57020 réponses à ce sujet

[Madriu034]

By: I-rina.
Edit for Top:  JUSTICE!  'Cause he's awesome!

Sepewrath wrote...

Well Justice is the primary suspect in blowing up the Chantry lol. But yeah, I think both had a negative influence on each other and it would have probably been for the best, if Justice had attached a more "stable" person. if he had to combine with a living host at all.

And Anders, if you don't constantly tell him that what he is, and what he is striving for are wrong... Well, he goes right along with it.  Who is to say that it wasn't his idea, initially?  I can't see Justice coming up with a bomb plot myself, he doesn't understand mortal politics.  He does understand staying firm and on course, however.

Modifié par Madriu034, 24 août 2011 - 04:33 .

[Sepewrath]

Well if they are connected as one, its a safe bet that he knows what Anders knows. He also seem well aware of what was going on in the world, during one of his many flipouts, so I think he completely understands the politics of the world. Whether the idea came from him or Anders, who knows, but Justice clearly knew what was happening.

[Madriu034]

Sepewrath wrote...

Well if they are connected as one, its a safe bet that he knows what Anders knows. He also seem well aware of what was going on in the world, during one of his many flipouts, so I think he completely understands the politics of the world. Whether the idea came from him or Anders, who knows, but Justice clearly knew what was happening.

*shrug* Knowing (and hating) what is going on, and coming up with a viable plan to fix things are different.  I think (?) that Anders also says that Justice still can't figure out how time works, even though they share thoughts. 

[Arquen]

I too dislike when people just use Justice as the scapegoat to blame for "ruining" Anders.

Honestly, I loved Justice in Awakenings. I also loved Anders. As is said many times before their merger is still shrouded in so much mystery that it is hard to say what exactly happened to Justice. I'm not convinced he is a "demon" per say, but I am convinced he was tainted with human desires and emotions even before the merger.

After the merger he gets a huge dose of anger on top of that. I'm reminded of a quote: "Justice and Vengeance are like peanut butter and chocolate..." You can have one without the other, but they go together so well. A spirit of Justice being hit with all of Anders' anger and experiences would indeed seek vengeance for the wrongdoings as well as maintain his core resolve to obtain Justice for all.

It is unclear who actually controlled the bomb. I'm not so quick to blame it on Justice as I have been previously. The more I think about it the more I believe that Anders really is telling the truth about there not being a line separating them. He doesn't hear Justice's voice. He just thinks. Justice meanwhile must be somewhere between always plotting and wondering why things aren't happening NOW. He was always very child-like and straightforward in his world view. Anders says that time has no meaning in the fade, but Justice seems so impatient. I think Anders even says that Justice doesn't know how to "bide his time..." and wait for the right moment. Therefore, I'm thinking the bomb had to have been something they both created. If Justice were the sole cause he probably would have just forced Anders along a lot sooner than he did. I'm thinking it was more likely that after all those years Anders and Justice both just got sick of fighting their desire and just gave in to the last resort plan because all else had failed.

Anders was the one studying the Tevinter books. Anders was the one who led you to get the "potion." Justice was not in direct control of him then. I just don't think Justice can be 100% to blame for the whole thing. Anders was there too lying and researching and doing his part to create the thing.

Modifié par Arquen, 24 août 2011 - 06:14 .

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

As far as the "whodunit" debate goes, I feel it's unfair to blame Justice for being what he is. (Which is a spirit driven to seek and deliver blind Justice in all situations, to hell with the consequences)
I think they have literally merged, and the consequence of that is that Justice has strengthened certain ideas, wants and emotions in Anders (i.e. Mage rebellion and anger.) like we concluded from Jennifer Helper's email a few months back (and a few hundred pages back) the closest RL equivalent of Ander's situation is bipolar disorder.
Personally, I blame Anders. I can't blame Justice for what he is.I also blame Nate for giving Justice the damn idea! <_<

[Nilfalasiel]

I understand very well that Justice isn't the sole problem in this situation. And I did like the character very much in Awakening. I don't hate him, I'm just extremely disappointed/frustrated by what he has done and become. According to the short story about Anders, it was Justice's idea to merge. Yes, Anders could and should have said no. But if the prime instigator of the idea is Justice, I can't just disregard that. I totally agree that a different solution should've been looked for, and in that respect, Anders is to blame for jumping into something he didn't quite fully comprehend or measure the consequences of. But at the end of the day, if Justice hadn't offered, I'm pretty sure Anders wouldn't have done anything like that on his own.

I don't blame Justice for "ruining" Anders: he wasn't exactly Mr Perfection in Awakening either. I blame Justice for having a f***ing BAD idea. As has been mentioned, he doesn't understand the subtleties of human behaviour pre-merger. He didn't understand them in Awakening either. Why does he think he has the authority, much less the capacity, to pass judgment--his own kind of absolute judgment--on something he can't grasp? Yes, that's what he is, but that's not what humans (and elves, and dwarves, etc.) are. And if he's going to be living among them, he's gotta howl with the wolves at least a little bit, so to speak.

Actually, if we're looking for "original" blame, it's the Countess' fault. She sent Justice into Kristoff's body, which is what began to warp him. And yes, Nate REALLY should have shut up. Still, I find it jarring that Justice is able to demand such high moral standards from everyone when he himself has been feeling things no spirit should (he mentions envy for Kristoff's life in Awakening). When something supposedly impartial like justice starts having double standards, you know things are on the downward slope.

As for whether Justice or Anders is to blame for the bomb, it depends. If you're on friendship, Anders stops fighting Justice, so the lines are more blurred. If you're on rivalry, Justice simply takes over because Anders isn't strong enough to fight anymore. To those saying that, if it was Justice's idea, he'd have done it earlier, that's not necessarily true if Anders was resisting it. Both on rivalry and friendship paths, he would probably prefer to look for different solutions first. It's just that, in the end, he doesn't see any other solutions. 

But again, if Justice hadn't been there in the first place, I would bet anything that Anders, on his own, would not have come up with an idea like that. And since it was Justice's idea to merge, well...what other math can I do? He should have left well enough alone. I know he didn't have oodles of other choices, and it's probably pretty horrible to be a hostless spirit in a world you can't interact with, but the fact remains that he had a terrible idea to solve his problem. He probably suffers in Anders' body too, I'm not denying that either, considering it actually turned him into a different entity. But that's what you get for not accounting for the difference between a dead host and a live, very angry one. Did he look for ways to go back to the Fade? Did he try to ask the Warden-Commander (or any other source) for help? Or was he looking for a way to stay in the mortal world?

Because once you cross that line...

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 24 août 2011 - 11:57 .

[Sialater]

Madriu034 wrote...


By: I-rina.

THAT is beautiful.

[LadyVaJedi]

That drawing is wow awesome.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

LadyVaJedi wrote...

That drawing is wow awesome.

Even I am in awe. He looks so deadly, so filled with  fury that is merciless...and he looks so goddamned hawt and smexy doing it.:wub:

[Heidenreich]

*walks in, licks the thread, and then goes to get coffeeeee*

[Arquen]

Nilfalasiel wrote...

I understand very well that Justice isn't the sole problem in this situation. And I did like the character very much in Awakening. I don't hate him, I'm just extremely disappointed/frustrated by what he has done and become. According to the short story about Anders, it was Justice's idea to merge. 

*snippity snip*

Because once you cross that line...

I don't think anyone meant to suggest that you in particular thought such things. You were just posting how Justice ends up getting the blame when literally it is pretty much equal footing. I pretty much agree with you there.

As for the "he would have done it sooner" - what I meant in my post was that if it was a constant battle with two very seperate entities then I think Justice would have been able to assume full control more often and sooner. I'm not placing all the blame on Anders either. Neither of them are faultless and neither of them are really victims of the other per say. I just dislike when people write Justice off so easily as "demonized spirit," and toss him to the side like a parasitic entity choking Anders with Vengeance and dissociation disorder. As said it is more akin to bipolar disorder littered with ups and downs than 2 actually seperate and unaware personalities. That's all I meant. That I think they are rather integrated in both rival path and friend path. Yet of course on rival path Anders is literally ripping himself apart trying to "fight" Justice. Yet how can one fight their own thoughts and feelings? It breaks him in the end.

As for who is to blame.. sure you can take it back to the countess, but that really doesn't say much because it was an accident. I doubt she wanted to send Justice to the mortal realm and truth be told that had never happened before. I can't blame Justice for being Justice either. Of course he is going to want his blind Justice. He wanted to free sir pounce-a-lot from the evil kitty overlord Anders who was keeping him as a slave for Maker's sakes. As stated his views always were very cut and dry. He doesn't take "moral" responsibility because he is a spirit not a human. He believes he can pass ultimate judgement and carry out Justice because that is what he was born to believe in and do. I agree he should "run with the wolves" a little as well. I think the anger and Vengeance part of the equation are what stops him from truly rationalizing things, however. Before he seemed to weigh possibilities, listen to both sides of the equation before making his assumptions and judgements. Now he is all about one goal, one focus, and that is much more like Vengeance than anything. I agree also that Justice is suffering as well.

It might have been Justice's idea to merge, but I don't believe it came from malevolent intentions. In fact I think Justice was probably of the mind that if he was gone he could not help Anders succeed in bringing Justice to the mages. He could not get Justice for them or for his "friend." He asks Anders if he has the courage to accept his help. I don't think because he was truly afraid to die or go back to the fade or whatever, but because he didn't want to leave things unfinished. It being a "bad" decision is still debateable. I don't know if it truly is, and it this point speculation about what ifs and what could have beens don't really matter. I think they both created the bomb. They both were at the core of it, and both of them are conflicted.

[hobbit of the shire]

berelinde wrote...
How tragic would it be to have a "separate Justice" DLC that ended with Anders as a turnip?

No Anders turnip!  Curse the Fade if that ever happened.  A DLC attempt (or even DA3?) at separating Justice and Anders would be awesome.  And maybe, a way for Anders to be exonerated for his crimes.... by reasons of insanity... err.. possession?   He'd have to be a pretty strong character and perhaps need some otherworldly help for that to happen (main goal of DLC?).  I still would really like Anders as a romanceable companion in his kitty-loving state.  Doom and gloom Anders just didn't do it for me, and it pained me to play through the game just to play his romance through, not that there was much of a romance imo in my playthrough.

Modifié par hobbit_of_the_shire, 24 août 2011 - 07:15 .

[berelinde]

Heidenreich wrote...

*walks in, licks the thread, and then goes to get coffeeeee*

That made me giggle insanely.Thanks for that!

[Pris81]

Arquen wrote...

Anders was the one studying the Tevinter books.

Now time for a probably newbie-ish question:
If Tevinter mages used slaves to perform blood mage rituals in order to grow more powerful, and Anders stands clearly against blood mage because it makes people afraid of all mages and gives reasons to the Chantry to rule over a mage's own freedom... ¿how can he still stand for the Tevinter thing? ¿Which part of "Tevinter magisters are blood mages" doesn't he understand? [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/andy.png[/smilie]

This is what irritates me from Anders in DA2. The rest is... tragedy. And I love it in a bittersweet way.

berelinde wrote...

Heidenreich wrote...

*walks in, licks the thread, and then goes to get coffeeeee*

That made me giggle insanely.Thanks for that!

Hope you're in a better mood and ready for the giggles'n'kittens again.

Modifié par Pris81, 24 août 2011 - 09:44 .

[LT123]

Does it ever say what Stroud's rank is? If he was the replacement Warden-Commander after the Warden left, he must have been demoted and not given the same rank elsewhere (Hahahahaha), since nobody calls him Commander. Carver even tells him what to do during his Act II appearance- "Stroud, we need to move." He seems too strict to let the other Wardens be that casual if he had an actual title. Maybe he's a senior warden like Riordan?

I think once I pick up Justice during this Awakening playthrough, I'll run around Amaranthine with him, Anders, and Nate to hear all the banter and to shake my fist at Nate.

@Pris81: I suspect Anders is so focused on the Circle mages' plight in the rest of Thedas that he doesn't even think about Tevinter. When Hawke gives him the Chantry amulet, he says something about never thinking about what it was like for mages there. Does he have any banters with Fenris about it? I'd be surprised if he doesn't.

Modifié par LT123, 24 août 2011 - 09:50 .

[Pris81]

LT123 wrote...

@Pris81: I suspect Anders is so focused on the Circle mages' plight in the rest of Thedas that he doesn't even think about Tevinter. When Hawke gives him the Chantry amulet, he says something about never thinking about what it was like for mages there. Does he have any banters with Fenris about it? I'd be surprised if he doesn't.

Hmm I think there are. And looks like that's the most important (and not for that less silly) reason for Fenris to hate Anders and vice versa.

Unfortunatelly I can't remember any banter without Spanglish miswritting it.

Modifié par Pris81, 24 août 2011 - 10:06 .

[Wulfram]

No one seemed to call Duncan "commander". I think first names is generally an accepted way of addressing any Warden, whatever their rank.

Unless they're a PC and their name isn't voice acted, anyway.

[Heidenreich]

berelinde wrote...

Heidenreich wrote...

*walks in, licks the thread, and then goes to get coffeeeee*

That made me giggle insanely.Thanks for that!

Anything for you, Berelinde!  

*shares her midnight snack*

[ReiSilver]

Pris81 wrote...

LT123 wrote...

@Pris81: I suspect Anders is so focused on the Circle mages' plight in the rest of Thedas that he doesn't even think about Tevinter. When Hawke gives him the Chantry amulet, he says something about never thinking about what it was like for mages there. Does he have any banters with Fenris about it? I'd be surprised if he doesn't.

