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[congealeddgtllvr]

esper wrote...

I am going to say it again. Based on how they act spirit and demons seems to think in two completely different ways. Justice, even after being merged with Anders still thinks about how to obtain Justice. Demons on the other hand don't think about how to 'obtain' their emotion instead they seem to think. How can I use this emotion to my benefit.
I will say that 'spirits' will always try to live and ideal - they are dangerous because they expect everybody else to life by said ideal and those who doesn't... In Justice case, he thinks they most be removed - violently if necessary.
'Demons' on the other hand seems to think: I... I... and I... How do I get what I want? I use this emotion in mortals which I can manipulate. 
I don't think they are the same. I think they are like human and elves. Living in the same world, but not the same. 

Let me say emphatically that I know differences exist between types of spirits.  I don't dispute that.  And they should be understood that way.  But by setting up spirits as virtuous you make them seem less dangerous and that is bad.  

Was Loghain less dangerous to Ferelden than Rendon Howe?  In practical terms?  Had the situation been different Loghain would have been much better for Ferelden than Howe.  But it was what it was.  

Modifié par congealeddgtllvr, 12 août 2011 - 06:55 .

[esper]

Didn't I just said I think that spirits are dangerous because they live by and ideal an seems to expect everyone else to do it too.
Extreme idealism is dangerous... much more dangerous than extreme egoism. I personally is more scared of spirits than demons.

[congealeddgtllvr]

esper wrote...

Didn't I just said I think that spirits are dangerous because they live by and ideal an seems to expect everyone else to do it too.
Extreme idealism is dangerous... much more dangerous than extreme egoism. I personally is more scared of spirits than demons.

We are pretty much in agreement then.  

[MG800]

esper wrote...

Didn't I just said I think that spirits are dangerous because they live by and ideal an seems to expect everyone else to do it too.
Extreme idealism is dangerous... much more dangerous than extreme egoism. I personally is more scared of spirits than demons.

That's wise.

[YamiSnuffles]

Thanks Queen, that was the quote I was thinking of. But apparently that's besides the point.

Anyways people, I need to run so I am out of intelligent debate and what not. Have "monster" Anders.

[MG800]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

esper wrote...

Didn't I just said I think that spirits are dangerous because they live by and ideal an seems to expect everyone else to do it too.
Extreme idealism is dangerous... much more dangerous than extreme egoism. I personally is more scared of spirits than demons.

Why? Unlike demons, a spirit doesn't try to possess people by force or through trickery - with the exception of Wynne's spirit and that's basically the only beneficial possession we know of. Justice himself needed a lot of conviction to think that possessing mortals was a-okay (goddammit, Nathaniel). You don't need spirits to blow things up or have extreme idealism. The only thing more scary about spirits than demons is that their reputation as angelic beings of virtue leads to careless trust as is the case of Anders.

That's enough to make them more dangerous. Chantry teachings are clear: spirits are first Maker children: you can trust them. It's bad only if you consort with demons. And since spirits don't posses humans it's all savvy.
Wynne's bodyguard spirit was always with her - and possesed her without asking her if she appoves. I'm sure he had good intentions, and it wasn't wrong per se, because he saved her life. But.

And one last thing: her merger was... diffrent then Anders one. Actually, if we think about it, we know nothing about merging, abominations and such - we see pattern, and it gets to be broken right before our eyes. Same with spirit/demon.

Modifié par MG800, 12 août 2011 - 07:35 .

[Melca36]

This is how Anders looked in my last Legacy run when he lost control....

[cmessaz]

Melca that is scary...

[Melca36]

cmessaz wrote...

Melca that is scary...

I just thought it was odd because he lost his Justice eyes and grew that rock armor.

I think that even Justice has no way to control the Darkspawn/Cory

[Mekarah]

I'm just going to drop this here in the middle of this srs conversation.

A-paw-states!

[cmessaz]

Mekarah wrote...

I'm just going to drop this here in the middle of this srs conversation.

A-paw-states!

OMFG I want this. 

Melca that is scary...

I just thought it was odd because he lost his Justice eyes and grew that rock armor.

