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[highcastle]

MG800 wrote...

So, rival vs friend again?
I'll throw some cents: on the friendship patch, we support Anders cause, so he automatically starts to think of the merger as a "sacrifice that was worth it". Justice wins, he wins. Now, he doesn't fight with Justice, it's a partnership - but hypothetically if he did try, just out of blue - do you think he would win? He doesn't "control" Justice. He's agreeing with him - that's different. See, he doesn't have to be completely aware of his influence and his effects on him. And consequences. Merger erased them both, and made a completely new being - on rivalry, or friendship it's not a human anymore. Now, before anyone say "no", that doesn't mean nothing of what's human left - it only means that technicly we're dealing now with a non-human being.
What is different: on friendship, he sees Justice as beneficial, and work with him - if we would propose to un-merge him, he would disagree, and let himself become a Janders - how much of human is in, is disputable.
On rivalry he see Justice as poisonous, and fight with it - it's a lost cause.
There isn't a good or bad approach - there is approach you, yourself feel better with. It's what suits you - because either way he can be lost.
Now that I think about it's a bit like lycantrophy - where Justice in this paralell would become his bloodlust. If we'll convince him to accept himself, and fight with bad guys with all he is - he's going to lose himself. Or he's going to lose himself fighting with what he became, full of self-loathing, and focusing on it, which doesn't really benefit anyone.

I agree with this mostly. On friendship, as awful as it sounds, there is a loss of who Anders used to be. But the same is true on the rival path. The moment Anders let Justice inside him, he changed himself forever (as he said). He's Janders now. I don't know if I'd go as far as to say he's not human (as Justice himself is pretty humanized by his experiences in the real world, even if he still doesn't get it completely), but that's another discussion entirely, and I'm fighting really hard to keep from bringing Philip K. Dick and his "what makes us human" ideas into play here.

Edit for Top:

By the wonderful payroo. That's young!Anders being carted off by templars.

Modifié par highcastle, 12 août 2011 - 02:09 .

[Mekarah]

highcastle wrote...

I agree with this mostly. On friendship, as awful as it sounds, there is a loss of who Anders used to be. But the same is true on the rival path. The moment Anders let Justice inside him, he changed himself forever (as he said). He's Janders now. I don't know if I'd go as far as to say he's not human (as Justice himself is pretty humanized by his experiences in the real world, even if he still doesn't get it completely), but that's another discussion entirely, and I'm fighting really hard to keep from bringing Philip K. Dick and his "what makes us human" ideas into play here.

Since I love Phillip K Dick and issues of what makes us human in general (I've mostly argued on behalf of robots but I suppose I can alter that), I say stop fighting.

[YamiSnuffles]

Here's the way I see it. Anders and Justice merge before DA2. Through friendship, Hawke encourages this merger and they work together harmoniously toward a common cause. Anders isn't better suppressing Justice in friendship than rivalry. Aside from Ella, he's not fighting Justice at all because he doesn't have to. At the same time, Justice isn't "taking over" Anders- at least not anymore than Anders is doing the same to Justice. They become something new. Through this, Anders gains more strength and conviction. At the same time, he loses some of the compassion that was so core to him because he is willing to do whatever it takes to get things done (which is not to say he doesn't feel bad about it or something, but he is willing to do terrible things that he might never have done otherwise).

On the other side you have rivalry. Hawke emphasizes that the merger with Justice was unnatural so Anders should fight it. Of course, there's really not much he can do at this point. He still wants to free mages, so he's not at a constant struggle with Justice. However, sometimes Anders doubts himself and doubts his cause; that's when Justice has to take over and continue on. There is a sort of mental barrier between the two of them. They're in a power struggle for control of the body and try to block each other out completely. So, while they don't magically unmerge through being rivaled, they're more individual. Of course, what these individuals are is a bit questionable. Anders is a changed man in this path as much as in friendship. He's less convinced that his cause is right. This means he's not willing to destroy innocent lives just to advance his own cause. It also mean, though, that he has very little left to fight for. The desire for freedom that was so central to him for so long has been eroded away. The only thing he has left is a struggle to keep in control and that's a struggle he's not winning because Justice is strong.

