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[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

DragonRacer wrote...


Also, on a completely random note, I had an Anders dream last night. For some reason, he was here in our plane of existence bumming around my house. I woke up in the middle of the night and padded into the kitchen to grab a glass of water and there was Anders -- with those Justice blue swirly eyes -- up at, like, 3am watching old reruns of "Law & Order". That whole "spirits never sleep" thing, I guess. I LOL'ed. Justice would TOTALLY watch that show.

 

You know, I could totally see Anders doing that, I'd probably be on the couch next to him, as I loved watching law and order. late at night, since I'm a nightbird myself and never sleep normal hours.

Would love to see Justice's comments and opinions of the show, especially as it goes into alot of very grey legal areas. Lol, the confusion.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
See, I don't see the Dalish elves' obsession with the past as quite as useless as you do. I think there is a HUGE amount of really important information about the world that was lost when the Dales were lost, and recovering that is bloody important just For Science! if for nothing else.

I don't think wanting to learn about the past is useless. I think being obsessed with it is not only useless, but dangerous. And this is something I know my own people do. They create a fantasy version of history as either opium to deal with their current situation, or to drive them to extremism thinking life is as simple as being able to recover the past just via belief.

I also think that the Dalish social system is a good one, and I wonder if the Dales and Elvhenan had societies similarly based on mutual support and a sense of extended family. Even in their current situation, it seems like life sucks less for the average Dalish elf than most people in Thedas. I think there is a lot to be learned about and from the Dalish, but I think that humans should be trying to learn it too.

That's typical of any tribal or nomadic society vs a settled one and nothing particularily Dalish. The former are always inclined towards egalitarianism as opposed to the latter. A wealthy society is almost axiomatically one with unequal distribution of wealth (the degree of inequality of course varies).

We have no indication on how the Dales functionned as a state. They could have kept some tribal values, but I doubt they kept that much of it.

As far as I am concerned, the elves are for all intents and purposes done after Tevinter sunk their complacent civilization. I am much mroe curious about the Tevinter Imperium, on which ruins all of Thedas is built. 

My take on the elven society is different.

I'd be fine if the truth of the matter was "the elves did something sinister and fell because of it," but I don't find that particularly innovative or non-cliche... it's pretty much the Warhammer elven story, and I've seen it a bunch of other places. The "ancient society that seems perfect but oh look, folly!" thing is just as much of a cliche as the whole "noble elves brought down by dirty humans" one... I'd rather not have either.

The story I like is this: prideful, stagnant, isolationist society brought down by younger, bolder society... learns from their defeat, holds on to their culture, and rebounds to join the world; fundamentally changed but still unique, and probably... better for it.

My favorite fantasy elves are pre-tolkien... though they're more what we'd now think of as faerie. Dunsany's The King of Elfland's Daughter is all about a bunch of humans who are obsessed with the magic of elfland (or faerie), and so demand of their king that he deliver them a magic lord. This... does not turn out quite as expected, naturally.

For me, the old Elvish society was interesting and peaceful seeming, but it was also not progressive or experimental. It was never going to change, advance, or make significant progress. Everything was slow and quiet, even death was just the decision not to come back from a journey. It's interesting, but is it something I really want to get back to? I'd say no. I am rather fond of the Elven gods when you compare them to the maker, but their time is likely done, and I'm trying to be at peace with that (still, I wouldn't say no to bringing them back, or going with Door number 3).

The story I'd like to see is more similar to one of Japan ("Is everything Japan to you, CGG?" "Shut up, I was an East Asian Studies major for like five years." "FIVE years?" "It's complicated! Leave me alone!") The elves' story has some parallels to that already, with the Elvhenan sakoku-ing itself off in response to foreign "pollution," and the Tevinter Empire using military might to force itself in again. Eventually, Japan used foreign influence to strengthen and modernize itself while still retaining a great deal of its fundamental culture.

Whatever the elves had and lost, I agree that there's no use in romanticizing it. But what the Dalish are now is fascinating to me, and probably better than what they ever were before... it's current Dalish culture that I find the most interesting (remember: the Dalish are named for the second country of the Elves, not the first.) I think that a society based on current Dalish culture, informed and empowered by ancient elven knowledge, could be a real fly in the ointment of medieval theocracy. The idea of a mutualist tribal society based around a previously advanced culture that may be inherently more technologically advanced than the surrounding societies (technologically = magically in this case) upjumping itself through scientific re-discovery and becoming a power capable of competing with the inherently inequal and bigoted "wealthy" societies that surround it tickles me quite pink.