Hmm I think there are. And looks like that's the most important (and not for that less silly) reason for Fenris to hate Anders and vice versa.

Unfortunatelly I can't remember any banter without Spanglish miswritting it.

I think they have one banter specifically about Tevinter mages, where Fenris is saying if Anders apprenticed to the right magister he would do well. Anders asks if there's a downside and Fenris tells him only if he has a problem with blood rituals. Anders kind of incredulously asks "So they all do that?"

I want to say Anders wouldn't approve of magisters, and certainly doesn't in the early acts, but by act three he thinks it's a fine thing to sell a companion out to one. And there's no denying that Tevinter has records and access to magic that the rest of Thedas doesn't, Wynne takes Shale there to see if there's a way to make her a dwarf again and I'm curious if we'll learn more in the next novel since Wynne is going to be in it.

[Haradmir]

ReiSilver wrote...

Pris81 wrote...

LT123 wrote...

@Pris81: I suspect Anders is so focused on the Circle mages' plight in the rest of Thedas that he doesn't even think about Tevinter. When Hawke gives him the Chantry amulet, he says something about never thinking about what it was like for mages there. Does he have any banters with Fenris about it? I'd be surprised if he doesn't.

Hmm I think there are. And looks like that's the most important (and not for that less silly) reason for Fenris to hate Anders and vice versa.

Unfortunatelly I can't remember any banter without Spanglish miswritting it.

I think they have one banter specifically about Tevinter mages, where Fenris is saying if Anders apprenticed to the right magister he would do well. Anders asks if there's a downside and Fenris tells him only if he has a problem with blood rituals. Anders kind of incredulously asks "So they all do that?"

I want to say Anders wouldn't approve of magisters, and certainly doesn't in the early acts, but by act three he thinks it's a fine thing to sell a companion out to one. And there's no denying that Tevinter has records and access to magic that the rest of Thedas doesn't, Wynne takes Shale there to see if there's a way to make her a dwarf again and I'm curious if we'll learn more in the next novel since Wynne is going to be in it.

This has probably been discussed before, but....

Why does he approve so readily, and treat it with amusement, when you hand Fenris over to Danarius? Is he just being a petty jerk, or is he at a point where he sees Fenris as someone who actively stands against him and the cause, against Justice, and therefore deserves being sold back into slavery? Although Fenris doesn't agree with Anders on the mage-templar issue, he hasn't actively worked against him or even acted on his opinions on that problem at that point in the game....

[ashyraine]

For those not in on the tumblr shenanigans I will just drop this little dose of crack here:

[Giggles_Manically]

Haradmir wrote...

ReiSilver wrote...

Pris81 wrote...

LT123 wrote...

@Pris81: I suspect Anders is so focused on the Circle mages' plight in the rest of Thedas that he doesn't even think about Tevinter. When Hawke gives him the Chantry amulet, he says something about never thinking about what it was like for mages there. Does he have any banters with Fenris about it? I'd be surprised if he doesn't.

Hmm I think there are. And looks like that's the most important (and not for that less silly) reason for Fenris to hate Anders and vice versa.

Unfortunatelly I can't remember any banter without Spanglish miswritting it.

I think they have one banter specifically about Tevinter mages, where Fenris is saying if Anders apprenticed to the right magister he would do well. Anders asks if there's a downside and Fenris tells him only if he has a problem with blood rituals. Anders kind of incredulously asks "So they all do that?"

I want to say Anders wouldn't approve of magisters, and certainly doesn't in the early acts, but by act three he thinks it's a fine thing to sell a companion out to one. And there's no denying that Tevinter has records and access to magic that the rest of Thedas doesn't, Wynne takes Shale there to see if there's a way to make her a dwarf again and I'm curious if we'll learn more in the next novel since Wynne is going to be in it.

This has probably been discussed before, but....

Why does he approve so readily, and treat it with amusement, when you hand Fenris over to Danarius? Is he just being a petty jerk, or is he at a point where he sees Fenris as someone who actively stands against him and the cause, against Justice, and therefore deserves being sold back into slavery? Although Fenris doesn't agree with Anders on the mage-templar issue, he hasn't actively worked against him or even acted on his opinions on that problem at that point in the game....

Its an all to common trait of rebels, and revoluntaries to view ANYONE who does not stand with them, as the enemy. 
Fenris clearly does not stand with him, so he is an enemy.

Anders and other rebels draw the world into us and them very easily.
Which is a VERY bad thing. 

[Sepewrath]

Looks like Anders had one hell of a panty raid.