As for Justice, in rivalry he seems angrier because he has to actively fight to get things done. Justice/Vengeance might be completely the same on friendship or rivalry since he still wants to do the same things, but the way Anders views them at least changes. Since he no longer wants what Justice wants, he sees Justice as something of a monster. Whereas in friendship, he owns up to everything being something that he wants and that he did, including the bombing. So, to me, it doesn't seem like there is much change to Justice between friendship and rivalry. Most of what changes is how Anders perceives him. There is also a difference in how Justice seems to see Hawke.

Modifié par YamiSnuffles, 12 août 2011 - 01:48 .

[MG800]

highcastle wrote...

I agree with this mostly. On friendship, as awful as it sounds, there is a loss of who Anders used to be. But the same is true on the rival path. The moment Anders let Justice inside him, he changed himself forever (as he said). He's Janders now. I don't know if I'd go as far as to say he's not human (as Justice himself is pretty humanized by his experiences in the real world, even if he still doesn't get it completely), but that's another discussion entirely, and I'm fighting really hard to keep from bringing Philip K. Dick and his "what makes us human" ideas into play here.

Philosophical concept of human - I wouldn't mind discussing it, but yes, that's a diffrent story. But it seems like good place and tme, so...

[highcastle]

Mekarah wrote...

highcastle wrote...

I agree with this mostly. On friendship, as awful as it sounds, there is a loss of who Anders used to be. But the same is true on the rival path. The moment Anders let Justice inside him, he changed himself forever (as he said). He's Janders now. I don't know if I'd go as far as to say he's not human (as Justice himself is pretty humanized by his experiences in the real world, even if he still doesn't get it completely), but that's another discussion entirely, and I'm fighting really hard to keep from bringing Philip K. Dick and his "what makes us human" ideas into play here.

Since I love Phillip K Dick and issues of what makes us human in general (I've mostly argued on behalf of robots but I suppose I can alter that), I say stop fighting.

Lol, well if I'm going to go ahead and have permission... 

Obviously the book that PKD is most famous for with regards to this idea (what makes us human) is Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep. More people know it from the movie, Blade Runner, which--while a terrific film I enjoy on its own merits--strays from a book in many key ways. In the book, Dick makes a big deal about animals being rare and it becoming a mark of status for humans to own and care for real, live creatures instead of robotic simulacrum. In fact, the tests humanity has devised for telling whether one person is an android or not is to determine whether they have any compassion for animals.

So how does this apply to Anders and Justice? Well, the animal part is less important (though you could probably bring Anders and his love of cats into play here), I think the compassion part is where PKD saw our humanity. If a robot (or anything) can feel sympathy or mercy for something else, than that's a linchpin in its humanity.

Now, Justice at first glance doesn't come across as very compassionate. He almost kills that girl during Dissent (and in some cases succeeds), and he has no mercy for templars. However, it's his sympathy for the mages' plight that leads him to merging with Anders in the first place. There's also the matter of the Hawke/Anders romance (if pursued, of course). Justice might not approve of the relationship, but he doesn't seem to actively prevent it. He never pops out during the romance scenes at any rate. Why not? If he dislikes it and he thinks Anders is wasting his time, why not try to change things? This is speculation, but I'd guess it has to do with some affection and compassion for Anders and his needs and desires.

[MG800]

highcastle wrote...

Lol, well if I'm going to go ahead and have permission... 

Obviously the book that PKD is most famous for with regards to this idea (what makes us human) is Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep. More people know it from the movie, Blade Runner, which--while a terrific film I enjoy on its own merits--strays from a book in many key ways. In the book, Dick makes a big deal about animals being rare and it becoming a mark of status for humans to own and care for real, live creatures instead of robotic simulacrum. In fact, the tests humanity has devised for telling whether one person is an android or not is to determine whether they have any compassion for animals.