Basically, I think couting the elves "out" too soon is a mistake. I think that Elvhenan and the Tevinter Imperium both have a lot to teach us, and that the Dalish are the best foundation we have upon which to potentially build a more egalitarian society in Thedas.

Also, the Dalish totally have the right idea about mages.

[Sialater]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Here we are on the cusp of 3,000, and I'm about to have to leave the internet behind for a day. Nooooooo.

You're safe.  We'll only hit 2100, not 3000.

[KnightofPhoenix]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
The story I'd like to see is more similar to one of Japan ("Is everything Japan to you, CGG?" "Shut up, I was an East Asian Studies major for like five years." "FIVE years?" "It's complicated! Leave me alone!") The elves' story has some parallels to that already, with the Elvhenan sakoku-ing itself off in response to foreign "pollution," and the Tevinter Empire using military might to force itself in again. Eventually, Japan used foreign influence to strengthen and modernize itself while still retaining a great deal of its fundamental culture.

Not sure I see that much pertinence to the compairsion. Japan was an established state, not a tribal confederation (which is what the Dalish are now at best). Japan never collapsed as a state after Tokugawa took power. It continued to evolve and modernize (well not that much before the Meiji restoration). The elves lost two states and are now nomadic clans. Them wanting to recreate another homeland would pretty much mean they have to take that land from humans. Furthermore, Japan did not lose its culture, it reformed it. Elves lost it and the gap between them being nomads and settled is centuries large.

Basically, I think couting the elves "out" too soon is a mistake. I think that Elvhenan and the Tevinter Imperium both have a lot to teach us, and that the Dalish are the best foundation we have upon which to potentially build a more egalitarian society in Thedas.

Yes, they have things to teach us and refusing to learn regardless of source is a failing. But I do not see them as the foundation for anything. A source of knowledge and instruments to be used, but not more than that.

I do not see the elves being capable of forging another state and if they do, it will eventually collapse again. The best they can hope for is adapt and build a new state with humans as citizens, not antagonize and kick humans out of a land that they would claim for their own. Unless there is an empty piece of land that is viable to become a state. And even then, I would find it unwise unless they have powerful human allies.

If you want to use Japan as an example, unless they have a USA to help them.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 septembre 2011 - 04:40 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

KoP, you gotta realize that most of my history is narrative and thematic metaphors, not direct analogues. Of course I don't see a direct equivalent, I was just delivering a general example of a culture whose seeming "defeat" and "pollution" ended up paying off in the long run... though yes, having a strong ally in the US was a huge part of their recovery.

I might be able to use some of the more stable African states, like Botswana, as something more directly analogous (a combination of Botswana and South Africa might work, especially considering the current state of elven apartheid), but I don't have quite the background required to speak intelligently about them, and I don't have the time today to do serious history research.

Now, yes, the Elves have a huge knowledge gap, but this is where the whole Fantasy world thing comes in handy: if there are actual gods and actual immortals and actual things that go on and on... there's hope. Flemeth seems to think the elves are valuable and can be relied upon, even if she thinks they give up too easily. If nothing else, Flemeth herself could be a source of some of what they've lost (which is why my Dalish Warden never kills her. You don't even pretend to kill anything that old, it only annoys them.) This is why I'm sort of neutral about Merrill and her mirror... it's a huge gamble, but an interesting one,

As for a "New Dales," I don't ever think anyone should form a racially segregated isolationist state... that's not anything I'm in favor of. An elven-lead state with a good relationship with both Dwarves and Humans, though? I can see that being viable, with the right allies. I can understand the desire to regain immortality, but I don't think that should be the focus... if you want it to be, perhaps send a small group of elven stalwarts to an island somewhere and see if it takes. I don't think it will, Immortality isn't actually that great of a long-term strategy, really.

