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[miraclemight]

I was hoping for a quest which would give you the chance to unmerge Justice and Anders. kill Justice, 'un-demon' Justice, or give him the opportunity to merge with Hawke for either gaining power or helping him become more peaceful like Awakening.

And out of all those possibilities, not even one of them happened in the game... A shame really. I used to like that spirit in Awakening.

[cmessaz]

LOL un-demon I like that.

[Hill-Hurwitz]

miraclemight wrote...

I was hoping for a quest which would give you the chance to unmerge Justice and Anders. kill Justice, 'un-demon' Justice, or give him the opportunity to merge with Hawke for either gaining power or helping him become more peaceful like Awakening.

And out of all those possibilities, not even one of them happened in the game... A shame really. I used to like that spirit in Awakening.

Killing Justice isn't an option, we can't Take a Third Option like Conner, simply because the JAnders merger is completely unlike the typical spirit possession. The only thing remotely comparable is Wynne/Faith, and by her own admission, Wynne worries whether she could be called an abomination or not. The Warden can choose to console her that if "she retains her humanity" this isn't the case.

Seperating the two of them is admirable and probably the best for them, but at this point, it's like taking a bit of red playdough and blue playdough, that's been squished together and trying to sort the two colors out. Even if you get most of it, bits are going to remain mixed up. What gets misplaced? What gets lost? Both colors are irrevocably altered regardless.

I think the best you could hope for is, as people have already mentioned in this thread, is a kind of talk therapy for both Anders and Justice. They have serious anger issues, which Anders always used to deflect, and Justice has never had to deal with before. Decrease the rage, increase the dialogue, and you've got a good chance at Anders and Justice finding harmony.

They made this merger, only they can make it work. But Hawke can certainly be there to help them figure it out.

Modifié par Hill-Hurwitz, 11 août 2011 - 11:29 .

[miraclemight]

From what I've read in the codex, Janders is becoming more Justice and less Anders as time passes by. To use your own comparion, it seems like the situation is adding more red paste to the whole mix. And that's the whole demon/un-demon'ing thing I was talking about. If this had been Mass Effect, I assmue there would have been a renegade option to urge Justice to "Take over Anders because he's not doing enough for the cause. mwhahah!"

Modifié par miraclemight, 11 août 2011 - 11:38 .

[berelinde]

Only on the rival path. For what that's worth. Some people's playing styles make that the only path they'll get. No condemnation there. It's there for a reason, and there are NPCs who I will only ever be able to rival because of my playing style.

[cmessaz]

Yeah there are a few I will mostly rival, but I actually do it different each Hawke I play. Overall, my preferred play through is pro mage, which really means I mostly rival Fen and Sebastian, and friend Anders. Merril I actually only really friend with my blood mage. Isabela for some reason I'm to chicken **** to rival...

I really do like the friend/rival system though. It means I can disagree with them but we are mostly still buddies.

[Hill-Hurwitz]

I don't play rivalmance, but as berelinde said, and the videos I've watched, what happens with their merger is very different. I know some expressed the wish that Anders was able to separate the issues of pro/anti mage and pro/anti merger, but his merger with Justice is part of the package. If he had resigned himself, like Wynne and other mages did to the Circle, he likely would never have joined the Wardens, met Justice, and made the merger - as he fears after Ella, he's the example of the worst mages could do with their freedom. So when you're making him doubt the cause, you're making him doubt himself... doubt Justice, and when he's forcefully pushing the spirit away, trying to make a division that can't hold, Justice pushes back. Eventually, Justice overwelms. But in this situation, both of them lose.

Modifié par Hill-Hurwitz, 11 août 2011 - 11:54 .

[cmessaz]

@ Hill-Hurwitz - yeah, I agree.

I believe the rival-romance destroys Anders, I've done it twice. It was totally freaking heartbreaking. And since I personally believe in his cause it was really hard for me to do, but I did it.

[berelinde]

cmessaz wrote...

