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[YamiSnuffles]

If Merrill thinks Anders is dumb, then she thinks she's an idiot herself. She argues with Anders over demons vs spirits because she's doing the same thing as him. He had a cause that he didn't have the strength to fight for on his own so her turned to a spirit. She has a cause (restoring Dalish history) that she couldn't accomplish on her own. She couldn't repair the mirror on her own, so she turned to a demon for help.

Since she sees demons and spirits as the same thing, she doesn't see what Anders' problem is. Anders does of course have a problem with it because he thinks demons and spirits are different. But beyond that, he sees Merrill going down the same path he did. She can talk all she wants about knowing how dangerous it is but she's doing it anyway and it does end badly, just as Anders constantly warned.

Anders did do something unwise. But it means he's now in a rather unique position to say, "Hey, don't do this. You might think you know what you're doing but you don't. You have no idea what you're getting into." Merrill might have all the intention in the world to not get possessed, but she's not doing a very good job of avoiding it. In fact, she goes into her final side quest assuming that she might very well become an abomination because of what she's doing. It's the reason she invites Hawke along.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

congealeddgtllvr wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Wynne's spirit of faith is obviously pretty nice. We've also met demons on various different parts of the 'evil' scale. All spirits are dangerous because all spirits are powerful and not-like-us... but that doesn't mean they're all bad, or that working with one is always a bad idea. You just have to go into it knowing that if you go beyond a platonic relationship, you're in for some pretty big personal changes. That's what Merril is chiding Anders about. It's like chiding someone about having unprotected sex... you might not think that sex is inherently wrong and evil, but the way that person did it was kind of stupid.

All of which amounts to. . . Merrill calling Anders dumb.

No, there's a huge difference between saying "that one thing you did was misinformed, so I'd like to give you some information because I actually do think you're smart" and calling someone dumb.

There's also a huge difference between saying something is dangerous and saying it is bad and you shouldn't deal with it. My favorite relevant quote: 

"Then he isn't safe?" said Lucy.

"Safe?" said Mr. Beaver. "Don't you hear what Mrs. Beaver tells you? Who said anything about safe? 'Course he isn't safe. But he's good."

You're reading all kind of crazy nonsense into Merril's statements, warping her nuanced view about spirits and the fade to fit your personal agenda. Merril is sad that Anders made a decision without having all the facts, because he did not have the advantage of the kind of education she had access to. If someone is raised by a group that is ignorant of certain facts does not make that person dumb. She is merely saying that the circle's teachings do not match her understanding... perhaps she is calling those teachings dumb or misinformed, but not Anders himself.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 12 août 2011 - 06:03 .

[cmessaz]

congealeddgtllvr wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

I just don't see how Merril calls him dumb. I like Merril alot...I think she simply pointed out how he isn't in a place to lecture considering his situation. In fact she seemed sympathetic in the convo about spirits and demons being the same thing. The dumb thing is personal opinion being brought into the convo.

I feel sympathy for many people I think are dumb.  Merrill is a very nice person and isn't going to spell it out in so many words.  She does think he was not smart for joining with Justice, though.

I'm not arguing THAT...Anders also thinks her decision to do blood magic is stupid. That doesn't mean he thinks SHE is stupid. You said Merril thinks he is dumb...well that would be just as hypocritical as Anders thinking she is dumb..now wouldn't it?

[MG800]

cmessaz wrote...

I just don't see how Merril calls him dumb. I like Merril alot...I think she simply pointed out how he isn't in a place to lecture considering his situation. In fact she seemed sympathetic in the convo about spirits and demons being the same thing. The dumb thing is personal opinion being brought into the convo.

I guess this person has a TOTALLY different view of Merril than I do...a sweet but naive girl whom I love. I don't think she has a mean bone in her body...

What's so bad with one character considering the other one dumb? Even if you like them both? Even Merril can be mean... ok, maybe that's a stretch. Thought, rivalry... anyway considering someone's dumb isn't a mean thing, it's called having an opinion. And nobody is that sweet to think everyone is cute, and fluffy and doing great.

Modifié par MG800, 12 août 2011 - 06:07 .

[Xilizhra]

Merrill thinks that Anders erred once. Anders thinks that Merrill is a complete idiot/monster, though not quite so badly as Fenris.

[cmessaz]

MG800 wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

I just don't see how Merril calls him dumb. I like Merril alot...I think she simply pointed out how he isn't in a place to lecture considering his situation. In fact she seemed sympathetic in the convo about spirits and demons being the same thing. The dumb thing is personal opinion being brought into the convo.

I guess this person has a TOTALLY different view of Merril than I do...a sweet but naive girl whom I love. I don't think she has a mean bone in her body...

What's so bad with one character considering the other one dumb? Even if you like them both? Even Merril can be mean... ok, maybe that's a stretch. But considering someone dumb isn't a mean thing, it's called having an opinion. And nobody is that sweet to think everyone is cute, and fluffy and doing great.

I just really don't see her thinking he is dumb is all. He was taught differently and she recognizes that. To me she would be hypocritical for it, since she converses with a demon.

And hey, if one wants to think that it's their problem.  I also agree with Merril, he shouldn't get on her but on the other hand I think he does it out of concern. And the other way around. I get the impression that Merril probably thinks the teachings of the circle are dumb..which they are.

Sorry if my post comes across wrong...I just don't agree with the dumb thing personally.

Modifié par cmessaz, 12 août 2011 - 06:14 .

[congealeddgtllvr]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

No, there's a huge difference between saying "that one thing you did was misinformed, so I'd like to give you some information because I actually do think you're smart" and calling someone dumb.

There's also a huge difference between saying something is dangerous and saying it is bad and you shouldn't deal with it. My favorite relevant quote: 

"Then he isn't safe?" said Lucy.

"Safe?" said Mr. Beaver. "Don't you hear what Mrs. Beaver tells you? Who said anything about safe? 'Course he isn't safe. But he's good."

You're reading all kind of crazy nonsense into Merril's statements, warping her nuanced view about spirits and the fade to fit your personal agenda. Merril is sad that Anders made a decision without having all the facts, because he did not have the advantage of the kind of education she had access to. If someone is raised by a group that is ignorant of certain facts does not make that person dumb. She is merely saying that the circle's teachings do not match her understanding... perhaps she is calling those teachings dumb or misinformed, but not Anders himself.

She obviously isn't saying he shouldn't deal with spirits.  She's saying he shouldn't join with them.  

I don't have an agenda.  I'm pointing out the wisdom of that aspect of the Dalish view on spirits, and pointing out how Anders could have benefited from it.  I have not read about the Dalish willingly joining with spirits they "get to know" the way some Rivainis are said to, and I'm not sure they would condone it.  

I didn't mean that Merrill was trying to insult Anders' intelligence, just that that specific decision was dumb.  

And yes, I agree with all the people saying Merrill is wrong about blood magic.  It's a rare case of me agreeing with Anders.  

Modifié par congealeddgtllvr, 12 août 2011 - 06:13 .

[Xilizhra]

It's worth pointing out that Merrill never actually caused any harm with anything she did.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

And I don't think she's saying don't join with them. She's saying know the risks of joining with them. There is a universe of difference there.

If Anders had known the risks, he might have done it somewhere away from everyone, allowed himself a healing and coping period, and not done it somewhere where people were immediately going to stab him when they found out.

She never says anything that explicitly implies "don't join with spirits." She says "know the risks" and likens the relationship to sex. For me, that's akin to saying "do it in private, and only with someone you trust. And be safe."

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 12 août 2011 - 06:16 .

[congealeddgtllvr]

Xilizhra wrote...

Merrill thinks that Anders erred once. Anders thinks that Merrill is a complete idiot/monster, though not quite so badly as Fenris.

Which is so funny since Anders is literally. . . a monster, while Merrill has taken careful steps not to become one.  

[SurelyForth]

Xilizhra wrote...

It's worth pointing out that Merrill never actually caused any harm with anything she did.

Only because Marethari took the demon? Had she not done that, who knows what could have happened. 

And is Anders a monster? Really? It seems to me that a monster wouldn't give a **** about anything but its own desires, and Anders is willing to put his own desires aside for his cause. 

Modifié par SurelyForth, 12 août 2011 - 06:23 .

[esper]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

And I don't think she's saying don't join with them. She's saying know the risks of joining with them. There is a universe of difference there.

If Anders had known the risks, he might have done it somewhere away from everyone, allowed himself a healing and coping period, and not done it somewhere where people were immediately going to stab him when they found out.

She never says anything that explicitly implies "don't join with spirits." She says "know the risks" and likens the relationship to sex. For me, that's akin to saying "do it in private, and only with someone you trust. And be safe."

Also a good comparison because Merrill uses the word platonic. Obviously (and with good reason) she doesn't trust Auducity enough to go anywhere beyound the platonic level. I always thought that Merrill wants Hawke to come along because Auducity properly will demand to be let out of the statue to help her further., and while Merrill doesn't want to let Auducity free, she is not sure that the demon can't fog her mind (like in Night Terror) and trick/force her into doing it.

[Xilizhra]

SurelyForth wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It's worth pointing out that Merrill never actually caused any harm with anything she did.

Only because Marethari took the demon? Had she not done that, who knows what could have happened. 

I'm fairly certain that Marethari, being both more powerful and less experienced with demons, was the demon's target all along and that the Eluvian thing was a red herring.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Anyone ever read the Monster of the Year? It's a Bruce Coville novel where all the famous movie monsters compete while this kid tries to figure out who is the most monstrous. It's out of print now, but they end up deciding the biggest monster is the woman who wants to ban monster movies.

It's pretty great.

Also, I hear that there's a monster at the end of this book. Guys, I'm scared. Should I finish reading it?

I have not slept in a very long time.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 12 août 2011 - 06:23 .

[leggywillow]

Xilizhra wrote...
I'm fairly certain that Marethari, being both more powerful and less experienced with demons, was the demon's target all along and that the Eluvian thing was a red herring.