Right now, though, there are only two entities that have shown themselves capable of long-term opposition to the Chantry: the Dalish and the Qunari. You can argue that the Chantry hasn't wiped out the Dalish simply because they don't care to, but I'd tend to disagree. The Dalish are a clear sign of just how limited the Chantry's reach is. I guess our fundamental disconnect is that I believe their current culture is a decent foundation for a society, and you don't. It all depends on alliances... are the Dalish capable of reaching out and adapting, lending their strength to others while still retaining their identity. I think that having a Dalish Warden who liked Alistair and made him king would go a long way toward starting up that spirit of learning and cooperation, especially since both the Dalish and Alistair are somewhat Chantry-and-Orlais oppositional. But that's my old song, and I'm going to keep singing it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I do not see the Dalish as a sign of Chantry limitation, at least not like the Qunari or Dwarves. They are tribal nomads, they are by their very nature, hard to influence by settled societies. Even settled societies that share the same language and some of the beliefs (refer to settled Arabs / bedouin relations).

The disconnect is that I do not see how a tribal culture is decent foundation due to things it by its very nature and structure has (egalitarian tendency). What matters is how they translate with the transition towards becoming a state. And I see no indication that the Dales were egalitarian, and even if they were, they proved themselves weak and stupid at the end.

I have no desire for an elven led state, nor have I the desire to kick humans out of lands they lived in for centuries to appease elves. The most I'd give them is something leaning towards equal citizenship in human polities, and a certain cultural autonomy. They are useful, as citizens. Not more than that for me.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 septembre 2011 - 05:27 .

[Wulfram]

Stupid maybe, but how were the Dales weak? They gave Orlais a right kicking.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Wulfram wrote...

Stupid maybe, but how were the Dales weak? They gave Orlais a right kicking.

Not having allies is a weakness, especially when you cannot hope to match your enemy if his allies come to bear. Them acting in such a fashion without concern for that weakness is stupidity.

[DragonRacer in Mourning]

Help me, Anders thread!

I planned on romancing Fenris on this pro-templar playthrough, then end up falling for Anders and rivalmancing him.

I seem to have screwed something up.

Had the Fenris romance. Did the "so, you're ending it" dialogue. Did some "bonding" on Night Terrors with Janders. Then, just did the "Dissent" quest. And... I have absolutely NO flirt options. On either the post-"Dissent" dialogue or the "Questioning Beliefs" for Anders. I've tried going through both dialogues as super-nice, too, just to be sure.

What did I do wrong? I didn't flirt with Anders at all during Act 1, but I didn't think I had to. Do I need to go back to the Fenris romance scene and pick the "breakup heart" icon and officially end the romance that way? Or was I supposed to flirt with Anders at least once in Act 1? Again, I had absolutely no flirt options here in Act 2 during any of my dialogues with Anders.

WTH? Why is rivalmancing him so hard? If I've got to go all the way back to Act 1 to correct this... *sobs into hands as this week has already sucked mightily, and this is the cherry on the top of the rivalmancing cake of crap*

[SurelyForth]

I think you have to flirt with him at some point in Act 2 before Dissent, or you don't trigger the romance.

[DragonRacer in Mourning]

SurelyForth wrote...

I think you have to flirt with him at some point in Act 2 before Dissent, or you don't trigger the romance.

Hmmm, crap. I don't recall if I had any flirt options during the "after the Deep Roads" convo with him. My best case scenario is to trigger the "Dissent" quest (which seems to override everything once it appears in your quest journal... even Justice in the Fade kept insisting, in Anders's normal voice, that I speak to him privately in his clinic whenever I clicked on him), then immediately talk to him again before actually going on it... that should trigger the Tevinter amulet gift I also have at the moment, which DOES have a flirt option (which proved utterly moot AFTER "Dissent" and "Questioning Beliefs" wrapped up). I'll try that tomorrow night and hope it works. I really had what seemed like a kind of cool, logical scenario for this rivalmance (bed Fenris; Fenris freaks out and "ends it" in Hawke's mind; Hawke does "Night Terrors" with Anders, Fenris, and Isabela and ends up realizing Janders, despite their bickering, is the last one left standing by her side; Hawke has a bit of a change of heart for Anders; causes her to help him on "Dissent" and manage to forgive Justice for his near-miss; leads to romance), so I'd prefer not to have to basically start most of the game over again.

[LT123]

The manifesto-reading on rivalmance is adorable.

Oh, Sarcastic Hawke. "You need to get out in the sun, not sit in this hovel writing your manifesto."