So how does this apply to Anders and Justice? Well, the animal part is less important (though you could probably bring Anders and his love of cats into play here), I think the compassion part is where PKD saw our humanity. If a robot (or anything) can feel sympathy or mercy for something else, than that's a linchpin in its humanity.

Now, Justice at first glance doesn't come across as very compassionate. He almost kills that girl during Dissent (and in some cases succeeds), and he has no mercy for templars. However, it's his sympathy for the mages' plight that leads him to merging with Anders in the first place. There's also the matter of the Hawke/Anders romance (if pursued, of course). Justice might not approve of the relationship, but he doesn't seem to actively prevent it. He never pops out during the romance scenes at any rate. Why not? If he dislikes it and he thinks Anders is wasting his time, why not try to change things? This is speculation, but I'd guess it has to do with some affection and compassion for Anders and his needs and desires.

Might as well be, that he's curious himself. He was a pretty curious being back in Amaranthine - the thing is, it somehow... ceased to be after merging with Anders. Or he's still the same Justice - he just won't talk to us.
He has now a purpose, fact, but he had one, when we travelled with him as a Warden-Commander - and it didn't stopped him from asking questions. Or having desires and obsessions.
Is Justice a demon? A human? Curiosity, want and survival instinct is very human - but also he isn't suppoused to have them. Maybe we should do as Merril suggested: throw the "bad spirit" term into the trash. Still, he isn't your common spirit being, "as was written".
Ok, I'll stop ranting.

Edit:One thing: even if he's not curious himself(thought that's hard to belive in), wanting Anders to be happy, is a desire. So that might be a clear link between DAA Justice DA2 Justice. Other then boomy voice and being fixeted about something, I mean.

Modifié par MG800, 12 août 2011 - 02:49 .

[Mekarah]

In the same line, can we really consider Anders human? I ask this without the idea that any answer is right or wrong. I was in a class about artificial intelligence, and we were posed with the question of when do you stop being human. For example, if I were to have one of my brain cells changed out with a robotic one (super technical, that's me), would you still consider me human? Probably. But how many would I have to get changed out before you'd start to change your mind?

In the same vein, when does a "possessed" mage become not human? Does it matter if the spirit in them is "humanzing," or if they retain their humanity themselves? Or are they just immediately inhuman the minute it happens?

As for my opinion...I think was makes someone "human" is more than just bone and flesh, so while Anders is certainly a different TYPE of human, I wouldn't say he's not human at all. But then again I'm a big ol' robot sympathizer so that's not an unexpected viewpoint.

ETA: Perhaps "human" is the incorrect term, or too loaded a term. "Alive" ...no. I'm having trouble coming up with a word that means what I mean without taking on something else but, I hope my point makes sense.

Modifié par Mekarah, 12 août 2011 - 03:14 .

[MG800]

Mekarah wrote...

In the same line, can we really consider Anders human? I ask this without the idea that any answer is right or wrong. I was in a class about artificial intelligence, and we were posed with the question of when do you stop being human. For example, if I were to have one of my brain cells changed out with a robotic one (super technical, that's me), would you still consider me human? Probably. But how many would I have to get changed out before you'd start to change your mind?

In the same vein, when does a "possessed" mage become not human? Does it matter if the spirit in them is "humanzing," or if they retain their humanity themselves? Or are they just immediately inhuman the minute it happens?

As for my opinion...I think was makes someone "human" is more than just bone and flesh, so while Anders is certainly a different TYPE of human, I wouldn't say he's not human at all. But then again I'm a big ol' robot sympathizer so that's not an unexpected viewpoint.

Technicly he isn't. Just technicly, because that's right, human being is more then flesh and bone. 
About what makes one a human: i think compassion is barking at the wrong door. There are people who can still be considered as humans, but they lack this particular feature.
Love and doubt is more likely. Love is a pure and selfish feeling, capable of making someone to endure harships and sacrifice a lot for it - robot or "spirit" as they're described couldn't possibly know it. Robot follows a scheme. Spirit knows only a virtue/desire.
Doubt - robots and spirits don't know it either - they're not programmed this way. It requires the ability of abstract thinking.

Anders is a human, by this desciption. But Anders is slowly losing himself, so at one point or another, we won't be able to consider him as such. And here is a place for a wild theories about what will happen to him after Kirkwall.  We probably won't  get any clear answer, so it'll remain free for fan interpration - because it's more "fun" this way.

Modifié par MG800, 12 août 2011 - 03:27 .

[Taihsigva]

MG800 wrote...

Might as well be, that he's curious himself. He was a pretty curious being back in Amaranthine - the thing is, it somehow... ceased to be after merging with Anders. Or he's still the same Justice - he just won't talk to us.
He has now a purpose, fact, but he had one, when we travelled with him as a Warden-Commander - and it didn't stopped him from asking questions. Or having desires and obsessions.
Is Justice a demon? A human? Curiosity, want and survival instinct is very human - but also he isn't suppoused to have them. Maybe we should do as Merril suggested: throw the "bad spirit" term into the trash. Still, he isn't your common spirit being, "as was written".
Ok, I'll stop ranting.

Edit:One thing: even if he's not curious himself(thought that's hard to belive in), wanting Anders to be happy, is a desire. So that might be a clear link between DAA Justice DA2 Justice. Other then boomy voice and being fixeted about something, I mean.

I think we see a lack of curiosity about the mortal world in DA2 because, for lack of a better way of putting it, by merging with a living human, Justice gets the answers to his questions. Justice was an observer of Kristoff's memories, a spirit seeing but not actually living 'human' experience, whereas JAnders is directly experiencing emotions, the world, etc. It kind of reminds me of Merrill's comment about how the Fade is like another culture like Orzammar. When Justice is trapped in the mortal world, it's like he's studying another country, a different people's customs, and when he merges with Anders, there's not a need to study anymore, because all these aspects of mortal culture become integrated into his subconscious.

Mekarah wrote...

In the same line, can we really consider
Anders human? I ask this without the idea that any answer is right or
wrong. I was in a class about artificial intelligence, and we were posed
with the question of when do you stop being human. For example, if I
were to have one of my brain cells changed out with a robotic one (super
technical, that's me), would you still consider me human? Probably. But
how many would I have to get changed out before you'd start to change
your mind?

In the same vein, when does a "possessed" mage become
not human? Does it matter if the spirit in them is "humanzing," or if
they retain their humanity themselves? Or are they just immediately
inhuman the minute it happens?

As for my opinion...I think was
makes someone "human" is more than just bone and flesh, so while Anders
is certainly a different TYPE of human, I wouldn't say he's not human at
all. But then again I'm a big ol' robot sympathizer so that's not an
unexpected viewpoint.

For me part of the question of humanity is what different groups are being compared when one talks about being 'human'. Like, in the case of other sapient alien species (or in this case, Fade entities), are we talking about the borders of 'human' being 'the defining (psychological/social) characteristics that separate these two different species'? That's... I guess a different way of considering the 'what makes a human' question than if you're looking at a human/robot dichotomy where debate centres more on 'artificial-ness' (which I take issue with, but that's neither here nor there).

Or is it really all that different? It's still about defining traits in both cases, though the location of the traits people pose tend to be different... I don't know, I'm confusing myself now.

But I guess part of where I'm having trouble is in seeing exactly where humans and spirits(/demons) differ, exactly, other than in their... I'll guess I'll just call it biology. I'm not sure what categorical psychological differences there are between the two. Human, in the broader sense, hinges for me on metacognition, on consciousness (but then again I come out of this from a comparative cognition perspective, so yeah).

So depending on how/whether Anders changed physically, I suppose strictly speaking he isn't human, but outside of looking at things like cells and DNA and biological functioning, I'd say there isn't a point where possessed mages stop being human in the broader sense. Unless a particular case of possession renders the person in question unable to think about their thoughts/behaviours/emotions anymore.

[MG800]

Taihsigva wrote...

MG800 wrote...