Why do you assume that Marethari is less experienced with demons than Merrill?  She's a Keeper and a mage and a great, great deal older than Merrill.  I would assume that she has quite a bit more experience, especially since she knew how to remove the demon from the Eluvian, bind it to her own life, and manage to control it until someone came by who was strong enough to kill it.

But this is a discussion better left to the Merrill thread, hmm?

ETA:  I would agree that Marethari was the demon's original target when it whispered to both them.  Once the demon realized that Marethari wasn't going to be taken in by his crap, though, he shifted his sights to Merrill.  Seems straightforward enough.

Modifié par leggywillow, 12 août 2011 - 06:29 .

[SurelyForth]

Xilizhra wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It's worth pointing out that Merrill never actually caused any harm with anything she did.

Only because Marethari took the demon? Had she not done that, who knows what could have happened. 

I'm fairly certain that Marethari, being both more powerful and less experienced with demons, was the demon's target all along and that the Eluvian thing was a red herring.

O...kay? Is there any proof of this? I mean it doesn't really matter: had Merrill not dealt with the demon, Marethari wouldn't have died. There's pretty much a direct line there. The only reason the demon was able to get to Marethari was because of what Merrill did. So...at least Marethari was harmed.

[congealeddgtllvr]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

And I don't think she's saying don't join with them. She's saying know the risks of joining with them. There is a universe of difference there.

If Anders had known the risks, he might have done it somewhere away from everyone, allowed himself a healing and coping period, and not done it somewhere where people were immediately going to stab him when they found out.

She never says anything that explicitly implies "don't join with spirits." She says "know the risks" and likens the relationship to sex. For me, that's akin to saying "do it in private, and only with someone you trust. And be safe."

When I talk about Dalish wisdom I am referring to the idea that there is no difference between demons and spirits.  That is the part I think is wise.  I haven't heard about them joining with spirits after a few dates, and probably there is no official Dalish "line" on that since they are so decentralized now.  

However, I think you are the one reading into what Merrill is saying now, and heavily.  She obviously doesn't think joining with Justice was a good idea, and  I really don't see her saying "as long as it was special, and with candles, it'd turn out grand."  I guess we'll never know exactly what she meant.  

Personally, I think Anders intense hate of Templars precludes him.  This  was what warped Justice.  But almost all humans have intense emotions about something.  Which takes me back to my belief, perhaps not the Dalish belief, that it's always a bad idea.  Not because the Chantry told me so, but because of  how I see it working.  

[esper]

Xilizhra wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It's worth pointing out that Merrill never actually caused any harm with anything she did.

Only because Marethari took the demon? Had she not done that, who knows what could have happened. 

I'm fairly certain that Marethari, being both more powerful and less experienced with demons, was the demon's target all along and that the Eluvian thing was a red herring.

I think it played them both. It was pride, was it not? They are supposed to be smart. So it purposely made them fight to the point where their pride prevents them from ever saying that the other might be right. It gives Merrill just enough knowlegde to complete the mirrorr, but not enought to make it work, and it tells Matahri that it will espace through the mirror and kill Merrill. Then it just wait to see who of them is willing to free it to prove their point and that happens to be Mathari.  

Modifié par esper, 12 août 2011 - 06:29 .

[congealeddgtllvr]

I think there should be an age limit on becoming an abomination. Like, seventy, or something. I think that is what makes it work for the Rivaini wise women. Their passions have seriously cooled and they have a great perspective on life. Similarities to Wynne, here.

[leggywillow]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...
You mean the statue, right? There was no demon in the Eluvian.

::flaps hands around::  Whatever.  Wherever the demon was.  I guess I did mean the weird monkey statue.

[congealeddgtllvr]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Why wise? Spirits and demons are different. While they may have individual differences, there is a distinction to be made between the two groups.

Because it sets up a false dichotomy that Anders ends up believing in to his misfortune.  Anders is pretty much a perfect example of why it's a bad way to look at things.  What do Justice's intentions amount to if the end result is the same?  

[YamiSnuffles]

Hasn't Gaider already said, definitively, that there is a difference between spirits and demons? I don't have the quote handy, but I'm pretty sure that has been said.

Does that mean it's necessarily a good idea to merge with a spirit? No. But it's apparently not the same as being possessed by a demon.

[esper]

congealeddgtllvr wrote...

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Why wise? Spirits and demons are different. While they may have individual differences, there is a distinction to be made between the two groups.

Because it sets up a false dichotomy that Anders ends up believing in to his misfortune.  Anders is pretty much a perfect example of why it's a bad way to look at things.  What do Justice's intentions amount to if the end result is the same?  

I am going to say it again. Based on how they act spirit and demons seems to think in two completely different ways. Justice, even after being merged with Anders still thinks about how to obtain Justice. Demons on the other hand don't think about how to 'obtain' their emotion instead they seem to think. How can I use this emotion to my benefit.
I will say that 'spirits' will always try to live and ideal - they are dangerous because they expect everybody else to life by said ideal and those who doesn't... In Justice case, he thinks they most be removed - violently if necessary.
'Demons' on the other hand seems to think: I... I... and I... How do I get what I want? I use this emotion in mortals which I can manipulate. 
I don't think they are the same. I think they are like human and elves. Living in the same world, but not the same.