I'd forgotten I sent Feynriel to the Circle on that playthrough. Ouch.

[berelinde]

When I did my rivalmance PT, I wound up making Feynriel tranquil with Anders's full support. I made my PC botch the different challenges, upsetting Feynriel's mental state. At the end of it, Feynriel begged Hawke to kill him. When everybody went "OMG, you beast!" at the end of it, Anders was the one saying "Really, he asked for it. It's kinder, this way." It was sad, but I really wanted to hug Anders for coming to Jerkface!Hawke's defense.

[Heidenreich]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

*carries you off to somewhere, still thinking of ways to argue*

<3<3<3

[LT123]

berelinde wrote...

When I did my rivalmance PT, I wound up making Feynriel tranquil with Anders's full support. I made my PC botch the different challenges, upsetting Feynriel's mental state. At the end of it, Feynriel begged Hawke to kill him. When everybody went "OMG, you beast!" at the end of it, Anders was the one saying "Really, he asked for it. It's kinder, this way." It was sad, but I really wanted to hug Anders for coming to Jerkface!Hawke's defense.

Poor Feynriel. Every other time, I sent him off to Tevinter. I hope he doesn't turn to slave-owning and blood magic there.

Jerkface!Hawke, ha! Doesn't Anders also try to smooth over !Hawke being rude when you meet Merril if you pick the aggressive option? I think he says something like "I'm Anders. I'd say Hawke isn't usually like this, but he's really like this every day"? Or maybe it's just Carver who says something. Don't have a save far back enough to check.

[berelinde]

LT123 wrote...
Jerkface!Hawke, ha! Doesn't Anders also try to smooth over !Hawke being rude when you meet Merril if you pick the aggressive option? I think he says something like "I'm Anders. I'd say Hawke isn't usually like this, but he's really like this every day"? Or maybe it's just Carver who says something. Don't have a save far back enough to check.

You know, I have no idea. I've never actually been deliberately rude to Merrill, not even with Jerkface!Hawke. It's kind of like kicking puppies. But I would believe it, if it were the case. Unless the person in question is 1) a blood mage, 2) a demon, or 3) Fenris, Anders is generally very polite to people. He'll mouth off to Elthina and/or Meredith, but my Hawkes are usally more nasty to them even than Anders, so.

Edit: And yeah, I send Feynriel off to Tevinter in every other playthrough.

Modifié par berelinde, 02 septembre 2011 - 04:00 .

[Heidenreich]

PuppyFlavour wrote...

LT123 wrote...

Poor Feynriel. Every other time, I sent him off to Tevinter. I hope he doesn't turn to slave-owning and blood magic there.

Feynriel has a bit of an angst moment regarding the magisters and their EVIL! ways, so I think he is going to turn out just fine. If more-than-just-a-little creepily dream-stalking his love interest who looks like your mother with black hair and no eyebrows.

"Feynriel, my love!"

Hawke: What.

"Feynriel, he saved me!"

Hawke: ... he.. what?

"Can you take me to him?"

Hawke: ... I, uhm, no. He's uhm.. not, here. *scratches her head* What?

[DragonRacer in Mourning]

berelinde wrote...

When I did my rivalmance PT, I wound up making Feynriel tranquil with Anders's full support. I made my PC botch the different challenges, upsetting Feynriel's mental state. At the end of it, Feynriel begged Hawke to kill him. When everybody went "OMG, you beast!" at the end of it, Anders was the one saying "Really, he asked for it. It's kinder, this way." It was sad, but I really wanted to hug Anders for coming to Jerkface!Hawke's defense.

That's what I just did the other night and was entirely shocked when Anders backed me up to Feynriel's mother.

And then, as soon as we stepped outside her house, I received +10 rivalry and an angry glare from Anders seering into the back of my head, so... getting mixed signals here, Janders. LOL

Now, what equally shocked me was Fenris's response. Went to talk to him after he turned on me in the Fade and, after his apology, he actually said it was a sad thing that I'd tranquiled Feynriel and he hoped I'd made the choice with a heavy heart or something along those lines. Fenris. Actually not happy that I just made a powerful mage completely harmless. WTF? Who are you and what have you done with Mage Eater Fenris? LOL

Modifié par DragonRacer, 02 septembre 2011 - 11:28 .

[Heidenreich]

DragonRacer wrote...

berelinde wrote...

When I did my rivalmance PT, I wound up making Feynriel tranquil with Anders's full support. I made my PC botch the different challenges, upsetting Feynriel's mental state. At the end of it, Feynriel begged Hawke to kill him. When everybody went "OMG, you beast!" at the end of it, Anders was the one saying "Really, he asked for it. It's kinder, this way." It was sad, but I really wanted to hug Anders for coming to Jerkface!Hawke's defense.

That's what I just did the other night and was entirely shocked when Anders backed me up to Feynriel's mother.

And then, as soon as we stepped outside her house, I received +10 rivalry and an angry glare from Anders seering into the back of my head, so... getting mixed signals here, Janders. LOL

Now, what equally shocked me was Fenris's response. Went to talk to him after he turned on me in the Fade and, after his apology, he actually said it was a sad thing that I'd tranquiled Feynriel and he hoped I'd made the choice with a heavy heart or something along those lines. Fenris. Actually not happy that I just made a powerful mage completely harmless. WTF? Who are you and what have you done with Mage Eater Fenris? LOL

Suprisingly enough, Fenris isn't completely cold harted and anti-mage. He.. just doesn't want them to have all the freedoms of Tevinter, because it leads to badness. Feynriel's not a bad kid, and Fenris can clearly see that, especially if you take him into the fade. Lock him up in the circle where he can get proper training and not be a danger to society? Yes. Tranquil him just because you can? Not cool.


SEE HE'S NOT UNREASONABLE  This is why I lurve him soooo.

[Sialater]

Incoming art drop.  Not that it makes up for killing him or anything.


by Rabbitzoro


by Pyromaniac03


by I-rina

Modifié par Sialater, 02 septembre 2011 - 02:20 .

[Nilfalasiel]

Sialater wrote...


by Rabbitzoro

Particularly  this one. It's so intense.

[Sialater]

I love the eyes in that one.

[Heidenreich]

Dear Anders thread--




Sometimes, The Offspring remind me just how wonderful they are... and it fits our dear Anders well.

Staring At The Sun

Maybe life is like a ride on a freeway
Dodging bullets while you're trying to find your way
Everyone's around but no one does a damn thing
It brings me down, but I won't let them

If I seem bleak, well you'd be correct
And if I don't speak, it's cause I get disconnected
But I won't be burned by the reflection
Of the fire in your eyes

As you're staring at the sun (oh whoa oh oh)
As you're staring at the sun (oh whoa oh oh)
As you're staring at the sun (oh whoa oh oh)
As you're staring at the sun
As you're staring at the sun

When I ran I didn't feel like a runaway
When I escaped I didn't feel like I got away
There's more to living than only surviving
Maybe I'm not there, but I'm still trying

Though you hear me, I don't think that you relate
My will is something that you can't confiscate
So forgive me, but I won't be frustrated
By destruction in your eyes

As you're staring at the sun (oh whoa oh oh)
As you're staring at the sun (oh whoa oh oh)

When I ran I didn't feel like a runaway
When I escaped I didn't feel like I got away
There's more to living than only surviving
Maybe I'm not there, but I'm still trying

Though you hear me, I don't think that you relate
My will is something that you can't confiscate
So forgive me, but I won't be frustrated
By destruction in your eyes

As you're staring at the sun (oh whoa oh oh)
As you're staring at the sun (oh whoa oh oh)

Maybe life is like a ride on a freeway
Dodging bullets while you're trying to find your way
Everyone's around but no one does a damn thing
It brings me down, but I won't let them

If I seem bleak, well you'd be correct
And if I don't speak, it's cause I get disconnected
But I won't be burned by the reflection
Of the fire in your eyes

As you're staring at the sun (oh whoa oh oh)
As you're staring at the sun (oh whoa oh oh)
As you're staring at the sun (oh whoa oh oh)
As you're staring at the sun
As you're staring at the sun

Modifié par Heidenreich, 02 septembre 2011 - 04:34 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Nothin like coming into the Anders thread and getting aerial bombardment by cat-man fat art.:wub:

Come to think of it, if instead of waves of templar ninjas and Shaolin monk pirate mages, they just parachuted waves of kittens and nekkid Ander's pics, I would have enjoyed the combat alot more in DA2.:wub: