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[KnightofPhoenix]

esper wrote...
I think that demons and spirits are two different races and personally spirits scares me more because I don't think they are willing to compromise.

I somewhat agree with this.

I'd take a hedonist and greed anyday over an obsessed zealous idealist. The former can be satisfied and kept under control. The latter is far more dangerous, and I think people like that when they get power become even more dangerous.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 12 août 2011 - 09:29 .

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

esper wrote...
I think that demons and spirits are two different races and personally spirits scares me more because I don't think they are willing to compromise.

I somewhat agree with this.

I'd take a hedonist and greed anyday over an obsessed zealous idealist. The former can be satisfied and kept under control. The latter is far more dangerous, and I think people like that when they get power become even more dangerous.

Agreed.  There are writings of monastics, which I'm too lazy to look up, but which say that the more fleshly sins like gluttony, drunkenness, sexing up etc. are not as dangerous as the "higher" sins like pride.  The latter disguise themselves as virtues and make the offender feel justified in what they are doing.  The really zealous idealists are more dangerous than "grey" pragmatists, in my view.

I read something tangentially Anders-related this week... since I'm interloping here, I might as well mention it... there was a study that looked at serotonin levels and people's perceived sense of injustice.  The suggestion being that people with lower levels of serotonin react more strongly to unfairness.  I'm not in any way qualified to judge the study's worth, but thought I'd throw it out there as it reminded me of Anders.  Here's an article about it (PDF link).

[esper]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Alright, so I'm not done.

esper wrote...

@Queen-of-stuff.
No matter what I was just saying a personal opinion when I said that spirits scares me more than demons and it is too late in my country to try and have a intellegent conversation in english. My original point is that I think that spirits are being that tries to embody an ideal, and demons are beings that uses an emotion to manipulate mortals to serve the demon's will.
I don't think that demons are corrupted spirits, I think Justice got that idea from the Andrastian faith. He clearly stated that spirits takes their belief from human dreams so if 80% of the dreamers are Andrastian then it would be their source of belief.

Agreed.

I think that demons and spirits are two different races and personally spirits scares me more because I don't think they are willing to compromise.

My point is this: the overwhelming majority of spirits do not seek to possess mortals. The overwhelming majority of demons do. A lot of the dangers with spirits would be erased with their reputation of being angelic and harmless, but you can't make a demon less dangerous by demonizing them further (see what I did there) because mages are already trained to fear them.  My point isn't that spirits are nice and fluffy - clearly they are not. But even if you ****** off a spirit and make it attack you, this is still less dangerous than being possessed by a demon that goes on to play Phil the merry Butcher with everyone in vicinity.

Or possession is dangerous no doubt of that, but as you self said: It is a danger which the mages a trained to resist or at least know.
But I can't help and wonder. I just think Spirits are more dangerous to deal with when you are in the situation were you are force to do it. Luckely, Spirits tend to be content with the dreams of mortals and such we are not generally forced to del with them other than for the brief spirit healing - and if it is a Faith spirit lurking in Andrastian dreams that aids Spirit healers. It should be no problem if the Spirit healer is a good little Andrastian... 
Justice just scared me in Awakening. He don't scares me in DA2 not very logical I know.
I think it was because my warden was... more cynical than my Hawke. My warden really took the whatever the price part of her grey wardeness seriously, so she and Justice wasn't best friends forever - to say it mildly. My Hawke is an idealist herself and very uncompromizing so that part of Anders doesn't scares her. Plus with Anders, Justice is tempered with a human part so... while it screws them both up, it also means that Justice no longer demands... say that ser Pounce-a-lot being set free from the cruel slavery.

I can deal with Janders being uncompromising in the mage plights situation, because it is one plight at a time I guess.
I can't deal with Justice being unable to differ between Velanna killing the merchant, Nathaniel breaking in to steal his own stuff and Anders keeping a pet. That kind of demand to have equal Justice to all scared me to hell.  

[Sinaxi]

I have often wondered if we will ever find out who Wynne's son is...

oh, I'm thinking about Wynne because I know people were talking about spirits vs. demons a while back and I did want to mention that Spirit Healers do have to deal with spirits in order to augment their powers. Being a Spirit Healer takes quite a bit of skill, and if anything being a Spirit Healer is a testament to how much more willpower/vigilance these Mages must have against possession.

Considering Anders is also a Spirit Healer, it makes me wonder if Justice had decided to merge with sayyy....just any other random Mage if it would have just completely and totally messed up that person. I mean, I know that it's supposedly Anders anger that made Justice turn into Vengeance, but it's obvious to me that Anders must have some sort of pretty strong willpower in order to keep Vengeance/Justice at bay for as long as he has the majority of the time. I just wonder if being a Spirit Healer for most of his life is a big part of that reason. Hm. Just something to consider, I guess.

Edit - Hah...I didn't even know you guys were still on that tangent..never refreshed the page.

Modifié par Tidra, 12 août 2011 - 09:56 .

[Sinaxi]

esper wrote...
I can deal with Janders being uncompromising in the mage plights situation, because it is one plight at a time I guess.
I can't deal with Justice being unable to differ between Velanna killing the merchant, Nathaniel breaking in to steal his own stuff and Anders keeping a pet. That kind of demand to have equal Justice to all scared me to hell.  

Well, that's the point though - Justice is a spirit from the Fade. He is not accustomed to anything that goes on in the real world, and as such it makes zero sense to him. He tries to process things in a way that he normally would, which is largely black and white and therefore he cannot distinguish between these things very well until he is able to live among people for a longer time period. He cannot just change his views of his particular "Virtue" at the drop of a hat since that is technically what he is.

So you get Justice telling Anders he is enslaving kittens

It takes him a while to understand these things better.

Modifié par Tidra, 12 août 2011 - 10:01 .

[esper]

Tidra wrote...

esper wrote...
I can deal with Janders being uncompromising in the mage plights situation, because it is one plight at a time I guess.
I can't deal with Justice being unable to differ between Velanna killing the merchant, Nathaniel breaking in to steal his own stuff and Anders keeping a pet. That kind of demand to have equal Justice to all scared me to hell.  

Well, that's the point though - Justice is a spirit from the Fade. He is not accustomed to anything that goes on in the real world, and as such it makes zero sense to him. He tries to process things in a way that he normally would, which is largely black and white and therefore he cannot distinguish between these things very well until he is able to live among people for a longer time period. He cannot just change his views of his particular "Virtue" at the drop of a hat since that is technically what he is.

So you get Justice telling Anders he is enslaving kittens

I know it is the point. Justice just scared me more than any demon who I know how to deal with (Second guess everything it says and look for its hidden motive!). Justice and my warden just didn't agreed on the method to the goal and I constantly feared he would freak out on my warden...

[Melca36]

Gaiders next book is supposed to be about Wynne's son from what I heard.


I always thought it would be funny is Templar Caroll ended up being Wynne's son.

Modifié par Melca36, 12 août 2011 - 10:21 .

[LT123]

Tidra wrote...

I have often wondered if we will ever find out who Wynne's son is...

oh, I'm thinking about Wynne because I know people were talking about spirits vs. demons a while back and I did want to mention that Spirit Healers do have to deal with spirits in order to augment their powers. Being a Spirit Healer takes quite a bit of skill, and if anything being a Spirit Healer is a testament to how much more willpower/vigilance these Mages must have against possession.

Considering Anders is also a Spirit Healer, it makes me wonder if Justice had decided to merge with sayyy....just any other random Mage if it would have just completely and totally messed up that person. I mean, I know that it's supposedly Anders anger that made Justice turn into Vengeance, but it's obvious to me that Anders must have some sort of pretty strong willpower in order to keep Vengeance/Justice at bay for as long as he has the majority of the time. I just wonder if being a Spirit Healer for most of his life is a big part of that reason. Hm. Just something to consider, I guess.

Edit - Hah...I didn't even know you guys were still on that tangent..never refreshed the page.

David Gaider's new novel is about Wynne's son.