@ Hill-Hurwitz - yeah, I agree.

I believe the rival-romance destroys Anders, I've done it twice. It was totally freaking heartbreaking. And since I personally believe in his cause it was really hard for me to do, but I did it.

Yeah, I know what you mean. I did the rivalmance for science and it broke my heart. One of these days, I'm going to have to, though. If only because I want those two achievements you get for siding with the templars.Dammit. Why did my earlier betrayal playthrough have to get lost in my computer crash?

[cmessaz]

berelinde wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

@ Hill-Hurwitz - yeah, I agree.

I believe the rival-romance destroys Anders, I've done it twice. It was totally freaking heartbreaking. And since I personally believe in his cause it was really hard for me to do, but I did it.

Yeah, I know what you mean. I did the rivalmance for science and it broke my heart. One of these days, I'm going to have to, though. If only because I want those two achievements you get for siding with the templars.Dammit. Why did my earlier betrayal playthrough have to get lost in my computer crash?

HA! That is totally why I did it twice!

My next rival is going to wind up changing her mind in Act 3. That should be fun

[Sinaxi]

miraclemight wrote...

From what I've read in the codex, Janders is becoming more Justice and less Anders as time passes by. To use your own comparion, it seems like the situation is adding more red paste to the whole mix. And that's the whole demon/un-demon'ing thing I was talking about. If this had been Mass Effect, I assmue there would have been a renegade option to urge Justice to "Take over Anders because he's not doing enough for the cause. mwhahah!"

Yeah. I disagree with this. He devotes more to his cause on each path but that is kind of expected given that things keep getting increasingly worse in Kirkwall as time goes on and therefore Anders is getting more and more worried about it - hence the increased paranoia.

Anders really loses himself on the rivalry path - where him and Justice split into pretty much two different people as I like to think of it since Anders can no longer even remember when Justice takes over unlike how he used to & still does on friendship. Trying so hard to fight against Justice in rivalry path only makes things worse for Anders, leads to depression, further loss of control, and overall breaks his very essence as a person because pretty much everyone around him is making him feel like crap for ever merging with Justice in the first place and he basically becomes a shell of a person.

I don't view him the same way at all on friendship, where he and Justice I truly believe are much more "together" or "one" or "merged" whatever you want to call it. He has felt supported with his decision, and has learned that Justice is something he has to live with and cannot just wish away or put into a little corner of his mind and hope it gets better. They are one person on friendship, whereas I view them as two people on rivalry - if you can even call Anders a person at that point in rivalry because he is so extremely broken as an individual if you end up siding with Templars and force him to help you.

But, whatever. People have varying points of view on Anders & Justice's situation. Many of them think he is completely "insane" and just too far gone no matter what. Yes, he is written to be like a bipolar character - though those are simply the real life examples that Hepler used to demonstrate his merging with Justice. So could you classify him as mentally ill? Yes, I would assume so. Do I think on friendship path he is completely nuts and has absolutely no shreds of sanity left? No. He seems quite aware of it is he is doing, and why he is doing it. He seems quite happy and ready to fight Templars if you allow him, and still seems very dedicated to his cause and I think he would remain dedicated after leaving Kirkwall. If anything, getting out of Kirkwall and fighting for what he believes in would make him more sane...not less.

Modifié par Tidra, 12 août 2011 - 12:31 .

[Melca36]

[quote]cmessaz wrote...


[/quote]
I'm under the impression that there is an expansion in the works, but it's all rumor at this point. I've also heard that the next DLC will be Sebastian-centric. Idk what is true and what isn't at this point. But there is at least more DLC coming.

[/quote]

More DLC is in the works at least and hopefully this rumored Sebastian-Centric DLC gives us the chance to KILL him. Its only fair:devil:

[berelinde]

[quote]Melca36 wrote...

[quote]cmessaz wrote...