Might as well be, that he's curious himself. He was a pretty curious being back in Amaranthine - the thing is, it somehow... ceased to be after merging with Anders. Or he's still the same Justice - he just won't talk to us.
He has now a purpose, fact, but he had one, when we travelled with him as a Warden-Commander - and it didn't stopped him from asking questions. Or having desires and obsessions.
Is Justice a demon? A human? Curiosity, want and survival instinct is very human - but also he isn't suppoused to have them. Maybe we should do as Merril suggested: throw the "bad spirit" term into the trash. Still, he isn't your common spirit being, "as was written".
Ok, I'll stop ranting.

Edit:One thing: even if he's not curious himself(thought that's hard to belive in), wanting Anders to be happy, is a desire. So that might be a clear link between DAA Justice DA2 Justice. Other then boomy voice and being fixeted about something, I mean.

I think we see a lack of curiosity about the mortal world in DA2 because, for lack of a better way of putting it, by merging with a living human, Justice gets the answers to his questions. Justice was an observer of Kristoff's memories, a spirit seeing but not actually living 'human' experience, whereas JAnders is directly experiencing emotions, the world, etc. It kind of reminds me of Merrill's comment about how the Fade is like another culture like Orzammar. When Justice is trapped in the mortal world, it's like he's studying another country, a different people's customs, and when he merges with Anders, there's not a need to study anymore, because all these aspects of mortal culture become integrated into his subconscious.

-snip-

See, that's exactly what popped in my mind. But, the curious intelligent being doesn't just stop asking questions, just because he got some answers. Actually, he should ask more questions, then before. The thing is: he probably, if he does, is directing them to Anders. But it didn't seem so, since Anders is wrapped in the "mage mage mage" buisness and never tries to talk about anything else. Or if he does, we don't get to see this.

It probably links to Anders suffering - Justice sees it, thinks, that there are more people that can be the same way, and swores revange, so he's unable to think about anything else.
Seeing the suffering of the people who had their family killed by darkspawn, or the unlucky ones turned into ghoules/broodmothers is one thing - living in the head of a man - prisoner of the Circle, witness of everything that's bad in it - is another. 
There's no escape when you're living in someone's head, feeling their thoughts as your own, their emotions as your own - and Justice is an active spirit, he goes, and fixes things.

Modifié par MG800, 12 août 2011 - 03:57 .

[esper]

Taihsigva wrote...

MG800 wrote...

Might as well be, that he's curious himself. He was a pretty curious being back in Amaranthine - the thing is, it somehow... ceased to be after merging with Anders. Or he's still the same Justice - he just won't talk to us.
He has now a purpose, fact, but he had one, when we travelled with him as a Warden-Commander - and it didn't stopped him from asking questions. Or having desires and obsessions.
Is Justice a demon? A human? Curiosity, want and survival instinct is very human - but also he isn't suppoused to have them. Maybe we should do as Merril suggested: throw the "bad spirit" term into the trash. Still, he isn't your common spirit being, "as was written".
Ok, I'll stop ranting.

Edit:One thing: even if he's not curious himself(thought that's hard to belive in), wanting Anders to be happy, is a desire. So that might be a clear link between DAA Justice DA2 Justice. Other then boomy voice and being fixeted about something, I mean.

I think we see a lack of curiosity about the mortal world in DA2 because, for lack of a better way of putting it, by merging with a living human, Justice gets the answers to his questions. Justice was an observer of Kristoff's memories, a spirit seeing but not actually living 'human' experience, whereas JAnders is directly experiencing emotions, the world, etc. It kind of reminds me of Merrill's comment about how the Fade is like another culture like Orzammar. When Justice is trapped in the mortal world, it's like he's studying another country, a different people's customs, and when he merges with Anders, there's not a need to study anymore, because all these aspects of mortal culture become integrated into his subconscious.

Mekarah wrote...

In the same line, can we really consider
Anders human? I ask this without the idea that any answer is right or
wrong. I was in a class about artificial intelligence, and we were posed
with the question of when do you stop being human. For example, if I
were to have one of my brain cells changed out with a robotic one (super
technical, that's me), would you still consider me human? Probably. But
how many would I have to get changed out before you'd start to change
your mind?

