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[Pris81]

Nilfalasiel wrote...

esper wrote...

@Arquen
I still think people that there have been through hell are allowed to complain about it and be marked. That count for both Anders and Fenris. I don't understand that why people call Anders and Fenris for whiners - they have perfectly reasonable explanation why they are that way.
Personally I love Anders passion.

The term "whiny" gets thrown around waaaay too much. I've seen it applied to so many characters. Heck, I've even seen *Garrus* described as whiny...

Seriously, people should ask themselves "well, if all that crap had happened to me, how would I be behaving?" a bit more every once in a while.

I'm pretty sure that if you had to share your brain on a daily basis with a single-minded spirit gone bonkers...you wouldn't really be able to think about much else. And I don't think you'd be able to vouch for the safety of your significant other...or anybody else, for that matter.

You bet...

I guess it's (over)used by people who expects characters from war-involving, epic fantasy games like DA:O/DA2 to be the "real men don't cry" kind. That would make JRR Tolkien shake all over in his grave... Isn't a whiny, emo person supposed to be always complaining about life and never doing much about it all? That doesn't sound much like Anders or Fenris...

And puppy eyed Anders is just impossible to resist.

I'm sure this picture is been post here before, but...





(Edit - yeah, I've learn't how to do it! )
@Amondra: This is a little off-topic but I couldn't help saying: I'm loving your fanfic "What is justice", even if I'm not much into the fanfic thing. It's heart-touching.

Modifié par Pris81, 14 août 2011 - 01:07 .

[shedevil3001]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

@Verily: I want Chantry boom pics! Share! Pretty please?

And I am shocked anyone would want to mod Anders face. I love him in all his unshaven, scruffy glory! Hell, he's one of the few male NPC faces in DA2 that I even find appealing.

I should go over to the Nexus, though, and pick up some mods for alot of other game aesthetics, especially Hawke's Champion armor, which I think looks tacky.

Does anyone have a list of mods not on the Nexus that they would recommend?

i have about 6 retextures of the champion armor in my faves but they are on nexus if this is any good ?

sorry i dont usually post but i'm a constant lurker of the anders thread *i think he is the most interesting and by far sexiest companion in da2* :}

Modifié par shedevil3001, 14 août 2011 - 12:57 .

[Nilfalasiel]

esper wrote...

Fair points, but I am not sure level headed Wynne would attack you at the Urn of Ashes for defiling. I think it is because you are going against her fate. Also is it true that she magically knows that you have tainted the ashes even if she isn't in the party? I have heard some rumors, but I have never checked it,
I don't think Faith is as dangerous as Justice generally, unless it gets warped into fanatisme and other fancy english words that I can't spell (I really wish english was my first langue sometimes, so I could argue properly). Also there is all the morally lectures Wynne comes with - that is not exactly the same as discussing the origins of darkspawn with the new grey wardens recruits. The are also the matter of gameplay back then not being the same as gameplay now, but I loathe to use that argument.
I don't know about Wynne. I do think she handle her possession better than Anders, possible because she is older and more mellow, so the spirit properly didn't experienced the same 'emotion shock' that Justice went through, but I also think she hasn't gotten any answers because she don't really know what is going on either.

Well, to be fair, Leliana attacks you as well if you defile the ashes, and she's not possessed. Similarly, Shale will attack you if you side with Branka at the Anvil of the Void. It's just that these are issues those 3 characters feel extremely strongly about, I don't think it's related to Wynne's merger with Faith.

As for Wynne magically knowing that you've tainted the ashes, that's apparently true. If you don't bring her along, she'll initiate dialogue when you return to camp and then leave. Says the Wiki, I've never tainted the Ashes myself (or, well, I did to get the achievement, then reloaded). It can make sense though: she could've asked the characters you did take with you about what happened and then decided to confront you about it.

If you consider that Fanaticism is the opposite of Faith (and that sounds logical), then yeah, Faith can be just as dangerous as Vengeance. Which is why I don't think Wynne's spirit got corrupted: there's a difference between being naturally preachy (which Wynne certainly sounds like she is) and going on a "holy crusade against infidels".

On a different note: tu es française?

@ Pris81: All hail Sir Pouts-A-Lot!

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 14 août 2011 - 01:14 .

[esper]

Nilfalasiel wrote...

esper wrote...

