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[KnightofPhoenix]

Heidenreich wrote...
Anders Isn't normally that kind of a jerk. Its only if Hawke[/i] is willing to hand Fenris back is Anders that much of a jerk. Thus, Hawke must [i]also be that much of a jerk.

Aka: If your Hawke is a dick who gives Fenris to Denarius, then that particular incarnation of Anders is also dick enough to enjoy it. On top of which, he just doesn't like Fenris by act 3. and by doesn't like, I mean wouldn't cry if he died and probably wouldn't heal him unless Hawke asked ;p

What?

So you are saying that Anders lacks so much backbone in that scenario, that he only becomes a jerk when Hawke is a jerk him/herself? So if Hawke is not a jerk, that means Anders is also not a jerk and suddenly realizes that doing otherwise would be jerky?

I don't get it.

Anders approving of Fenris being sold has nothing to do with Hawke. He wouldn't do it himself. But his enjoyement of it is part of what he is, not part of an alternate personality.

[Heidenreich]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Heidenreich wrote...
Anders Isn't normally that kind of a jerk. Its only if Hawke[/i] is willing to hand Fenris back is Anders that much of a jerk. Thus, Hawke must also be that much of a jerk.

Aka: If your Hawke is a dick who gives Fenris to Denarius, then that particular incarnation of Anders is also dick enough to enjoy it. On top of which, he just doesn't like Fenris by act 3. and by doesn't like, I mean wouldn't cry if he died and probably wouldn't heal him unless Hawke asked ;p

What?

So you are saying that Anders lacks so much backbone in that scenario, that he only becomes a jerk when Hawke is a jerk him/herself? So if Hawke is not a jerk, that means Anders is also not a jerk and suddenly realizes that doing otherwise would be jerky?

I don't get it.

Anders approving of Fenris being sold has nothing to do with Hawke. He wouldn't do it himself. But his enjoyement of it is part of what he is, not part of an alternate personality.

No, what I'm saying is, that the situation itself doesn't happen unless Hawke is the kind of Hawke to let it happen. Thus, by default we never get to witness that level of pettyness that Anders can sink to, and mayhaps because of it, Anders doesn't actually stoop to that level in the first place. Its a "If a tree falls in the woods" senario.  As in "If Hawke isn't the kind of Hawke that would turn Fenris in, would Anders truely be that petty? And if so, would we actually ever [i]see that side of him in the first place?"

[KnightofPhoenix]

Heidenreich wrote...
No, what I'm saying is, that the situation itself doesn't happen unless Hawke is the kind of Hawke to let it happen. Thus, by default we never get to witness that level of pettyness that Anders can sink to, and mayhaps because of it, Anders doesn't actually stoop to that level in the first place. Its a "If a tree falls in the woods" senario.  As in "If Hawke isn't the kind of Hawke that would turn Fenris in, would Anders truely be that petty? And if so, would we actually ever see that side of him in the first place?"

We should differentiate between in-game and out-game pov.
In-game, of course Hawke would not know this unless he / she does it him/herself. But we as players, when discussing Anders, can and should take that level of pettyness into consdieration as part of his character even if we did not witness it in our own pl.

Not sure if the distinction was made before, apologies if it was.

[Nilfalasiel]

Heidenreich wrote...

No, what I'm saying is, that the situation itself doesn't happen unless Hawke is the kind of Hawke to let it happen. Thus, by default we never get to witness that level of pettyness that Anders can sink to, and mayhaps because of it, Anders doesn't actually stoop to that level in the first place. Its a "If a tree falls in the woods" senario.  As in "If Hawke isn't the kind of Hawke that would turn Fenris in, would Anders truely be that petty? And if so, would we actually ever see that side of him in the first place?"

If Anders' personality is independent of Hawke (which is what KoP is saying), then yes. It doesn't matter what Hawke does or doesn't do: Anders is the kind of person that would be very happy if something unfortunate (like, oh...being returned to his former master?) were to happen to Fenris.