I wonder if Wynne's still alive.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

The thing that frustrates me most, the thing I don't understand and that I think the game suffers the most for not explaining, is why Justice lost all the character progression he had in Awakening.

After a while, he let up on pretty much everybody, and started to develop nuanced understanding, and think of non-smitey ways to solve problems. There's a banter near the end of Awakening where he tells Velanna that the best way for her to atone is to attempt to educate humans about the things they destroy, even if attempting this education does not work... making the effort is enough.

I can imagine the merger as it went occurring between beginning-of-Awakening Justice and Anders, but it makes no sense after Justice begins to learn things and adapt to the world. It's not a matter of virtues vs sins that made me appreciate him as something unique and useful.  I was much more interested in the fact that he showed himself to be pretty darn adaptive, and by the end of Awakening he was starting to really understand our world and appreciate it as more than just a place to carry out Justice.

Now I know that Anders said that his anger corrupted Justice, but I would have liked to see something that was angrier without having seemingly forgotten every lesson he learned in Awakening. One of the things that made me more confident that he was more interesting than dangerous in Awakening was that he began to see this world as something intrinsically valuable on its own, valuable for its experiences and its lessons. He loses all desire to learn anything when he merges with Anders, and that makes no sense to me.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 12 août 2011 - 10:45 .

[Furtled]

Addai67 wrote...
Agreed.  There are writings of monastics, which I'm too lazy to look up, but which say that the more fleshly sins like gluttony, drunkenness, sexing up etc. are not as dangerous as the "higher" sins like pride.  The latter disguise themselves as virtues and make the offender feel justified in what they are doing.  The really zealous idealists are more dangerous than "grey" pragmatists, in my view.

The demons (sins - usually the 7 deadly ones) as they're set against spirits (virtues like Justice) in DA always remind me of medieval views, the kind of things you see in Dante or Milton's work; in that vein it makes perfect sense that Pride is considered the worst since it partly led to man's (and Lucifer's) downfall in the OT stories. Mind I went to a catholic school many, many years back, so my interpretation of these things might differ from other peoples.

Would have loved the opportunity to have Hawke speak to Justice a bit more in the game but never mind. I do wonder if part of the reason  he looses his curiosity (besides being twisted by anger) is down to the merge, maybe merging with a living host answers most of the questions Justice had?

Modifié par Furtled, 12 août 2011 - 11:06 .

[Sinaxi]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

The thing that frustrates me most, the thing I don't understand and that I think the game suffers the most for not explaining, is why Justice lost all the character progression he had in Awakening.

After a while, he let up on pretty much everybody, and started to develop nuanced understanding, and think of non-smitey ways to solve problems. There's a banter near the end of Awakening where he tells Velanna that the best way for her to atone is to attempt to educate humans about the things they destroy, even if attempting this education does not work... making the effort is enough.

I can imagine the merger as it went occurring between beginning-of-Awakening Justice and Anders, but it makes no sense after Justice begins to learn things and adapt to the world. It's not a matter of virtues vs sins that made me appreciate him as something unique and useful.  I was much more interested in the fact that he showed himself to be pretty darn adaptive, and by the end of Awakening he was starting to really understand our world and appreciate it as more than just a place to carry out Justice.

Now I know that Anders said that his anger corrupted Justice, but I would have liked to see something that was angrier without having seemingly forgotten every lesson he learned in Awakening. One of the things that made me more confident that he was more interesting than dangerous in Awakening was that he began to see this world as something intrinsically valuable on its own, valuable for its experiences and its lessons. He loses all desire to learn anything when he merges with Anders, and that makes no sense to me.

Eh, Idk. It doesn't help that we really have no idea what is going on in Anders head but maybe in more time, or now that he knows Mages are fighting for their freedom, he will calm down and "take a step back" so to speak instead of just laying down the Justice hammer. I understand your point though, it's strange.

I wonder if being in Kirkwall, as it isn't the best place for Mages to be (Corypheus/The Veil/Blood Magic Ritual things that we all keep reading about) if it is also not a very great place for Justice to be. But that's just some random speculation/thoughts.