Fair points, but I am not sure level headed Wynne would attack you at the Urn of Ashes for defiling. I think it is because you are going against her fate. Also is it true that she magically knows that you have tainted the ashes even if she isn't in the party? I have heard some rumors, but I have never checked it,
I don't think Faith is as dangerous as Justice generally, unless it gets warped into fanatisme and other fancy english words that I can't spell (I really wish english was my first langue sometimes, so I could argue properly). Also there is all the morally lectures Wynne comes with - that is not exactly the same as discussing the origins of darkspawn with the new grey wardens recruits. The are also the matter of gameplay back then not being the same as gameplay now, but I loathe to use that argument.
I don't know about Wynne. I do think she handle her possession better than Anders, possible because she is older and more mellow, so the spirit properly didn't experienced the same 'emotion shock' that Justice went through, but I also think she hasn't gotten any answers because she don't really know what is going on either.

Well, to be fair, Leliana attacks you as well if you defile the ashes, and she's not possessed. Similarly, Shale will attack you if you side with Branka at the Anvil of the Void. It's just that these are issues those 3 characters feel extremely strongly about, I don't think it's related to Wynne's merger with Faith.

As for Wynne magically knowing that you've tainted the ashes, that's apparently true. If you don't bring her along, she'll initiate dialogue when you return to camp and then leave. Says the Wiki, I've never tainted the Ashes myself (or, well, I did to get the achievement, then reloaded). It can make sense though: she could've asked the characters you did take with you about what happened and then decided to confront you about it.

If you consider that Fanaticism is the opposite of Faith (and that sounds logical), then yeah, Faith can be just as dangerous as Vengeance. Which is why I don't think Wynne's spirit got corrupted: there's a difference between being naturally preachy (which Wynne certainly sounds like she is) and going on a "holy crusade against infidels".

On a different note: tu es française?

@ Pris81: All hail Sir Pouts-A-Lot!

Nope I am not france, but I am from europe. Leliana doesn't magically knows you have tainted the ashes - I think (Because I have never done it either).
Perhaps the Faith spirit was really lucky. I you are Faith and gets stuck into a person who is generally nice, but with a tendency to lecture and content with the person life, I guess that none will notice if she starts to 'lecture' or 'preach' about a subject more or two.
There is also the question if spirits had personalities. Demons certainly seems to have (my favorite are Mouse and Torpor... and Kitty, because she was a cat), but we have not really met two spirits of the same kind so we can't really compare.


  

[Arquen]

I think the main difference between the two spirits is exactly what they are. Faith and Justice.

Faith is a passive spirit. It exists to guide, to encourage hope, to inspire.

Justice is an aggressive spirit, calling for action, retribution, punishment if necessary.

Justice is also tainted by anger, whereas the Faith spirit pretty much had a hollow body to fill. Wynne was brought back to life by her spirit. What kind of mindset she was in at the time is probably more akin to a passive puppet like Kristoff than an active, anger driven, very aware mind like Anders. Their merging circumstances were very different and I don't think that can be overlooked.

That's not saying there are downsides to Faith or no upsides to Justice. As stated Faith can cause zealotry and blind faith is dangerous. Then again what is it that they say... "Justice is blind.."? Not to mention Justice came from a body where he had already been 'tainted' if you will with certain desires and emotions. Faith has no such motivations to help or grand causes to pursue. It seems all Faith wanted to do was give life and hope to a dying woman, something that is very indicative of what Faith represents.

[esper]

Faith doesn't have to be passive. You obviosuly have not met some of the persons studying religion at my university.
Besides that I tend to agree. Wynne's Faith had been with her, her whole life - just from the Fade and there is a good reason to belive it was so attached to her because it was a spirit who thought it existed to guide and inspire. I think Faith got lucky - try to imagine it in... say Petrice.
The problem with Justice was that he was always and eye-for-an-eye which actually is vengance. He also solved his problem with force before. Then add Anders for a really short fuse and narrow his view of justice down to being most about mages, and you have a really dangerous mix.
Speaking of corrupting spirits - how do you corrupt Hope?

Modifié par esper, 14 août 2011 - 02:02 .

[Arquen]

Hope is corrupted by its opposite -- Despair. The only way to corrupt hope is to instill an utter lack of Hope.

Also.... that's why I said.. "That's not saying there are downsides to Faith or no upsides to Justice. As stated Faith can cause zealotry and blind faith is dangerous." -- I never assumed Faith HAS to be passive.

[Nilfalasiel]

Arquen wrote...

I think the main difference between the two spirits is exactly what they are. Faith and Justice.

Faith is a passive spirit. It exists to guide, to encourage hope, to inspire.

Justice is an aggressive spirit, calling for action, retribution, punishment if necessary.

Justice is also tainted by anger, whereas the Faith spirit pretty much had a hollow body to fill. Wynne was brought back to life by her spirit. What kind of mindset she was in at the time is probably more akin to a passive puppet like Kristoff than an active, anger driven, very aware mind like Anders. Their merging circumstances were very different and I don't think that can be overlooked.

Good points. Also, had Kristoff been alive when Justice was forced into him, I think the results would've been very, very different. Especially since Kristoff wouldn't have been warned that a spirit was to be forcibly sent into his body.

That's not saying there are downsides to Faith or no upsides to Justice. As stated Faith can cause zealotry and blind faith is dangerous. Then again what is it that they say... "Justice is blind.."? Not to mention Justice came from a body where he had already been 'tainted' if you will with certain desires and emotions. Faith has no such motivations to help or grand causes to pursue. It seems all Faith wanted to do was give life and hope to a dying woman, something that is very indicative of what Faith represents.

I was also wondering: is it possible that the fact that both Kristoff and Anders were Grey Wardens somehow influenced Justice's transformation? They both had the taint within them. I'm not exactly sure how something incorporeal like a spirit could be affected by something as corporeal as blood (whereas it can be affected by incorporeal thoughts and emotions), but it is true that Justice's hosts both had that peculiarity, whereas Wynne was never a Warden.

esper wrote...

Faith doesn't have to be passive. You obviosuly have not met some of the persons studying religion at my university.
Besides that I tend to agree. Wynne's Faith had been with her, her whole life - just from the Fade and there is a good reason to belive it was so attached to her because it was a spirit who thought it existed to guide and inspire. I think Faith got lucky - try to imagine it in... say Petrice.

Still, the concept of faith is more passive in and of itself than justice. Faith involves believing, which is intrinsically personal. Sure, if you push faith into zealotry or fanaticism, it will involve imposing that belief on others, but the starting sentiment is a personal one. Whereas justice involves passing judgment, ie. influencing others from the outset.

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 14 août 2011 - 02:19 .

[Arquen]

Interesting thought. If Justice can be affected by the "taint" then it would definitely explain his not being able to control himself in Legacy with the Call of Cory.

[Nilfalasiel]

Arquen wrote...

Hope is corrupted by its opposite -- Despair. The only way to corrupt hope is to instill an utter lack of Hope.

But what would a corrupted version of Hope be called?

Corrupted Faith is Fanaticism. Corrupted Justice is Vengeance.

Corrupted Hope...?

[esper]

Just saying opposite seems like cheating though.
Vengance and Justice is not so far from each other, but really two side of the same coin.
Compassion can be caring about everything equally or perhaps feeling empathy with causes you shouldn't feel empathy with.
Faith is, as you said is blind faith and zealotry.
But I couldn't come up with anything better for Hope than despair either... According to the databook Hope is supposed to be the strongest kind of spirit, so perhaps it makes sense that it can only be corrupted by the opposite. ...Perhaps false Hope could be the corrupted kind - keep hopeing for something that you can never achieve.

[esper]

Since we are on the subject of spirit. How is Fortitude a virtue? I think there is a nuance in the word that I don't quite grasp, and when I look it up in my dictonary it translate into a word in my country which we don't associate with virtues.

[Ryzaki]

Fortitude (virtue): Strength of mind to face adversity with courage.

[esper]

Thanks. That makes sense.

[Nilfalasiel]

esper wrote...

Since we are on the subject of spirit. How is Fortitude a virtue? I think there is a nuance in the word that I don't quite grasp, and when I look it up in my dictonary it translate into a word in my country which we don't associate with virtues.

Fortitude is the ability to bear hardships or adversity. It's basically what inspires courage.

EDIT: 'ed

As for Hope, it would make sense that Despair would be the only thing that can corrupt it, if it's the strongest possible spirit (the whole "hope dies last" idea).