[/quote]
I'm under the impression that there is an expansion in the works, but it's all rumor at this point. I've also heard that the next DLC will be Sebastian-centric. Idk what is true and what isn't at this point. But there is at least more DLC coming.

[/quote]

More DLC is in the works at least and hopefully this rumored Sebastian-Centric DLC gives us the chance to KILL him. Its only fair:devil:

[/quote]
Yeah, I totally hope that we get that opportunity. It is only fair. In all honesty, I suspect that the default "import" condition if you haven't actually played the Exiled Prince DLC is that Sebastian will be an adversary. Or at least I hope that's the case.

[cmessaz]

I can't get that lucky

[berelinde]

Gah. I hope this doesn't mean that I'll have to play through Acts 2 and 3 with Choir-Boy just so I get the chance to kill him properly. Maybe if you let Anders live, you'll get an angry Sebastian by default?

[cmessaz]

berelinde wrote...

Gah. I hope this doesn't mean that I'll have to play through Acts 2 and 3 with Choir-Boy just so I get the chance to kill him properly. Maybe if you let Anders live, you'll get an angry Sebastian by default?

Luckily, I had been trying to fully Rival and Friend him recently. I like to do that before making an official opinion of a character, so I'm good. So far I've only managed to fully rival.

[berelinde]

cmessaz wrote...

berelinde wrote...

Gah. I hope this doesn't mean that I'll have to play through Acts 2 and 3 with Choir-Boy just so I get the chance to kill him properly. Maybe if you let Anders live, you'll get an angry Sebastian by default?

Luckily, I had been trying to fully Rival and Friend him recently. I like to do that before making an official opinion of a character, so I'm good. So far I've only managed to fully rival.

I had a collection of saves with him in it, but then my computer crashed, and now I've got to play through the game again. I absolutely loathe how much Sebastian steals the spotlight in one of the most emotionally charged moments in the game with his selfish demand for vengeance, so I was thinking that for my canon playthrough, I would just leave him in the Chantry and never talk to him. With any luck, he would die with Elthina, but I am rarely that lucky. So I'm hoping that just letting Anders live will mean that he comes back to haunt Hawke without any need to recruit him at all.

[LT123]

If it is a Sebastian DLC, I wonder if we'll play as him (similar to Leliana's Song) or as Hawke.

On rivalry:

I like both paths, and I think what I like about the rivalry path is actually getting to argue with Anders. How often do you actually get to do that with a love interest?

Anomen, no (Ha. And trying to ended in him presumably stomping off and definitely ending the relationship). With Carth there was quite a bit of back-and-forth banter and insult-throwing, but I don't remember getting to actually throw down over the massive revelation. Sky would hate your guts in Jade Empire if you bound  your companions' souls, but that was more of a "Don't talk to me; don't touch me; go die in a fire" conversation. Other than that, no arguing.

Kaidan was pretty mellow. It's been a while since I played through Mass Effect, and I haven't played the sequel, so I can't talk about Horizon.

You could fight with Alistair over killing Isolde/Conner and could also apologize (!) if you were a jerk in the "Oh, by the way, I'm Maric's son" conversation. And if you screw up while talking to him about the ritual, he shuts you down hard and walks off. Trying to argue with him on the roof if you're romancing him is just sad.

But with Anders, we get an awesome fight after the Justice quest, complete with Hawke being wonderfully snarky ("Probably not by saying, 'Great, let's go."), Anders being obstinate ("Impossible!") and both sides trying really hard to convince the other that they're wrong.

And the whole path is Hawke going, "Look at what you're doing to yourself. You're going about this the wrong way."



Or maybe I'm just a sucker for arguing with NPCs.

[Addai]

Tidra wrote...

Anders really loses himself on the rivalry path - where him and Justice split into pretty much two different people as I like to think of it since Anders can no longer even remember when Justice takes over unlike how he used to & still does on friendship. Trying so hard to fight against Justice in rivalry path only makes things worse for Anders, leads to depression, further loss of control, and overall breaks his very essence as a person because pretty much everyone around him is making him feel like crap for ever merging with Justice in the first place and he basically becomes a shell of a person.