[Addai]

Tidra wrote...
I wonder if being in Kirkwall, as it isn't the best place for Mages to be (Corypheus/The Veil/Blood Magic Ritual things that we all keep reading about) if it is also not a very great place for Justice to be. But that's just some random speculation/thoughts.

But the bloodsucking thing started in Amaranthine, according to the short story.

This is partly why I say that whatever Anders has become, it's unnatural.  It doesn't seem to be good for either him or Justice.  And there was at least discussion of the possibility of Justice turning into a demon/ being no different than a demon back then- it's one of Nate's banters, as I recall?  I guess you have to assume Anders never overheard that and the idea never occurs to him.

[SurelyForth]

Addai67 wrote...

Tidra wrote...
I wonder if being in Kirkwall, as it isn't the best place for Mages to be (Corypheus/The Veil/Blood Magic Ritual things that we all keep reading about) if it is also not a very great place for Justice to be. But that's just some random speculation/thoughts.

But the bloodsucking thing started in Amaranthine, according to the short story.

This is partly why I say that whatever Anders has become, it's unnatural.  It doesn't seem to be good for either him or Justice.  And there was at least discussion of the possibility of Justice turning into a demon/ being no different than a demon back then- it's one of Nate's banters, as I recall?  I guess you have to assume Anders never overheard that and the idea never occurs to him.

Addai. The bloodsucking thing? Really? He got blood in his mouth when he was demoned out, he didn't actively seek to suck anyone's blood. Since he hardly goes around Kirkwall nomming on people (except Hawke, perhaps) and sparkling in daylight, I'd hardly call it bloodsucking much less a bloodsucking thing.

And due to the fact that he only loses control three times on the friendship path after that (with Karl, with Ella and in Legacy, but due to an ancient magister trying to brain control him) over seven years, I'd hardly say that he's full on demon. It's like...having a disease that's mostly dormant except for temporary, debilitating episodes that crop up for a few days every couple of years. Would you say that person's life isn't worth living? Especially since these episodes can only result in a single unbidden death, and that's only if Hawke can't talk him out of killing Ella.

[Madriu034]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

The thing that frustrates me most, the thing I don't understand and that I think the game suffers the most for not explaining, is why Justice lost all the character progression he had in Awakening.

I don't know that he did, really.  None of us do, since we see him so rarely in DA2.  The few times that we do see him are unbearably short or rage fueled, even when the developers had a good excuse (Feynriel) to let him out for a bit.  I think that's a shame. 

My headcanon is a bit different than yours, though, I suspect.  I think that one of the main reasons why we don't see too much of Justice is his guilt over what he's done.  He only manifests when he's driven out of control by what he feels are great injustices, and then only if Anders tries unsuccessfully to stop him.  I think he's *able* to take control at any time he wishes, I mean Anders is not the strongest mentally, and Justice is.  He just knows it isn't fair to treat Anders like that.  In the Feynriel quest, for example, he's not trying to rip the heads off your party members, at least until they give in to the demons and fight you.  He's acting very Justice-like, not Vengeance-like. 

And thus, we get next to no insight into what Justice really thinks or feels.  Personally, I'm leaning toward the self-doubt and remorse that we do get to see coming through in Anders.  One of his greatest fears was turning into a demon, and (while he'd never admit it) I think that he's scared to death of this after eating people, and trying to/succeeding to kill Ella.  Still, he can't change what he is intrinsically, thus we get a three year period of mental torment for them as they both attempt to do so.

I don't think he's the one-note demon that people think he is in DA2, in other words.  But these are things that should have been explored further, imo.

But then, I am biased... I RP as Justice, and I want moar!

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Oh, I generally believe that the way you headcanon Justice is how he should be, and I personally have him a bit closer to that myself, but I'm annoyed by the fact that they don't show us any real evidence of that, when it would have been easy to do so. All the "Justice is a Demon rawr rawr" people see him as completely one-note because the scenes we are given are largely one-note. You must have played awakening, listened to the things Justice said then, and cared enough to remember them in order to infer the things you're suggesting... which is asking rather too much of the average player, I think.