I think that even Justice has no way to control the Darkspawn/Cory 

Yeah I have wondered about that too. He also does blood wound...or hemmorhage..or whatever that blood magic spell is.

Modifié par cmessaz, 12 août 2011 - 07:46 .

[esper]

MG800 wrote...

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

esper wrote...

Didn't I just said I think that spirits are dangerous because they live by and ideal an seems to expect everyone else to do it too.
Extreme idealism is dangerous... much more dangerous than extreme egoism. I personally is more scared of spirits than demons.

Why? Unlike demons, a spirit doesn't try to possess people by force or through trickery - with the exception of Wynne's spirit and that's basically the only beneficial possession we know of. Justice himself needed a lot of conviction to think that possessing mortals was a-okay (goddammit, Nathaniel). You don't need spirits to blow things up or have extreme idealism. The only thing more scary about spirits than demons is that their reputation as angelic beings of virtue leads to careless trust as is the case of Anders.

That's enough to make them more dangerous. Chantry teachings are clear: spirits are first Maker children: you can trust them. Wynne's bodyguard spirit was always with her - and possesed her without asking her if she appoves. I'm sure he had a good intentions, and it wasn't wrong per se, because he saved her life. But. 

And one last thing: her merger was... diffrent then Anders one. Actually, if we think about we know nothing about merging, abominations and such - we see pattern, and it gets to be broken right before our eyes. Same with spirit/demon.

I expect beings named demons to try and trick me. I don't expect that from a virtue.
Do we know that Wynne wasn't affected? Won't she attack you at the urn of ashed it you defile her faith? Also that dying thing Wynne think she is.... she is taking a hell of a time on doing it. I think that her feeling that the spirit weakens is actually feeling that she is merging with the spirit and their are becoming less and less two persons and instead one.
Demons, you can scare away, like Conner's visitor if you can convince them that you are a danger to their life. I don't think a spirit would ever back down.
 You have to outsmart Valor and basically saying it is defiling its own ideal to avoid fighting it.
Also based on violence Justice is on par with any unintelligent rage demon. He is like: Grr... demon must DIE. I am guessing it is because he seems them as selfish and evil.
Torpor on the other hand is more like: This spirit is irritating, but whatever let's just ignore it. It doesn't posses an immidieate danger to ME.
Demons, you can at least scare away. Or if that is not possible, you can outsmart them and try to avoid the 'I let you in to my body agreement.'
If you get on the wrong side of a spirit, I think that you are in serious trouble. And since I am not perfect, I know that I cannot live up to the ideals they represent.
 

Modifié par esper, 12 août 2011 - 07:46 .

[MG800]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...
It isn't. It makes the Chantry and their teachings dangerous - the spirits themselves are content leaving the mortal world alone. Demons actively seeks out mortals to possess. The damage spirit-abominations has caused is nowhere near on par with the damage demon-abominations has caused and continues to cause over the years, and even Justice - which is one of two spirits we know of possessing a mage - needs to be convinced to do so. Saying that they are more dangerous just isn't true.

They're more dangerous because of their reputation. That's my point.

Why not? Justice didn't force you to kill Velanna, even if he disapproves of sparing her.  

Well, he forces you to kill Architect. I don't know if my game was bugged, but that was pretty much no compromise thing. He attacked me on 90 approval.

Modifié par MG800, 12 août 2011 - 08:19 .

[Sialater]

Mekarah wrote...

I'm just going to drop this here in the middle of this srs conversation.

A-paw-states!

HAH!  I want!

Justice will attack you at the Architect if he's less than full Like, IIRC.

[esper]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

MG800 wrote...

That's enough to make them more dangerous. Chantry teachings are clear: spirits are first Maker children: you can trust them. It's bad only if you consort with demons. And since spirits don't posses humans it's all savvy.
Wynne's bodyguard spirit was always with her - and possesed her without asking her if she appoves. I'm sure he had good intentions, and it wasn't wrong per se, because he saved her life.

It isn't. It makes the Chantry and their teachings dangerous - the spirits themselves are content leaving the mortal world alone. Demons actively seeks out mortals to possess. The damage spirit-abominations has caused is nowhere near on par with the damage demon-abominations has caused and continues to cause over the years, and even Justice - which is one of two spirits we know of possessing a mage - needs to be convinced to do so. Saying that they are more dangerous just isn't true.

And one last thing: her merger was... diffrent then Anders one. Actually, if we think about we know nothing about merging, abominations and such - we see pattern, and it gets to be broken right before our eyes. Same with spirit/demon.

Morrigan speaks of the merger as Wynne getting a spirit into her service rather than them being on equal terms. The spirit doesn't seem to care overmuch about the virtue it's trying to embody either - it only cares about keeping Wynne safe and alive. So I would say its behavioral patterns are rather different from Justice's, really.

esper wrote...



Demons, you
can scare away, like Conner's visitor if you can convince them that you
are a danger to their life. I don't think a spirit would ever back down.

Why not? Justice didn't force you to kill Velanna, even if he disapproves of sparing her.

You have to outsmart Valor and basically saying it is defiling its own ideal to avoid fighting it.

Or you can simply tell him that you don't want to. I don't think you can actually proceed without the weapon, however.

Also based on violence Justice is on par with any unintelligent rage demon. He is like: Grr... demon must DIE. I am guessing it is because he seems them as selfish and evil.

After the merger, in which he has become corrupted by Anders' anger. Before the merger, he mentions once trying to make a deal with a hunger demon which didn't go over very well.

 

Of course you can tell Valor, you simply don't want to. He wouldn't be emboding the spirit of Valor if he attack an unarmed person. (If Valor means what i think it means. English not my first langue). You are not pissing him of, by doing that.
Now a faith spirit on the other hand, very easy to say something that makes you sound unfaithdull... And of course Justice' spirits...
I am sorry. I just remember the part in awakening where he kicked down down a door and an enraged and angry mob. Also I remember him trying to strike me down, because I sided with the architecth. That is in my opinion violent acts. Justice was always an eye-for-an-eye - that was the Justice he represented - but all right perhaps unintelligent rage demons was a bit unfair parrallel to make.
The calm Justice persaudtion options in Awakning always struck me as Justice being confused. He is in a world, he don't understand, he is no longer a 100 % sure what Justice in this world is. So he follows the wardens lead... He clearly says as much if you suceeds in persauding him in Awakening.
With his merging with Anders, he become more narrow-minded. He no longer cares about Justice for all, Anders anger makes him singleminded go for justice for mages. 
  

[YamiSnuffles]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

EDIT:  Nevermind me. I don't want to drag this discussion on forever.

Mekarah wrote...

I'm just going to drop this here in the middle of this srs conversation.

A-paw-states!

DO WANT

That's amazing.

[Sinaxi]

I think the best part of that shirt is the (Formerly The Kirkwall Chantry)

[esper]

@Queen-of-stuff.
No matter what I was just saying a personal opinion when I said that spirits scares me more than demons and it is too late in my country to try and have a intellegent conversation in english. My original point is that I think that spirits are being that tries to embody an ideal, and demons are beings that uses an emotion to manipulate mortals to serve the demon's will.
I don't think that demons are corrupted spirits, I think Justice got that idea from the Andrastian faith. He clearly stated that spirits takes their belief from human dreams so if 80% of the dreamers are Andrastian then it would be their source of belief.
I think that demons and spirits are two different races and personally spirits scares me more because I don't think they are willing to compromise.

[Sinaxi]

Anders Hate: All time highs this weekend on BSN, with a chance of Vengeance ripping everyone's heads off.

Rofl, you know given Hepler's short story...I find it hard to believe a tiny dagger to the back is enough to kill Anders - but whatever. I know he's canonically dead if you killed him I think.

[esper]

Tidra wrote...

Anders Hate: All time highs this weekend on BSN, with a chance of Vengeance ripping everyone's heads off.

Rofl, you know given Hepler's short story...I find it hard to believe a tiny dagger to the back is enough to kill Anders - but whatever. I know he's canonically dead if you killed him I think.

I think it is because Anders and Justice allows you to kill him.

[Sinaxi]

I know that....it's just..funny.