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[Addai]

esper wrote...

But that is not what the offer says... The offer says 'giving yourself up' not killing everyone in sight. And this is a friend that you know and trust. For such a thing as equal right for women which I really believe in... I would do it.

Obviously Anders didn't know what would happen when he accepted Justice's offer, but just going along with him equals exactly what I said.

If I fault Anders for anything in his decision to meld with Justice, it's that he should have known that would not end well.  It's Mage 101.  It's what the Harrowing exists for, to teach mages not to be lured by the offers of demons.  Even if he had any doubt about whether what he was doing was the same as accepting such an offer from a demon, he should have said "no, sorry."  It was stupid.  Good-hearted, and exacerbated by the Wardens' (sudden, inexplicable) capitulation to the templars, but still really stupid.

[SurelyForth]

I was under the impression that spirits were not warned about in the Circles. After all, Spirit Healers depend on, um, spirits to do what they do. It seems like the fact that it's fine for a mage to work in concord with a spirit to that end, considering that there's little but the mage's own willpower to prevent possession should the spirit want to possess, indicates that it is not, in fact, Mage 101.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 12 août 2011 - 05:14 .

[cmessaz]

SurelyForth wrote...

I was under the impression that spirits were not warned about in the Circles. After all, Spirit Healers depend on, um, spirits to do what they do. It seems like the fact that it's fine for a mage to work in concord with a spirit to that end, considering that there's little but the mage's own willpower to prevent possession should the spirit want to possess, indicates that it is not, in fact, Mage 101.

Seems to me the Circles talk alot about demons, Anders at one point states that they clearly break down into sins or something like that.  Not saying that he shouldn't have known better, but Justice isn't a demon, and he is someone he came to know...so to me it's a bit...different. But thats just me.

[esper]

Anders is a devout Andrastian in his own way. He really believes that the spirits are the Maker's first children.

[congealeddgtllvr]

SurelyForth wrote...

I was under the impression that spirits were not warned about in the Circles. After all, Spirit Healers depend on, um, spirits to do what they do. It seems like the fact that it's fine for a mage to work in concord with a spirit to that end, considering that there's little but the mage's own willpower to prevent possession should the spirit want to possess, indicates that it is not, in fact, Mage 101.

Circle mages do not let themselves get possessed.  Wynne was freaked out enough by it to hide it from people and have that "would you say I'm an abomination?" talk with the Warden.

The Dalish do not even distinguish between spirits and demons, and I'd say they're right.  Merrill calls Anders dumb for thinking otherwise and allowing himself to be possessed in one of their banters.  It's pretty funny that Anders is more naive than Merrill about something, and pretty sad.  

[cmessaz]

Don't really hear Merril call Anders dumb, just pointing out his hypocrisy. That is a bit...different. Clearly the Dalish teachings are better than the Circles.

Modifié par cmessaz, 12 août 2011 - 05:27 .

[highcastle]

Addai67 wrote...

Tidra wrote...
Well, if you think that practically nothing of Anders exists anymore then why care whether or not he supposedly holds onto that through rivalry?

I don't, really.  Before playing the game through, I thought it might be possible to exorcise Justice, but since it's not, the two paths are essentially the same, only a matter of what flavor of madness.

I say he retains more of his self on rivalry because if they really were "fused" completely- there would be no conflict to begin with.  I take Anders at his word when he says "he is no longer my friend" and that he wants to control him.  Just giving in to a spirit inhabiting your body- that is repugnant to me.

Someone said killing him on rivalry is a kindness- I really think killing him is a kindness no matter what.  The end of this story should've been the Warden showing up while he's drinking the blood of templars, saying "I am so sorry this happened to you," then running a sword through him.  That's a story I would probably have wept for.  As it is, it all kind of leaves me cold.

Stepped away from the computer for a bit, but I rather wanted to address this point. The killing being a kindness, part, anyway.