[cmessaz]

I mean...another one? Really? Why do people care who I romance? ;_;

[Madriu034]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Oh, I generally believe that the way you headcanon Justice is how he should be, and I personally have him a bit closer to that myself, but I'm annoyed by the fact that they don't show us any real evidence of that, when it would have been easy to do so. All the "Justice is a Demon rawr rawr" people see him as completely one-note because the scenes we are given are largely one-note. You must have played awakening, listened to the things Justice said then, and cared enough to remember them in order to infer the things you're suggesting... which is asking rather too much of the average player, I think.

Totally agreed there.  So many people blame Justice, and see him as completely evil in DA2, and I'm just... no.  There is evidence if you look for it, but yeah, you'd have to have played Awakening and remember him how he was.  The manifesto for example is Justice's way of attempting to educate the populace, as he suggested Velanna do.  But in the end, the attempt is not enough, as it does not stop the continuing injustice.  It just gets worse.

You have to read more into Anders' actions to get a handle on the character of Justice in DA2.  I wish we'd had something more concrete than that, indeed.

[cmessaz]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

I mean...another one? Really? Why do people care who I romance? ;_;

Is this in reference to the Anders' true color thread?  Because he is so not a natural blonde.

LOL! Well that and a few other things...but yeah. *huggles Anders*

[Addai]

SurelyForth wrote...
Addai. The bloodsucking thing? Really? He got blood in his mouth when he was demoned out, he didn't actively seek to suck anyone's blood. Since he hardly goes around Kirkwall nomming on people (except Hawke, perhaps) and sparkling in daylight, I'd hardly call it bloodsucking much less a bloodsucking thing.

Quote: (edit- adding link)

His blood splashes into my open mouth and it tastes like honeyed wine and the warmth spreads through me.

Most people like the taste of honeyed wine and the sensation of warmth spreading through them.  That's pretty vampiric terminology there.  Take it up with Hepler, if you don't think that's how people should look at his altered state.

Anyway, it's just my mental shorthand for what happens in Amaranthine.  Call it "the losing control and going on a violent rampage thing," si vous preferez.  Point being, that kind of episode can't be blamed on Kirkwall.

And due to the fact that he only loses control three times on the friendship path after that (with Karl, with Ella and in Legacy, but due to an ancient magister trying to brain control him) over seven years, I'd hardly say that he's full on demon. It's like...having a disease that's mostly dormant except for temporary, debilitating episodes that crop up for a few days every couple of years. Would you say that person's life isn't worth living? Especially since these episodes can only result in a single unbidden death, and that's only if Hawke can't talk him out of killing Ella.

Again, I would not use the phrase "life worth living."  That implies a moral judgment.  I would call it making a risk assessment, which is something your PC has to do all the time- well, except in the case of people who randomly attack you for no reason, of which there are a lot in this game.

Modifié par Addai67, 13 août 2011 - 12:23 .

[Aeowyn]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

I mean...another one? Really? Why do people care who I romance? ;_;

Is this in reference to the Anders' true color thread?  Because he is so not a natural blonde.

Thanks to that thread, I now have "True Colours" stuck in my head <_<

[cmessaz]

Aeowyn wrote...

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

I mean...another one? Really? Why do people care who I romance? ;_;

Is this in reference to the Anders' true color thread?  Because he is so not a natural blonde.

Thanks to that thread, I now have "True Colours" stuck in my head <_<

I didn't...but now I do. Thanks Aeo! D:< 

[Sinaxi]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

I mean...another one? Really? Why do people care who I romance? ;_;

Is this in reference to the Anders' true color thread?  Because he is so not a natural blonde.

Haters gonna hate. <3

[CulturalGeekGirl]

True colours is actually a really good song for Hawke+Anders.

Show me a smile,
Don't be unhappy, can't remember
When I last saw you laughing
If this world makes you crazy
And you've taken all you can bear,
Just call me up,
cause you know I'll be there