In the same vein, when does a "possessed" mage become
not human? Does it matter if the spirit in them is "humanzing," or if
they retain their humanity themselves? Or are they just immediately
inhuman the minute it happens?

As for my opinion...I think was
makes someone "human" is more than just bone and flesh, so while Anders
is certainly a different TYPE of human, I wouldn't say he's not human at
all. But then again I'm a big ol' robot sympathizer so that's not an
unexpected viewpoint.

For me part of the question of humanity is what different groups are being compared when one talks about being 'human'. Like, in the case of other sapient alien species (or in this case, Fade entities), are we talking about the borders of 'human' being 'the defining (psychological/social) characteristics that separate these two different species'? That's... I guess a different way of considering the 'what makes a human' question than if you're looking at a human/robot dichotomy where debate centres more on 'artificial-ness' (which I take issue with, but that's neither here nor there).

Or is it really all that different? It's still about defining traits in both cases, though the location of the traits people pose tend to be different... I don't know, I'm confusing myself now.

But I guess part of where I'm having trouble is in seeing exactly where humans and spirits(/demons) differ, exactly, other than in their... I'll guess I'll just call it biology. I'm not sure what categorical psychological differences there are between the two. Human, in the broader sense, hinges for me on metacognition, on consciousness (but then again I come out of this from a comparative cognition perspective, so yeah).

So depending on how/whether Anders changed physically, I suppose strictly speaking he isn't human, but outside of looking at things like cells and DNA and biological functioning, I'd say there isn't a point where possessed mages stop being human in the broader sense. Unless a particular case of possession renders the person in question unable to think about their thoughts/behaviours/emotions anymore.

Spirit and demons seem to... sapiant (spelling) beings who in the demons are individualized and have their own uniqe feelings. I think their thought process is different than humans, but it is definitly there. Desire demons for example have very different personalities.
As for Anders, well... on friendship path he doesn't think like a normal human does, because his thoughts are mixed up with Justice's, but that doesn't make him unhuman - just different and slightly  more difficult for us 'normal' (I highly doubt anyone would call me normal) humans to understand. As for what he is - a hybrid being I guess... All abomination seems to be. Evelina or Uldred comes to my mind. They seems like a fusion of two personalities as well. 

[Addai]

Tidra wrote...
Well, if you think that practically nothing of Anders exists anymore then why care whether or not he supposedly holds onto that through rivalry?

I don't, really.  Before playing the game through, I thought it might be possible to exorcise Justice, but since it's not, the two paths are essentially the same, only a matter of what flavor of madness.

I say he retains more of his self on rivalry because if they really were "fused" completely- there would be no conflict to begin with.  I take Anders at his word when he says "he is no longer my friend" and that he wants to control him.  Just giving in to a spirit inhabiting your body- that is repugnant to me.

Someone said killing him on rivalry is a kindness- I really think killing him is a kindness no matter what.  The end of this story should've been the Warden showing up while he's drinking the blood of templars, saying "I am so sorry this happened to you," then running a sword through him.  That's a story I would probably have wept for.  As it is, it all kind of leaves me cold.

Modifié par Addai67, 12 août 2011 - 03:49 .

[MG800]

Addai67 wrote...

Tidra wrote...
Well, if you think that practically nothing of Anders exists anymore then why care whether or not he supposedly holds onto that through rivalry?

I don't, really.  Before playing the game through, I thought it might be possible to exorcise Justice, but since it's not, the two paths are essentially the same, only a matter of what flavor of madness.

I say he retains more of his self on rivalry because if they really were "fused" completely- there would be no conflict to begin with.  I take Anders at his word when he says "he is no longer my friend" and that he wants to control him.  Just giving in to a spirit inhabiting your body- that is repugnant to me.

