But yes, of course, Fenris and Isabela are also guilty as charged. And I also stare in disbelief whenever I see people saying things like "how could anybody be mean to Merrill? she's too damn cute!" 

I'm wondering if the reaction would've been less violent if Anders had poisoned the entire Chantry staff. Or gone around stabbing them à la Altaïr or Ezio. I think the visual symbol of the explosion is what really pushed people's buttons. 

The bolded part so much. I also think it is the fact that it a bomb and a religous building which many (not all) apparently associate with a church.
I never liked Sten, but that is because he pushed my feminist buttom. The moment he was like. Women don't fight, he was on my black list. Generally though I think people gloss over the qunari because they are... I don't know: Cool? I really think that the qun are a terrible religion, and no one I know would like to submit to it.

[cmessaz]

People see a church full of innocents instead of a political power (yes a religous one) that is in control of both the Circle and the Templar order.

[esper]

I could never see Elthina as innocenct, she is my single most hated character, and I can't figure out if she is:
A) Truly as political stupid as she acts.
Afraid of conflicts.
C) So comfortable in her seat of power that she isn't willing to do anything that could rock it.
D) A political master mind that gets Petrice to do her dirty job and hopes Hawke and Meridith kills each other.

I am personally leaning towards c.

[cmessaz]

esper wrote...

I could never see Elthina as innocenct, she is my single most hated character, and I can't figure out if she is:
A) Truly as political stupid as she acts.
Afraid of conflicts.
C) So comfortable in her seat of power that she isn't willing to do anything that could rock it.
D) A political master mind that gets Petrice to do her dirty job and hopes Hawke and Meridith kills each other.

I am personally leaning towards c.

As I play, I tend to lean C as well. Really I started disliking her when I took Ser Alrick's papers to her and she was far more concerned that the butthole was murdered than what he wanted to do.

I think she supported Meredith, but didn't want to say so publicly because she'd get a lot of people angry. In her complacency, she fed the whole thing. Also no one can tell me she had no control over Meredith...that stare down in Act 3 then Meredith leaves with her tail firmly tucked lol.

[KnightofPhoenix]

esper wrote...

I could never see Elthina as innocenct, she is my single most hated character, and I can't figure out if she is:
A) Truly as political stupid as she acts.
Afraid of conflicts.
C) So comfortable in her seat of power that she isn't willing to do anything that could rock it.
D) A political master mind that gets Petrice to do her dirty job and hopes Hawke and Meridith kills each other.

I am personally leaning towards c.

Leaning towards A, which is my opinion with pretty much everyone involved.

[cmessaz]

Oh it's kop I could probably have guessed that would be your response LOL.

[Giggles_Manically]

My issue was more then the bombing of the CHANTRY.

It was seeing the derbies and fires landing all over the damn city.
Plus having a dad who studies weapons and their application for a living really did not help my view on that.

Bombs are nasty innacurate weapons that dont tell between innocent and foe.
It was used for SHOCK effect which they are good at doing. i.e. the bombing of Hiroshima.

What with the noble's homes being right across the street, and flaming giant rocks landing all over the place... no it was not something I support.

In the end the attack I cant support since I know that many innocent people were killed by it who had nothing to do at all with Chantry or mages or templars.

But as much as I think the attack was over the top and murderous I do give Anders points for knowing EXACTLY how to use a bomb to get shock effect.

[cmessaz]

NM 

Modifié par cmessaz, 10 août 2011 - 09:44 .

[esper]

cmessaz wrote...

esper wrote...

I could never see Elthina as innocenct, she is my single most hated character, and I can't figure out if she is:
A) Truly as political stupid as she acts.
Afraid of conflicts.
C) So comfortable in her seat of power that she isn't willing to do anything that could rock it.
D) A political master mind that gets Petrice to do her dirty job and hopes Hawke and Meridith kills each other.

I am personally leaning towards c.

As I play, I tend to lean C as well. Really I started disliking her when I took Ser Alrick's papers to her and she was far more concerned that the butthole was murdered than what he wanted to do.

I think she supported Meredith, but didn't want to say so publicly because she'd get a lot of people angry. In her complacency, she fed the whole thing. Also no one can tell me she had no control over Meredith...that stare down in Act 3 then Meredith leaves with her tail firmly tucked lol.

I noticed doing the final fight that Meridith calls Elthina friend - of course Meridiths is a loony by that point.
Given that Hawke is the only person who can talk with the qunari and those got to have some politcal protection I wish Hawke could tell her: I was the one who killed Alrik, because he was two second away from tranquilising and raping a young girl. What are you going to do about it?
I really, really tried to provoke her to take a side, even if it was against Hawke (I knew it would be against Hawke), but the most I can get out of her is: You flame the embers of war....
Urrgh... 

[cmessaz]

Yeah I tried too. I mean I can totally see the templar side in this whole thing...even if I don't agree. In truth I personally actually blame a lot on Elthina. She should have stepped in imo on either side.

[esper]

I got so frustrated that I in my first playthrough actually felt relieved when the chantry went boom. I felt like, now nobody could pretend it is all allright when it wasn't allright. Then I felt guilty for feeling relieved and then I panicked because everybody demanded to know what I wanted to do with Anders and I hadn't considered it yet.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I'd agree that it's the bomb-thing that does it for most people. When I suggest things like, say, having Zevran assassinate either Elthina or Meredith, frame some jerk (preferably another Crow that Zev lures to Kirkwall), and have the champion rush in to capture the "criminal" and bring justice to the city... people don't object as much. It's definitely the knee-jerk reaction to the method and their perception of the target.