See, here's where it comes to how you view Janders. Other brought up the is-Anders-human-anymore question. If you think killing him is a kindness, I have to assume you think the answer to that question is a resounding no. Which is rather sad. Anders might not be the same person he was before, but I never thought his humanity was in question. He still loves, hates, has compassion and jealously; he still feels. People can argue over the nature of humanity all they want, but most tend to agree that some measure of feelings and sentience are crucial components. Anders has both. He's also possessed, but I don't think he's any less human for it.

And that's where the rivalry and friendship crux lies, in my opinion. Do you think the life Anders has now--mingled with a Fade spirit--is still a life worth living? I happen to believe it is. I don't think it's for us--or Hawke--to decide Anders' humanity, or to judge him somehow less human than anyone else and therefore acceptable kill. Killing him for his crimes...well, that gets us into a different argument (capital punishment), but killing him because it somehow spares him from being a monster...no, I don't think that's valid. Anders might believe at times, but he's not the most stable source. And the fact he believes it shows him capable of guilt and remorse, two more emotions that seem to cement him as human in my book.

[congealeddgtllvr]

cmessaz wrote...

Don't really hear Merril call Anders dumb, just pointing out his hypocrisy. That is a bit...different. Clearly the Dalish teachings are better than the Circles.

Oh she definitely thinks he's dumb.  In another banter she calls her relationship with her demon "strictly platonic" in a sardonic way.  She doesn't see a difference between being possessed by Audacity the demon and Justice the spirit, and she is right.  

[cmessaz]

congealeddgtllvr wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

Don't really hear Merril call Anders dumb, just pointing out his hypocrisy. That is a bit...different. Clearly the Dalish teachings are better than the Circles.

Oh she definitely thinks he's dumb.  In another banter she calls her relationship with her demon "strictly platonic" in a sardonic way.  She doesn't see a difference between being possessed by Audacity the demon and Justice the spirit, and she is right.  

You thinking he is dumb does NOT = her thinking he is dumb...I don't get that impression from Merril at all.

[congealeddgtllvr]

cmessaz wrote...

You thinking he is dumb does NOT = her thinking he is dumb...I don't get that impression from Merril at all.

Merrill:  ALL spirits are dangerous, Anders.  I realized that, I'm sorry you didn't.

That quote = "I have no intention of getting possessed, not by a 'demon,' nor a 'spirit.'  You were unwise to do so."  

[cmessaz]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Allowing a spirit to possess him was a foolish thing to do, but Anders is clearly not an entirely rational person even before the merger. No one sits a year in solitary confinement and keeps a good mental health.

I definately won't argue that it was a good decision lol. It wasn't but...I don't see Anders as the complete moron that some people do..just someone who made a mistake. I see Merril the same way.

congealeddgtllvr wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

You thinking he is dumb does NOT = her thinking he is dumb...I don't get that impression from Merril at all.

Merrill:  ALL spirits are dangerous, Anders.  I realized that, I'm sorry you didn't.

That quote = "I have no intention of getting possessed, not by a 'demon,' nor a 'spirit.'  You were unwise to do so."  

OH! Well I guess I'm wrong. CLEARLY she is calling him dumb there.

Modifié par cmessaz, 12 août 2011 - 05:40 .

[Aeowyn]

congealeddgtllvr wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

I was under the impression that spirits were not warned about in the Circles. After all, Spirit Healers depend on, um, spirits to do what they do. It seems like the fact that it's fine for a mage to work in concord with a spirit to that end, considering that there's little but the mage's own willpower to prevent possession should the spirit want to possess, indicates that it is not, in fact, Mage 101.

Circle mages do not let themselves get possessed.  Wynne was freaked out enough by it to hide it from people and have that "would you say I'm an abomination?" talk with the Warden.

The Dalish do not even distinguish between spirits and demons, and I'd say they're right.  Merrill calls Anders dumb for thinking otherwise and allowing himself to be possessed in one of their banters.  It's pretty funny that Anders is more naive than Merrill about something, and pretty sad.  