Someone said killing him on rivalry is a kindness- I really think killing him is a kindness no matter what.  The end of this story should've been the Warden showing up while he's drinking the blood of templars, saying "I am so sorry this happened to you," then running a sword through him.  That's a story I would probably have wept for.  As it is, it all kind of leaves me cold.

That's assuming a lot. Agreed at the fusing though - he wasn't fully merged, because it was a recent event. He didn't knew if it was a right thing to do - he only wanted to believe so. And because of his uncartainty, we can force our opinion on him - and since it's crucial, he's changing.

About sticking sword in the back, as a kindness - if we want to talk about what would make him happy, there you have it. But I refuse to kill anyone who could be useful later. I doubt he could be salvaged - If he's strong enough, and make it so far, sure - but he went through some serious **** after all.

Modifié par MG800, 12 août 2011 - 04:26 .

[Sinaxi]

Addai67 wrote...

Tidra wrote...
Well, if you think that practically nothing of Anders exists anymore then why care whether or not he supposedly holds onto that through rivalry?

I don't, really.  Before playing the game through, I thought it might be possible to exorcise Justice, but since it's not, the two paths are essentially the same, only a matter of what flavor of madness.

I say he retains more of his self on rivalry because if they really were "fused" completely- there would be no conflict to begin with.  I take Anders at his word when he says "he is no longer my friend" and that he wants to control him.  Just giving in to a spirit inhabiting your body- that is repugnant to me.

Someone said killing him on rivalry is a kindness- I really think killing him is a kindness no matter what.  The end of this story should've been the Warden showing up while he's drinking the blood of templars, saying "I am so sorry this happened to you," then running a sword through him.  That's a story I would probably have wept for.  As it is, it all kind of leaves me cold.

Okay. Well. If you're going to bring up that he says "he is no longer my friend" I will once again point out that Anders mentions this for the times when Justice fully emerges, where he turns into "Vengeance" and says like I had pointed out before that it has a lot to do with his emotional state since he specifically mentions his anger.

• "I guess I had too much anger, once he was inside me he changed."
• "It's not like that, he's gone now - he's part of me. It's not like we can have a conversation. I feel his thoughts as my own. Not even the greatest scholar can tell you where I end and he begins."
• "But my anger, when I see Templars now - things that have always outraged me..but I could never do anything about. He comes out, and he is no longer my friend Justice, he is a force of Vengeance and he has no grasp of mercy.

If you don't care either way, why exactly are we having this conversation?

"Just giving in to a spirit inhabiting your body- that is repugnant to me." - Well I can say that deserting your son-in-law to die on the battlefield without so much as breaking a sweat, poisoining Eamon, trying to assume control of the kingdom, sending assassins after the Grey Wardens, and allying yourself with Rendon Howe while Elves are being sold into slavery under your very watch is also "repugnant" to me.

[esper]

I can understand Loghain retreating from the battle at Ostagar, poisoining Eamon, trying to assume control of the kingdom and sending assassins after the Grey Warden... But the selling elves to slaves I just can't get past.

[cmessaz]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Oh, no. Please no Loghain debates. They go on forever and ever and ever.

Uhuh...ever go in the old Alistair thread? They can get nasty.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

If someone came up to me today and said "I can offer you the power to achieve international equal rights for women; all you have to do is give up everything that you are, become something new and different and inhuman... but you can win this fight for good and for all." I'd probably do it, if I had any reason to believe the offer was sincere and non-malevolent.

I mean, everything that I am... that seems like so little to give up. On a universal scale, that's nothing... and I like me!

I'd almost say that the person who wouldn't sacrifice something as small and insignificant as their humanity in order to make the lives of billions of people better is the monster. But that's me. I'm weird.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 12 août 2011 - 04:53 .

[Addai]

Tidra wrote...

Okay. Well. If you're going to bring up that he says "he is no longer my friend" I will once again point out that Anders mentions this for the times when Justice fully emerges, where he turns into "Vengeance" and says like I had pointed out before that it has a lot to do with his emotional state since he specifically mentions his anger.

Right, but... humans have emotions.  So having a spirit inside of you that starts killing people when you get angry, that can't be a good thing.

If you don't care either way, why exactly are we having this conversation?

Because I was curious why you said he loses himself more on rivalry than on friendship, when I had always seen it in the reverse.  Sorry if my curiosity sounds like a flame, or something.

"Just giving in to a spirit inhabiting your body- that is repugnant to me." - Well I can say that deserting your son-in-law to die on the battlefield without so much as breaking a sweat, poisoining Eamon, trying to assume control of the kingdom, sending assassins after the Grey Wardens, and allying yourself with Rendon Howe while Elves are being sold into slavery under your very watch is also "repugnant" to me.

Er... irrelevant?  I guess you don't really want to discuss the subject, so.. nvm.

Modifié par Addai67, 12 août 2011 - 04:55 .

[esper]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

If someone came up to me today and said "I can offer you the power to achieve international equal rights for women; all you have to do is give up everything that you are, become something new and different and inhuman... but you can win this fight for good and for all." I'd probably do it.

I mean, everything that I am... that seems like so little to give up. On a universal scale, that's nothing... and I like me!

I'd almost say that the person who would not sacrifice something as small and insignificant as their humanity in order to make the lives of billions of people better is the monster. But that's me. I'm weird.

Yeah I would do it too. Espically because it is hard to comphrehend 'everything you are' and what exactly it is you are losing, so I think I would be willing to take the risk.
Also if it is a friend I trust who gave me the offer... why shouldn't I take it? 

[Addai]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

If someone came up to me today and said "I can offer you the power to achieve international equal rights for women; all you have to do is give up everything that you are, become something new and different and inhuman... but you can win this fight for good and for all." I'd probably do it, if I had any reason to believe the offer was sincere and non-malevolent.

I mean, everything that I am... that seems like so little to give up. On a universal scale, that's nothing... and I like me!

I'd almost say that the person who wouldn't sacrifice something as small and insignificant as their humanity in order to make the lives of billions of people better is the monster. But that's me. I'm weird.

"All you have to do is kill lots and lots of people and impose your will on a few million more..."

Modifié par Addai67, 12 août 2011 - 04:55 .

[cmessaz]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

If someone came up to me today and said "I can offer you the power to achieve international equal rights for women; all you have to do is give up everything that you are, become something new and different and inhuman... but you can win this fight for good and for all." I'd probably do it, if I had any reason to believe the offer was sincere and non-malevolent.

I mean, everything that I am... that seems like so little to give up. On a universal scale, that's nothing... and I like me!

I'd almost say that the person who wouldn't sacrifice something as small and insignificant as their humanity in order to make the lives of billions of people better is the monster. But that's me. I'm weird.

Agreed.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

"All you have to do is kill lots and lots of people and impose your will on a few million more..."

That wasn't the offer. 'Nor is it what's going to happen, necessarily. Unless someone makes it that way out of spite.

Varric actually says in his epilogue that the circles rose up due to the inspiration provided by the events in Kirkwall, rather than stating that war happened for some other reason. I know he's not 100% reliable, but until I see something contradicting that, I'm going to theorize that the mages took what happened in Kirkwall as an object lesson, and made their own choices based on it.

But we shall see.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 12 août 2011 - 04:58 .

[esper]

But that is not what the offer says... The offer says 'giving yourself up' not killing everyone in sight. And this is a friend that you know and trust. For such a thing as equal right for women which I really believe in... I would do it.

[congealeddgtllvr]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

If someone came up to me today and said "I can offer you the power to achieve international equal rights for women; all you have to do is give up everything that you are, become something new and different and inhuman... but you can win this fight for good and for all." I'd probably do it, if I had any reason to believe the offer was sincere and non-malevolent.

I mean, everything that I am... that seems like so little to give up. On a universal scale, that's nothing... and I like me!

I'd almost say that the person who wouldn't sacrifice something as small and insignificant as their humanity in order to make the lives of billions of people better is the monster. But that's me. I'm weird.

But you're missing the most important part. . . which is that you'd be a fool to believe them.