I've pointed out before that both my having-Zev-stab-them method and the bomb method would both count as "terrorism," as would Hawke just walking up to Meredith and killing her randomly at some point. Any illegal or quasi-legal action that makes people afraid can pretty much be called terrorism, that's why the word is so useless. The thing is... people don't think of things like a Zev assassination or a Hawke attacking someone as terrorism, because it doesn't fit their preconceived notions of what terrorism looks like, ie: explosions.

Now, did the bomb do more collateral damage than either of those other options would have? Yes it did. I don't think Anders even really knew what the power of the device was going to be before he set it off, he says as much if I recall. That's bad and unfortunate, but understandable, especially considering what he had to achieve.

I don't think he's looking for the conventional "shock" as we think of it in modern times. Rather, he's trying to make a symbolic gesture that will draw attention to his cause, while taking out a significant political figure for the opposition. The messages he's trying to send are:

The Circle Fails: when it is at its most draconian, mages will be at their most desperate
It Can Happen to You: Kirkwall was horrible for everyone, and there's no reason other KCs couldn't go similarly insane at any time, and there would be nothing anyone could do about it short of blowing a chantry.
We Can Fight it: the Templars can be opposed in significant ways.
Now is the Time: If we're going to make a move, we must do so all at once. Ready steady go!

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 10 août 2011 - 09:49 .

[Sinaxi]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

My issue was more then the bombing of the CHANTRY.

It was seeing the derbies and fires landing all over the damn city.
Plus having a dad who studies weapons and their application for a living really did not help my view on that.

Bombs are nasty innacurate weapons that dont tell between innocent and foe.
It was used for SHOCK effect which they are good at doing. i.e. the bombing of Hiroshima.

What with the noble's homes being right across the street, and flaming giant rocks landing all over the place... no it was not something I support.

In the end the attack I cant support since I know that many innocent people were killed by it who had nothing to do at all with Chantry or mages or templars.

But as much as I think the attack was over the top and murderous I do give Anders points for knowing EXACTLY how to use a bomb to get shock effect.

Well...I mean, obviously the Chantry is the best place for a bomb shock attack. Like...he's not going to blow up the Gallows. I know people say it wasn't "tactically" a correct move for a bomb, but the Templars don't have their own little base. They pretty much stick around the Gallows guarding the Mages or they are in the Chantry. The Chantry = The symbol of oppression for all Mages. They are a political force as well as a religion, and technically Elthina is in charge of Meredith but like I said she doesn't do her job. So she technically was a tactical target. But really it is the symbol of the Chantry being destroyed that makes the point so extreme.

Also, while it does show fires reaching other places on the screen (which only seemed to be the tops of buildings)- we don't actually know if anyone was injured outside of the Chantry grounds. During the Qunari attack like...ALL of Kirkwall was randomly set on fire even though it never showed the Qunari doing that lol. I'm sure other people were probably hurt, but technically the priests in the Chantry could be regarded as innocent so...I mean innocent people were already dying when that bomb exploded. Just like innocent Mages were already dying.

Modifié par Tidra, 10 août 2011 - 09:51 .

[SurelyForth]

I think most of the city on fire is actually looters, which we encounter on the way to the Gallows.

[Sinaxi]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
Now, did the bomb do more collateral damage than either of those other options would have? Yes it did. I don't think Anders even really knew what the power of the device was going to be before he set it off, he says as much if I recall. That's bad and unfortunate, but understandable, especially considering what he had to achieve.
 

Huh, I'm not sure I've ever heard him say anything like in relation to the bomb. o.O I mean he hardly talks about it at all when you're doing the Justice quest and I don't recall anything like that in the Last Straw...if he actually did refer to that at some point I'd appreciate knowing when or like a video or something lol.

[SurelyForth]

@Tidra I think he says something like "I didn't think it would be like this." which could be taken a couple of ways. Either he wasn't expecting the damage to the city to be so extensive (either from his bombs or the looters) or he wasn't expecting for the city to be full of apostates and demons.

[Giggles_Manically]

I dont give a rat's flying ass about the Chantry.
Its a power base same as the Viscount's office.

What I do care about is people ignoring the fact that a massive bomb leveled a building, hurled debris across an entire city, started fires, and more than likely took more lives then what happened in the Chantry alone.

I care a thousand times more for the people with no connection the the Chantry, mages, or templars who get caught in the cross fire.
The same people who are peripheral to Anders it seems.

[esper]

I agree with your analysis CGG, but the have Zev stab Elthina and frame someone else would be stepping all over and important part of Anders' point I think, and important part of his point is after all. It was him who did it, not the Kirkwall circle and no mage is safe when a circle can get annulled for an outsiders' crime.

[cmessaz]

He says "this is worse than I expected" once but IDK if he meant the damage by the bomb or just the battle in general. It's ambient.

[KnightofPhoenix]

If I felt Anders was qualified and had some semblance of sanity and knowledge of what he was really doing for the long run, I wouldn't have mind if he killed hundreds, or thousands of innocents (except in this specific issue, doing that is pretty stupid).