I was thinking Obliviousness for a corrupted version of Hope: blindly believing in a solution, beyond all logic. But then, you can be oblivious to many different things, it doesn't apply only to hope.

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 14 août 2011 - 02:37 .

[YamiSnuffles]

As far as the defiling the ashes goes, Leliana will still ask you about it back at camp even if you she wasn't there. You can lie/persuade her, but if you fail at that she will leave. So it's not like Wynne knowing even if she wasn't there is a sign of spirit powers or something.

When it comes to spirits, I can understand Justice being warped into Vengeance. So clearly there is a danger in merging with such a spirit, but I just don't see all spirits as having that same dangerous potential. I mean a spirit of compassion? Or fortitude? Neither would have causes the same way faith or justice might and it's really hard for me to see them being warped into something especially dangerous.

[berelinde]

Nilfalasiel wrote...

Arquen wrote...

Hope is corrupted by its opposite -- Despair. The only way to corrupt hope is to instill an utter lack of Hope.

But what would a corrupted version of Hope be called?

Corrupted Faith is Fanaticism. Corrupted Justice is Vengeance.

Corrupted Hope...?

Presumption?
Overconfidence?
Impudence?

It seems to me that the demonic counterpart of virtues are concepts taken too far.

[esper]

That depends how much compassion and fortitude spirits are, I guess.
Say someone important got possessed by a compassion spirit. Someone who had to deal with situations where no matter what someone else would end up getting hurt. A person possessed by Compassion could be rendered inable to make the choice... sort of like Elthina, but I agree it seems to have a lot less danger signs than Justice.

[Taihsigva]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

When it comes to spirits, I can understand Justice being warped into Vengeance. So clearly there is a danger in merging with such a spirit, but I just don't see all spirits as having that same dangerous potential. I mean a spirit of compassion? Or fortitude? Neither would have causes the same way faith or justice might and it's really hard for me to see them being warped into something especially dangerous.

I think for the spirits that wouldn't have such immediate causes, the main danger would be mostly to the host (and those with a close relationship to the host) rather than to some larger part of society. Even if the spirit fixates on a 'nice' virtue like compassion, you'd still be merging with a very single-minded being, and being so obsessed with any concept would be mentally taxing and such.

[Verly]

well, it's not like anyone doesn't know this happens in the game. (plus, even the first time I got very very suspicious about bomb making material and then he all of a sudden wanted to visit the chantry. not a dummy am I. lol)

[Giggles_Manically]

That looks like an Orbital Strike from lots of RTS games I have played.

Who knew Anders had a death star?

[esper]

Is it wrong to think that it is actually a very pretty colour?

[MG800]

esper wrote...

That depends how much compassion and fortitude spirits are, I guess.
Say someone important got possessed by a compassion spirit. Someone who had to deal with situations where no matter what someone else would end up getting hurt. A person possessed by Compassion could be rendered inable to make the choice... sort of like Elthina, but I agree it seems to have a lot less danger signs than Justice.

Someone possesed by Compassion could be pretty much self-destructive - trying to save and heal everyone, and failing, hating himself/herself for that - straight path to depression, and suicide. So yeah, the only threat this person impose is to self. 
Hope is diffrent. Hope would try to be infectious with her optimism, trying to get people to fight every fight, especially the ones they're meant to lose. No tactical reatreat, no tactics - blind hope could ignite a war, and get their side slaughtered.

[esper]

MG800 wrote...

esper wrote...

That depends how much compassion and fortitude spirits are, I guess.
Say someone important got possessed by a compassion spirit. Someone who had to deal with situations where no matter what someone else would end up getting hurt. A person possessed by Compassion could be rendered inable to make the choice... sort of like Elthina, but I agree it seems to have a lot less danger signs than Justice.

Someone possesed by Compassion could be pretty much self-destructive - trying to save and heal everyone, and failing, hating himself/herself for that - straight path to depression, and suicide. So yeah, the only threat this person impose is to self. 
Hope is diffrent. Hope would try to be infectious with her optimism, trying to get people to fight every fight, especially the ones they're meant to lose. No tactical reatreat, no tactics - blind hope could ignite a war, and get their side slaughtered.

That is a good point for the danger of hope. Blind hope! 

[nitefyre410]

Looking at those pictures it almost looks like an implosion more than explosion - well from those two shots like the Chantry was suck into the something.