The situation doesn't happen if Hawke doesn't let it happen, so no, you're right, most people won't get to see this less-than-glorious facet of Anders. But the fact remains that he has the potential for it. Unless you consider that Anders' personality is intrinsically linked to Hawke's. In which case, if Hawke isn't cruel enough to return Fenris, then Anders isn't cruel enough to gloat over it. But I find that a little difficult to believe.

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 25 août 2011 - 11:12 .

[Heidenreich]

Nilfalasiel wrote...

Heidenreich wrote...

No, what I'm saying is, that the situation itself doesn't happen unless Hawke is the kind of Hawke to let it happen. Thus, by default we never get to witness that level of pettyness that Anders can sink to, and mayhaps because of it, Anders doesn't actually stoop to that level in the first place. Its a "If a tree falls in the woods" senario.  As in "If Hawke isn't the kind of Hawke that would turn Fenris in, would Anders truely be that petty? And if so, would we actually ever see that side of him in the first place?"

If Anders' personality is independent of Hawke (which is what KoP is saying), then yes. It doesn't matter what Hawke does or doesn't do: Anders is the kind of person that would be very happy if something unfortunate (like, oh...being returned to his former master?) were to happen to Fenris.

The situation doesn't happen if Hawke doesn't let it happen, so no, you're right, most people won't get to see this less-than-glorious facet of Anders. But the fact remains that he has the potential for it. Unless you consider that Anders' personality is intrinsically linked to Hawke's. In which case, if Hawke isn't cruel enough to return Fenris, then Anders isn't cruel enough to gloat over it. But I find that a little difficult to believe.

It's just a personal theory, really. I like the idea that Anders could potentially be that petty, but unless Hawke him(or her) self is also that petty... and I lost my thought, but i'm sure you all understand. 

[Haradmir]

Heidenreich wrote...

Nilfalasiel wrote...

Heidenreich wrote...

No, what I'm saying is, that the situation itself doesn't happen unless Hawke is the kind of Hawke to let it happen. Thus, by default we never get to witness that level of pettyness that Anders can sink to, and mayhaps because of it, Anders doesn't actually stoop to that level in the first place. Its a "If a tree falls in the woods" senario.  As in "If Hawke isn't the kind of Hawke that would turn Fenris in, would Anders truely be that petty? And if so, would we actually ever see that side of him in the first place?"

If Anders' personality is independent of Hawke (which is what KoP is saying), then yes. It doesn't matter what Hawke does or doesn't do: Anders is the kind of person that would be very happy if something unfortunate (like, oh...being returned to his former master?) were to happen to Fenris.

The situation doesn't happen if Hawke doesn't let it happen, so no, you're right, most people won't get to see this less-than-glorious facet of Anders. But the fact remains that he has the potential for it. Unless you consider that Anders' personality is intrinsically linked to Hawke's. In which case, if Hawke isn't cruel enough to return Fenris, then Anders isn't cruel enough to gloat over it. But I find that a little difficult to believe.

It's just a personal theory, really. I like the idea that Anders could potentially be that petty, but unless Hawke him(or her) self is also that petty... and I lost my thought, but i'm sure you all understand. 

No I think he may just be that petty. We've seen him make 'jokes' at not the most appropriate of times before.

I don't see how your companions' personalities would be affected by what sort of Hawke you're playing. What would happen to the Friendship-Rivalry system in the game, as we have it, if it did?

[River5]

Heidenreich wrote...

Nilfalasiel wrote...

Heidenreich wrote...

No, what I'm saying is, that the situation itself doesn't happen unless Hawke is the kind of Hawke to let it happen. Thus, by default we never get to witness that level of pettyness that Anders can sink to, and mayhaps because of it, Anders doesn't actually stoop to that level in the first place. Its a "If a tree falls in the woods" senario.  As in "If Hawke isn't the kind of Hawke that would turn Fenris in, would Anders truely be that petty? And if so, would we actually ever see that side of him in the first place?"