I don't view him the same way at all on friendship, where he and Justice I truly believe are much more "together" or "one" or "merged" whatever you want to call it. He has felt supported with his decision, and has learned that Justice is something he has to live with and cannot just wish away or put into a little corner of his mind and hope it gets better. They are one person on friendship, whereas I view them as two people on rivalry - if you can even call Anders a person at that point in rivalry because he is so extremely broken as an individual if you end up siding with Templars and force him to help you.

*puzzled*  You think he's no longer a person if he retains his will?

[cmessaz]

berelinde wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

berelinde wrote...

Gah. I hope this doesn't mean that I'll have to play through Acts 2 and 3 with Choir-Boy just so I get the chance to kill him properly. Maybe if you let Anders live, you'll get an angry Sebastian by default?

Luckily, I had been trying to fully Rival and Friend him recently. I like to do that before making an official opinion of a character, so I'm good. So far I've only managed to fully rival.

I had a collection of saves with him in it, but then my computer crashed, and now I've got to play through the game again. I absolutely loathe how much Sebastian steals the spotlight in one of the most emotionally charged moments in the game with his selfish demand for vengeance, so I was thinking that for my canon playthrough, I would just leave him in the Chantry and never talk to him. With any luck, he would die with Elthina, but I am rarely that lucky. So I'm hoping that just letting Anders live will mean that he comes back to haunt Hawke without any need to recruit him at all.

Hey...how does that play out when he's not present? 


@LT123..yeah I do like the rival romance but I do NOT like the rival ending. I prefer to side with mages at the end.

Modifié par cmessaz, 12 août 2011 - 01:25 .

[Sepewrath]

lol that is some seething hate.

[berelinde]

cmessaz wrote...
Hey...how does that play out when he's not present? 

It's a lot more obvious that Anders was goading Meredith to declare the Rite of Anulment without due authorization, for one thing. It's pretty much just 1) Chantry explodes 2) Meredith says "Grand Cleric killed by magic! I declare the Rite of Annulment!" 3) spare/kill Anders 4) Get on with the game.

[cmessaz]

berelinde wrote...

cmessaz wrote...
Hey...how does that play out when he's not present? 

It's a lot more obvious that Anders was goading Meredith to declare the Rite of Anulment without due authorization, for one thing. It's pretty much just 1) Chantry explodes 2) Meredith says "Grand Cleric killed by magic! I declare the Rite of Annulment!" 3) spare/kill Anders 4) Get on with the game.

I'll really miss the XP and the quests...but is there a way to disable DLC without uninstalling it? I kinda wanna see how it goes.

[berelinde]

cmessaz wrote...
I'll really miss the XP and the quests...but is there a way to disable DLC without uninstalling it? I kinda wanna see how it goes.

Sure, you can just not recruit Sebastian. Ignore his quest flags from Act 2 onward and never talk to him at all. He won't be in the Chantry when it goes up, so his fate is uncertain, but you won't have to listen to him in the Last Straw, either.

Edit: And I can confirm that it works as I state because I've played through it that way. You still get the quest flags and the prompts to go to the Chantry in your journal, but you can ignore them, if you would rather skip the Sebastian DLC content.

The added bonus is that you don't have to deal with Leliana, either.

Modifié par berelinde, 12 août 2011 - 01:47 .

[cmessaz]

berelinde wrote...

cmessaz wrote...
I'll really miss the XP and the quests...but is there a way to disable DLC without uninstalling it? I kinda wanna see how it goes.

Sure, you can just not recruit Sebastian. Ignore his quest flags from Act 2 onward and never talk to him at all. He won't be in the Chantry when it goes up, so his fate is uncertain, but you won't have to listen to him in the Last Straw, either.

Oh!!! I think I might do this just once, I wanna see.