I saw that at her being freaked out because she knew that the Templars would not see it the same way as the Mages did. For Templars, it's a possession, no matter what.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

congealeddgtllvr wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

Don't really hear Merril call Anders dumb, just pointing out his hypocrisy. That is a bit...different. Clearly the Dalish teachings are better than the Circles.

Oh she definitely thinks he's dumb.  In another banter she calls her relationship with her demon "strictly platonic" in a sardonic way.  She doesn't see a difference between being possessed by Audacity the demon and Justice the spirit, and she is right. 

I disagree, and I am the first to cry "the Dalish know everything!" and "The Dalish are always right!" or even "Honestly, the Dalish should be running this place." 

Here's the rhertorical problem you're having here: you're saying that the Dalish believe that being posessed by a demon and posessed by a spirit is the same thing, and then you go on to imply that has some connection to the chantry idea that all possession is a bad thiing, You're mixing your philosophies here pretty badly.

The Elves used to spend all their time in the fade. Decades, even centuries maybe, and they considered it nothing more than a foreign country, like Ozrammar. The people living there weren't inherently good or evil, they were just a different people. Like any people, there are nice people and there are jerks in the world of the fade. That's Merril's point... that you need to judge spirits individually and then decide whether or not it's safe to trust them, rather than blanket trusting all spirits of one type and blanket condemning all spirits of another type.

Wynne's spirit of faith is obviously pretty nice. We've also met demons on various different parts of the 'evil' scale. All spirits are dangerous because all spirits are powerful and not-like-us... but that doesn't mean they're all bad, or that working with one is always a bad idea. You just have to go into it knowing that if you go beyond a platonic relationship, you're in for some pretty big personal changes. That's what Merril is chiding Anders about. It's like chiding someone about having unprotected sex... you might not think that sex is inherently wrong and evil, but the way that person did it was kind of stupid.

[congealeddgtllvr]

Aeowyn wrote...

I saw that at her being freaked out because she knew that the Templars would not see it the same way as the Mages did. For Templars, it's a possession, no matter what.

Sure.  But my point is that she obviously thought it was a very strange occurrence and didn't really know what to make of it.  So this does not suggest to me that the circle teaches "spirit abominations good, demon abominations bad."  

[CulturalGeekGirl]

congealeddgtllvr wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

I saw that at her being freaked out because she knew that the Templars would not see it the same way as the Mages did. For Templars, it's a possession, no matter what.

Sure.  But my point is that she obviously thought it was a very strange occurrence and didn't really know what to make of it.  So this does not suggest to me that the circle teaches "spirit abominations good, demon abominations bad."  

The thing is, the Chantry is the one that teaches that Spirits are good, and the maker's first children. So the stupidity of Andrasteism strikes again, apparently? If you think it was a bad idea, that is.

[cmessaz]

The point is I doubt the Circle even really teaches about spirit possession considering it doesn't seem that common.

Edit: What CGG said

Modifié par cmessaz, 12 août 2011 - 05:47 .

[congealeddgtllvr]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Here's the rhertorical problem you're having here: you're saying that the Dalish believe that being posessed by a demon and posessed by a spirit is the same thing, and then you go on to imply that has some connection to the chantry idea that all possession is a bad thiing, You're mixing your philosophies here pretty badly.

I implied that connection in my own thinking, not Merrill's or the Dalish's.  

Wynne's spirit of faith is obviously pretty nice. We've also met demons on various different parts of the 'evil' scale. All spirits are dangerous because all spirits are powerful and not-like-us... but that doesn't mean they're all bad, or that working with one is always a bad idea. You just have to go into it knowing that if you go beyond a platonic relationship, you're in for some pretty big personal changes. That's what Merril is chiding Anders about. It's like chiding someone about having unprotected sex... you might not think that sex is inherently wrong and evil, but the way that person did it was kind of stupid.

All of which amounts to. . . Merrill calling Anders dumb.  

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Everyone should totally reject Andrasteism and go back to all the Elven Pantheon. Or, even better, back Team Old God Baby... I wonder if that kid is the "he" who will rise and bring magic back to everybody.

[congealeddgtllvr]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

The thing is, the Chantry is the one that teaches that Spirits are good, and the maker's first children. So the stupidity of Andrasteism strikes again, apparently? If you think it was a bad idea, that is.

Indeed I do think it's a stupid belief.  They are not good or bad, they simply are.  

And it's always a bad idea to join with them.  Occasionally it works out, a la Wynne.  

Modifié par congealeddgtllvr, 12 août 2011 - 05:53 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Snip for being too snippy.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 12 août 2011 - 05:53 .

[Addai]

highcastle wrote...
See, here's where it comes to how you view Janders. Other brought up the is-Anders-human-anymore question. If you think killing him is a kindness, I have to assume you think the answer to that question is a resounding no. Which is rather sad. Anders might not be the same person he was before, but I never thought his humanity was in question. He still loves, hates, has compassion and jealously; he still feels. People can argue over the nature of humanity all they want, but most tend to agree that some measure of feelings and sentience are crucial components. Anders has both. He's also possessed, but I don't think he's any less human for it.

And that's where the rivalry and friendship crux lies, in my opinion. Do you think the life Anders has now--mingled with a Fade spirit--is still a life worth living? I happen to believe it is. I don't think it's for us--or Hawke--to decide Anders' humanity, or to judge him somehow less human than anyone else and therefore acceptable kill. Killing him for his crimes...well, that gets us into a different argument (capital punishment), but killing him because it somehow spares him from being a monster...no, I don't think that's valid. Anders might believe at times, but he's not the most stable source. And the fact he believes it shows him capable of guilt and remorse, two more emotions that seem to cement him as human in my book.

Even demons feel and desire, when it comes down to it.  "I just want to be free and feed" is an appeal you hear numerous times in Origins and in DA2 with Torpor (I love Torpor, lol).  I don't consider the question "is it a life worth living," rather, "is it too dangerous to let him live?"  I think Hawke has good reasons, certainly as of Ella but even in act 1, to think he's too dangerous to be allowed to live.

I do allow Feynriel to live and go to Tevinter, and that's probably a bigger risk- but as of Night Terrors, he seems to be controlling his power and getting better at it, while Anders is going the other direction.  I can see that it would be a poignant story if Hawke loved him and couldn't bring herself to do it.  It's also convincing if you're playing a bloodthirsty sort who sees him as a useful tool to be manipulated, though he goes off the reservation in the end.  It's just more difficult to play it in the middle, where you can look at his situation dispassionately.  I can't understand why Hawke treats him so differently than other rogue mages she encounters.   I spent the game trying to help individual mages, but also trying to police the bad ones, so why my PC would not deal with Anders in similar fashion, I can't quite work out.  It makes for an unsatisfying story, for me.

[cmessaz]

I just don't see how Merril calls him dumb. I like Merril alot...I think she simply pointed out how he isn't in a place to lecture considering his situation. In fact she seemed sympathetic in the convo about spirits and demons being the same thing. The dumb thing is personal opinion being brought into the convo.

I guess this person has a TOTALLY different view of Merril than I do...a sweet but naive girl whom I love. I don't think she has a mean bone in her body...

Modifié par cmessaz, 12 août 2011 - 05:58 .

[congealeddgtllvr]

cmessaz wrote...

I just don't see how Merril calls him dumb. I like Merril alot...I think she simply pointed out how he isn't in a place to lecture considering his situation. In fact she seemed sympathetic in the convo about spirits and demons being the same thing. The dumb thing is personal opinion being brought into the convo.

I feel sympathy for many people who I think are dumb.  Merrill is a very nice person and isn't going to spell it out in so many words.  She does think he was not smart for joining with Justice, though.

Modifié par congealeddgtllvr, 12 août 2011 - 06:01 .