If Anders' personality is independent of Hawke (which is what KoP is saying), then yes. It doesn't matter what Hawke does or doesn't do: Anders is the kind of person that would be very happy if something unfortunate (like, oh...being returned to his former master?) were to happen to Fenris.

The situation doesn't happen if Hawke doesn't let it happen, so no, you're right, most people won't get to see this less-than-glorious facet of Anders. But the fact remains that he has the potential for it. Unless you consider that Anders' personality is intrinsically linked to Hawke's. In which case, if Hawke isn't cruel enough to return Fenris, then Anders isn't cruel enough to gloat over it. But I find that a little difficult to believe.

It's just a personal theory, really. I like the idea that Anders could potentially be that petty, but unless Hawke him(or her) self is also that petty... and I lost my thought, but i'm sure you all understand. 

Actually, Anders seems to be clay in Hawke's hands!  Lol!  His whole personality changes whether you are his friend, or his rival...

In one ending, after the Chantry incident, he will clearly state that "Vengeance took him over" and forced him to do it...  He'll completely reject Justice, call him a demon, and beg to be killed.

While on the other version, if you ask him if the spirit within forced his hand, he will deny it saying that Justice and himself are "one" now.  He'll feel regret for his victims and be willing to die to bring them justice, but he's not concerned about the damage that Justice and himself could do if allowed to live.

So, perhaps if Hawke is a complete bastard to his companions, then it's fair to assume that it would have a negative influence on Anders also, and allow a "darker" side of his personality to emerge (because he desperately wants Hawke's approval).

Whereas if Hawke is a compassionate, decent guy; then Anders won't become such a cruel/petty individual because he'll never have been influenced to become that way.

Same thing happens with Fenris.  He can become very sweet and open-minded...  Or a complete narrowminded psycho with a borderline personality disorder!  Lol!

[RPGmom28]

 I created this sig bar today and wanted to share it with this thread as I am also a fan. I used a screenshot from DA2 and Userbars.com to create it. It has also been uploaded to the Anders Admirers group.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

We should differentiate between in-game and out-game pov.
In-game, of course Hawke would not know this unless he / she does it him/herself. But we as players, when discussing Anders, can and should take that level of pettyness into consdieration as part of his character even if we did not witness it in our own pl.

Not sure if the distinction was made before, apologies if it was.

Selling Fenris back to Danarius for Anders amusement is only petty because the tight bastard of a Magister only gives you 5 gold soverigns for a slave whose total lyrium content is worth 10 times that. Seriously. You'd think the act of selling out a companion in that fashion would have netted better rewards. <_<

[berelinde]

RPGmom28 wrote...

 I created this sig bar today and wanted to share it with this thread as I am also a fan. I used a screenshot from DA2 and Userbars.com to create it. It has also been uploaded to the Anders Admirers group.

Sweet! I wonder if I can fit two sig bars in my sig without losing the shameless plug.

Do you mind if I link from your tinyurl thing or would you rather I DL'ed it and uploaded it somewhere myself?

Which reminds me, Fluffenstein would probably like due credit, too.

[Nilfalasiel]

berelinde wrote...

Sweet! I wonder if I can fit two sig bars in my sig without losing the shameless plug.

Unfortunately not  You can't fit 2 standard-size banners side by side in there. That's how I ended up having to make my own ones, just to make 'em fit. You could try trimming the "I stand with Anders" one, since it's not animated (and therefore easier to fit in).

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

You'd think the act of selling out a companion in that fashion would have netted better rewards.

Maybe it's the game's way of rubbing in the fact that Hawke is doing something horrible?

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 26 août 2011 - 01:00 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Selling Fenris back to Danarius for Anders amusement is only petty because the tight bastard of a Magister only gives you 5 gold soverigns for a slave whose total lyrium content is worth 10 times that. Seriously. You'd think the act of selling out a companion in that fashion would have netted better rewards. <_<

Danarius probably realized Hawke's IQ level and realized that throwing him 5 sovereigns is enough, he wouldn't know what he is giving up.

Yea, stuff like that makes Hawke annoying to play.

[Heidenreich]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Selling Fenris back to Danarius for Anders amusement is only petty because the tight bastard of a Magister only gives you 5 gold soverigns for a slave whose total lyrium content is worth 10 times that. Seriously. You'd think the act of selling out a companion in that fashion would have netted better rewards. <_<

Danarius probably realized Hawke's IQ level and realized that throwing him 5 sovereigns is enough, he wouldn't know what he is giving up.

Yea, stuff like that makes Hawke annoying to play.

... the sentence I had here was amazingly not make-sence-y. So, yea..

Disreguard


I need some coffee, or maybe some husband alone time. Or maybe some writing of fenris/tabris hot teims.. yess.. >.>

Modifié par Heidenreich, 26 août 2011 - 01:25 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Nilfalasiel wrote...


Maybe it's the game's way of rubbing in the fact that Hawke is doing something horrible?

The fact that it is a pretty scummy thing to do should be even more reason it should be profitable. because, in reality, that's usually how it works out. Selling out friends, especially important and valueable ones, should benefit the player in a way that makes it at least, a realistic choice for a more ruthless, self serving character.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Heidenreich wrote...

... the sentence I had here was amazingly not make-sence-y. So, yea..

Disreguard


I need some coffee, or maybe some husband alone time. Or maybe some writing of fenris/tabris hot teims.. yess.. >.>

*blinks*
....I am confused

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Danarius probably realized Hawke's IQ level and realized that throwing him 5 sovereigns is enough, he wouldn't know what he is giving up.

This actually seems likely.

Yea, stuff like that makes Hawke annoying to play.

I know. Stuff like this really limits the possibilities on how to play Hawke. Intelligence never seems to be a part of it. It's why even attempting to play a ruthless, coldblooded Hawke is a joke. Even the most bastard-esque Hawke I could imagine playing would not sell Fenris for a mere 5 soverigns, because bastard Hawke would know they should get 10 times that, plus maybe a nifty Tevinter artifact of decent power.

[RPGmom28]

berelinde wrote...

RPGmom28 wrote...

 I created this sig bar today and wanted to share it with this thread as I am also a fan. I used a screenshot from DA2 and Userbars.com to create it. It has also been uploaded to the Anders Admirers group.

Sweet! I wonder if I can fit two sig bars in my sig without losing the shameless plug.

Do you mind if I link from your tinyurl thing or would you rather I DL'ed it and uploaded it somewhere myself?

Which reminds me, Fluffenstein would probably like due credit, too.

I don't mind if you link directly. It's just fan fun. Is Fluffenstein the person who started that saying? I am so bad at keeping on the up and up on the boards. That line was going through my mind when I was making the sig and I didn't realize it was a coined phrase =P Anyway, sorry, creds to Fluffenstein if so!

[Heidenreich]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Heidenreich wrote...

... the sentence I had here was amazingly not make-sence-y. So, yea..

Disreguard


I need some coffee, or maybe some husband alone time. Or maybe some writing of fenris/tabris hot teims.. yess.. >.>

*blinks*
....I am confused

Don't worry, I was too. Basically I wrote something that was half gibberish, litterally, because I'm also running dungeons in WoW on my warlock AND watching a movie, and probably should have gone to bed an hour ago.. and, yea. I noticed it a moment or two later after I'd hit post and was all "... wtf is wrong with you".

[KnightofPhoenix]

Heidenreich wrote...
Don't worry, I was too. Basically I wrote something that was half gibberish, litterally, because I'm also running dungeons in WoW on my warlock AND watching a movie, and probably should have gone to bed an hour ago.. and, yea. I noticed it a moment or two later after I'd hit post and was all "... wtf is wrong with you".

Don't worry, I still like you

[Sepewrath]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Selling Fenris back to Danarius for Anders amusement is only petty because the tight bastard of a Magister only gives you 5 gold soverigns for a slave whose total lyrium content is worth 10 times that. Seriously. You'd think the act of selling out a companion in that fashion would have netted better rewards. <_<

Danarius probably realized Hawke's IQ level and realized that throwing him 5 sovereigns is enough, he wouldn't know what he is giving up.

Yea, stuff like that makes Hawke annoying to play.

lol come on, you obviously know its that way because its a video game and they cant give you 500 sovereign, becaue it would make no sense to ever keep Fenris. People complain about nonsensical things at times around here.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sepewrath wrote...
lol come on, you obviously know its that way because its a video game and they cant give you 500 sovereign, becaue it would make no sense to ever keep Fenris. People complain about nonsensical things at times around here.

Yes, because a video game couldn't have made it 20 sovereigns at least. Caladrius, if intimidated, could leave behind a larger sum of money for slaves that no where near have the same value as Fenris.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 août 2011 - 02:13 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Sepewrath wrote...

lol come on, you obviously know its that way because its a video game and they cant give you 500 sovereign, becaue it would make no sense to ever keep Fenris. People complain about nonsensical things at times around here.

I didn't say 500, I said 50. And something cool. It's a trade off. As much as I find Fenris bland and certainly a saleable companion, he is also a companion who is quite useful in combat more often than not. And for many others, he might even add to their story, more so than having all that cash on hand could do.

It's just finding an acceptable tradeoff. One where I can feel like a scumbag, but a scumbag who has been properly rewarded for doing so, instead of an easily robbed scumbag who can't even haggle their friends back into slavery.

[Heidenreich]

PuppyFlavour wrote...

Sepewrath wrote...


lol come on, you obviously know its that way because its a video game and they cant give you 500 sovereign, becaue it would make no sense to ever keep Fenris. 

I don't know about that. If you're trying to woo the guy, selling him back into slavery would pretty darn near top the list of "Dating Don'ts".

There is that

All in all its just an over all JERK move, and thus bring out the worst in Anders to witness it. It's actually a very telling sign of how degridated his personality is by that point in the game. While an Awakening Anders might have said the same, it would have been made in half-jest, much in the way he joked about the dieing templar when you first first meet him. That way, should the warden (or anyone, really) give him the ".. OMG WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU" look, he can laugh and then be all "uh sorry, bad joke."

But Act 3 Anders is so far beyond Awakening Anders that even his petty half-jokes are no longer half-joking, simply because he isn't able to joke anymore. He just doesn't even care if you give him the "wtf is wrong with you!" look, because if Hawke is willing to do the deed, he isn't expecting to get one from that department, and really.. Hawke's the only person in the whole world at that point who's oppinion of him still matters.

Thus my theory that the Jerkier Hawke is, the less inclined Anders is to be a nice guy. Yes, his personality is independant of Hawkes. Obviously. Yet, in some situations, Hawke's personality does play a roll. At least a bit. A more sarcastic, or more diplomatic Hawke wouldn't see some of the more pettier bits of Anders, simply because he would have no oportunity to really display them. That doesn't mean he's not capable, and he sure as heck can be oblivious to some of the things that slip out of his mouth.

But.. at the end of the day, if your Hawke isn't a utter dick (aka, willing to hand Fenris back to Denarius), then Anders isn't going to express the thought you(and I) know he's having in the back ot his head.



Is... that made more sense then the last time I tried to explain it, right? I hope so. I'm more awake now, at least

[YamiSnuffles]

I interrupt discussion to post some art. Mostly because I realized I haven't posted anything here in a while and that makes me sad. So have a silly commission: